Is just me or Dragonball is just really shitty? There is no strategy or unique powers in the fights, everything is just power lvl bullshit and the power lvls are completelly inconsistent. There is no skill in the fights, just brute punches and generic energy blasts.
Also there is no message, no theme, no changes in the world, fucking nothing unique, there is no substance at all, is just the same brainless brawl over and over written by a guy that know nothing of martial arts or fighting.
There's a reason only spic monkeys and niggers like it
It's subpar but it set the tone for shonen so its excused.
Dont look to prime shonen for good story-telling, OP.
After the Majinn Buu arc I completely fell the fuck off and only came back for the movies.
Dragonball during the kid Goku days were great. Martial arts and adventure. I even liked the saiyan and frieza saga. Hated everything after.
>Is just me or Dragonball is just really shitty?
That's right.
It's why only spics and black people like it.
Dragonball is very good but it definitely has issues. There's a lot to love about it but you can see Toriyama just making up shit as he went along.
You either watched the shitty anime or are a retard unable to see how good Toriyama is as an artist
Same. Tried watching some of Super and it was god awful. Beerus movie was decent, Freeza movie was dreadful and the Broly movie was surprisingly good. It was cool seeing Dragonball in cinema at least.
Holy shit just from this post i can tell you've never read or watched db and only repeat what your favorite anime e-celebs say about it
Hiatus x Hiatusfags pls go.
Not everything needs to be the author jerking himself off with grade schooler's philosophy and inner monologue to be good.
I don't get it, what is so good about Dragonball then? Because other similar mainstream animes like One Piece, Naruto,Saint Seyia and Hunter x Hunter and Bleach do everything they do but better and more developed.
Read the manga.
I did and it's subpar to modern shonen. It was original however, which is the positive
The fact you think people are talking about Hunter x Hunter the second anybody speaks ill of blessed scream-anime's quality and talks on quality fiction shows how much Hunterchads live rent free inside your head you big fagola.
None of the guys you posted can even begin to compare with Toriyama as an artist. "More developed" usually means "bloated with shonen exposition trash instead of straight to the point and efficient".
I thought we were talking about writing here, not art
>straight to the point and efficient
You mean shallow and bland?
Art complements writing though. Writing is conveyed through storyboarding, and Toriyama is very, very good at storyboarding. This might be what made him so popular in the first place.
You have to try to be deep in order to be shallow. DB is a goofy martial art manga and it excels exactly at this.
>subpar to modern shonen
Fuck no. I'd take DB any day over MHA and Yaiba
ITT: seething boomers. Face it grandpa, Dragonball is shit.
You wouldn't know what makes a manga good to save your life, retard. There's legitimate criticism (and praise) to make about Dragon Ball. None of it is in this thread.
>DB is a goofy martial art manga and it excels exactly at this.
Sure, but this also means it can never be more than that. It will always be shallow compared to Naruto, and One piece. Even fuckinng Bleach kek
MHA is awful i agree. My brain is stuck in 2013 and i think Naruto is modern
Are you implying fucking Naruto is deep, or that the shonenshit exposition/dialogues has any value over simplicity and style? That's what a teenager would say.
>Are you implying fucking Naruto is deep
Compared to DB? YES
Checks out.
>”DB is pretty shit, dude.”
>”n-no you just don’t understand Toriyama’s masterpiece!!!”
>”ok what’s so good about it, then?”
>”i-t’s a gag manga! It’s supposed to be shitty!”
OP is clearly talking about the anime, not the manga. And his criticisms are more than legitimate. Dragonball turned to shot when its tone shifted from goofy martial arts adventure loosely based on journey to the west to what it became during the freeza arc.
The entirety of Naruto's world is pants on head retarded. All this exposition and worldbuilding only lead to trash writing.
Soft writing/worldbuilding is better than shitty writing/worldbuilding. The latter actively makes everything worse.
Not that you should have to "write serious stuff" to be good, mind you. Different stories try different things. What you have to do is excel at what you set out to do, which Dragon Ball does, where Naruto absolutely fails at.
Freeza arc was still great. The tone shift was already initiated back then with Taopaipai and Piccolo (one of the most brutal arcs in the manga)
The Cell arc though? A huge mess. Buu was a mess too but a fun one at least.
>OP is clearly talking about the anime, not the manga
Then he'd be right, the anime is trash but that's pretty much everything made by Toei.
Yep, Dragon Ball is shit. Its amusing seeing these white incels trying to say only minorities like DB when they going to every DBS thread themselves.
It's the most raw shonen. Just a bunch of guys and aliens throwing punches kicks and energy blasts at each other. It's incredibly basic and shallow, which is why it's the perfect normalfag anime. After an 8h shift, all a wageslave wants is the most basic entertainment to waste the hours until having to go to sleep. And DBZ is perfect for that.
Freeza arc is one of the most iconic shounen arcs of all time tho?, goofy gag manga db is good, i'd even argue better but there's clearly a reason why the z portion of the story is so remembered even to this day
it's kinda weird to say that DB excels at being something banal/goofy. imo hardly a laudable attribute to be good at being a joke in the case of a primarily action and martial arts franchise?
what do you mean by 'efficient'? in the sense that DB is highly linear and serialised i suppose it's true, but saying DB's strength is that it can be easily appreciated as a product, something machinic which has to be produced, consumed 'efficiently' and relegated to the artistic trash heap isnt exactly a positive
this way of appreciating stuff perplexes me sometimes. if dragonball made no attempt to be deep, wouldn't it make more sense to make every panel/episode a complete filler, no? all characterisation and themes 'deepen' a story, even the character designs exploit and reshape pre-existing tropes to make certain people look good and others bad. it just happens that DB doesn't exactly offer a nuanced handling of the ideas presented (confidence/overconfidence, penance/redemption, good/evil, etc).
i don't get it, really dedicated DB haters go to these threads precisely because they DON'T like the franchise
Dragon Ball Z in particular suffers from an identity crisis. DB Super is exactly what you've said, it's a mindless power level wank fest where the main character just fights for contrived reasons. Original Dragon Ball was a comedy manga with influence from earlier kung fu/karate manga, so it had a lot of action in it, but never took the action too seriously.
Dragon Ball Z sits weirdly in the middle, and I think the musical score is emblematic of this. DBZ has this really obvious, 70s/80s Chinese martial arts movie inspired score. Lots of saxophones and other brass instrumentation, prolific use of woodwinds, and musical stingers made from steel drums/chimes/cymbals. It's a good score, but totally inappropriate for the material. The American DBZ dub would entirely replace it with an odd synth metal score, partially for marketing reasons, but also because it genuinely is more appropriate for the material, even if it's worse on an objective level. That's what DBZ is, it's not quite a shounen comedy, it's not quite a shounen action series, it's not quite a martial arts series. A whole lot of not quites adds up to a big lot of nothing as the series casually discards plot points and character arcs for the sake of convenience. Dragon Ball Super is dumb, but at least it's consistently dumb. DBZ on the other hand is content to give characters entire arcs only to toss them away like they never mattered.
I never said banal. Goofy? It kinda is. Martial arts manga? Definitely. You don't need more than that.
>what do you mean by 'efficient'? in the sense that DB is highly linear
Nope. I'm speaking pace, storyboarding, the way information is delivered and how dialogue is kept relatively minimal but not too sparse. I'm speaking about the way Toriyama conveys a lot through visuals and "show, don't tell" (two different things by the way), which most modern shonen artists wouldn't be able to do to save their lives, especially not fucking Kishimoto.
Basically lots of stuff you need to have a bit of critical thinking to see instead of stopping at surface level "where are muh stupid ass keikakus and teenager politics?" excuse of an analysis.
>it just happens that DB doesn't exactly offer a nuanced handling of the ideas presented (confidence/overconfidence, penance/redemption, good/evil, etc).
And neither do any battle shonen because they're dumb action packed comic books meant for 11 years old to read. Trying to tackle themes you can't even hope to handle properly is actively harmful to the story and bad writing.
Aesthetics/style/being cool and not shoving shitty themes in your mouth are way more important than this trash.
Db world is the goofiest and shittiest world ever. Villains in DB are low tier evil with bad motivations like fighting strong opponents or evil because evil. Db characters are one dimensional
Congratulations.
You grew up and developed standards.
DBZ is a turd centered around the idea of fighting and strength. But quickly that idea degraded into insufferable plot armor versus plot armor over, more inconsistent and more bullshit antagonists out of nowhere the further it goes, to the point it retroactive butchers the lore.
For example, the strongest saiyans were strong as Raditz with luck
There's nothing wrong with bad guy just being an asshole like Freeza selling planets or Piccolo taking over the world. That's just a choice which can be good or bad depending on what the story needs. Could Dragon Ball have used more villains with deep motivations? Maybe, although probably not. Would Dragon Ball have been improved by having modern shonen jump villains like dog autist from MHA or Sasuke? Hell no. They're laughably bad.
It's just you. No MA fights are as well choreographed as DBZ. YYH would be 2nd.
Is really silly how there is clearly no knowledge of Martial Arts on the choregraphy tho. What is kinda silly since most of the characters including Goku spend their live studying it.
>Freeza arc is one of the most iconic shounen arcs of all time tho?
And why is that? Because of Super Saiyan. Nobody would give even two shits about that mediocre arc if it weren’t for Goku pulling that out of his ass.
>MA fights are as well choreographed as DBZ.
The only time a fight was well choreographed in Z was Goku vs Super Janemba. Any other fight is extremely subpar.
and yet all those villains were more iconic, memorable, and threatening than whatever you think is a good villain.
Are you high? Everything that isn't the Super Saiyan is great and possibly better. The hide and seek game, Vegeta being a savage, the MCs being Gohan and Krillin.
goofy just means something's harmlessly funny. it doesn't get more banal than that, lol. what do you mean 'don't need' btw? even if one were to assume a set of parameters which define something as 'passable' manga or anime, DB by this admission would simply qualify. it makes no attempt to be remarkable relative to bounds set by existing works within the same style, it simply continues to exist. again it would be rather difficult to be any more banal than this.
>Nope. I'm speaking pace, storyboarding, the way...
calling DB's pace 'efficient' is quite a reach imo, especially in the case of the anime. the jokes about having half-episodes dedicated to a powering-up sequence aren't far from the mark. overall it seems like you're constructing an ideal manga/anime battle sequence entirely according to DB's traits (heavy visual emphasis contra dialogue/narration, lack of planning or well-established boundaries, etc) and then acting as if.this is neutral 'base' template of a battle...
>neither do any battle shonen
my opinion of other battle shounen aside, this would only leave DB on par with them, which by this logic are equally as kitschy and shallow. saying that something you like is no different to the rest of the genre, which you present as unintelligent kids stuff, is doing it a pretty big disservice in the broader scheme of things.
Aesthetics are aesthetics because of how we are socialised, which has to do with how we live in the world. this 100% relates to real issues and questions, ie themes. they aren't separate
It's difficult to quickly dissuade someone from liking something. when their opinions change, its more likely to be when they remember what was said in a new light/context. i feel like you can enjoy kitschy mediocrity like DB as much as you want, but remember what it is and maybe don't drag other stuff down to its level for internet points.
>Vegeta being a savage
Vegeta was solidified as nothing but a jobber in that whole arc.
>get roasted by cui
>kill cui
>kill dodoria
>get dabbed on by zarbon
>kill zarbon
>murder powerless namekians
>get dabbed on by the entire ginyu force
>gets swindled by gohan and krillin
>gets murdered by frieza
And he never recovered.
>the MCs being Gohan and Krillin
This has to be bait. Literally nobody praises the arc for them being the focus. The only things anyone gave a fuck about was Goku vs Ginyu Force and Goku vs Frieza, because Goku was being wanked and hyped up to be the Super Saiyan.
>Everything that isn't the Super Saiyan is great and possibly better.
Subjective statements like this irrelevant to the fact that SS is literally the only thing anybody gives a shit about in terms of the Frieza arc.
Dragon Ball is great until the Saiyans show up, and still pretty good until Freeza dies.
>Saint Seiya
>Doing anything better than Dragon Ball
DB might not be anime of the century but Saint Seiya is straight up dogshit
>Is just me or Dragonball is just really shitty?
Learn English.
>there is no message, no theme, no changes in the world, fucking nothing unique, there is no substance at all
You're retarded for expecting any of these in a weekly battle manga meant for children. Go read literature.
This is mean. I got made fun of like this all the time when I took english lessons and it fucking sucked. It didn’t give me a thick skin or make me a better at english or make me think more about what I was doing, it just hurt.
learn english so it won't happen anymore
Even children's works can have some substance, retard. Children's media is meant to teach life lessons for younger audiences while lacking adult themes or violence. This really was spot on.
Why do spics and niggers like Dragon Ball so much?
>There is no strategy
Even as late as the Artificial Humans arc, there was still strategy. It was just more in relation to evolving the Super Saiyajin form and the only fight that utilized combat strategies in that arc was Goku v Cell.
Everything before had a lot of fights with strategic maneuvers, ones of particular note from each era being Yamucha v Shen and everyone v Vegeta.
> unique powers in the fights
There are, it's just the average faggot who hasn't seen the series since they were shitting their pants in front of the TV in the 90s makes this claim because they only remember "Goku punch the bad guy."
Kuririn had a disc that could cut anything, Piccolo could regrow limbs, Goku had a technique that boosted his power a shitton at the cost of his body, Tenshinhan had a move that could keep anybody, no matter how much stronger they are, down at the cost of his lifeforce, the mafuba could realistically beat any opponent (until Ma Junior made a counter attack), Yamucha was the first character to make a controllable sphere of Ki, the Soukidan, which led to an amazing battle, and so on.
It's just the Freeza arc onwards forgot these moves existed.
>Even children's works can have some substance
Okay? Themes like "power of friendship" or "bullying" isn't substance to someone like OP who's presumably over 18. He's looking for something with actual depth in a series that lacks it.
Dragon Ball has some of the best battle choreography in all of Shounen, despite OPs claims of Toriyama not knowing anything about martial arts.
Dragon Ball sets out to be a fun series for young men and succeeds at that. It doesn't want to be anything more or anything less. The only reason it got worse as it went on was because it became predictable and ran out of steam.
Freeza arc didn't forget about special powers. Krillin's disc cuts Frieza's tail off, there's that Namekian healer kid, Saiyans find out they get stronger through near-death experience, etc...
I think the writer was just uninterested in a lot of the older skills by later in the series just because it was old and he wanted to come up with new stuff. And throughout the android/cell sagas, we do see more fancy abilities and shit.
The Buu arc was really good up until Goku's return to the afterlife. There was this tension that was carried over every episode and it was great. And honestly while the quality did dip from that point there were still tons of great moments. The Cell arc had that same tension until Cell absorbed Android 17.
>Krillin's disc cuts Frieza's tail off,
not a special power, anyone can learn it
Kaioken had to be dropped because Goku would be too broken if could use it with Super Saiyan. Solar Flare was used by Cell. Yamcha gave up.
Dragon Ball does teach some lessons for kids in that regard.
>Hunt for the Dragon Balls
Don't use sexual rewards as incentive if you don't want to be preyed upon and sometimes the journey was more important than the destination.
>21st Tenkaichi Budokai
It's good to step back and relax once in a while, don't become overconfident just because you're arbitrarily deemed the best.
>Red Ribbon Army
There's never always a big shortcut to get you past the hardships of life. Using your resolve to get yourself past that hardship is where the real reward is.
>22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
You aren't your mentor/parent. You are you, and your life is what you make of it.
There is also a smaller idea about constantly improving yourself that is at one of its more blatant points here, with Goku's tail training.
>Piccolo Daimao
Becoming blinded by intense emotions leads to your own ruin.
>23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
Don't expect God to be the answer to all your concerns.
>Saiyajin Arc
Your heritage doesn't dictate who you will be. Even the lowest of the low can rise up and challenge a king.
>Namek Arc
Fighting for what you believe in and the innocent is better than standing around watching.
Don't fuck with the Aryan race.
>Artificial Humans Arc
Don't put all your faith in technology to do the job for you. Gero literally made a shitton of artificial humans to kill Goku, and the only ones that even try to accomplish this are the ones that were the most disobedient, and even then they're doing it because they have nothing better to do.
>Buu Arc
If you're a faggot you get all the girls.
>another thread for seething fags to harass shonen and dragon ball chads
We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
Holy shit DBSpics absolutely BTFO. How will they come back after this?
Dragonball is good, z is a bit more empty but has some substance
Super is as you have described, completely devoid of substance
I hate that the humans got forgotten and their arcs not completed
Yamcha never got married or fulfilled his potential
When our anime returns in 2020 and our manga gets a new chapter next month.
Something you wouldn't know about