The actual problem with isekai

Say hello to "battle harems". Oh wait, it's "let's make a school club!". And before that, "alien girl falls from the sky". Some genres become popular and are beaten to death.

The problem with the new isekai genre is that everyone can publish his turd on the web.

alice in wonderland was an isekai and people still get the term wrong

Nah, previous genres were posted on narou too.
It's just that now more than ever they are being comicalized and even get anime.

Isekai:
>Robinson Crusoe
>Gulliver's Travels
>Brave New World
>Jack and the Beanstalk
>like half the greek tragedies I guess
>The Divine Comedy
>the actual life of Miura Anjin/William Addams
>Journey to the Center of the Earth
>actually just like half of Jules Verne, really

i don't really see why UchiMusume would be mistaken as isekai by anyone, like, i don't recall seeing anything "gamey" so far
the real issue with isekai is my more normie friend taking constant jabs at "x movie/series is an isekai" when they clearly are fucking NOT

does this count as an isekai? they're in a video game, but despite that lots of people are still calling it an isekai

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Retard user claimed it's isekai because they have adventurers and guilds

The only problem with isekai is the current deluge of otometrash and female protagonists. Still, all things considered it's easily one of the better remaining anime genres

motherfucker, but the guy i'm talking about says that Space Odissey is an isekai, i didn't even let him tell me why, i just told him to fuck off

People call it native isekai for a reason

No, just like .hack wasn't isekai.

who cares whether its technically an isekai, it hits 9/10 of the beats of an isekai and is similarly shit. konosuba is the only good isekai and thats because its a comedy

VR(if you can call it that for that example) adventures need their own spot, nobody ever called the Silver Guardian an isekai

The actual only problem with isekai is that it's a really shitty way to define a genre. That would be like if "boat stories" was a genre that people tried to use in practical terms because there was a surge of anime that take place on them. There would be people calling something with similar cliches that takes place on land "landed boat stories" and some douchebags thinking they're clever for pointing out that stories have had boats basically forever

I'm sorry.

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Because they have more teeth than IQ points?

The "actual problem with isekai" is that the concept in itself has no mileage.
Every "Isekai" starts out with Isekai tropes, the rules of the world and the circumstances of the characters are ascertained. This is where the major gimmicks and spins on the genre are done, and although there is lots of trash already being made here, some interesting concepts can be made.

At some point after or during the first major arc, all those elements are no longer fresh takes but are just part of the world - at that point, your Isekai is now just another fantasy story with the happenstance that one of your characters has a more relatable background than usual. At this point, the story and world have to stand up on their own legs just like any other honest fantasy story that didn't have Isekai elements would.
Of course, since Isekai is inherently a commercialised disposable gimmick, the writers have neither the talent nor the passion to actually do the leg work of constructing and maintaining a compelling fantasy story beyond a few volumes, and also lack the freedom that a less generic Isekai introduction might afford the writer.

Eventually those Isekai stories just run out of steam and vanish. The remaining lucrative exceptions that succeeded probably could have survived without their Isekai premise - once they get past the initial few volumes, almost none of the elements of the story actually demand the characters be from other worlds at that point, the conflicts and developments could work entirely within a regular fantasy story - Isekai is just the easy hook and a shortcut to self-insert protagonists.

Of course this is only a "problem" if you're looking for good stories. If you're a publisher looking to churn out books for bored japanese teenagers on bus journeys, Isekai is the perfect written-form genre that is designed for disposability and consumption. It's a front-loaded premise and if you need to sell new books all the time, Isekai is the ideal product.

>literally using a "hotdogs are sandwiches" argument

It's easy to define as isekai means "another world" and some individual is transported from their world to another world

they are though, what would make them not sandwiches?
thing is, the exact definition isnt important to anyone except people like you who are trying to win arguments. what do you actually accomplish by saying "nuh uh actually the character doesn't die to a truck and get transported to a new world so its not really an isekai!"?

is the flashpoint paradox an isekai then? how about fma 2003 (considering the ending)?

I never said it was hard to define, but the definition is superficial as fuck.

Star Trek: Voyager is a ship going isekai and then individuals from outside join that ship and experience isekai within the ship. It's double isekai.

Nah the problem is writing even with a shitty setting there are authors who make something decent out of it. But what we have here is literally stories from fanfiction.net or rather a site named shousetsuka ni narou: 'lets become a novelist'.
So it's no wonder you get a lot of amateurish stuff since this site is meant to be for beginner writers honing their skills but turned into a golden goose for publishers to harvest from.

That's all and there's literally nothing wrong otherwise.

We all experience literary isekai by immersing ourselves in other worlds. Life is an Isekai novel.

Isekai doesnt mean game mechanics as there are plenty without them. Isekai is just a word describing the POV moving permamently from a world to another. Its native isekai if the location doesnt get altered but world around MC changes

>Its native isekai

There's no such thing as "native isekai" i can't believe people are taking a deliberate troll term seriously. Good Lord.

I want to show Flip Flappers to these people and see if their head explodes.

Their shape, bread used, and main content. Retard. Just like wolves aren't dogs

It's either "another world" or it's the same world.

>There isnt such term
But there is now. Like space Isekai, isekai in space there is native isekai

fantasy that can be confused with isekai is called native isekai

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instead of calling them "another world" anime, maybe we should be calling them "spirited away to another world" animes.

But if we do that, then wouldn't Miyazaki be the very first Kamigakushi isekai?
Maybe anime was a mistake.

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>permanently
Not really. It's pretty common for people to go back at the end in the things that people associate the term with the strongest.

People that confuse fantasy with isekai are called native retards.

Native isekai chads vs the virgin deniers.

if mom isekai is not isekai then log horizon and overlord aren't isekai

You're either stupid or baiting AND stupid. By your defition then berserk is native isekai you gigantic stupid piece of walking shit. Fuck why are people so idiotic

If they spend 99% of their story time in the other world and can't go back until the end. Then the end doesn't matter

isekai has basically replaced fantasy. why write up an interesting setting with good plot when you can just be a hack and mix isekai + lolis + wish fulfillment mc into the pot and whatever garbage comes out is read/watched anyway.
Narou is synonymous with isekai. Other genres were never that big.
you have to be over 18 to post on Yea Forums.

Readers don't read fantasy, they only read Isekai. I saw some fantasy novels which MC is isekaied yet the contents after ch.1 is totally unrelated to reincarnation, just to put 'isekai' on its title. This is pathetic.

Even if I actually believed that the end doesn't matter there's still tons of stories that would be called isekai that have people freely going back and forth. Dog Days and Inuyasha are the first to come to mind, but there's a bunch that I don't care to list

>just be a hack and mix isekai + lolis + wish fulfillment mc into the pot and whatever garbage comes out is read/watched anyway.
All the isekai with lolis in it is actually the high quality one, though.

stupid tit-for-brains-senpai

Inuyasha is fucking time travel / fantasy. Holy fuck

Yeah this irks me. You have somewhat decent stories that would work just fine on its own, yet the author just has to shoehorn in the fact that the main character is actually a Japanese person who died and reincarnated into this new world. It's so fucking grating. Do nips HAVE to self insert that badly?

>Alice in Wonderland
>Narnia
Why those island-dwellers love Isekai?

so meat between bread wasn't the original sandwich? what's the shape? square? is the bread not allowed to be rounded, does it have to be sliced? want to define what kind of bread and fillings are allowed for me so i know in future?

also wolves aren't dogs, but dogs are arguably wolves. genetics is better defined than food categories so it's not a great argument anyway

Overlord would still be an isekai, since Satoru was transported to an actual fantasy world as his game character.

I think you skipped "urban fantasy demon slaying".

>implying being over 18 is how you enjoy isekai
the exact opposite true, the genre is a vehicle for bog standard fantasy and terrible writing with no redeeming features whatsoever

I actually miss battle harems desu. Wonder if I'll feel the same way about isekais down the road?

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>time travel / fantasy
Like medieval society with magic and monster but unrelated to the actual medieval society?

>the point
>your head

explain pls

>Like medieval society with magic and monster
Yes, that's why it's fantasy.

people label that isekai because at first glance it looks packed with all the known insufferable tropes.

If everything used devices like the reincarnation both in terms of reason for it and the resulting knowledge and thoughts of the MC as well as Youjo Senki did, literally no one would have a problem with isekai.
Your problem isn't reincarnation or self-insert, it's that, as you said yourself, it's poorly shoehorned, badly executed shit.

He's not calling you a retard for disliking isekai, since he literally shit on isekai in that very post. He's calling you a retard for your "we might as well call generic crappy fantasy isekai" shit.

Post a tropes in Narou/Isekai novel.

>God : Oops you're accidently dead but I'll send you to Isekai with cheat power
Or
>I worked in black company and I suddenly died because I worked too hard

Fantasy is fantasy; Native Isekai is Fantasy with RPG mechanics. It's a pretty straightforward distinction.

Fantasy:
Chaika
Slayers
Scrapped Princess

Native Isekai:
Hestia
Slime

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Slime is 100% isekai tho he got reincarnated.

Goblin Slayer doesn't have RPG Mechanics.
And your list is blatantly missing .hack if your definition was accurate, but then you'd actually have to pick a fight with people I guess.

>admits there is no isekai
>still calls it that because of videogames

can we admit that these people are just dumb as shit about anime or genres in general

The whole point of and isekai is transporting the main character to another world, if that condition is not met then it's not isekai, its not so hard.
In Danmachi Bell was born and raised in that world so it's fantasy. In Okaasan Online they are transported into another world so it's isekai, it doesn't matter what kind of world it is.

Where did the term "native isekai" even come from? It's the dumbest shit I've ever heard.

that wasnt my point though. danmachi is more than just genetic fantasy, it has the video game elements, harem and flawless hero tropes as well. if you just stuck an extra episode onto the start of it to make it a legit isekai it would still make perfect sense.

Pretty much. Vidya genres have been suffering from becoming meaningless because retards can't tell finer differences for years now.

Ah another retarded thread for retards that don't even read isekai

exploration and adventure. dont forget the British ruled the waves and sailing to the other side of the world was little different to being swept away to a fantasy land. it became part of our blood

>basically just admitting that he don't know about the series
Heh

>genetic fantasy
explain

Feel free to chime in the discussion instead of acting like an assbalsted child because people are shitting on something you like.

any anime with a magic system is then a native Isekai, naruto's charkra system makes it native Isekai then

everyone in the show is extremely attractive

So what happened was Goblin Slayer was getting a lot of pre-anime hype because people liked it a lot. This didn't sit well with the usual contrarians and since they know people were (are) sick of isekai at the time, they labelled it as a "native" isekai, something that 'has the tropes of isekai but doesn't have the protagonist from another world'. Naturally this as laughed at as "that's not isekai, that's just normal fantasy" but it was constantly spammed over and over during it's run that people think it's a real term to drive people off from liking it. Now they call any fantasy a native isekai even though that makes no fucking sense

At shit as 'niwaka' was, at least that was a slang term used for real people, not making up genres to troll people

That doesn't address the issue at all

sure, people that dont like things you like are just uninformed. i watched the entire first season and it was shit. i dont care if it gets better later, im not going to watch any more.

nice paradox, only retards read Isekai

it's just something to piss off goblin slayer fans.

These threads are usually anime only+normalfags parroting the same thing over and over again. You should've learned it by now.

I feel proud being one of the pioneers of the native isekai label.

1. Baiting this response
2. Wanting to claim they invented the term despite how stupid it is.

>first season
>while lacking even the basic information

try making sense you faggot

>Native Isekai is Fantasy with RPG mechanics
>Lodoss war is Native Fantasy not Native Isekai
what did he mean by this?

no it isn't. native iseaki means it has rpg features without having a mc moved in another world
rps such as leveling, stats, skills

it's isekai because I feel like it

Instead of strawmanning why don't you come up with an actual argument? What does anybody being an animeonly have to do with how garbage 99% of isekai stories are? Or are you one of those people who think LNs are the pinnacle of literature? Please say you aren't, my sides can't handle any more today.

ragnarok the animation and blade & soul anime adaptation are isekai then

So tell me about the suppose videogame mechanics of that series. All I know about is "stats" aka numbers written on their back which is just another way of powerlevel.

Anime looks pretty fantasy to me last I watched.

We need more reverse isekai until we hit a classic.

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>Goblin Slayer doesn't have RPG Mechanics
It literally does, except goblins suddenly were freed from them which is why they're causing so much shit
It's got Dragon Quest adventurer's guild and DND spells

in retrospect you could say so, they weren't before but since there's a new term to label them now you can call them "native iseaki" or whatever you prefer because they share common features with other new series

It came from the same people who brought you the "forced" family of memes. Analysis is hard; weasel words are easy.
Isekai to a lot of people has become synonymous with poorly done fantasy. It's a popular bandwagon to shit on anything isekai. But when they encounter a fantasy show that isn't technically isekai, they still want to post their epic and very original criticism of >isekai.
So they invent a term that is inherently nonsensical and therefore means whatever they want it to mean.

How new are you faggots to not even recognize that type of post for parrot threads?

this is as bad as trannies claiming crossdressers are transexual

>no argument
>just resorts to calling everyone newfags
Happens every time

iseaki doesn't mean rpg features though. there are plenty of true iseaki without anything like them.

you have being transported to another world & you have rpg features. just because both are common to lots of Isekai with both doesn't mean rpg features have anything to do with Isekai

I'm just saying the "local iseaki" thing just wants to mean that
I never use that term and I think it's really inaccurate

...if you want to be picky about it, "isekai" as a word just refers to a world that is not our own. So going by that raw definition, any story not taking place in our world or something that is supposed to be our world/universe is technically isekai, the origin of the protagonist or other characters appearing in the story have no influence in this what so ever. And it's not limited to fantasy settings either, it could be sci-fi or anything else for that matter, the only requirement is that it's not taking place in "our world".

It's rather just that "protagonist being transported from our world to another" being such a stupendously common trope in these stories that it's become strongly associated with the word.

It's a ritual posting newfag

It's simple really, 95% of isekais have the same copy paste formula geared for maximum market profit like most harem stories do to efficiently squeeze out the self-inserting paypigs who can't get enough of it.

Remember when isekai was about being trapped in another world and trying to find a way back home instead of just being pure wish fulfillment

so like sao vs your average overworked jap guy

so pokemon then

Then you faggots complain that going back home is no good

the pokemon anime actually has no +1 leveling thing

Isekai doesn't mean RPG features, it means having a MC moved to another world. Without the MC being transported to another world, it cannot be any form of Isekai. Nor are RPG features a requirement for isekai. Escaflowne, Magic Knight Rayearth, and Zero no Tsukaima are all isekai stories. Videogame or RPG mechanics are a separate thing of their own.

...

Retard, leave the magic world for your worthless earth life is the actual wish fulllfilment

It never stopped being about going home, what are you on about

I kind of have to agree. Escaflowne feels like a mecha fantasy and Inuyasha feels like a warring states feudal japan fantasy. One could be blissfully unaware of the terms and not even think they are in the same genre as Overlord or Sword Hero.

yes it did, they just didn't shout out "hey charmander you've reached level 12 good for you"

This isn't the thread.

This is just the usual faggot central. Ignore it user.

is that a new thing? because I don't remember any in the very first season

The levels are canon in the first season at least, the episode where they go to a pokemon school has a guy recite pidgey's moves by level.

SAO is unironically closer to classic 80s-90s isekai than most today. Which makes sense considering that it was written in like 2003 or so.

I think the main reason for this is that the audience has changed. Pre-modern fad isekai was just about using the "trapped in another world" thing in order to kick start an adventure and give the MC a goal to work towards, that being eventually going back home. The "cheats" weren't utter gamebreakers or ridiculously overpowered abilities, it was usually just a weapon or an artifact and sometimes they just didn't even really have anything like that at all. Sometimes all that happened was that they got a little bit tougher. In Monster Rancher literally all the MC has is his rollerskates.

The new isekai audience is all about people who have shit lives in the real world who want to desperately leave and go to another world where they're important and the best. It stopped really being about adventure but about just having a better life where you're basically just given everything. There's also the revenge isekai subgenre which is all about vicariously living out your revenge fantasies by taking action about people who wronged you and how justified you are because they're the bad guy. It's fantasy for a person not interested in a good story but desires a story where they can be more important than they actually are.

It stopped being about going back home the moment they get hit by trucks. So many of these series just have the MC just fucking die in the real world so that they can live in the newer one with no attachments to their past one.

Genres aren't based on "feelings" or "setting", it's a category. A show can be placed in multiple categories.

The male gender doesn't exist because you have a penis. It exists because there are other humans who also have a penis. It's not an individual identity. A genre distinguishing what a collective has in common and gives it a name.

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is this the one? article doesn't mention pidgey or anything, might be under a different name tho
>bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pokémon_Trainers'_School

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You're making it sound like isekai is the definitive reading experience and that it makes things better when it's still largely trash.

The best goal is to find a way home that can be used both ways and not be limited to just one world.

Isekai before SAO was so much fun

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Season one dude, episode 9 according to wikipedia.

Danmachi deserves to get called isekai because its basically the same shit

Says the faggot

You see, this is the fucking problem. I don't even like Danmachi but it's not a fucking isekai. It uses game tropes to it's detriment but it's just a dumbass fantasy

I was speaking from personal experience, honestly. Escaflowne was never really talked about as an isekai like we do now. I think one of the reasons why the term isekai has such a negative connotation and why a lot of people straight up say isekai are garbage is because isekai rely so heavily on video game elements for world building. Isekai as an excuse to have a relatable character in a fantasy world is fine if the world building is more natural.

What game tropes?

Danmachi is just a battle harem with RPG stats.

The only reason why it gets confused with isekai so much is because
1. Morons
2. Modern isekai takes a lot of cliches from battle harems

Aside from skills, levels and stats?

Is space jam an isekai?

There's no parallel world. So, it can't stand in the circle with the others.

Also, incredibly uninspired worldbuilding.

The biggest issue with all these shitty isekai stories and the stupid fantasy shit that people call isekai but really isn't, is that their settings are all basically interchangeable. These writers are literally not trying at all when they make their settings.

You can't for Western Films into Anime Genres anymore than you can force them into Musical Genres or any other medium.

japs love dragon quest nigga

Literally skills and stats

OP here, Yes, this is what I mean. Something that I should mention that is destroying fantasy in Japan as a genre is that they went from using fantasy as a base to tell a story to using the same JRPG tropes that are in regular isekai

Even in stuff that isn't isekai, if I see "stats" or "skills" mentioned anywhere I'm out

So just that?, cos those are basically just divine blessings, talents, special magic or a different version of it's over 9000 written in their back. I am curious cos you guys keep talking like people there fight via game mechanics.

you sure about that? just skipped most of the episode 10 seconds by 10 seconds and there's no pidgey or anything like that

It's funny to see the same shits all over again at first. Now it's just boring.
Threads always look like they are samefagging forever or stuck inside a loop.

>It's funny to see the same shits all over again at first.
Interesting how I could say the same about you

This is one of those rare times that a comment has actually left me amazed in its retardation.

Just look at the number of ips, hating on isekai has become a circlejerk on itself

Cope

>A battle harem with 2 dudes and a trans girl.

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>a trans girl
which chick has the dick?

the one that makes your penis the big penis

you know the one

based trap loli catgirl pack mule

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Sneed

Native Isekai refers to works literarily derived primarily through mimicking and parroting prior isekai works and tropes without actually utilizing an isekai setting.

You all know what the term means and what it refers to. Theres no problem with it.

I don't recognize terms made solely for trolling people

Isekais biggest problem is that it falls back on the same goddamn tropes rather than try something anything new. Here you have a concept thriving with possibility, you can do literally ANYTHING with the setup of 'ordinary schlub gets sucked into another dimension' and what do these hacks do? The same old bullshit every other author does.

>Medieval fantasy world with Orcs and Elves? Check
>Fantasy worlds magic is based on video games/tabletop RPGs? Check
>At least a half dozen girls for the main characters battle harem who all want to jump his snake? Check.
>Inappropriate creepy nudity/fanservice/fetish material? ALL the Checks.
>No addressing of the life the character used to live before he was sent to a fantasy world and ignoring the real world trauma someone in such a situation would feel? Check.

The sad fact is. It wasn't always like this. Back in the 90s there were a bunch of really good Isekai shows and Manga that bucked most of these trends and made works that have stood the test of time. Red River, Escaflowne, Inuyasha, 12 Kingdoms, Now And Then Here And There. All of them great shows (well cept Now and Then but it is at least worth watching once). Each of these shows did something different with the typical Isekai setup that modern shows and manga absolutely refuse to because they have to keep pandering to that stupid horny and lonesome otaku demographic.

>flawless hero
literal first 5 seconds of ep1 are MC about to get killed. MC loses most fights and fights he wins are often always pyrrhic.

isekai only means being transported to another world from your original one. this, amusingly enough would change quite alot with danmachi. maybe don't speedwatch next time.
isekai didn't exist before SAO retard
danmachi has pretty good worldbuilding on the contrary. it seems like you're letting your biases impact your view.
good bait senpai

these days "isekai" means "formulaic LN trash with vaguely fantasy elements", which it is

>isekai
>inuyasha
the biggest problem with isekai is it's audience is full of retards like you who think fantasy is isekai. time travel isn't isekai, user.

>The "cheats" weren't utter gamebreakers or ridiculously overpowered abilities,

My favorite was Mr Fujisawa from El Hazard. Dude get's the power to lift mountains and fight off entire armies. But only when he's sober. And he's a RAGING alcoholic.

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Anons would still call it cheat power nowadays, considering slightest bits of powerful offended some of them

the problem is entirely people flipping their shit over stuff that doesn't matter. you can just watch danmachi, goblin slayer or whatever and enjoy it will ignoring the retards who think it's isekai just because they don't even know what isekai means.

it's also bait meant for nothing else than getting a raise out of people.

Hold up, this got me thinking.
Since as you said, Isekai is just about the main character getting to another world, are classic space/sci-fi tropes isekai?
Is Lost in Space isekai?
Is Planet of the Apes?
Back to the Future?
Princess of Mars?
Samurai Jack?
Star Trek?
Jumanji?

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The old stuff was just basically straight fantasy with a protagonist from our world. They would be given a journey and forced to overcome trials that first emotional growth and maturity, They would over come personal short comings, learn valuable lessons and there was an actual story with an end goal layed out. Rayearth for example had the girls immediately tasked with their mission, have their adviser turned to stone in front of them and basically are left without any clue but whatever vague hints they can get from Makona. They witness hardship and tragedy and in the end are changed.

It's basic heroes journey stuff which is vital to the heroic fantasy genre. I don't mean to imply that it has to be followed to the letter but modern isekai or fantasy doesn't really seem to have any objective beyond coming up with a stand out premise that is ultimately shallow and superficial and sesing how many books or anime they can get out of it before they get cancelled in favor of the next fad.

The big problem is that in however many years all these disposable isekai or LN stories will just be forgettable dumpster fodder but the classics of the genre, series that told actual stories will remain classics.

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>Jumanji
yes
>Princess of Mars
>Lost in Space
>Star Trek
well its on mars/space and Isekai is typically parallel worlds not actual planets
>Planet of the Apes
>Back to the Future
time travel, not the same

you could argue that any 'stranger in a strange land' story has commonality with Isekai but its not the same

People sometimes don't realize that the tropes or genres themselves aren't really the problem. The problem is that low effort drivel gets published and even sells, as long as the, say, light novels have a decent illustrator. Isekai can be the basis for a great story and adventure, as long as the writer puts in effort to actually make a compelling world, characters and story. If the main characters get bestowed great powers, that's fine, not much different than some medieval farmboy getting told "you are the chosen one, go forth and slay evil with this magic sword", but it's the execution beyond the basic premise that counts.

>. time travel isn't isekai, user.

For all intents and purposes Inuyasha is Isekai. I dont think there were demons and monsters roaming around in the real Sengoku period. Same with Red River/Anatolia Story

Boat stories is a actual genre though.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus_and_Eurydice

No but like, does Isekai stop being Isekai if you can travel between the worlds?
If not, then I don't see why a time machine or a spaceship would change things, since the key is that the world they're in is greatly different to the one they know.
Case in point, if we're talking parallel worlds, then taking D&D cosmology as an example being sent to one of the material planes from another one would be like getting isekai'd, but at the same time there was Spelljammer which just said "Also, if you want you can build rad Treasure Planet tier spaceships with which you can travel to other material planes.

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I think the important difference is that the cheat power is or should be less a tool to auto win and more a way to even the playing field. John Carter would still get slapped around pretty hard, for example. The whole denser gravity = super powers was just a way to explain how he didn't get splattered.

They do if they want people to actually read their shit, the competition on narou is incredibly bloodthirsty and only the top 1% of the trash pile actually manage to get a reader-base big enough for a random publisher to pick them up.

Nobody is actually arguing whether Kaguya is an isekai

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This is the reason why I hate the Modern anime community.
>native isekai
how can people actually think that is a thing... it literally contradicts the meaning of ISEKAI.

>does Isekai stop being Isekai if you can travel between the worlds?
Gate the JSDF is in the ISekai genre despite characters being able to travel between worlds.

>I dont think there were demons and monsters roaming around in the real Sengoku period.
>Same with Red River/Anatolia Story
user, that's called fantasy.

But is it fantasy though? I think OP's talking out his ass. Just because some characters are drawn like chibi dwarves for effect, doesn't mean we're meant to believe that in this world people can turn into chibi dwarves. The narrator even points this out.

Escaflowne and fun don't belong in the same sentence, just because naroushit is shit doesn't suddenly make a show whose only redeeming parts were the mecha designs and the ost good.

>user, that's called fantasy.
Isekai is someone getting sucked into a fantasy world. These depictions of historical periods may as well be alternate universes, not the actual historic periods they were based on. Given the presence of Yokai in Inuyashas case and Sorcerors and Berserk style monsters in Anatolia storys case

>Isekai before SAO was so much fun
It was much better but it wasn't 'fun' it took itself seriously.

Look up Now And Then Here And There. AKA The most nightmarishly disturbing Isekai story ever made. Bar none. It's a better horror anime than most actual horror anime.

Reminder that people have been bitching about x destroying anime since the day the internet was born and it has never stopped being ridiculous.

>Alice in Wonderland
That wasn't isekai. That was a dream.
If Alice in Wonderland was really isekai, and all it takes is a girl going down a hole, then this is also isekai.

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does that mean this is an isekai because 3700 in the future, earth is practically a different planet?

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Nah, Now and then here and there is just a edgefest that keeps piling on the misery for no reason but to keep piling on the misery and then it just ends. Great show, wouldn't reccomend it to anyone besides people with suffering boners.

>it took itself seriously.

Okay? A story should take itself seriously. It doesn't have to be grimdark but if you want your audience to care about what's going on the story itself has to first. This is the kind of LOL SO IRONIC SELF AWARE bullshit is how the genre went to shit in the first place. It's nothing but the characters pointing out LOL GENRE TROPE!

big difference. for Made in Abyss, the Abyss is a central plot point and it's very clearly connected to the city. Whereas in Alice in Wonderlands case, we're not quite sure whether it was a dream or another world entirely.

>tfw they actually are
youtube.com/watch?v=IpyQl6JcL8U

only if the abyss exists only in her dream

The only real problem is saturation. Isekai, like amnesia, is just a writing tool to spew world building within in the context of the story.
All the other stuff, like harems and wish fulfilment mcs aren't inherent to isekai, they're just there because it's otaku anime

>Whereas in Alice in Wonderlands case, we're not quite sure whether it was a dream or another world entirely.
The book is unambiguously clear it was a dream. Lewis Carroll also confirmed it later.

Because it's time travel and part their universe.
Gates work because it's a different dimensional world.

>I-IT DOESN'T COUNT BECAUSE I LIKE IT AND I HAVE TO ADMIT ISEKAI ISN'T ALL BAD
Retard.

It's basically a depiction of what would ACTUALLY happen in a realistic Isekai scenario.

does that mean going outside is an isekai because it's completely different than the world i'm used to, which is cumming in my sock in my room?

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No, that much misery is in no way realistic, life sucks, bad shit happens, but no one's life is a unnending spiral of bad shit 24/7 unless god fucking hates them and is actively targeting them like some sort of heavenly tribulation from chink shit.

>Now And Then Here And There
>a realistic depiction of anything

Nope. Neither Slayers nor Lodoss War played the MMORPG thing. And fucking Lodoss War was based on a fucking D&D campaign, yet it's still clearly high fantasy as in Tolkien style.

Shit like Danmachi and Goblin Slayer, yes, we can see it's not isekai retard, but they still use retarded video-game, mainly MMOs troupes to get around. There is a harem, there is a fucking Adventurer's Guild everytime, and shit like that. Like isekai.

That's why we call them native isekai. Because even though they aren't isekai, they follow the same troupes EXCEPT the protagonist wasn't transported/reborn in "another world", he is a native there.

While stuff like, say, Berserk (god there really isn't any other Fantasy example right?) is Fantasy. Slayers comedy fantasy. Record of Lodoss war fantasy or the high fantasy subgenre. Berserk is specifically dark fantasy.

This new video game escapist fantasy shit is killing it

not our fault you retards are so dense can't get a joke

>No, that much misery is in no way realistic, life sucks, bad shit happens, but no one's life is a unnending spiral of bad shit 24/7

Clearly you've never been to Uganda. In fact the series was inspired by true life stories of the Liberian civil war.

Bugger off, limited mindlet.

uchimusume don't have videogame mechanics and people still call a isekai

Its revealed towards the end that the world of Hellywood is our world a billion years in the future. The suns gone red giant, and our species is going extinct and the only reason the species hasn't gone extinct is because of a genocidal madman who has his army rape people.

i'd say it's lot more real than you'd think. When people see existence as pointless, they would easily turn to such monstrous actions

then it isn't an isekai. not like it matters anyway, it only gets brought up by retards during these kind of threads.

>SAO is unironically closer to classic 80s-90s isekai than most today.

It unironically isn't. Confirmed for never watching or reading anything trom those periods.

>even though they aren't isekai
>still calls it isekai

>Adventurer's Guild is video game mechanics

shit have being in every fucking japanese fantasy since DQ3.this is not a video game mechanics but a fantasy trope, welcome to how japanese do fanatasy

>WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH IT DOESN'T COUNT
Kill yourself.

Miyazaki was a mistake.

was this isekai?

youtu.be/jUQrU8KUExU

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arguably its the tavern trope from D&D, which is where japan gets all its european fantasy tropes from

>Shit like Danmachi and Goblin Slayer, yes, we can see it's not isekai retard, but they still use retarded video-game, mainly MMOs troupes to get around. There is a harem, there is a fucking Adventurer's Guild everytime, and shit like that. Like isekai.
Not isekai, just fantasy with MMORPG mechanics, you dingus.

brainlet

And dolphin is a fish right you retard?

>tfw faggot Avatar killed the Guardian in the middle of his quest to wipe cull all isekai

>what are medieval guilds

With the exception of Alice in Wonderland, I am pretty sure none of those can be considered isekai. Nobody is dying and being reborn in another world. Nobody is even being transported to another world, at least not out of the blue. You could argue Divine Comedy, but that was more a spiritual adventure than a physical encounter. Robinson Crusoe was your standard shipwreck tale, and Gulliver's Travels was roughly the same, though the author meant for it to be the konosuba of the common writing style at the time.

>go collect 7 woods so i can give you the quest of horseshoe smithing

That's native isekai though

>merchant guilds didn't go collect anything
>mercenary guilds
>craft guilds

You are right that its a shitty way to define a genre since it really is just a premise, but modern isekai follows such a set formula it basically is a genre imo

When the fuck did I ever say that you raging idiot?

Not my fault you are a brainlet retard that can't understand shit.

...that's what I said, practically.

nothing like whatever the fuck is it on the shows. Definetely not a bar/place to get "party members" or do "quests". Retard.

Oh god, this idiot really unironically thinks the medieval ages were like an mmo.

>Slayers isn't an Isekai.
Gourry was from Japan, user. That's the whole reason he joins up with Lina.

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Yeap, Slayers is basically proto-isekai. Also: Dunbine, Escaflowe, El Hazard and more recently but before the SAO crazy: (dot)hack// and zero no tsuikama

>That's the whole reason he joins up with Lina.

Because he's from Japan?... I'm sorry, i don't get the reasoning. Didn't watch it.

yeah except after that he gains a skill previously unheard of that lets him break an already impressive record by a ridiculous margin, easily, and then gains an ability that can literally oneshot anything, which is incredibly convenient for the story
how are his wins pyrrhic? he beats that minotaur and levels up, breaking the previous record by like 80%, he kills that baby dragon or whatever with no consequences whatsoever, he kills the floor 18 superboss and is lauded by everyone.

What about tensei?

also where are my meikyuu black company. That was one based isekai that wasn't vidya fantasy at all

>army destroying abilities
>slightest bit of power

>taverns and bars didn't exist back then
>people didn't didn't go on jobs people payed them for aka quests
Hello retards, isekai haters are unironically the dumbest ones on Yea Forums

yes because genetics is equivalent to vague definitions like types of entertainment
how can someone be this retarded?

cause idiots dont know the difference between fantasy and isekai. isekai literally translates to "another world" meaning you are transported. i bet people who think that fantasy and isekai are the same would think lord of the rings is an isekai as well.

Fish is not a genetic category retard. Categories are built around certain key characteristic not overall similarity.

If Goblin Slayer fans could justify how the series isn't just like every other Isekai series with its rpg tropes, mc with the personality of a wet noodle but is ultra competent and the over inflated roster of attractive girls orbiting him, then it wouldn't be such an effective label.

The best they can do is claim the series can't be compared to Isekai because it has a different beginning yet the Isekai genre is so poorly written 99% of Isekai stories abandon any pretense of being about world hopping and instead become generic fantasy by the second season/volume anyway.

Goblin Slayer walks like an Isekai and quacks like an Isekai, don't get upset when people call it one.

>isekai didn't exist before SAO retard

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It doesn't count.

At what point in your made up history did Taverns and Bars change from job recruitment offices to places to get drunk with friends?

"Adventurer" shouldn't be a common day job. Adventurers should be seen as those autistic, possibly suicidal, weirdos that everyone wants to ignore while they keep their heads down and their subsistence farming life. It also makes your MC's feel less special when there's about 50 other jerks in the quest queue head of you.

Where's the personal stakes? Where's the independent goals? Why are all "adventurers basically day laborers who bum around a single central hub instead of being out their on their quests?

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I thought an isekai was just when an MC(s) was transported to a fantasy/game world. Apparently there are multiple definitions according to this thread. I wonder if YU-NO is an isekai even though it took the MC 16+ episodes to get to the fantasy world.

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The fact that its a contradiction its the fucking joke. People that are not completely retarded use it to refer to a fantasy story that use so many isekai like tropes that might as well be grouped with the shitty isekai in spite of it technically not being an isekai.

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There it is. "Isekai" doesn't need to have value beyond being less boring that just sitting still on a bus or train. It's a shortcut to character introduction, and runs on the fumes of the MC being a relatable fellow Japanese teenager who likes cute girls and delicious food, and doesn't want to expend any effort to get those things.

There's no problem with isekai -- it's literary fast food. The "problem" here is weird Westerners who read them and expect anything other than the most basic and easily digestible content possible.

So how long does this pointless argument have to keep up before people are allowed to actually discuss isekai series without getting the thread pruned?

>implying there was ever anything wrong with battle harems

get out and don't ever come back faggot

Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure

youtube.com/watch?v=FAGO4mLigk0

Obviously there was. The lack of battle rape as a tactic was bullshit simply due to how porn is perceived and treated in Japan. Imagine series like Slut Girl! were actually common weaving sex and actual story telling, only this time with fights.

Battle harem like Ikkitousen could have been even greater than they are today if they were allowed to explore the adult elements without limit and incorporate them into the story.

Ikki's big issue was it's genki retard MC. There where way cooler characters in that showb ut Japan loves their retard moe.

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if it's shit and has game mechanics it's isekai

it's fucking awful, so sure, whatever

Yea Forums related but is this isekai?

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>MTG anime is in the works
>bunch of planeswalker traveling/transported to different worlds
>it's also sword and magic fantasy
Isekai or fantasy or both?

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Considering their popularity Kanu and Ryofu should have been the MCs instead of Hakufu and her beta cousin. Shiryuu and Mou-chan would naturally be the immediate side-cast.

Isekai is type of fantasy.

I personally think goblin slayer is a masterpiece, better than berserk for sure (honest to god). And seeing an user calling it out as an isekai doesn't really bother me. In fact, anyone who actually read it won't get bothered at all really. You'll know after reading it, your heart will subconsciously think and say:
>oh, this isn't an isekai
No matter how much you want it to be an isekai.
Isekai isn't based on terms, or description, or needed some kind of criteria. You'll just know if things are isekai after reading it. But enough of that, here's the truth about native isekai.

Hey Yea Forums, what do you guys think about native isekai? It's an isekai, but the protag is a native in that world.

1. Something like berserk, claymore, stravaganza, ubel blatt were also considered native isekai by that OP
2. After each threads about native isekai, the definition of native isekai and "what considered" as native isekai also changes (not by OP, but by other anons) some user even made diagrams and charts about it.
3. While goblin slayer is indeed a masterpiece, it's still a piece of shit. Goblin slayer is the most native isekai out of any of that after all. So because how shitty goblin slayer is, I encourage all of you to read that shit (there's always a thread whenever a chapter were out) and shit on it because how many isekai troupe it had while being a native isekai genre. Protip: always read the chapter (recommend to read all the available chapter) so we can shit on it but doesn't look like we're shitting on it. Yes, that's how shitty goblin slayer is, and it deserves all the hate any person can gives. (also recommended buying the physical book, to further legitimize your shitting) really, fuck goblin slayer, it really is just shit with no substance that only got popular because of the isekai popularity.

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dumbest comment I've read this week, congrats

Don't you have to start in one world for it to be considered an isekai? Otherwise there is no other world.

Isekai needs the fantasy element as a condition, not just having a character transported to another world. It's why

>Planet of the Apes
>Princess of Mars
Are isekai, while
>Lost in Space
>Star Trek
Even if they are transported by similar means to "another world". Here "world" means "reality" more than an actual planet.

For the same reason,
>Samurai Jack
is an isekai while
>Back to the Future
is not.

>Jumanji
I've no idea why you'd even ask if Jumanji is an isekai, they don't even spend a third of the movie within the game. Unless you mean the sequel. I didn't watch that one.

IT WAS EARTH ALL ALONG YOU BOOB!

That is sad. So sad.

>how about fma 2003 (considering the ending)?
Calling a story an isekai because the MC goes to another world right after it ends would be like calling a war movie to a movie that ends with a declaration of war, or a murder mystery story to any novel that has a character murdered during the last chapter, even if no one even tries to solve the mystery.

At least they did isekai right. Also Alice in Wonderland, Narnia, etc.

No, because its all still one world just... not.

So no.

MANIACS.

If it's changed to the point of being unrecognizable, it's still isekai. It's still the Earth in Samurai Jack as well, and it's not the Earth in Star Trek.

>isekai didn't exist before SAO retard

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Technically the same universe, so not isekai, I guess.

Yeah, it's about strict similarities. It's like in video games, narrative puzzle games without arcade mechanics are called "adventure games" even if they don't feature a character going on an adventure because of ADVENTURE.EXE

right, i agree. thats why the definition for something cant be as simple as the definition of the words used. isekai is more than just "character gets transported to another world", and i would argue theres enough in common with the average isekai and something like danmachi that it might as well be counted

>Samurai Jack
But he always lived in a fantasy world, Aku existed back on his time. Time travel is very tricky to qualify as an isekai, since ussually it's the same reality, even though there can be differences between the original and new timelines, they're still inside the possibilities of the main reality. Inuyasha, which relies on time travel, is an isekai because the past that Kagome visits it's not remotely close to Japan's actual historical past, while the present she comes from is suppossed to be modern Japan.

When Goblin Slayer was about to air or actually airing, some very autistic user got mad at something in a thread and made a threat to spam and lower the quality of threads just because it was fun. The result was "native isekai". This was spammed everyday in the infamous isekai general threads and also in goblin slayer threads always together with images of goblin slayer or a retarded pie chart.

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But the future Jack gets to is completely unrecognizable from his own world. Same as Inu Yasha or Planet of the Apes. It doesn't matter that muchf it's possible within the same reality as the character's need to adjust his perception and way of life to everything in it.
Princess of Mars is just a guy transported to another planet in the solar system and is an isekai, while The Time Machine is not, simply by the fact that the means to leave that world are (relatively) easy to access.

So you say that isekai is like a light snacks in written form.

I don't know what's the strict definition of isekai, if it's written anywhere, but I don't think that something could be considered isekai if the catalyst of the story isn't throwing a character from our reality (or a mundane reality basically indistinguishable from ours) to a fantasy world (a world mostly disconnected of our real world), and at least paying lip service to how the MC adapts to that new reality of wonder. Also, the MC is completely mundane in our world, but somehow special in the other world, that applies to both modern Isekai and stories like Narnia, Alice in Wonderland or Wizard of Oz, and even old anime like Escaflowne, Inuyasha or Magic Knight Rayearth that qualify as isekai, though I don't know if that's wish fullfillment or just the fact that you kinda have to make the MC relevant somehow and make up big stakes because the world is totally disconnected of our world, instead of having the MC just becoming a whore until his death.

No you absolute retard Native Isekai is short time-travel scenarios.

one of those light snacks that cause diabetes and cancer

i can see that angle, but i think when you're criticising isekai tropes and almost all of them show up in a similar show that just happens to not have that element, theres no value in separating them

It's not. Like SAO wasn't isekai.
It would be like calling Matrix isekai because machines have everybody pluged into the simulation.
In all 3 scenarios the characters never leave their own world which is a requirement for something to be Isekai.

Say take Overlord for example, that is an isekai because the character is transported from his world to another, generic fantasy one, through unknown means as the character of a video game he played.
If he was however stuck inside the video game he played as his own character then it would not be isekai as he would still be in his own world, it would be merely entrapment, if that is a genre at all.

That makes sense, what I was arguing was not calling a story an isekai just because a character goes to a parallel world at some point, like saying that Part 7 of Jojo is isekai because the main villain just brings alternate counterparts of every character all the time. It has to be central to the story. As for the story having all the beats but the reincarnated MC, well, most modern isekai MCs just totally forget about the real world after chapter 2, the ones that got transported by dying can't even think of going back, but no one tries to go back anyway, so the real world gets totally forgotten anyway, you might as well dispose of it from the beggining.

Speaking of that, was isekai a thing before the boom we're seeing right now? I mean, I know that there were stories about normal MCs going to a fantasy world, some of them even older than anime, but was having a MC transported to another world a thing that people observed as part of a genre? Did someone call Narnia the British equivalent of Isekai at some point?

>most modern isekai MCs just totally forget about the real world after chapter 2
yeah exactly my point as well. this is why i see danmachi as basically an isekai, because add in like one chapter at the start where he does get transported and not much of the story changes. you get the occasional bit of backstory where its like "oh he was a sad boi who couldnt join any familias" but you can just replace that with an isekai jump and nothing else changes at all.

i dont think the term is that old, at least id never heard it before the last couple of years. even when SAO was popular i never heard the term until more shows started copying the formula. things kinda just become genres if enough people copycat shit. i bet the first ever scary movie was unique until people copied it and it become known as Horror

The setting uses a multiverse, though.

I swear it was like one guy and then a bunch of retards started buying into his retarded forced meme.

So Rosetta is the new harem member right?

The only real problem with isekai are the MC, who generally are self inserting characters for japanese pepople, for a western consumer is a obstacle to self insertion, sometimes i found them annoying as fuck but a I am a gaijin what consuming japanesese shit , I have no right to say it

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>tfw discussion about isekai series is pruned but whining about isekai and retarded memes are allowed

In SAO they do leave their world. Not physically, but their minds do and cannot go back. In A Princess of Mars, John Carter's body never leaves Earth, IIRC.

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I would call SAO an isekai because functionally it's the same as many others but with a different explanation, but I wouldn't call GGO one because they can freely enter/exit and the game is treated more like it's just a video game that the characters play

any interesting isekai you came across?

I wouldn't even recommend isekai to my worst enemy

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Arifureta is one of the best isekai

discuss?

Both so true.

>call SAO an isekai
SAO has the ALO arc, so no, it shouldn't be called an isekai.

You fucked up that meme

Can't be an isekai. There's two males on the front cover.

I agree the blatant use of video game mechanics are the laziest fucking shit, but I think the biggerest problem with isekai is how many authors seem to be writing off the exact same template that their editor at the publishing company foisted onto them.
Like, just how the fuck can you look around and see like 10 isekai all debut at the same time, all starring virtually the same characters with the same premise and the same interactions, and think it's organic? What happens is they all mush together into a big lump of shit which all start with "isekai" something-something and you can't view any of it as its own distinct series because it's so samey. Only a few authors seem able to jump out of the heap and establish their work as distinctive enough to get popular--or at least distinctive enough that you can remember that one. Like, Maou-sama may not be popular or anything but damn does Tommy Wiseau stand out amongst the backdrop of generic-as-fuck highschool protags.
I miss real fantasy, back when it might've been based on vidya gaemz but at least they TRIED to not use fucking video game terminology and skill systems to handwave how they couldn't be bothered to try to write better.

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wait, what, Tommy Wiseau?

>Maou-sama
Are we talking Hataraku Maou-sama? Or a different series?
Because it's only technically isekai if the protagonist is from another world and comes to ours.

>Isekai needs the fantasy element as a condition, not just having a character transported to another world
Nope, there are isekai without fantasy worlds, reverse isekai too.
>Planet of the Apes
>Princess of Mars
Nope, still on the same planet and universe.
>Lost in Space
>Samurai Jack
>Back to the Future
Time travel, not isekai.

>reverse isekai
Imagine being this retarded.

Calling SAO an isekai is like saying that Holodeck episodes are the same as Mirror Universe episodes in Star Trek.

I feel like a lot of modern isekai don't have a defined endpoint anymore. It's no longer about trying to achieve a specific goal like
>go home
>collect all the pieces of the magic stone
>stop the dragonlord from conquering the kingdom
it's just a guy showing up in another world and then fucking around with adventurer guild shit and no defined goal like isekai smartphone, Isekai Maou, or Tensei Slime
Shit if the protagonist has no goal to work towards and a motivation that makes sense, and if the story has no clear villain for us to understand and understand, why are we supposed to give a fuck?

>newfags complaining about their first anime trend
Cute.

>dying
Now you're just making stuff up.

Narnia is just as shit as modern isekai anime though.

Are there any decent isekais without video game mechanics? I'm so sick of the statscreen meme.

Rayearth. Escaflowne. You got to go far back to find them.

Fushigi Yugi, Digimon, Spirited Away

I'm still of the opinion that it's just one guy.

>It's got Dragon Quest adventurer's guild and DND spells
So it's bog standard fantasy.

Kill yourself.

Wish There was an isekai that was GATE but not complete shit. Closest I could find was this book, but I want some fantasy vs modern military that doesn't turn into haremshit within the first hour.

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>In Okaasan Online they are transported into another world so it's isekai
Video game series are not isekai, they're just experiencing a very advanced illusion.

>Red River
And it's a fucking shoujo manga as well.

>Of course this is only a "problem" if you're looking for good stories. If you're a publisher looking to churn out books for bored japanese teenagers on bus journeys, Isekai is the perfect written-form genre that is designed for disposability and consumption. It's a front-loaded premise and if you need to sell new books all the time, Isekai is the ideal product.
So we should instead consider isekai to be similar to "teen fiction" and hold it to the same disdain.

The goal seems to be to become even more special and broken than when they got to fantasyland, and possibly buy sex slaves. The same goal than an rpg grinding game.

Bullshit. If I had a nickel for every "Sorry mc, you died in a tragic/embarrassing/heroic/mistaken way. Here's another fucked up world. Take your op power sword/ magic spells/ ability to undress girls/ ability to see the description of anything you look at/ ability to call forth stupid amounts of whatever you are trying to do/ etc and unfuck it", you'd see my face on covers of Forbes.

in the first chapter, the government lady pushes some buttons on a totally normal pc and the guy dissappears, and while I haven't watched more than one episode, do they ever leave the game?

This guy gets it.

>Stuff like Berserk
You mean the one with the actual two worlds, an OP MC, the retarded OP sword, the literal plot armor, the RPG party and the harem?

Who's up for some Monster Hunter isekai?

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Youjo Senki is a bit different tho, in that the reincarnation is still a central part of the plot much later in the story. "Tanya" never forgets who he really is, whereas many of these isekai'd fucks just become fantasy characters with zero recollection or care of their original life.

Based

The problem with this is that by the time you get to the end you are so invested in character relationships that you don't actually want the main character to go home anymore