Eva is supposedly showing a middle finger to waifufags, otaku, etc. - at least that's what Evafags like to claim...

I guess the difference is that when Tomino is depressed he just kills his characters, while Anno decides to torture them.

No argument there. Eva has certainly way more depth to its narrative than your average anime. Now or 25 years ago. But it's nowhere near as deep as Evafags claim. Hell, even Gunbuster, for all its simplicity, had more narrative depth than Eva.
>They have plenty of depth
Stopped reading there. Depth≠subtlety.

He killed off the characters in Ideon because the show ran out of money to pay the VAs.

All of the infamous moments of Evangelion was primarily due to budget cuts and Anno suffering from depression.

Depth = subtlety when you are talking about this medium. This show is not beating you around the head telling you these characters have BPD and are extremely depressed and being manipulated by adults. The reactions of many viewers wishing Shinji would stop crying and get in the robot shows that the series is subtle.

The Japanese are good at philosophizing when they use their own codes and behaviors. They suck at Western Philosophy because they keep quoting Nietzsche.

>What is this fact telling us about the series itself?
We have 2 options

1. The series is about waifus and you're wrong

2. Anno underestimated the tolerance of virgins

The amount of nudity, sexual interactions and innuendos, love, and high school romance says 1. Only an idiot would think otherwise. Maybe Anno tried to force drama by making the only characters around Shingi (who happen to be female, whoops) turn on him, but people mistook it as challenging the waifu norm because they're idiots. Then you have the artistic views on birth and life in the series which is also mistaken for hating on waifu culture by the same idiots

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To be fair, Shinki's arc goes in circles. He goes from wanting to pilot the robot to impress his dad to not wanting to get in the robot, to back in the robot to impress his dad. It takes the last episode for him to grow.

Asuka's development is much better in that she goes from being the best, to jealous of being upstage, to emotionally shutting down when an Angel makes her relive her painful memories.

nothing, but it tells us something about its audience. anno can only do so much to get retards to look beyond the characters as waifu. pretending like the current state of eva discussions is the show's intent is fucking retarded. we dont deserve anno

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Eva is objectively humanity's greatest achievement and there's nothing you can do about it.

Because waifufags are generally a bunch of anti social people with no social skills who would rather form connections with fictional characters or parasocial relationship's with creators/idols/etc. instead of making real genuine connections with actual people.
Atleast thats what I got from it. Though its probably more complicated since even though thats a theme that hasnt stopped NGE from being commercialized into oblivian but those I guess could be seperate issues.

Maybe but Anno seems to have shown more then once an issue he sees with being a total otaku shut in. ME!ME!ME! and shit.

>Depth = subtlety when you are talking about this medium
No. Don't even try this shit.
>This show is not beating you around the head telling you these characters have BPD and are extremely depressed and being manipulated by adults
Except that's exactly what the show is doing. It spells out everything for you. I am baffled that someone would miss any of the points you listed.

Anno: *makes all the side characters women so horny virgins can fap to them*
Eva fanbase: *faps to them*
Anno: You're supposed to see beyond their looks >:'(

This doesn't make sense. Misato, Naoko, and Ritusko wanted to fuck badly for different reasons. Even Asuka wanted to be fucked bareback by Shinji

The "durrrff Anno haet otaku" is also a dumb take, though. Especially when you consider the shit Anno worked on, and the official art for Eva

Not at all. If what you say is true, Eva was making a meta commentary. The fact that the entire audience supposedly missed the point would imply that Eva failed miserably to make its point.

It really doesn't help that morons with exposure (people on anime news network and the like) also misunderstood the series. So when those people said their dumb takes, people who didn't know any better agreed.

anno made characters that intentionally looked like nothing more than something to jerk to, but actually were intricate, and well developed and arguably more human than any other characters in anime to get people to stop making assumptions based off of appearances. thats what subversion is. the scene where shinji falls on reis tits isnt fanservice, its intentionally made uncomfortable by rei's lack of response. asuka is sexualized to portray how she appears in shinki's mind, which literally leads to him fapping on her comatose body and being disgusted at how much of a degenerate he is. If that isnt criticism at those who mindlessly wack it at the first sign of a female idk what is.

you are not the entire audience retard, and even if you were, then yes, eva failed miserably to make its point, anno overestimated you.

>the entire audience missed the point
Wrong, only dumb people did. You can't judge art on the merits of how well it was received by the stupid. You are supposed to sit intelligent people in a room and ask them what they thought.

By your metric Transformers is better because it has a boring narrative and no symbolism.

it's always a laugh when evafags think they are sophisticated and that they TRULY get Anno's grand Picasso then proceed to own like 5-10 asuka/rei merchandise.

anno is an otaku and he fucking hates himself

General Audiences liked the original anime, but hate End of Evangelion. The Japanese hate mindscrew or avant garde works and prefer their stories to be simple and easy to understand.

>EVA is a masterpiece, you just don't get it!
>What is there to get?
>Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Every single time

I never even mentioned my opinion on the matter. Are you honestly that stupid or merely pretending? Then again, you sound like an average Evafag.
>By your metric Transformers is better because
I'd like to know the logic which led you to bring out such an asinine straw man.

>makes a thread abbout eva discussions being only about waifus
>it turns into an eva discussion completely unrelated to waifus
Faggot OP BTFO

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Go back, Yea Forumseddit.

desu most eva threads dont go into waifufagging beyond shitposting so idk what OP's point it.

R u new OP

ok buddy

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evafags are self-conscious enough to not bring it and make themselves look bad

>all these tryhards talking like they're high class philosophers
EVA only explores Shinji's depression, anything else in the series is just there to see how Shinji interacts with it.

Rebuilds and EoE are the middle finger, NGE not so much. it's there, just not shoved down your throat more subtle and motivational message to otaku

Otaku just want to get in the industry to draw their own anime, or are obsessed with certain topics. They're just not interested in being wageslaves like Anno.

I recently realized that the souls entered the Moon/Egg/Chamber through portals on Rei's hands, but exited through the Moon itself. This is the same dimentional warping that was showed in ep 16 with the Dirac sea, pretty cool.

It's hard to empathize and understand that, in a sheer moment of absolute terror and despair, someone wanted to just blast it all out.
This isn't even the first time people have done something like this, although it also follows that people have been having a similarly hard time empathizing for ages.

He criticizes escapism and blaming others instead confronting your problems. It was directed at otaku to a large degree and otaku would use their hobbies as a way of escape. But it's not like you can't be an otaku and stil be a mostly functioning and happy person. There's nothing bad about fun. I mean one of the other shows Gainax made was Otaku no Video which was about being proud of being an otaku. But the otaku in those shows weren't depressed, angry and lazy fucks, they were creative people with friends and a community.

Waifufagging itself for example I think Anno wouldn't see as bad if it was just admiring a character, liking them, even finding them sexy. What's bad is when it's just an excuse for hating women or not confronting your feelings with other women. I mean the guy himself likes hot anime girls but he also has a wife.

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It's easy to understand the sheer absolute terror and despair. Japanese Media tends to use theater like writing and acting to emphasize a point or make it over the top.

Japanese Literature is literally despair: the book.

The absolute terror in Evangelion is disturbingly realistic, or high end existentialism mixed in with nihilism. Anno just used Freudian psychoanalysis and Jung to make EVA sound deep, even though both Jung and Freud have been discredited in academic circles.

>The Japanese hate mindscrew or avant garde works and prefer their stories to be simple and easy to understand.
What? So why are there so many of those kinds of stories? It's a lot more popular in anime than in american tv.

Japanese Anime used to be pretty dark and gritty around the 60s-70s. Anno is just a brainlet copying Nagai, instead of emulating Gekiga.

>The absolute terror in Evangelion is disturbingly realistic, or high end existentialism mixed in with nihilism. Anno just used Freudian psychoanalysis and Jung to make EVA sound deep, even though both Jung and Freud have been discredited in academic circles.
Even if so I doubt he did it for cynnical reasons. He just found them deep or interesting himself. Or they were just common in the media he liked himself.

>Eva is supposedly showing a middle finger to waifufags, otaku, etc
Evatards are borderline mentally retarded. Just ignore them.

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Dark Anime tends to be good when there's a delinquent as a protagonist. It just doesn't work with an everyman complaining about the state of Japanese society.

>dark and gritty around the 60s-70s
I'm not talking about dark and gritty. They weren't really that mind screwy. I mean Devilman wasn't as surreal as Eva, Lain, Neo Ranga, Texhnolyze, works of Satoshi Kon or Ikuhara. The ending of Devilman was suprising but not hard to understand in any way.

Devilman is amateur hour. if you want true despair, read Japanese 70s Spiderman.

Who else here was tricked by Yea Forums or /m/ into watching Ideon? Everything besides the movie was seriously a wast of time.

I suppose the interest is in how he decided to resolve all of this.
There's similar stuff about "Humans have such difficulty understanding one another, but even so, we must understand one another!!!" all over series' from before Evangelion, but most of these issues are resolved via brute force, or space magic - not really fully addressed.
In NGE, the protagonist is asked to just slow down and reflect just a bit more on everything.
The fans of the two camps reflect accordingly.

I don't want despair, I want mind screw.

The Japanese don't like mind screw. They prefer a simple explanation for what's happening in their media.

>The Japanese don't like mind screw. They prefer a simple explanation for what's happening in their media.

Eva is first and foremost a character study, and it baffles me that so many of you fags do not realize this.

It's like you're watching a show about traumatized characters reacting to fucked up situations and you're going
>Woah,,, christian symboism..... complex background plot elements.... this show must be about like uhhh philosophy

For fucks sake people it's been actual decades, how do you still not understand Eva? At this point there's no excuse.

As opposed to Westerners who enjoy deep and intriguing stories, such as Game of Thrones and Avengers.

It's not like the plot and lore isn't interesting as well. It's not a sin if someone prefers to concentrate on those aspects.

It is a charachter study, but at the same time those plot elements that surround it are still to me important to also be mindful of.

Patently false. I could count anime which managed to reach the end with a simple, straightorward narrative on the palm of my hand. And most of these were westfag pandering. Anime can't keep up with a clear narrative without sliding into psychedelia to save their life.

its the standard case of perverted retarded weebs wanting to act like they're intellectually superior to others. So they praise where eva capitalizes in the story telling, art, world, plot, symbolism, etc, but theyre too stupid to do anything than repeat what they heard about it. The only thing theyre capable of having a discussion about due to their limited brainpower is the same old waifufaggotry

You're fucking dumb if you think that you can change people's mind with a literal anime (only themselves can and it's obvious that evafags won't grow the fuck up)

Japanese Literature and Manga used to be pretty dark. A lot of old writers grew up during the war or the social upheaval of the 60s-70s, and wrote stories based off their experiences at the time.

Evangelion is rooted in 90s economic anxiety following the Japanese Bubble Bursting. Shinji, Asuka, and Rei are Lost Decade Era kids.

fucking savage

Also it's an anime. WHY do you want to enjoy an anime that's preachy and pretentious? Of course Yea Forums will like the fun stuffs like waifus, robots, plots, and the lore

Game of Thrones and Avengers are written by people who want to subvert fan expectations.

I never said the story elements weren't interesting. I think Eva lore is cool as shit myself. But in this very thread you can see a number of anons thinking along the lines of "some of these plot elements are opaque... damn this show sure is pretentious" and completely missing the point of Evangelion in the process.

It's just wild to me that we're discussing essentially the most discussed and dissected TV anime ever made, and anonymous posters on a mongolian pictogram forum can't grind their brain gears hard enough to deduce why Eva is so acclaimed.

>Japanese Literature and Manga used to be pretty dark.
Why are you insisting on this, when no one talked about it being dark. Mind scre =/= dark and gritty

You can't get life lessons from an anime user

Anonymous I actually have no idea what the fuck you're trying to imply from this post

Asuka best girl

>It's just wild to me that we're discussing essentially the most discussed and dissected TV anime ever made, and anonymous posters on a mongolian pictogram forum can't grind their brain gears hard enough to deduce why Eva is so acclaimed.

I agree with you since plenty of people act like its to pretentious/2deep 4 u b8. but they are currently talking about it.

Eva is pretentious because it's trying to give you life lessons about not to escape while being an entertainment, the embodiment of escapism, things that you have to have fun.

Eva's strength is at the fun stuffs: waifus, symbolism that makes you think like you're enjoying "a highbrow masterpiece", MECHS, ACTIONS. Not philosophical thingy; it's so basic in nature that even people that have a life have already get that after their puberty.

You can have life lessons from Eva if you have a life

Exquisitely based post my friend! Have a (You).

So does any media with a kinda larger theme or message count as pretentious?

Is that really what you took away from his post?

Imagine creating something so influential that people still talk about it DAILY 25 years later.

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Sword Art Online was also extremely influential.

Kinda how Utena kills the idea of purity and still had people sperging out at the sex scene.

NGE is a deconstruction of the mecha genre, regardless of your opinion of the show. Many aspects that are depicted romantically in most mecha anime are not depicted that way in NGE. The mecha themselves are total shit, compared to how mecha are usually shown as overpowered death machines, and the pilots don't eagerly jump in them wanting to be a superhero. They have deep seated psychological issues, which you could reasonably expect of a teenager who is expected to kill giant aliens in a mecha.

Sword Art- What?
Oh yeah, that anime about... swords? an art too... right?

NGE is a deconstruction of the mecha genre, regardless of your opinion of the show. Many aspects that are depicted romantically in most mecha anime are not depicted that way in NGE. The mecha themselves are total shit, compared to how mecha are usually shown as overpowered death machines, and the pilots don't eagerly jump in them wanting to be a superhero. They have deep seated psychological issues, which you could reasonably expect of a teenager who is expected to kill giant aliens in a mecha. I don't care about any Nietzsche shit or deep philosophy or libido-destrudo conflicts but it pretty successfully dexonstructs mecha.

My bad, I forgot that Evafags, living in their little bubble of mediocrity, don't actually watch anime.

>NGE is a deconstruction of the mecha genre
No it's not, you fucking moron. Look up the definition of words before you spew nonsesne.

It's not, it's a pretentious shitshow that relies on cheap waifubait

No its not all I got from it. Just seems like some kinda "How can you get a lesson about not being a shut in who only lives in escapism if your watching media which is escapist to begin with checkmate". But its seems kinda stupid to say that media can critique escapism since it itself is a form of it.

But I also cant decypher the last sentence.

Neither can I, but my point is that he did not say anything to that effect. He's right both about Eva's strengths, as well as its silly pseudo-philosophy, which Evafags are in hard denial about to this day. I guess it makes them feel smart, kinda like the Rick and Morty crowd.

>Eva is supposedly showing a middle finger to waifufags, otaku, etc. - at least that's what Evafags like to claim.
Not us, Anno himself.
>And yet, 25 years later, virtually all of Eva "discussion" is pure waifufaggotry. What is this fact telling us about the series itself?
That it failed.
If you ask the oldest fans, they all know.

NGE is a failure.
The fact that it has a fanbase, is a failure.
The fact that people obsess over the girls in the show, is a failure.
The fact that people like the combat sequences and the EVAs, is a failure.
The fact that people kept themselves into the otaku lifestyle or were hooked into it after watching NGE (and even worse, if they truly understand it), is a failure.

Anno, as a person, failed in his message and intent completely.
This is why Anno had no qualms at whoring the series so utterly with tons of merch, and why 2.0 is so shitty and vapid, because Anno has been defeated.
He realized he's created something that is just making the problem worse, he's become the very thing he was trying to fight for years.

If you're an Evangelion fan, you're a failure.
If you've watched NGE, understood it, and remained an otaku all these years, you're a failure.
Anno himself is a failure.
This is the true, ultimate blackpill that the oldest among NGE fans will always tell you, but nobody, especially on Yea Forums, wants to accept it.
They can't handle such a crushing truth.

Stop watching anime, stop reading manga.
Be happy that KyoAni's studio burnt down and animators and directors in it died, not to be edgy, but simply because it's less poison being pumped into our culture's collective system.
Shame waifufags, shame people that buy things entirely out of fanservice, support the "cumbrain" meme and mock them relentlessly, it doesn't matter if /pol/ is behind it, it serves this purpose perfectly.
And if all else fails, and you're already suicidal to begin with: please try to burn down another anime studio, before killing yourself.

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Is your point that evafags ignore the waifubait, mech and action shit to focus on the philosophical
crap and then when people bring it(waifu shit etc.) up they ignore it or act like its not important?

Otaku are subhuman filth, that’s what

>blackpill tier autism

I'm not gonna argue with NGE's plot being incoherent at times but it actually has a really good cast.

Because it's all a lie. NGE was a nice SF story with a side of psychological introspection that would end with psychological introspection saving the world.
Then they ran out of money and Anno went hard into his psychology, thinking he could give the viewers some kind of amazing epiphany. That's how you got the original 25 and 26.
Except it didn't work. The topic is too personal, Anno isn't good enough at explaining whatever he's trying to say and it's probably some half baked psychological theory anyway.
The stuff about btfoing waifufags and otakus comes later, it's basically Anno getting butthurt that nobody "gets" 25/26 and calling them sad virgins over and over again.
The last 20 years of EVA is Anno throwing a tantrum because nobody understands his psychiatry genius.
It's sad and I want it to end.

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>Except it didn't work. The topic is too personal, Anno isn't good enough at explaining whatever he's trying to say and it's probably some half baked psychological theory anyway.
>The stuff about btfoing waifufags and otakus comes later
He wanted to tell people to have sex.
All these years later you still haven't had sex.
It's a problem.

Not my point at all, but if you want to go there; Evafags will claim Eva is some high art, while citing its pseudo-philosophy in one thread, and then go back to obsessing over waifufaggotry in another thread.

But surely, using fanbase as a criticism can't be valid, can it? Usually not, but if a show is (supposedly) making a meta-commentary/criticism of something, and then its fanbase becomes a carbon copy of the very thing it was (supposedly) criticizing, it's perfectly fair to bring it up, don't you think? It means that Eva was either a complete failure at getting its message across or there was never any message in the first place.

The message is there but it's incompatible with people, otakus will always be a thing because the spirit might be willing but the flesh is weak.
The only solution is to burn the entire industry to the ground.

Well, no wonder the message is not getting across, with all the waifu figurines revenue Anno has been lining his pockets with for nearly 25 years.

Anno is definitely part of the problem and he should also be taken care of.
It's fine because deep down he'd openly welcome death.
See it as assisted suicide.

All of this shit was in Gundam '79 except the "not a death machine" part, which I would argue doesn't even apply to eva with it its extreme tech-fetishism. Try again once you've watched your fifth anime.

I never said NGE was the first anime to make mecha pilots flawed characters. I don't know where you got that from.

dilate

cope

Eva doesn't try to make the mecha overpowered, in fact they're pretty terrible.
>only able to be piloted by a select few people
>extremely difficult to control, even by them
>crudely built around a monster
>needs to be connected to an external power source

>NGE is a deconstruction of the mecha genre
"Deconstruction" is a word used exclusively by retards trying to appear intelligent. Aside from the fact that more realistic takes on the mecha genre existed *before* eva, the "deconstruction" part is a small and irrelevant part of eva.

cringe

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Like I told this guy I never said NGE was the first mecha anime to deconstruct the genre. A work doesn't need to be the first at something.

seethe

Getting triggered by simple words is a clear sign of being a special snowflake brainlet.
Grow up, nigga.

Yeah, a lot of Eva fans overstate how philosophically deep the show is.

I'm not a huge fan myself but yeah, some people like or hate the show completely for the wrong reasons. I know a guy who mainly watches stuff like Gundam Wing and SEED who hates Eva for not having cool enough mecha battles. That's really not the point of Eva at all.

People will read into it different things. Some might miss the commentary it has. Some might not. There can be those who got the gist of Eva and aren’t some waifufagging idiots and those who are that. I don’t think the fact that those kinds of fans exist means that NGE failed. Some people might just ignore the message because cool robots and cute girls, because people are flawed.

Amuro Ray is not nearly as psychologically damaged as Shinji, even after Lalah dies. And I like Gundam 0079 better than Eva.

The manufactored waifufag takeover is not telling of the show but instead a stark look in to the mindset of the waifufag himself

>implying Anno had a coherent theme and plot
You guys are giving way too much power to the ramblings of a depressed man.

No it isn't.
Anno is a huge otaku himself, and a self-proclaimed Asukafag/Kaworufag.
What he has a problem with is people who use otakuism and waifufagism to completely escape from reality, to harm themselves and others around them.

A little escapism is fine - it's even healthy for you, as long as you do it in moderation. This goes for everything in life.

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Someone should tell him that cynicism won't help with his depression.

I think episode 25 and 26 was him sort of realizing that.

This to be honest. I think anno doesn’t like people who use escapism to stop interacting with the world. Who simply wish to be in a world they create where they are always safe and protected from the pain of rejection or connection with other people.

I think doesn't like is too strong. Anno wants to help them because he himself suffers from the desire to escape in order to avoid painful reality. It's the fandom itself that has put a negative tone on his advice.
>big meanie Anno telling me I should leave my room and make some friends

Cont

I mean, if you rewatch some of the inner mind episodes, you'll see that Shinji is never judged by anyone but himself for wanting to run away. He's only told that it won't make him happy.

>anno doesn’t like people who use escapism to stop interacting with the world
So this is why he hates himself and is depressed all the time

Why did you think they kept sexualizing all the girls?

Jung hasn't been discredited you fucking moron

Another faggot that uses buzzwords in a vain attempt to sound intelligent
Seethe more Dunning-Kruger nigger

>Another faggot that uses buzzwords
>seethe more
What did he mean by this

Just get in the fucking robot Shinji.

>Eva is supposedly showing a middle finger to waifufags, otaku, etc.
Its not, its a message for those suffering from depression and loniless.
It just so happens there is a large overlap with Otaku. And mostly the message is positive "You can go out and be happy! Trust yourself!" not a negative "You faggot, stop liking anime and go have sex. t. Abe "

That was the series. EoE was Anno telling off angry Otakus after having been slapped in the face for trying to help them.

Your average 14 year old isn't going to fearlessly jump into a mecha and kill giant aliens. Still they might have overdone it a bit, Shinji is too much of a little bitch.

Reminds me of a military fantasy book I read where the author broke the fourth wall to tell some of his fans how much they were cowards. This was after he received many letters telling him to skip over the scenes depicting the horrors of war and get to the "good stuff."

Shinji is a little bitch because he was abandoned by his father in post-apocalyptic Japan at a young age right after his mother died. That would fuck anyone up.

I would, in a heartbeat. Fighting aliens in a giant mecha sounds cool as fuck. Being the savior of Earth is a nice bonus too. The little bitch even had several attractive females lusting after his cock. There's really no excuse for him.
>muh daddy issues
Plenty of people had troubled childhood.

I didn’t think EoE was that hopeless just a bit more fuck yourself now live in this hell hole you’ve allowed to exist. Still thought it was positive just bittersweet

anno even makes them go through brutal shit. waifu fags and shippers are the ass end of fandom.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Shinji to magically get over his mother's death or his father abandoning him. I maybe came on a little strong in the first post, his crybabyness is a little bit overblown by people who hate him. But he still makes me want to slap him sometimes.

Combat in real life takes a deep psychological toll on people, even when they're not fighting aliens, and if there are grown men who can't handle it, then why would you expect a depressed 14 year old boy to? Besides, it is easy to say ypu wouldn't be scared of giant aliens, but realistically, 99.9% of people would be.

>1. Shin Godzilla
>2. NGE 1-24
>3. Gunbuster
>Did someone slip me acid. End of Eva
>5. Diebuster
>.........
>.........
>.........
>99999999999. NGE 25, 26 aka babbys 2nd week of Intro to Philosophy

You're implying that piloting Eva is somehow worse than frontline combat, but is it really? The way I see it, piloting Eva is closer to a video game, albeit with consequences, than to a frontline combat. I mean, come on. An emotionally unstable 14 year old girl could handle it. I'd like to see her grab a rifle and shoot people shooting at her, while crawling in dust and mud.

I don't think it would be worse than frontline combat, but it'd still be bad. Piloting Eva to me would be more comparable to driving a tank or flying a fighter jet.

Sure, but with the added bonus of being the savior of the world special snowflake.
>flying a fighter jet
And is there honestly anything more splendorous than that?

But your nerves are connected, and I think it's more than that
Asukas arm split in half when her evas did and her eye blew up when the Eva's did

Wasn’t that because he sync rate was really high during her last fight with the MPE. We have seen multiple times the Eva’s take some serious damage with daily minor injuries to the pilots. Like when unit-02 gets bitten by the angel in its first battle etc

Boys

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it's the fandom's fault, not the show. just look at SnK for example, there's barely a hint of romance in the actual manga and that's all the fans talk about.