Which servants from 4th and 5th wars can she defeat?

>accrue enough heat to fry the solar system with your Sorcery
>magically punt the FIERY APOCALYPSE down into the future
>"i'll figure out what to do about that problem later."
MAGI: NO SENSE OF RIGHT OR WRONG

With the 5th magic? All of them, unless she acts like an idiot.

The earth will be consumed by the sun in 4 or 5 billion years anyway, so it's fine as long it's after that.

She could just kick that can down the road as well though.

>yfw Touko shat her pants in fury at Aoko's antics

Not without changing the physical makeup of the sun.

>The earth will be consumed by the sun in 4 or 5 billion years anyway, so it's fine as long it's after that.
Yeah, thanks to Aoko.

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>Nasuverse fanbase is massive
>despite that there isn't a single soul autistic enough to fully translate Mahoyo
being EOP is suffering, translation fucking when?

>translation fucking when?
Never. 95% of Fatefags never even read original FSN and translators are focusing on more popular releases to increase their epeen

How does one acquire an Aoko gf?

Your best bet is to learn moon or an official translation but getting licenses to translate TM VNs are beyond difficult with the constant gate keeping.

Be a Soujuurou bf

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One punch an Age of Gods level werewolf.

Be cute shota and then grow up exactly the way she wants
youtube.com/watch?v=3NXAM8fbDUE

You do know the 5th war servants are almost all stronger than the ones from the 4th, right?

>universe dies of heat death
>suddenly a massive bang of heat
>universe recreated again
You're welcome non-best girls.

Be autist who mainly runs away, think city lights are more amazing than sorcery, gets trapped in magic bottles, hits on alice, and can punch age of god doggies to death your bare hands.

Soujuurou for his all his autism is more likable than Shiki/Shirou.

see Most new "TM" fanbase are FGO nephews who like throwing money for their new bi-weekly FGOwhore so that Nasu can keep fueling his cocaine and JK hookers instead getting back to writing the 2nd and 3rd parts of Mahoyo.

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No servant in the 4th or 5th war can affect the entire universe like Aoko can.

She can literally speed up the heat death of the entire universe.

This goes beyond Earth and even the solar system and the Milky Way galaxy...

Aoko can affect the entire universe.

>UBW is hax
Another butt hurt gilfag that can't accept that UBW > GoB

Nasu already spoiled who Soujuurou ends up with. He ends up with Alice according to one of Type Moon's completed materials.

It was bad writing because character development took place off screen but Alice and Soujuurou got close enough to each other that Alice already knows why Soujuurou wears a bandage around his beck while Aoko still doesn't know.

Yeah people were surprised this development took place off-screen for some strange reason.

Medea can beat Aoko if she doesnt punch her according to Nasu. Your argument is invalid

I love Miss Blue!

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Why is Aoko such a slut?

Don't remind me, user. The similarities between Alice's and Soujuurou's theme songs made it super obvious that they were gonna get together, but the word of god makes it hurt even more. Why is Aoko such a cute cuckqueen?

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She isn't. Touko is.

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Is this what they call being "obsessed"?

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Because she's her student's true end game after he's all grownup and done playing with dumb vampires and nuns.

>dirty red posters get dubs and trips

Nobody walks around with their chest hanging out like that without being pretty slutty, user.

And people complain about Shiki and Shirou...

The fate anime and gacha fanbase is massive.
The rest of Nasu's works were always much more niche

>GET checkem shit posters
>likes dirty red
Not surprised.

Stop posting Akko and buy some pads for your pitiful breasts

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user, both Aozakis have an impressive rack. I'd guess Aoko has a bigger one, but both are notable.

Aozaki genes are good for more than just circuits.

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Best Mahoyo.

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Based and Soujuuroupilled

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She's Nasu's onee-sama/waifu, she will never get paired with anyone

>Aoko: 163cm, 51kg, 88-56-84
>Touko: 165cm, 52kg, ?-?-? (never stated that I'm aware)

In the KnK novel, Touko's breasts are described as "small breasts rising and falling in a steady rhythm". So she's probably smaller than her sister.

>CCC untranslated
>Mahoyo untranslated/unfinished
>Strange Fake translations also slow
Fuck Type-Kek and FUCK Gacha shit

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Nasu wants to keep her for himself.

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I don't know
how strong is scat lily?

>Aozaki genes are good for more than just circuits.
Also superior grandfather, can into true magic, actually run and manage their land, and aren't broke af because they need to blow up jewels to use sorcery.

Aozaki family are prototypes for Tohsakas. Rin/Sakura can't not compare.

Don't mind me, just posting perfection.

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Because she's into /s(ugoi)s(ugoi)/

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She can sugoi me any day.

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Aoko is a disgusting pedophile

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>Koyama didn't get to draw the last Mahoyo merch
>Despite being the only TM employee that still cares and remembers anout Mahoyo

>He ends up with Alice
Based Nasu, Alice is best girl

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>Headcanon Incoming
The only reason Aoko likes to diddle little boys is because they're the only ones who can come close to replicating Soujuurou's brand of unwavering innocence.

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Aoko sure is thirsty

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>not being thirsty when confronted by Souji

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That's Akiha, sweaty.

>posting V.Akiha
An understandable mistake, but unforgivable nonetheless user.

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She has true magic.

But because Typemoon is GARBAGE now she wont be able to beat any Servant. Fate has taken over and raped the Typemoonverse into oblivion

Its been 11(ELEVEN) YEARS since the announcement of Tsukihime Remake.

Its been 7(SEVEN) YEARS since Mahou Tsukai part 1 came out.

WE HAVE HEARD NOTHING

I honestly wouldn't even be surprised. How does Touko live with such a shameful sister?

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DONT FUCKING REMIND ME

IT HURTS BROS...

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>thatsthejoke

She doesn't, that's why she's dirtying herself in the mud.

She could just dye her hair and wear a contact lens and Cu would run away in fear

He meant the 5th Magic, obviously.

Touko's an even bigger deviant. Imagine having an underdeveloped wolf shota boytoy and then developing an Alice obsession that drives her to go after the next best thing.
Seriously, Touko becomes interested in Shiki because Mikiya mentions that she looks like Touko's Alice-doll. That's weird, man.

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Why is Iri so smug and sexy?

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I thought Scat only had Gae Bolg Alternative? She could defeat Gil since he is divine archer.

Nah, that just means Touko has good taste.

Without Blue she could hold her own against most of them, with it it is hard to say for sure.
Could possibly beat everyone.

no

He is for Alice.

Shitty gag.

That is in pure magecraft spam.
Nasu's point was modern magus can never beat AoG magus in a magecraft fight.
With Blue Aoko stomps.
Without she loses since HSDW means Medea can spam faster and stronger stuff.
In melee without Aoko wins.

She cares not for such things, she is pure like the snow.

0/10 bait.

>If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
>If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.
"Average" Noble Phantasm, according to Nasu, would be around a basic B-rank with no special features being just doing damage.

Yeah let me just dedicate like 100 hours of my life to translate a game that was abandoned by it's creator for FREE, to please fanbase that has proven again and again that it doesn't give a single fuck about translation quality and just wants to shitpost.

You're severely underestimating Medea. She's one of the top five magi in human history. And she would never let Aoko get close to begin with. Well, the younger Aoko maybe, but the older Aoko never. She's weak against kids but merciless towards adults. It's the same reasoning given for why Bazett could never beat Medea.

Then Grand/Order happened which includes KnK characters...

How strong is your chin?

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So Servants in general shit all over the 27 ancestors?

>She's one of the top five magi in human history.

Sauce on this? She wasn't even the best Greek magician in mythology.

Best girls don't get paired.

Scat is based on Misaya, for the last time.
Piss off and never return.

This was the estimation given by Dr. Romani Archaman. Also known as Solomon, the Grand Caster.

(you)

The only reason we didn't get a Tsukihime/FGO crossover complete with Altrouge face reveal and Archetype-Earth lusting after Guda is because Nasu knows people would firebomb his office if he did that.

I fucking hate gachashit

Well the thing is the Twenty-Seven Ancestors are monsters and heroes are those who destroy monsters. Especially during the Age of the Gods, monsters of that caliber weren't uncommon. Also, that's just the average. If you brought in shit like Primate Murder and O.R.T., even a Grand Servant would have trouble.

That's just fanservice. Though Fate/Grand Order does have a large number of weak Servants that Shiki could probably beat. Back when it was just Fate/stay night, Servants as weak as Marie Antoinette or Mephistopheles weren't really common.

Some random Magus managed to accomish the world ending ritual that all the DAA together couldn't. So yeah.

Yet both she and Musashi are just palette swapped Aokos because Koyama went full lazy

>Yet both she and Musashi are just palette swapped Aokos because Koyama went full lazy
Yes, that is all it is, nothing more.

No he didn't. The Aylesbury Ritual is for reviving the Dark Six. The ritual that sapped the world's mana prior to Fate/EXTRA was something else.

Well, Koyama's sameface is honestly worse than Takeuchi's in some ways. Excellent colorist, though.

Yes.

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That is disappointing. I guess Nasu didn't feel like reading all the Greek myths and comparing all the magic users that ever existed in the Greek myths.

If you asked an ancient Greek, Circe would be seen as more of an magic antagonist of Greek heroes while Medea would be seen as someone more tragic.

Circe literally scared Greek heroes while Medea in some respects, could be somewhat reasoned with or negotiated with if the subject matter didn't involved Jason.

Like if you read the Greek myths, Circe had way more warnings and stay away from her vibes compared to Medea.

Pretty much Danger Alerts everywhere if you hear the name, Circe.

Circe was so powerful she could curse heroes from the Trojan War if you earned her wrath while it would be incredibly hard for Medea to successfully curse all the Argonauts even if you pissed Meda off really badly.

If anything, an Argonaut would be able to tank enough of Medea's damage to kill her while in order to get Circe to lift her curse, even a hero like Odysseus needed to spend one year of kissing her ass to free his brothers and comrades-in-arms.

Just being a Magician alone doesn't necessarily make you the strongest. There are mysteries in the world that surpass even the Five Magics. The Five Magics only came into existence in the Age of Man anyway.

No one said that Circe wasn't one of the five. She may very well be. We don't actually know who the remaining four are, though a safe guess is that Solomon and Merlin are among that number.

Nasu will never top the Aozaki Sisters as characters for his writing. I hope they are only ever minor characters for the rest of his life though, unironically the mystery they exude as adults is infinitely more interesting than if we'd learned a lot about them as adults.

In our real life mythology, it was Circe who had more impressive magical feats and achievements than Medea though.

Sure she did do some cool things but most of what she did, was in secret, because nobody expected a family member would betray her own family.

I just feel that Medea isn't really the best representative of Greek magic in the Nasuverse and shouldn't be considered the top 5 magi in human history even if Nasu said so. I would have chosen Circe instead.

Wouldn't it be too much Greek wanking if both Medea and Circe joined the list though?

Mystery is a meme.

I just want him to finish Mahoyo.
That should link everything up nicely.

>thinking he can finish three works when he can't even finish one
While I too want Mahoyo finished, I highly suspect it's not actually ever going to happen.

Again, no one said that Circe wasn't among the five. Romani only said that Medea was one of the top five, he never said who the other four were. Also, it's only natural that Ancient Greeks would be significant. Ancient Greece produced some of the most prominent Heroic Spirits in human history, and their gods meddled way more in human affairs than most other pantheons. Magi from the Age of the Gods are a cut above any modern magus.

Medea's greatest strengths are in fact threefold: She was the daughter of King Aeetes so her genes as a magus were excellent, she was also Circe's niece and received teachings from her, and also received the blessings of Hecate.

She also has exceptional talent for High Speed Divine Words, having the highest rank in it among all known Servants, meaning she can cast spells faster than literally anyone. Incidentally, even though Solomon and Merlin are superior to her in a lot of ways, they both have mediocre ranks in High Speed Incantation, which is inferior to High Speed Divine Words, due to their tendency to fuck up their incantations for one reason or another.

Medea
>Class: Caster
>Alignment: Neutral Evil
>Attribute: Earth
>Strength: E / Endurance: D / Agility: C / Mana: A+ / Luck: B / NP: C
>Class Skills: Item Construction A, Territory Creation A
>Personal Skills: High Speed Divine Words A, Golden Fleece EX, Teachings of Circe A
>Noble Phantasm: Rule Breaker - All Spells Must Be Broken C

Circe
>Class: Caster
>Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
>Attribute: Sky
>Strength: E / Endurance: B / Agility: D / Mana: A+ / Luck: A / NP: C
>Class Skills: Territory Creation B, Item Construction A
>Personal Skills: High-Speed Divine Words B, Poisoned Meal A, Advice for Sailing A
>Noble Phantasm: Metabo Piglets - Forbidden Revelry C

This isn't really all that useful for determining how they compare as magi, though. The parameters of Caster-class Servants rarely tend to reflect what they can actually do.

A grand couldn't do shit on their own against PM, ORT or CMB, Zelretch was an underdog against CMB (like Shirou vs Gil level) and he had the fucking Second Magic and his magicannon was more powerful than Goetia's NP from a purely energetic standpoint (it actually takes more energy to push the Moon back into orbit than to punch a hole in the Earth).
The point being that the powers of the DAA are vast and wildly different, fucking Satsuki was going to be a new member and if it weren't for her freakish ability to develop an RM from functionally nothing she'd be weak as all shit.

The seven Grands together might be able to do something about it. The Grands were formed to fight Beasts, and Primate Murder is basically an AU Beast. As for O.R.T., well, it's not like Types haven't been beaten before. I think it's weird how everyone thinks that Type-Mercury is invincible when Type-Venus and Type-Saturn were throttled.

Together, sure. That's why I said one on their own.
Also Venus was never beaten, it just got put to sleep and eventually reawakened as V/V. By which point she had gained human empathy and refused to move her original body for fear of killing everyone. And Jupiter was killed by a god damn Ether Liner and we really don't know how powerful they are, beyond the fact that they were comparable to the Six Sisters, all of whom where True Magic users. Meanwhile ORT is indicated to be stronger than the others, at least in attack power.

Here's the thing, though. You don't need to kill a Type. As long as you can make it unable to fight, you can still move on and accomplish your objective. Not being able to kill an Ultimate One is completely irrelevant. If you destroy its body and make it unable to move, you've already done what you need to do. Even again Type-Mercury, that doesn't change. Even if it can one-shot you, there are ways to avoid dying. There's already at least one Noble Phantasm capable of defending against it.

Can't Aoko fight physically too? Probably Medea.

We only know that the Black Barrel was capable of putting it to sleep, every other method of fighting them requires a baseline of True Magic or equivalent bullshit. Even in the case of True Magic, that's still not enough, Zel only won because CMB didn't know what magic was and completely underestimated him and the Six Sisters only defeated Type-Pluto by fighting it together and even then only in mutual destruction. Even stopping them is not an easy task.

As a kid, yeah. As an adult, Medea wouldn't let her get close at all. Same deal with Bazett.

>As has been speculated (by the editors), the battle would proceed with Caster winning overwhelmingly. As Caster doesn't have a trump card to use against Bazett, she's quite the difficult opponent for Bazett to handle. While lady Bazett is at times able to dodge, deflect, or nullify high thaumaturgy, she'd be fatigued before she could grab a chance at getting the upper hand.
>.....Oh and you see. Caster-san. She's merciless against mature women.

I mean Rin beat Medea's ass. But then again, I guess Rin was a teenager, so, yeah.

Still, if Aoko was actually faced with Medea, she would go all out with Blue.
There would be no contest after that.
Medea's combat speed is fairly low for a servant, so speedblitzing is still reasonable in some scenarios.

Type Venus implied the Types that were "defeated" would respawn.

Types are unable to permanently die in Notes.

Even Type Venus who is suppose to be "dead" could still go back for Round 2 but she refuses to move her main body because she would begin genociding the planet again.

Types are much much different from Beasts who have connection to the Earth. They are completely alien to anything related to Earth. Earth concepts do not apply to Types.

Exactly. If she were an adult, Caster would have killed her. During that entire fight, Caster was all "Oh, I wonder what you're gonna do next?" "How cute, keep trying." But if it were against an adult, she'd just kill her without playing around. Remember the fight against Archer, when she brought out the big guns and shot giant beams at him with the intent to kill? She didn't do any of that against Rin.

Medea can fly.

eop?

I think the problem is that Divine Words are total fucking bullshit from a modern magus perspective. Being able to do A Rank spells with single-action mantras doesn't seem that OP in the grand scheme of things, but the problem is that it's really fucking fast and powerful compared to conventional modern casting. Aoko has very destructive magecraft and even High-Speed Incantation but she just can't keep up with Medea's bullshit, Rin was only able to barely keep pace because her jewels allowed her, Aoko doesn't have an immediate equivalent. At least where regular magecraft is concerned, Blue is a different issue altogether.

Seriously, Nasu already answered this a long time ago:

>Q: It has been said that a certain Aozaki cannot even defeat a serious Caster, is this "certain Aozaki" Aoko Aozaki? Is this an assessment based on Aoko using True Magic?
>A: "A certain Aozaki" includes both Aoko and Touko. In a magecraft battle by modern standards, a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist.

Guys guys, what if there is a
>Type-Sun

It was, it has already been said.

Flight shouldn't be very hard, you could jump really high, you could fire spells to propel you.
To fly form subconsious manipulation is trickier and might be more specific, but flight still isn't hard.

Even Touko can fly with a suitable aid (IIRC she said a broom in KnK, but she was probably being coy. Or not, KnK was one of Nasu's earlier works so maybe he was having them actually be like witch stereotypes or something).

Well, yeah. To really get an idea of how absurd Caster is, there are certain spells that require long incantations or magic circles. Lots of preparations. Medea can do any of that shit just by saying a few words in a dead language and poof. Compare to Rin. A single one of her gems has months', even years' worth of prana stored in them. Medea has an output equal to or exceeding those gems with zero prior preparation. She just has to say one word and she can do it. She's a complete fucking monster. And the amount of mana she has? No modern magus can begin to come close. As a Servant, she needs an external source of mana to even stay alive, but she can also hold a truly absurd amount of mana on her own. She can set up bounded fields like they're nothing and do all sorts of crazy bullshit. Even Alice's ploys can't compare to what she could cook up.

The reason she played so defensively in the Fifth Holy Grail War was due to two factors: Saber and Berserker. Saber's A-rank spell resistance means that no matter what Caster does, Saber just negates it. And Berserker can simply power through anything she does. Even back in the Age of the Gods, Heracles has never lost to human spells or curses. She is truly, utterly absurd.

I mean, her aunt was able to turn people into pigs with a glance. Ain't no one in the modern age capable of doing something that outrageous. I'm sure chimeras exist, but that's another league entirely. The Age of the Gods was truly fucked.

yet she gets beaten by a young girl, some walking std ridden curse whore, and an autist turned into earth's sweeper.

It's the same deal as with Gilgamesh. She lets her guard down around kids. Medea tends to display a weakness for young girls in particular.

That's why a teenage Aoko might be able to beat her, but an adult Aoko can't.

>That's why a teenage Aoko might be able to beat her, but an adult Aoko can't.
That is headcanon and assumes only some of the possible amount of scenarios.
Aoko is far more capable in this scenario than Bazett unless Baz can get Fragarach to work.
Aoko in pure spam can still hang in defensively, when it is a free for all there are many ways it could spin.
Fate fights are all about things on paper being disregarded.

Again,
>Q: It has been said that a certain Aozaki cannot even defeat a serious Caster, is this "certain Aozaki" Aoko Aozaki? Is this an assessment based on Aoko using True Magic?
>A: "A certain Aozaki" includes both Aoko and Touko. In a magecraft battle by modern standards, a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist.

>In a magecraft battle by modern standards
lmao nice qualifier

>In a magecraft battle by modern standards
This is a standoff battle of pure ability in magecraft, no other forms of fighting allowed.
>a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist.
This means without True Magic, and just explains that HSDW > HSI, which is the best modern magi can do.

People usually joke Amaterasu is Type-Sun, btw.

Actually someone posted a theory where Nasu reveals Fate/Grand Order is just a Reality Marble from Type Sun.

Everything in Fate is just the dream and reality marble of a slumbering Type Sun.

>On an unrelated note, Caster was a magus on the tier of True Magicians.
>However, since Caster did not learn Magic, she was still a magus.

>Q: Caster's ability as a magus is at the wizard level, but is it possible for Caster (Medea) to become a wizard in the future? Also, are there beings that have a "higher level as magi" than the current wizards?
>A: Caster's a magus back in the day that true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity with the "Five True Magics of the Modern Era" anyhow, so, she isn't going to be able to pick up True Magic.
>Also there are actually quite a few magi with level higher than the current wizards. In the first place, Aozaki Aoko herself is inferior as a magus than the lecturers of the Clock Tower.

It's also stated in Fate/stay night that Caster's spells are so extraordinary that they're almost on the level of True Magic. Teleportation, for instance, is considered to be in the realm of True Magic in modern times, but as long as she sets up the proper boundary field, she can mimic it.

So you're gonna just ignore how Nasu keeps saying that Caster would win and say "lol but she can just punch her to death because Rin did it once"? Man, you guys really must not think much of AoG magi at all. I'll bet you guys think Merlin and Solomon would lose to Aoko too. Yeah, surely she's the strongest there is.

Did Nasu actually come out and say this?

Yes. Its been cited like 10 times so far. in a battle of Magecraft, Aoko cannot beat medea.
To be even more exact, There is no modern magus that exists, That can defeat medea.

>On an unrelated note, Caster was a magus on the tier of True Magicians.
>However, since Caster did not learn Magic, she was still a magus.
Mystery comparison.

>A: Caster's a magus back in the day that true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity with the "Five True Magics of the Modern Era" anyhow, so, she isn't going to be able to pick up True Magic.
There was no true magic in the AoG, there were comparable mysteries but the concept purely pertains to the modern era.

>Also there are actually quite a few magi with level higher than the current wizards. In the first place, Aozaki Aoko herself is inferior as a magus than the lecturers of the Clock Tower.
Aoko is very specialised and sucks outside of that specialty, this is in no way a comparison of combat ability or anything.
Also, "magus".
there are plenty of magi why are superior at magefract, modern and AoG, than Magicians.
But they have 'that' over them, which makes them complete monsters.

I wish they'd put more focus onto Medea and Herc's relationship. They're the only two Fifth War servants who actually knew each other in their original lives and the story just kind of skips over it. It's kind of a shame that Medea had to be so fearful of Berserker Herc, considering that in any other class he'd probably have been inclined to help her like he did in life.

Nobody was disputing that.

I was answering the person because they asked. Just re instating.

I'm going into headcanon but I do not give a damn.
Aoko's peak potential would make her comparable to the highest concepts explained in the Nasuverse up until Akasha.

A trump card doesn't make you absolute. None of the Magicians are invincible. This is important to remember. All of them are perfectly capable of losing.

People keep forgetting that what qualifies as True Magic fluctuates with the technology and development of the eras in which they exist. Almost everything was True Magic in the AoG because Humanity was shitty and undeveloped, now there's only Five True Magic in the modern era because Humanity has come such a long way. Saying Medea was bordering on True Magic is inane because none of the stuff she does actually involves the Five Magics that are actually impossible with modern technology.

If you don't give a damn, why are you posting? Just go write a fanfic or something.

Of course, but it overwhelms any magecraft equivalent.
A magus can beat a magician, but it depends on what both have.

What Medea does is similar to Kojiro's Tsubame Gaeshi. What he's doing encroaches on the territory of the Second Magic, but he's not actually using magic at all. Medea's spells are similar. Basically, there's a metric shitton of things that Medea can do that no modern magus ever could. That's why, from the perspective of a modern magus, what Medea's doing is very close to True Magic.

I was saying in terms of peoples reactions.

True Magic now requires a connection to the Root, back then it didn't.

Yeah, but much like TG, it's not actually the real thing. It's just an alternate method that results in something vaguely resembling one of the many applications that the Five have. Medea and Kojiro cannot actually manipulate parallel worlds, nor can they use Blue. It's a world of difference.

That's what makes Medea so terrifying. She's an ultimate all-rounder. She can do practically "anything", and in certain limited scenarios, she can do things that seemingly step into the bounds of True Magic. Age of the Gods thaumaturgy is just as absurd to modern magi as True Magic is.

It's enough to make them nearly invincible. Tsubame Gaeshi is an unparalleled technique. The thing is Medea doesn't need True Magic to beat a Magician. You guys are acting like Aoko would naturally win just because she can use the Fifth.

I'm not saying Aoko would win, I'm saying that "close to True Magic" means functionally nothing.

Not at all. In the contest of modern thaumaturgy, it actually means a lot. It means that modern magi can't match her in terms of technique or power, and even if a Magician were to face her, there are a lot of things she could do that they wouldn't be able to figure out. From the perspective of modern magi, she's a "Master of All" who can seemingly do the impossible with but a single word. She can even construct artificial Reality Marbles, though since it's not really cost-efficient, she wouldn't bother.

She could also make Mystic codes that when compared to modern magus mystic codes, Would be like comparing Heaven and earth. But she finds it time wasting.

Item Construction A, after all. It's weird, though. Even though it's a staple of the Caster class, no Caster ever uses it.

It's a given that she can use advanced and near incomprehensible magecraft because she's a god damn AoG magus. That has nothing to do with the modern Five Magics which she has no mastery over. I'm not arguing over powerlevels, I'm arguing over the damn semantics and the fact that people seem to like to throw around True Magic like it's a god damn DBZ powerlevel threshold or something.

Nigga "close to true magic" and "mimicry of true magic" are both terms that pop up in Fate/stay night. If you wanna blame someone, blame Nasu.

Nasu uses it with respect of actually resembling certain effects that the Five Magics can accomplish, he doesn't use it like Medea is five levels off becoming a Legendary Super Mage.

I mean, the UBW anime had a perfect example of this. Fucking Atrum sacrifices dozens of kids in a state-of-the-art million dollar machine to produce a mana crystal smaller than his palm. Caster then creates a crystal several times that size from just the mana in the air.

And Mr. Satan can "mimic ki" by using a jet pack and a gun.

Nasu uses it to hype Medea up, don't fucking kid yourself. In a sense, she's more impressive than magicians because she can encroach on their territory without a direct line to the Root, and in terms of talent, technique and power, she's far superior to any magus of the modern era.

The "respect" that Nasu displays is towards Medea, not towards Magicians.

Isn't Circe divine and thus not really in the running?

She's a demigod. Demigods are fair game.

It's just jerking off the fact that magecraft had degraded with time, that's all it amounts to. There's nothing impressive about being born inherently better than people from the modern era other than they're just more powerful, which is why it's a big deal when Rin punches her shit in and Shirou hacks Gil's arm off. That's the whole point of the narrative.

An ultimate all rounder can still lose to an ultimate specialised fighter
Many TM works show this exact thing.

Regardless, the fact doesn't change that AoG magi are in completely different class. What it ultimately boils down to is that Aoko can't beat Medea.

Well yeah. That's why she can't beat most of the Servants of the Fifth Heaven's Feel. But just being specialized doesn't give you an instant-win button. Maybe there's a chance, maybe, but Nasu already said that Aoko would lose.

We already knew that. We knew that before people starting throwing "close to True Magic" around like it meant a damn thing.

In turn though it does kind of show respect to Magicians, as being 99% close still means you are like 1% of the actual proficiency in a manner of speaking.

Again, the entire point of saying that at all is to point out how ridiculous what Medea's doing actually is. No modern magus aside from True Magicians can teleport around like she does. That's the whole fucking point. How fucking bull-headed area you? Are you so upset about something being compared to true magic that you're just gonna casually ignore the fucking context in which the comparison is done?

>"In a magecraft battle by modern standards"
This is Medea's most favourable match-up as she literally cannot lose to any modern magus.
This takes away the fact that in every other scenario, Aoko is either comparable or outright superior to Medea in a fight, though Medea does also have far superior prep.
Both sides can win or lose, simple as that.

This also applies to

Teleportation isn't true magic, it's just hard to accomplish. Other AoG magi could teleport, she isn't special. The whole point is that AoG magecraft is a serious fucking deal compared to modern magecraft, but True Magic is irrelevant to the issue and she can't fucking use it, so using it as a frame of reference is fucking stupid. I'll stop being bullheaded when people stop missing the fucking point.

By that logic, Bazett would also beat her. But according to Nasu, Bazett would lose. I mean, the entire reason Saber's a threat to her isn't her superior martial prowess, but rather her A-ranked Magic Resistance.

WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK ORIGINALLY USED IT AS A FRAME OF REFERENCE IN THE FIRST PLACE YOU FUCKING RETARD. Holy fucking shit. Arguing with you is like arguing with a wall. The most retarded fucking wall in existence.

Like I said, it's frame of reference in terms of what can and can't be accomplished with modern magecraft, NOT god damn fucking powerlevels. You absolute fucking tard.

Bazett can only win with a Fragarach proc.
One possible win condition means she almost always loses.
Bazett is not at Aoko's level, she is about Ciel tier at best.

Fragarach is useless against Caster.

Of course Saber hard counters her.

And so she cannot win as she is simply not Servant tier at anything.

Are you really that goddamn daft? By comparing Caster's spells to Magic, it gives you an idea of how she compares to modern magi. From the perspective of modern magi, Caster's spells are close to Magic. This is the ENTIRE goddamn point. It creates context of how Caster compares to modern magi and partially explains why she's so terrifying to them. Teleportation is a big deal because it's only something that can be done via Magic. The fact that she's able to do it, even in a limited space, is still, to a modern magus, "close to True Magic". To a modern magus, this is horrifying. This is the ENTIRE GODDAMN POINT. If you're not gonna take into account how spells from the Age of the Gods compare to modern magecraft, then why the fuck are we even fucking having this discussion? Why the fuck are you even here? Why the fuck did you click this thread?

I don't even know who is arguing what anymore.

>Teleportation is a big deal because it's only something that can be done via Magic
I'll only say this one more fucking time: Teleportation is NOT one of the Five fucking Magics. It's just hard to do with modern magecraft, it's not even impossible, Araya could do it within the range of the fucking Ogawa apartment complex.

As for everything else you're ranting about, the issue is very fucking simple: all you have to say is that AoG magecraft >>>> modern magecraft. It isn't True Magic. It isn't even close to True Magic, it just occasionally vaguely resembles it. That's it. Stop using it in these fucking arguments because it doesn't mean anything, and Nasu using it to spice up his narrative when we ALREADY know what the differences are now is fucking stupid. Stop.

Some autist is arguing that because rin punch caster a few times when caster was toying with her, that aoko would beat a serious caster.

No, some retard keeps misusing what fucking True Magic means, I don't think Aoko's been mentioned in ages.

Different user, I'm assuming he meant teleportation can only be done as a fragment of Magic, which is indeed false.

Aoko has the tools to be Medea, end of story.

*beat

Either way, it's bullshit.

Word of God, Serious Medea>Aoko. Aoko wouldn't even be able to get close enough to hit her.

Are you really this stupid? First off, when did I say that teleportation is Magic? I said that true teleportation can only be done WITH Magic. As in only a Magician with the right type of Magic can perform true teleportation. Araya can do something similar in his apartment complex, but what he's doing would still be shocking to a modern magus. And how the fuck do you keep missing the term "PERSPECTIVE OF MODERN MAGI"? As in WHEN A MODERN MAGUS SEES WHAT MEDEA IS DOING, IT LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING ENCROACHING ON TRUE MAGIC. Do you just keep coincidentally missing this part or are you suddenly going blind?

Serious Medea > Aoko (without Blue, in a pure magecraft battle)
Nasu never compared Medea to Aoko with Blue, because at this time he had never elaborated about it. outside of what little was known of the original draft and Melty stuff.
That is the only result we know for sure.
Aoko was implied superior at close combat, and Blue's hax would make her astronomically more capable.

"From a perspective of a modern magus" is fucking inane when we know what the differences are. That's the whole point. It's not True Magic. It's like saying Superman is like a bird or a plane because people keep mistaking him for one. It's fucking stupid.

Why the fuck would you compare magecraft combat vs magicians in the first place? It's nothing to do with combat. You think the Einzbern homunculi who can use the Third have the same fucking combat capabilities as Zelretch?

It IS the point because that's one of the focal points in a battle between Medea and a modern magus. The effect is ultimately the same. To a modern magus, trying to figure out the shit Medea's doing is like trying to figure out what a Magician's doing. You can't fucking bring up a confrontation between an AoG magus and a modern magus without bringing that up. Medea ignores modern rules like they're nothing.

A battle between magi is a battle of knowledge. If you can figure out what the opponent's doing you can create countermeasures, but that because far more difficult if you can't.

Einzbern magi can't use the Third. They lost it, remember?

Teleportation can be achieved with tech displayed by Humanity in conjunction with what modern magi are capable of.
It is therefore not inherently related to Magic.
Both the 2nd and the 5th can achieve stuff like this as a byproduct of their powers.

user, all Blue did in that fight was allow Aoko to "download" her future. It's not like suddenly fast-forwarding from 16 to 25 is suddenly going to change the fact that in the time it takes for Aoko to shoot one beam, Caster can shoot ten.

Even the modern magi can only get up to a mimicry. "True teleportation" in the case of Magic is basically being able to appear anywhere you want without limitations. No technology or magecraft can accomplish this, but there are extremely few cases where, with a tremendous amount of time and resources, you can set something up that allows you to perform an approximation of it in a limited area. This is exceptional by modern standards. What Araya did was something truly incredible. He's a rare magus who can surpass even AoG magi in a single, strict area. He's the only man who can create a mobile bounded field. His bounded fields are something truly special, even compared other great magi.

Both Ilya and Justeaze accomplished Heaven's Feel. They still wouldn't put up much of a fight.

What medea does to teleport is Spatial transference, She achieves the same goal as what a Magician would do with their magic, With different opportunities.
Pure Spatial transference What magicians use, Ignore Posibility, And bring someone from one spot to another, Just because. There is no reason they went there, they just did. Hence its impossibility naturally, hence it being a true magic.
Medea stretches herself, Or others Through The third dimension, To the fourth, to the fifth, and so on, then dropping them back into the 3rd.

Well, Ilya's was an incomplete version and Justeaze was also flawed.

Oh boy, you do not understand how deep that rabbit hole goes.
As far as I'm concerned:
Serious Aoko > Serious Medea
In fact only Saber and Gil have any chance of beating her, Gil with something from his ass and Saber with Avalon is immune to just about everything and could probably win by endurance, on top of A Magic Resistance which stops all but True Magic or stupidly high level shit.

You're just dancing around the fact that AoG magecraft is just hard to comprehend from the perspective of modern magecraft and that it has NOTHING to do with actual True Magic. That's all it is. Comparing it to True Magic is something Nasu did in his early narrative because he hadn't explained in full detail what the differences were at the time, we now know the difference and the comparison is no longer needed or relevant.

Are you proposing that their ability to use it fully would make them any more effective in combat? Because I really doubt it.

Spatial transference can be done with True Magic, but it itself is not True Magic at all.
Both the 2nd and 5th can do it, 5th can with pure brute force.

i'm not the other person you were talking to.

This.

>As for as I'm concerned
So it's your head cannon. Concession Accepted.

Yea thats what i said.
what magicians do is Pure Spatial Transference. And what Medea does, Araya aswell i suppose, is just Normal Spatial transference.
Just that spatial transference while not being a true magic, It is on the level of true magic.

Does that really fucking matter? When a modern magus sees what Medea does, you know what he's gonna say? He's gonna say "It's almost in the realm of true magic" or something similar. Because it's the most convenient and easiest way to explain it. Why the fuck do I have to waste so many posts explaining this shit to you?

Hey, in the real world, when someone compares something to something else, even if they're not actually comparable when put under scrutiny, do you know why they do it? Because it's CONVENIENT. In which case, this is my failure. Arguing this shit was way more work than the alternative. I apologize. There, you happy?

Yes, because there is no concrete answer, but knowing all the info we have, it is the logical outcome.
Your argument that Aoko simply cannot beat Medea in any way is also headcanon, but also with basically nothing logically supporting it.

It is not on the level of True Magic.
Only True Magic is on the level of True Magic, there are 5 of them, none of them are called Pure Spatial Transference.
Because that is just below the level of True Magic.

The original point of Aoko vs Medea had NOTHING to do with the perspective of modern magi, we already knew what AoG magecraft entailed and the implications it has with respect to modern magecraft so bringing up the True Magic comparison delivers absolutely nothing of value to the discussion, apart from derailing it to this fucking mess. So well done, I'm glad you're sorry because you should be.

If something can only performed with True Magic, even as a byproduct, then it's on the level of True Magic. Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon isn't in itself True Magic but a single part of the True Magic known as Kaleidoscope. But it's still in the field of True Magic.

You're a real piece of work, you know that?

No.
"the Command Seals could at times make possible unprecedented things that overturned the normal methods of Magecraft, things on the same level as Magic.
This is in reference to spatial transference, enforced by a command seal.
it is on the same level as true magic.

It is a fragment, that fragment gives you only a specific part of a True Magic, and not with the same ease.
Having full True Magic will allow you to beat the person with partial True Magic at the same thing.
It is a tier below.

Yeah, well, you just wasted like an hour of my life that I can't get back now. It goes both ways, pal.

Command Seals are one time use things, which may be able to perform a feat that could otherwise only be done with Magic over and over again only once, or up to three times depending.
Once again, a tier below as the True Magic user is not limited and can also execute the same function better.

Don't blame me for your bullheadedness. A piece of shit can only blame himself for being shit.

Ok.
I'm not here arguing one is better or the same. I was just explaining the difference between what they do and how it matters. Dont drag me into Your Aoko vs Medea argument.

Like I said, it goes both ways. If you're frustrated you've only got yourself to blame.

True Magic requires a direct connection to the Root, everything you said lacks this connection and therefore is not at the same level of mystery or whatever.
That is all.

Dude, even if it's one-off, if it's comparable to Magic it's comparable to Magic. Not all Magic is equal. A single spell performed via Magic is still Magic. Even if that single spell isn't the same as the whole, it's still Magic. If a command spell is on the same level as that single spell, you can still compare it to Magic. A piece of the whole is still part of that whole. That's the entire reason why anyone would compare spatial transference to magic in the first place.

For instance, let's say that there's a magic faucet that produces a healing elixir that cures cancer, any cancer. Now, there are countless different types of cancer and each case is different, but let's say that someone produced a serum that is able to treat one category of cancer. It can't cure all cancer, but it can only cure that one type of cancer. It's still perfectly fine to compare that serum to the aforementioned magic elixir. Basically, you're being too anal about this.

>A single spell performed via Magic is still Magic
Except all of those examples are not executed by the Magic itself.
It is comparable, but it is not on par with Magic.
>Not all Magic is equal
It kinda is, you know the whole thing with a Magic can only be used by a single person and all that.
>let's say that there's a magic faucet that produces a healing elixir that cures cancer, any cancer. Now, there are countless different types of cancer and each case is different, but let's say that someone produced a serum that is able to treat one category of cancer. It can't cure all cancer, but it can only cure that one type of cancer. It's still perfectly fine to compare that serum to the aforementioned magic elixir.
It didn't come from that elixir, and sadly the example is not extreme enough to properly convey what you are meaning.
Basically the all curing elixir cannot be called Magic is parts of it can be replicated over time, even if it is only possible to do all at once with Magic.
>Basically, you're being too anal about this.
I am, and I'm not backing down.
I've probably contradicted myself too, but alas.

I'll throw an example myself.
Both Kojiro and Rin displayed parts of the 2nd Magic, but if both were to face Zelretch together they would not beat him as he can probably negate everything they're doing as the holder of the Magic and could even teleport to a different universe if he so wanted, which neither of them could do.

This is the gap between partial and full.
These things are comparable to Magic, but are not at the level of Magic as only Magic is at that level.

If Zelretch and another guy were watching Kotaro use Tsubame Gaeshi, and that other guy went "COOL, IT'S JUST LIKE THE SECOND MAGIC", Zelretch would probably go "lol sure, pretty much". And then you'd bust through the wall and explain why that's wrong and why Tsubame Gaeshi isn't the Second Magic and Zelretch would just look at you and go, "lol whatever nerd".

Semantics mean nothing in what I'm actually saying.
It's like the Second Magic, that much is obvious.
But then you can say "But can he fire off virtually infinite mana beams taken from different dimensions?"
The answer is only Zelretch can do both.
That is the difference.
Tsubame Gaeshi runs on a principle which is a part of the Second Magic, once again, a part.
It lacks the rest. it can only be executed with ultimate sword autism, where as Zelretch can display the same principle however he feels like without so much as thinking about it.
And that would overwhelm Tsubame Gaeshi.

Well, yeah. But no one cares.

>It is not on the level of True Magic.
>Only True Magic is on the level of True Magic
The super tl;dr of this pointless back-and-forth is that you're wrong. Nasu uses the term "on the level of true magic" plenty of times, advanced reality marbles, command spells that a servant agrees with, truly transcendent noble phantasms, and magecraft on the level of Medea/Merlin/Solomon etc. all get the term slapped on.
All it means is inverting the world and accomplishing things impossible to anyone normal.

Who are the best magi in the Nasuverse?

In fact, this is pretty much the attitude for this kinda thing in-universe. Multi-dimensional Refraction Phenomenon (「多重次元屈折現象」) also has an alternative name which was used by Saber in the Fate route: "Kischur Zelretch". His name in itself is synonymous with the phenomenon. And do you know what else it's synonymous with? Kaleidoscope, the Second Magic, also known as, you guessed it, "Zelretch". Both the Multidimensional Refraction Phenomenon and the Second Magic itself are called "Zelretch". And the Jeweled Sword which only uses a fraction of the Second Magic? Also called "Zelretch".

Basically, Zelretch gives no fucks. It's all Zelretch to him. Subsequently, the rest of the world gives no fucks either. Zelretch is Zelretch and a part of Zelretch is still Zelretch. They have a pretty blase attitude about it.

Solomon, Merlin, Medea, Circe. Are the ones that come to mind.

Solomon then Merlin. Beyond that it's unclear, but Medea and Circe are up there. Tamamo with several tails if we count that.

Nasu you hack tell us what the Fourth Magic is already

So far? In no particular order:
>Medea: Referred to one of the Top 5 Magi in the world.
>Circe: Medea's aunt and teacher. A legendary magus who is infamous for turning people into animals.
>Solomon: Known as the "King of Magi", in the same vein as Gilgamesh being the "King of Heroes" or King Arthur being the "King of Knights". The man who invented modern thaumaturgy as we know it. Specialized in contracts. His death marked the end of the Age of the Gods. He is the Grand Caster, one of the seven Grand Servants.
>Merlin: Magus of Flowers and a Grand Caster. The court magus of King Arthur. He is able to perform thaumaturgy that can mimic a certain ability that should be limited to Beasts.
>Paracelsus: Known as the "Father of Modern Magi", he rediscovered many forgotten concepts such as the Four (Five) Elements and Three Humors, and revolutionized magecraft as we know it. It's said that all modern magi can be described as his children, as pretty much all systems of thaumaturgy utilize at least part of his teachings. He was an "Average One", a master of the Five Great Elements.

These are the top five magi so far, I'd say.

Actually, Circe wasnt medeas teacher, They both Studied together, as senior apprentices to Hecate.
A common confusion is that the "Circes teaching" spell refers to her being her teacher, But it actually is in reference to medea learning how to act like a witch, While learning alongside circe.
Just inputting that correction, sorry.

Solomon was the one who invented magecraft according to Nasu. Solomon did not invent Magic, though. It predates him.

And the best magicians (based on our real life mythology) are likely from Sumerian civilization, thousands of years before Gilgamesh was born based on the Sumerian King List.

They are nicknamed The Seven Sages in Sumerian mythology and acted as advisors to Sumerian Kings, especially before the Flood.

>Apkallu (Akkadian) and Abgal (Sumerian) are terms found in cuneiform inscriptions that in general mean either "wise" or "sage."

>In several contexts the Apkallu are seven demi-gods, sometimes described as part man and part fish, associated with human wisdom; these creatures are often referred to in scholarly literature as the Seven Sages. Sometimes the sages are associated with a specific primeval king.

>The terms Apkallu (as well as Abgal) is also used as an epithet for kings and gods as a mark of wisdom or knowledge.

>A further use of the term Apkallu is when referring to figurines used in apotropaic rituals; these figurines include fish-man hybrids representing the seven sages, but also include bird-headed and other figures.

>In a later work by Berossus describing Babylonia, the Apkallu appear again, also described as fish-men who are sent by the gods to impart knowledge to people. In Berossus, the first one Oannes (a variant of Uanna) is said to have taught people the creation myth the Enuma Elis (qv)

1) Uanna, "who finished the plans for heaven and earth",
2) Uannedugga, "who was endowed with comprehensive intelligence",
3) Enmedugga, "who was allotted a good fate",
4) Enmegalamma, "who was born in a house",
5) Enmebulugga, "who grew up on pasture land",
6) An-Enlilda, "the conjurer of the city of Eridu",
7) Utuabzu, "who ascended to heaven".

These 7 Sages taught mankind and their kings, civilization, when before humans were wild barbarians according to Sumerian mythology.

Also don't forget that Paracelsus created his Philosopher’s Stones which is basically a Moon Cell too (in terms of tier: Moon Cell > Logos React > Para's PS). He is indeed a great magus honestly.
>the sword blade that is composed of Philosopher’s Stones has an ability as a quantum computer, where it can analyze and respond to the magical properties emitted by his opponent's ability, and then immediately encroach on it and make that his sword’s own ability. It basically steals one’s powers for his own use. In that case, it's very similar to da Vinci’s Noble Phantasm and even the calculating power of the Moon Cell.

Skill*

>Solomon was the one who invented magecraft according to Nasu. Solomon did not invent Magic, though. It predates him.
This is useless information, as the poster asked for the "best magi", as in, practitioners of Magecraft.

It always struck me as odd that Solomon is attributed with being the one who "invented" magecraft when he's not even the first Biblical figure to practice magics of some description, the Witch of Endor springs to mind.

Everyone before Solomon used true magic which was taught to them by gods or demons. Solomon's system is something that someone can learn without a teacher, albeit you still need to have a body capable of transmuting the energies required.

During the Age of the Gods, magecraft could only be practiced by "special" people, those chosen few with a connection to the gods or higher divinity. Solomon was the one who allowed thaumaturgy to be practicable by "common" people. This is why he's the one who "created" modern magi. Magi today wouldn't exist without him. He is the King of Magi for this reason.

Other worthwhile mentions:
>The Queen of Sheba: Well she's part djinn, so that gives her exceptional powers. We don't really know how powerful she was, though.
>Tamamo-no-Mae: Strictly speaking she shouldn't even fucking count, but the more tails she has the more powerful she can become. But she really shouldn't count, seriously. With three tails, she can spin some incredible witchcraft. But still, you shouldn't put the literal incarnation of Amaterasu/Vairocana in the same category as a magus.
>Scathach: Mastered the Primeval Runes created by Odin, and is able to do some amazing shit with them. She can even summon Servants without the help of a Grail or putting up a summoning circle.
>Cu Chulainn: Mastered the Primeval Runes under Scathach's teachings and can even produce a copy of the Gate of Skye.
>Helena Blavatsky: She was able to do some insane bullshit despite none of her theories making any sense to other magi. Seriously, everything she said and did should have been utter nonsense and the blabberings of an insane fool, but she was kept fucking showing results every fucking time. Magi of her time really hated her.
>Gilgamesh: Not a magus. NOT A MAGUS. NOT. A. FUCKING. MAGUS. However, he can mimic magi by utilizing the countless scrolls, wands, grimoires, talismans and whatnot within his treasury. He was even able to summon seven Servants and maintain them entirely on his own. He's able to mimic Territory Creation and Item Creation in this manner. But he is NOT A MAGUS. He can mimic magi utilizing his treasury, but he is NOT A MAGUS.

None of these can be compared to those top five, but they're still top tier.

To be fair if he isn't trolling I don't blame him for confusing both they are palette swaps of each others, the hair color isn't vastly different and even wear the same shirt while in casual clothes.

Instead of Solomon, it should have been a Chinese guy, desu.

Chinese mythology is all about the common guy becoming stronger just by learning how to be a pharmacist and basically chugging down magic pills and elixirs and using steroids.

In Chinese mythology, teachers are not really required for a commoner to learn magic or become stronger. He could literally wing it if he just mediated in a cave for 10 years.

Nasu wanted to link it to the end of the Age of the Gods and the rise of the Age of Man, and Solomon was one of the two turning points of human history. Also, Solomon is literally connected to God. Far east is the boonies by magic standards.

>japanese author
>respecting chinese mythology
Xiang Yu is a six-armed cyborg centaur.

He was turned into that in the Lostbelt. He wasn't originally that at all.

That user got it slightly wrong.

Medea is one of the top five witches in history, which says nothing about her ranking in overall magic users, and Circe is in-universe her senpai. Them both being taught by a a goddess of magic and descended from another god counts for a lot I guess

Also to remember is that abilities as a magi is not necessarily combat strength. Medea has amazing powers of magic and can work miracles in her temple, including faux-immortality and teleportation and the undoing of any wound short of death itself, but she's really only average at shooting magic lasers to kill stuff.

Nasu is still unwilling to give Monkey King an actual design as well besides a chibi form.

I wonder why Nasu is so afraid of Genghis Khan...

I thought spamming A rank spells like nothing is pretty good for a caster.

No, what Romani said was
>「コルキスの魔女、その腕前は恐らく世界で五本の指に入るだろう！」
>"The Witch of Colchis, her skill is probably within the top five in the entire world!"
In this case, I doubt he was praising her witchcraft, seeing as how Medea doesn't actually practice witchcraft to begin with. "Witch of Colchis" is one of Medea's nicknames, alongside "Witch of Betrayal". While it's translated as "Witch", a more literal translation is "magic woman". Well, 「魔」 is technically "evil" or "demon", but in this context, it's closer to "magic woman", or "witch". In any case, that shit's all semantics. The point is Romani wasn't necessarily praising her as a witch in this context, since she's really just a witch in name only to begin with.

>tfw Genghis Khan might be the "Little Sister"...

I do like the fact that he's a Ranma-type character though.

Would it really be the same Wukong, though? Sanzang is from "our" timeline, right? The Koha-Ace characters are from a separate timeline.

Maybe he's grand rider.

Conceptual powers have always been fucking hax in the hands of someone with the creativity to use them. The only reason Shirou isn't even more busted is he's completely fucking autistic.

Reality Marbles can only do one thing. Creativity isn't the issue. Unlimited Blade Works scans and records swords. That's it. There's little room for variety.

>Sister is actually older and more talented with a wide range of skills capable of sorcery close to magic
Lol what? Now that's some shit out of your ass. She is an exceptional Magus, but she hasn't shown anything close to Magic.
In case you're basing yourselves on some bullshit Mahoyo tl, it is Alice whose magic is described as "might as well be True Magic", with one of her ploy literally being something that came from the 1st.

It's more like just Nasu doesn't like it. SMT for example have tons of top tier demons from chinese mythology and japs have a boner for romance of the three kingdoms in general

Attached: Kohtei.jpg (777x1503, 602K)

Scat is garbage.

>enter powerscaling thread arguing one thing
>leave having argued something completely different
>nobody is satisfied with any of them
Mods should just ban these to save us wasting our lives.

None.

Remember, that Wolf almost got her and her friend.

Nasu MCs inevitably become Red Mage from 8 Bit Theater using increasingly specious arguments for how their "specialized" skill is actually omnipotent.

>advanced reality marbles, command spells that a servant agrees with, truly transcendent noble phantasms, and magecraft on the level of Medea/Merlin/Solomon etc. all get the term slapped on.
Yes, the overall tier of true magic does include things that as you said:
>inverting the world and accomplishing things impossible to anyone normal.
None of those things are K-Scope, HF or Blue though.
They are in the same level in terms of things that break normal functions of reality, but they are not the specific Modern True Magics.
Those are more special and incorporate all these things at a higher level.

Beo is immune to magecraft, and that is teen Aoko.
Adult Aoko can do just fine, and Blue Aoko will make Beo her bitch.
Also the context of the scene is important, but she is quoted many times as Servant tier, not to mention a 30% success chance against serious Arc.

That Wolf was 3000 years old Elemental. He was defeated by Soujuurou because lol Nasu but generally Lugh would be way above Lobo who could fight few Servants including Saber Alter and Jean Alter

sauce.

Which of the true magics is the strongest?

No idea what some of them even do.

>Magic == strength
Fucking stop this, they're essentially realising what is otherwise considered impossible. Like manipulating parallel worlds or manifesting the soul, it has nothing to do with strength.

This, this is why Alice's magic is called True Magic-tier. And even if it's hella strong and will easily btfo a magic of Touko's caliber it's nothing compared to 2nd or 5th in terms of 'strength'.

Can't compare them because they don't really work in the pure comparison method.

Potentially the most dangerous? Aoukos, because at some point she'll run out of ways to pay for the time and energy shes taking, and might cause the end of the universe.

First magic: violate equivalent exchange by conjuring objects out of LITERALLY nothing but a desire to see them be there. There is no known limitation on this power or more specifics given besides creation "for free."
Second magic: open up wormholes into any point in spacetime within any arbitrary parallel universe within the kaleidoscope. Allows for dimension hopping, stealing shit, time travel, and other unspecified benefits.
Third magic: allow the soul to exist as a disembodied spirit in perpetuity without being rejected and reabsorbed by the World. In such a state, the affected person is both Literally Immortal and Literally Invincible, and "perfect."
Fourth magic:
Fifth magic: consume any or all facets of the existence of any arbitrary collection of entities, for free, as "fuel" for a conceptually similar enhancement. Or the reverse can be performed, transferring part of yourself to another, again for "free."

Each magic accomplishes the impossible: bringing into creation or alteration of creation without a corresponding sacrifice of resources, travelling between parallel worlds, manifesting the spiritual on the mundane plane. Such feats would be considered an impossibility by humans of the modern era, even given the benefit of infinite resources to attack the problem. And not just to men of the modern era -- even in the age of gods these Magics would still be considered a true miracle. For example, true immortality such as what the 3rd offers was considered an impossibility to the people of Gilgamesh's era, something only achievable by divine boon and incapable to be produced by mankind. This was kind of the entire plot of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

>lugh
Dunno about that, no magecraft younger, it with fewer mysteries overall, than him can harm him but the only exemple of his physical durability was 'a hide that can tank a canon', so it's muddy if he could fight against servant that can cut rock bare handed. Aoko and Alice even briefly discuss the possibility of crushing him if magic can't do shit anyway

Sorry user, word of god is that Aoko can never win in a magic battle and that Medea is on par with sorcerers

Okay, I would like where you got these for 1st and 5th because 1st was literally never shown beside the weird comment on Flat Snark and 5th was only used in Mahoyo were it only explained what Aoko did, not the nature of the magic itself.

Where is info about the 1st from?

His ass most likely, only thirds description was somewhat correct.

For the first, from the KNK special pamphlet

Ether lump [Others]
Ether, the Fifth Imaginary Substance as coined by the Association. It is a necessary medium that gives shape by mixing with the Four Elements.
It is shapeless, but it is a critical element in the functioning of magecraft.
Ether is bound to become one of Earth, Water, Fire and Wind, but in the hands of a novice, it would fail to become one of the Four Elements and materialize. This is ether lump.
Ether lump is completely useless. In some sense, creating ether lump is analogous to creating "Nothingness". Looking at it from this perspective makes it sound like "True Magic" In fact, ether lump is originally the First Magic's ----------

>First Magic*'s*, not *is* the first magic
Also doesn't explain your 5th magic interpretation

I'm a different user, and its implying ether lumps are side effect of the First Magics ability.

The miracle that is Ars Almadel Salominis, which was the burning of human history for energy, was described as "reverse foreshadowing" of what the 5th does. And Aoko's magic is described as ruling over the principles of "consumption and extinction." To deny that it's true nature is the consumption of things is pure contrarianism. It's only a question of how abstract the consumption can be, and on what scale it can be performed. And in Mahoyo Aoko is shown to be able to consume abstract concepts like memories and turn them into tangible real-world benefits like aging herself forward, and also consuming all the heat energy of the galactic quadrant, instantly, with a thought. So in answering this question of "applicability and scale" of the consumption allowed by the 5th magic, based on the provided evidence the answer is "carte blanche." The nature of the 5th is consuming objects as fuel to actualize miracles, and there is no posted limit to how much shit she can consume at any time nor on how abstract the things she is allowed to consume can be.

That's not much of a reason for Aoko to fight a strictly magic battle, now is it?

Isn't Hecate more powerful than Circe?

Among the known conceptual domains of true magic include "manifesting the soul," "consumption and extinction," "operation of parallel worlds," and "denial of nothingness." By process of elimination, it stands to reason that "denial of nothingness" belongs to the 1st. Furthermore, it is known that the process of making ether clumps is similar to what the first magic does, and an ether clump is literally manifested nothingness -- denying the "nothingness" of the ether by forcing it to exist, albeit in an imperfect form. Therefore it is logical to suppose that the miracle of the 1st magic is to manifest nothingness, aka bring into existence objects from the void.

So, yeah no, you clearly did not read Mahoyo,. Aoko did not burn memories, she saw Shizuki's past and it upsets her so she decided to take his past, the years in which these memories happened and added the years to her own to age herself. Before that, she took the time in which Shizuki is dead and put them in the far distant future in a way to resurrect him, hence Touko's fear of energy consumption and heat death of the universe.

Except she didn't literally steal his past because his physical age doesnt change, as it would be if she just sucked 10 years worth of time out of his body. She steals the abstract idea of his "past" without actually taking physical age away from his existence. Hence why she also absorbs his memories along with it.

Broken conceptual shit is relevant in talks of strength.

That is not what any of that said or was implying.
Or this is sarcasm.

>Also physically disabled at the leg
Been a while since I've seen it, what happened to her leg? I remember her having a fake hand, but not a bum leg.

Aoko's disputably has the most devastating destructive potential but Zelretch is so much more powerful than her it's not even funny, it's pointless trying to gauge how powerful the magic are based on their potential applications alone.

>True Magic
Nice way to spot secondary desu. It's Magic

hello jobber

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Lewd

Not really a reason for a Medea to let her punch her either. Rin just got lucky by abusing her pity.
>with Blue
Which is blatantly wrong since Medea is on par or stronger than any other sorcerer.

>Medea is good enough to match Magic
Even she considers the 3rd an impressive feat

>it would be incredibly hard for Medea to successfully curse all the Argonauts
In fairness, "all the Argonauts" includes the Dioskouroi, one of whom is a god (and splits it with his bro so they're both half-god, half-mortal).

True Magic was how it was TLd back when and it's literally called that in Notes, tertiary fool.

>Medea
>Standing a chance against Zel
Fuck no.

>joins grail war
>activates Kaleidoscope
>time travels back to before your master was born
>kills him as a baby
>in every conceivable reality at once
>"pssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"
Name even a single servant that has a counter to this

Why even bother? His magicannon is more powerful than fucking Goetia's NP, it pushed the fucking Moon back into orbit and he can keep up with a god damn Aristosteles, someone who by all rights is comparable to A:E.

Fillia is one of the hotest TM characters to come out in a long while

>His magicannon is more powerful than fucking Goetia's NP
Says who

They're already in throne of heroes outside of space and time, it won't work.

Nah, Aoko would beat Zel, only in a handful of encounters would Zelretch be the better answer.

Maybe current one that's much weaker. Prime Zelretch beat Crimson Moon.

Nowhere is it said that Medea is on par with Sorcerers.
She has feats which come close, but that is a comparison of how good a magus they are.
If you knew anything about Mahoyo you would know Aoko's feats in the end are insane.
She can absolutely beat Medea, an outdated quote that you continue to misinterpret is no defense.

From a purely energetic standpoint, it actually requires more energy to push the Moon back into orbit once its been dropped towards the Earth than it is to punch a hole in the Earth.

He clearly said master, not servant.

>Aoko would beat Zel
Fuck off. Aoko only has a 30% chance against 30% Arc, Zel beat CMB who was comparable to A:E.

>Notes
Try harder, secondary. Notes has no mention of Magic. Other TL called it Sorcery.

That was a very well suited scenario for him, he could fire an infinite energy beam that pushed back the moon over time, and CM didn't understand Magic as a concept so he was underestimated.
Aoko in essence did a similar thing using magecraft and energy absorption against Flat Snark, though this is obviously to a lesser scale.
It is said in Mahoyo that if she used Blue in that fight it would become a complete casual curbstomp.
Zelretch might be better suited than Aoko in the Moon Drop scenario, but that is hard to say.

> Notes has no mention of Magic
You're right, the Six Sisters actually performed Party Tricks. Idiot.

> Caster's a magus back in the day that true magic was common so she wouldn't have good affinity with the "Five True Magics of the Modern Era
>In addition, reality marbles, the sorcery that overwrites reality with the caster’s internal landscape, is also thought to be a skill that approaches the miracle of True Magic. Although temporary, there are not too many magi who are able to execute this World-altering grand sorcery.
>In the ancient era, sorcery is synonymous to True Magic, thus magi are Magicians. The true identity of the Caster in the Fifth War is Medea. She is one of these sorceresses that lived in the Age of Gods. Therefore, the sorceries which she executes have powers that approach the realm of True Magic. No matter how large-scale the sorcery is, she can use ‘High Speed Divine Language” to cast it in one step
>Her skills even transcend the strongest magi of the current era, exceeding the Magicians. Although Medea is not a Magician, no one can argue that she is “a magus that is infinitely close to the Magicians”.
>Her skills even transcend the strongest magi of the current era, exceeding the Magicians.
Sorry gem- and colourfags

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Zel pushed back an object over time, Aoko for all we know could destroy the concept flat out.
Of course we know little of how good prime Zelretch was, but while I can gurantee a draw against Aoko by dimension hopping, a win I cannot unless she is caught off guard.
You should not underestimate Blue.
What was shown in Mahoyo was a teaser, and FGO showed an inferior version burn the entire history of mankind with 3000 years of prep.

The magic cannon was a one time thing, he can't do that again nowadays.

Yeah. It was 魔法 translated a magic not "true magic".

>Her skills even transcend the strongest magi of the current era, exceeding the Magicians.
Her skills as a magus also exceeded Rin's, yet Rin still won the right. Checkmate powerlevelfags.

By skills it means her overall aptitude as a magus at using magecraft.
Once again, AoG > Modern as a firm rule.
This applies to overall ability only, the stuff the MA uses for ranking and shit.
This does not mean combat.

Rin won because Medea in the end is chaotic good who doesnt want to kill anyone. Only way Aoko can win against her is simply leveraging her pity and love for the younger generation of magi.

Thats not really a win, youre just backstabbing a helping hand

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No matter how op your shitty spin-off's shitty character might be, a character from the main work (like Medea) will always be a better character.
Cope.

You do realise that CMB didn't just do Moondrop, right? It's just one of many things Nasu wanted a massive budget to adapt for the fight. CMB had a god damn Knight Arm, a reality marble which contained the Millennium Castle, Rainbow class mystic eyes and probably a whole bunch of other stuff. Arc, even at her pinnacle, is just a very good copy of him. You don't fight someone like that and just get by on just one magic blast.

>本当の魔法
Try again.

>current era
Zelretch isn't a modern magus, dumbass, he's at least well over 800, he knew Arc as an infant.

She was going easy on Rin. Medea toys with young girls and is utterly merciless against mature women, like Aoko.

>Zelretch isn't a modern magus
And the head of the clock tower is over 2000 but that doesn't matter because unless you seal yourself away from the world like a phantasmal beast, when mystery goes down it hits everyone.

>Aoko de-ages herself with Blue
Now what Medeafags?

>本当の魔法
Yes? Now tell me where is 本当 in 魔法? 魔法 is what you secondaries call "True Magic"

The powerlevelfag reacts with fear and anger when presented with knowledge that Fate battle outcomes can't be decided like a mathematical equation.

Medea's weakness is that she is wholly incapable of dealing with an enemy magus who decides not to fight her in a contest of spellwork and instead just decides to cast Fist.
Aoko's entire MO is casting Fist

Aoko could make herself young again and maintain her power, therefore making medea lower her guard.
And she wouldn't need to because she would still phase through all her A rank attacks anyway because Blue is stupidly imba.
Deal with it.

>This does not mean combat.
Of course it does, Rin vs Sakura is a great example in the original VN.

That, if anything, would probably make her angrier.

It's literally called 本当の魔法 in Notes, you fucking tard. You want a go at translating that one? You could try Real Magic, I suppose.

>Zelretch isn't a modern magus, dumbass, he's at least well over 800, he knew Arc as an infant.
By the definition of being active in the modern time he is. Its what other user said

That is not a fair example.
All sorts of specific stuff is in that fight.

Aoko if she wanted has nothing stopping her from becoming universal or even multi universal.
In fact she could hit multiversal, absorbing infinite 4D timelines is possible.
Whether she can handle all that, probs not, but that could be possible, it's headcanon for now.

Magic should not be influenced by the modern era, it's still impossible and therefore shouldn't be encroached upon.
I don't care if you can interpret that as Medea somehow being more powerful than Zel, either Zel has been depowered to shit (which we kind of already knew) or Nasu is playing fast and loose with his statements or Medea is comparable to someone who fucking 1-v-1 an Aristoteles. Consdering that she couldn't even 1-v-1 Herc, I doubt its the last one.

>It's literally called 本当の魔法 in Notes
Its not Magic you retard. Magic is 魔法. Notes shit has nothing to do with six Magics. And you can't call 魔法 true magic because it's not 本当の魔法

Zelretch's control over his own magic has degraded to begin with, he was in his prime when he fought Brunestud and he's long past that now.
Beyond that, you have to understand that magic isn't everything all on its own. It is an application. For Zelretch he uses it primarily to amplify his magecraft (see the gem sword, kaleidostick). He is an excellent magus, a wizard-marshall which is apparently an extremely high rank in the clock tower, but that's nothing at all to an age of gods, apprentice to the goddess of sorcery. Pretty much anything he does that isn't "flee to another dimension" is going to get counterspelled because she can cast faster and cast stronger.

>Magic should not be influenced by the modern era, it's still impossible and therefore shouldn't be encroached upon.
Well thats just wrong. Magic gets constantly encroached according to the fluff, thats why its commonly called magecraft and not magic.
>I don't care if you can interpret that as Medea somehow being more powerful than Zel, either Zel has been depowered to shit (which we kind of already knew)
Most people dont care about WoG so people mistakenly think Medea is weak as shit. Is just that magic resistance and heroes of old are broken against magi.
>Nasu is playing fast and loose with his statements
Theyre still canon
>Medea is comparable to someone who fucking 1-v-1 an Aristoteles. Consdering that she couldn't even 1-v-1 Herc, I doubt its the last one.
Actually Medea did 1v1 Herc when Ilya came to bust down the door. Kojiro was just her familiar so it counts. In some timelines she even kills him

>In some timelines she even kills him
Can you elaborate on this? You mean she kills him completely or just takes few lives?

>In some timelines she even kills him
In these timelines she has either Saber, Archer, a Shirou-projection-wand, is tapping into the Holy Grail directly or some combination of those.
It's not normal Medea by any means

Her familiar soloes him in unlimited codes

It explicitly states that it's 本当の魔法 as opposed to magecraft (魔術) , this is all accounted for in fucking Character Material with direct reference to Tsukihime, it's not a separate thing. Fucking read it.

Thats just Medea with prep time. Do you expect Magi to perform on her best without setting up shop? Come on, every Magi in Fate gets to function with prep except poor Medea.

Didn't Scat canonically defeat Gil?

Should not be in the CURRENT modern era because it's literally still impossible. That's the whole reason it's still magic and not magecraft.
>Actually Medea did 1v1 Herc when Ilya came to bust down the door. Kojiro was just her familiar so it counts. In some timelines she even kills him
Literally none of those instances are 1-v-1 and it still doesn't change the fact that a FUCKING ARISTOTELES dwarves any given servant.

I don't believe for one instance that Medea who couldn't even face off against Herc would be able to stand up to the guy who fucking 1-v-1d a god damn Aristoteles, a guy who makes every single servant look like a fucking joke. It can only apply to a severely degraded Zelretch, assuming it isn't just one of many TL errors that keep cropping up everywhere.

Notes has no official relations with Nasuverse. Same for DDD despite DDD having ties with same Character Materials. It's draft of ides. Calling 魔法 as True Magic was a thing in community before FGO, Now there is pretty much big deal between 魔術 and 魔法 so term like magecraft is necessary.

In the context of the story/plot you're absolutely right. I just thought we're talking "white room/thunderdome" fighting.

>I don't believe for one instance that Medea who couldn't even face off against Herc would be able to stand up to the guy who fucking 1-v-1d a god damn Aristoteles, a guy who makes every single servant look like a fucking joke. It can only apply to a severely degraded Zelretch, assuming it isn't just one of many TL errors that keep cropping up everywhere.
Remember that Medea can defeat Herc 3 times before she runs out of tricks, her only real problem is his hefty stock of lifes and adaptive defenses.
Meanwhile, Zelretch was pushed to his utter limit to defeat Brunestud, blindsided him with an ability he did not understand, and got turned into a vampire for his troubles. And he was the absolute underdog for the fight. It was his Shirou vs. Gilgamesh moment, not a fight of equals.

>Notes has no official relations with Nasuverse
Longinus AKA Black Barrel is a weapon that is referenced in Tsukihime and Melty Blood, as well as vaguely in F/GO.

Saber > ORT
Just wait. Takeuchi will surely convince Nasu to make his waifu the strongest one.
Galactica Saber is actually Type-Milkway

>Notes has no official relations with Nasuverse
You mean apart from the presence of the Crimson Moon, ORT, the Black Barrel, the fact that Character Material actually references this stuff in direct correlation to the canon source materials, etc. You can cite DDD all you want, but DDD doesn't have anything correlating to the rest of TM in the first place.
> Calling 魔法 as True Magic was a thing in community before FGO
You mean the thing I literally said before?

No.

I mean, her Excalibur possibly can kill Type already.

>You can cite DDD all you want, but DDD doesn't have anything correlating to the rest of TM in the first place.
Kaie. Kanata was in April Jokes if you call them canon.
DDD joke was in F/Z specials.

This isn't just a Gil vs Shirou issue, Gil without his arsenal or Clairvoyance isn't even that strong a servant. CMB is in the same ballpark as A:E, where even regular Arc outperforms the vast majority of servants, A:E's stats alone would allow her to cream most servants no differently from when Roa!Shiki and Ciel got blindsided and pulped by nerfed injured Arc, they wouldn't even know what hit them.
Nasu said it was an epic battle, not just Zel pushing back the Moon before getting in a lucky sneak attack with Kaleidoscope after getting bitten or whatever, it's not the kind of fight you can just dismiss out of hand. And it sure as hell isn't something that Medea of all people should be able to contend with.

Wouldn't surprise me at this point, to be honest. Please, do kill all the awesome background lore in favour of appeasing the FGO crowd, it's not even slightly distasteful or insulting to old fans, really.

>Should not be in the CURRENT modern era because it's literally still impossible. That's the whole reason it's still magic and not magecraft.
That definition shifts all the time though.
>Literally none of those instances are 1-v-1 and it still doesn't change the fact that a FUCKING ARISTOTELES dwarves any given servant.
user... Medea has 1v1d every servant in Fate Stay Night. Sure, its all thanks to Sasaki but he is just an familiar summoned by Medea herself. The credit all goes to Medea if her familiar gets stuff done.

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Kaie is just an AU retelling of Merem, who remains canon to Tsukihime until retconned otherwise.
The April Fools jokes do technically make them part of TM as a franchise but that doesn't necessarily mean its part of the same "core" setting.
>DDD joke was in F/Z specials.
I can't even remember that part, what was it?

Sasaki is only someone she has to hand in the event of a Grail War, it's not something she can just whip up on the fly.
And again, the gap between servants and Aristoteles cannot be overstated.

>This isn't just a Gil vs Shirou issue, Gil without his arsenal or Clairvoyance isn't even that strong a servant. CMB is in the same ballpark as A:E, where even regular Arc outperforms the vast majority of servants, A:E's stats alone would allow her to cream most servants no differently from when Roa!Shiki and Ciel got blindsided and pulped by nerfed injured Arc, they wouldn't even know what hit them.
Arc is all power and no finesse. She could be killed by a B rank noble phantasm, and she struggles with fighting two servants at once, and Gilgamesh would destroy her with ease, while many more have no chance whatsoever. It's all a matter of compatibility. Either way, we're not comparing Medea to Brunestud here.
>Nasu said it was an epic battle, not just Zel pushing back the Moon before getting in a lucky sneak attack with Kaleidoscope after getting bitten or whatever, it's not the kind of fight you can just dismiss out of hand. And it sure as hell isn't something that Medea of all people should be able to contend with.
It's not something that Medea could ever contend with, as Zelretch lost the potential to fight with all that ability centuries ago. That Zelretch is gone, he's been degraded since he got bitten.
Moreover, the biggest problem? Zelretch could surprise Brunestud. Brunestud had no familiarity with the second magic and probably little familiarity with magecraft in general (why would he care about Solomon's bullshit system for pathetic humans). But while Medea has poor compatibility with magic, she is incomparably excellent at magecraft, Zelretch's primary method of offense. She can disrupt him with superior spells, which she can cast faster, and at higher abilities. She'd be meeting him on his own level and it's a completely different game they'd play.

Dark Dirty Dandy - DDD when Iri talks about Kiri as I remember.

Nobody's contesting that Zelretch or Aoko can defeat Medea in a pure magecraft contest. The point of contention is that they're Magicians, and don't need to settle for a pure magecraft contest. Aoko's a terrible magus, canonically, so establishing she'd lose in that doesn't mean anything. Because she's a Magician, and more than that, she's got the Magic best suited for destruction, so having her not use her Magic means you're underplaying her.

Please, dont sully Mahoyo with your powerlevels, it was a comfy story about three cute people learning how to be friend and care for each other.
Battles were padding to support the story, not the point of the story.

Powerlevels are fun. We seen Aoko in action. Maybe someday we will see Kouma in action. Not KT Kouma who was just a nightmare and shadow of himself

Aoko and Zel respective most impressive feat were beating an OP moon-like entity throwing shit at them from the sky.
They both only managed to win because the ennemies had bad comptibility and the battlefields advantaged them, and them specifically as another magi would have been wrecked.
Based on that, comparing their powerlevel to other characters seems like a very shaky undetaking.

You are woefully underestimating the difference in power between 30% Arc and A:E, she has absolute Authority over Gaia and corresponding backup. Also, Nasu never said Gil would beat her with ease, just that he'd win due to terrible compatibility.

And again, it doesn't matter how little CMB knew about magic when general performance matters a lot. You can use all the tricks in the world, but if you can't keep up with your opponent you can't save yourself, this is something Sion found to her chagrin against Arc. CMB is a powerhouse that even with casual motions should be way above servant speed and raw power, Zel would need to have incredible performance to even keep up with him, even if he's just fooling around.
And Zel wouldn't need to cast anything, not when he has the Jeweled Sword on hand. If he can keep up with CMB, there's literally no reason why he couldn't just blast Medea before she knew what the fuck was happening.
The fact that Zel has degraded is literally the only logical explanation as to why she'd win, and it's still a pretty weak one at that.

Thing is that nothing has ever implied that Zelretch uses his magic for anything except supercharging his magecraft. The gem sword is literally just an infinite mana battery and Kaleidostick is an unlocking of skills. His most fantastic spell, "Ether Square", is basically a kamehameha with as much mana as he can collect.
Zelretch just seems to be a guy who fights with magecraft, amplified to an insane maximum allowing him to hit way above his weight class. But still just magecraft, which Medea would be able to cut off before he gets anything going. He could likely escape from her, but I don't see anything ever shown that would imply he could stick around and hit her with spells if she didn't want it to happen.

>And again, it doesn't matter how little CMB knew about magic when general performance matters a lot. You can use all the tricks in the world, but if you can't keep up with your opponent you can't save yourself, this is something Sion found to her chagrin against Arc. CMB is a powerhouse that even with casual motions should be way above servant speed and raw power, Zel would need to have incredible performance to even keep up with him, even if he's just fooling around.
Brunestud was fooling around enough to bite Zelretch and turn him into a vampire during their fight, is that enough for you? It was not a battle between equals. Again, it is directly comparable to Shirou vs. Gilgamesh, he was wildly overconfident, he was fighting an enemy he didn't understand, and he got blindsided.
>And Zel wouldn't need to cast anything, not when he has the Jeweled Sword on hand. If he can keep up with CMB, there's literally no reason why he couldn't just blast Medea before she knew what the fuck was happening.
She'd stop such a rudimentary attack with a single word, what are you on about?

>Aoko and Zel respective most impressive feat were beating an OP moon-like entity throwing shit at them from the sky.
Again, Moondrop is just one of many things CMB did. And he wasn't a stationary Moonman, he's a god damn space vampire king that was the basis for Arc, with an obscene arsenal, including stuff that otherwise hasn't been seen outside of Notes.

It doesn't matter if it wasn't between equals, if Zel literally couldn't keep up with any of his movements it wouldn't be a fight at all. And, as Nasu has made perfectly clear, it was a fight, one of epic proportions, where biting, Kaleidoscope and Moondrop were just one of many things to account for.
>She'd stop such a rudimentary attack with a single word, what are you on about?
She'd stop the ethercannon that pushed the Moon back into orbit that's fueled by Kaleidoscope with a word? Are you high?

>mfw people just can't get it into their heads that the relationship between magic and man was so different in the age of gods that even if Zelretch had a literal infinite mana stick, Medea could still rip it apart thanks to the fact that magic is like an extension of her own body while he's just using it like a stick.

They're just so much more in tune with it that you can NEVER do anything about it. It's like fighting solomon.

>It doesn't matter if it wasn't between equals, if Zel literally couldn't keep up with any of his movements it wouldn't be a fight at all. And, as Nasu has made perfectly clear, it was a fight, one of epic proportions, where biting, Kaleidoscope and Moondrop were just one of many things to account for.
And Shirou could keep up with Servants, does that mean he's a good fight for them? Brunestud went easy. Shirou VS Gil was an amazing, flashy, incredible battle, but still was obviously one side jobbing while the other was pressing every single advantage they could as fast as they could. It's a perfect analog, really.
>She'd stop the ethercannon that pushed the Moon back into orbit that's fueled by Kaleidoscope with a word? Are you high?
That shit takes time to set up. She'd never even let him finish the magic circle before dispelling it.

I'll believe it when I see a statement that isn't easily misinterpreted bullshit.

It's not easily misinterpreted, it's even shown in the UBW anime explicitly how different the way people back then even SEE mana.

You might be able to get a bigger magical fuckstick than her, but she can go "lol that's cute" and make it fall apart. But she might not be able to match the raw power of it. Which is the most standard nasuverse shit there is.

Why didn't she rip Rin's reinforcement apart with a word then?
Why she needed Rule Breaker to break Saber's contract with Shirou if the Matou binding magecraft is something she should be able to break with a word?
Why did she almost get killed by Archer (needing him to spare her) if she could break his magecraft with a word?
Medea is not Solomon, and even he needed the Ten Rings to just undo any magecraft ever.

>Why didn't she rip Rin's reinforcement apart with a word then?
Magical energy within another person's body isn't free to interact with. Magical energy outside the body is another story.
>Why she needed Rule Breaker to break Saber's contract with Shirou if the Matou binding magecraft is something she should be able to break with a word?
Contracts are intangible.
>Why did she almost get killed by Archer (needing him to spare her) if she could break his magecraft with a word?
She didn't even realize what Archer was doing was magecraft, really. Most people don't.

>Why didn't she rip Rin's reinforcement apart with a word then?

Because she was like "oh hey, I'll have a cute magic fight with yo-" *gets punched in the gut*

HGW magic is fucked up in general.

Archer's magecraft is also special. You can't fuck with reality marbles like that, and everything archer traces isn't really traced, it's coming from UBW.

Yeah, I meant that tanking the shit from the sky was the feat, CMB might have done something else but we don't know about that, might have just been
>Hey, Moon
>Yo, old man
>HOW DARE YOU *spams beams*
>Moon teleports behind him, "psth, nothing personal kid" and bites him
>REEEEEEE *fires more beam*
>Motherfucker, here's the moon
>*fires The Biggest Beam*
>"Aaaaaah, noooo, how could this hap... *gets headshoted by Archer hiding in the hidden face of the moon*

>And Shirou could keep up with Servants
Yes, he could. That's the point. Ordinarily he can't fight Gil, but Zel doesn't need to be CMB tier to fight fucking Medea who can barely keep up with fucking Saber.
>That shit takes time to set up. She'd never even let him finish the magic circle before dispelling it.
We literally don't know how long it takes to set up, it's a fucking jewel weapon, the basis for the Tohsaka gem magecraft that allowed them to use A Rank spells with single-action incantations, by all rights he could be able to fire it off instantly.

We don't even know how old Zelretch is, or when CMB died. For all we know, he was around during the AoG too, that shit only ended with Camelot circa 500 AD.

>*gets headshoted by Archer hiding in the hidden face of the moon*
So Crimson Moon's defeat was in truth counter force's job?

Also it's worth remembering that fucking Roa had AoG magecraft and he was still human when Arc was fully grown well after Zelretch fought CMB.

Scat canonically is just breeding material for Cu.

Nasu really needs to stop playing her up as this big badass when she was just a mentor that was surpassed in every regard by Cu, who then impregnated her and her sister(s)

Doubt. If Gaia wanted CMB to come over and even made a pact I doubt Alaya could act on it.

>Yes, he could. That's the point. Ordinarily he can't fight Gil, but Zel doesn't need to be CMB tier to fight fucking Medea who can barely keep up with fucking Saber.
Medea is much faster in the field of magic. Physical speed is irrelevant for this subject.
>We literally don't know how long it takes to set up, it's a fucking jewel weapon, the basis for the Tohsaka gem magecraft that allowed them to use A Rank spells with single-action incantations, by all rights he could be able to fire it off instantly.
It's a magic circle. Ether Square is not the Gem Sword, the Gem Sword simply cuts a tiny hole into other worlds to pull ambient mana from. The magic circle, however, is certainly going to be a High Thaumaturgy ritual, which means he either needs to prepare it beforehand (which we don't know if he can even do, as that's an Edelfelt/Tohsaka thing) or he needs to spend at least several seconds in chanting and concentration, and either way, Medea can dispel it with a word just like she did to Rin's gems.

Nasu cannot not break his own rules to save his life.
>Zelretch can literally beat a Type
>Medea can beat any modern magus including Aoko
I don't get this shit.
I don't get it at all.
It's like every single character has their own wank that says they can defeat everyone else.

>that shit only ended with Camelot circa 500 AD.
The age of gods ended with King Solomon's death.
The death of Vortigern was just the final nail in its coffin, the last condemnation that prevented the age of gods from ever coming back.

Powerlevels don't work like in DBZ.

Medea could best any living human in a contest of pure magecraft. There's a lot of qualifiers in there, notice.

Zelretch beating a Type was a once-in-a-lifetime miracle that could never hope to be repeated. That's it. It's not hard to understand.
Just like Shirou managed to push back Gilgamesh with the perfect circumstance, but gets kicked in half by Medusa without any issue on a normal day.

It's really not hard.

>Zel can get a bigger magical fuckstick, thus things that can't just manipulate the fundamentals of it are more vulnerable to being blasted by it

>However if you CAN manipulate it's fundamentals you can deal with it, despite the fact you might lose to things that you need more power than you can get to kill. Like Medea can.

>Physical speed is irrelevant for this subject.
It's literally not, though? Being able to react in time makes the difference in literally everything.
>that's an Edelfelt/Tohsaka thing
You mean the thing that they learnt from the basic teachings he passed down to Nagato? Yeah, why would he ever be able to do that?
Also, the Jeweled Sword alone would be more than enough.

So...before Medea, then? Her tales only date back to around 700BC at the earliest.

>So...before Medea, then? Her tales only date back to around 700BC at the earliest.

Appearing in a written account is not the same as existing. These were tales being told for hundreds of years before people wrote them down, IIRC at least.

>living human
Zeltrech is a Vampire

Jason and the Argonauts goes back to way before the Greek Dark Ages.
Of course, Medea herself was a character added to the tale something like a millenia after the, older, Linear B records that were found.

>It's literally not, though? Being able to react in time makes the difference in literally everything.
It's a completely different thing to react to magical senses than to react to a sword swinging at your face. If Brunestud were fighting Zelretch seriously to begin with, he'd certainly have beheaded the guy before he could blink.
>You mean the thing that they learnt from the basic teachings he passed down to Nagato? Yeah, why would he ever be able to do that?
... no? It's an Edelfelt thing. Zelretch has no defined relationship to the Edelfelt clan, and the Tohsaka clan learned that technique when a Tohsaka ancestor romanced an Edelfelt ancestor in the third war. It's where they got Gandr, a finnish curse, too.
Before the gemcraft idea got taken, the Tohsakas were family of martial artists.
>Also, the Jeweled Sword alone would be more than enough.
All it does is pull mana from other worlds. It doesn't cast any spells on its own.
>So...before Medea, then? Her tales only date back to around 700BC at the earliest.
The stories take place before the time of writing. Greek heroes get 'dated' circa 1000 BC.

>The death of Vortigern was just the final nail in its coffin, the last condemnation that prevented the age of gods from ever coming back.
Wasn't Richard Coeur de Lion's era said to be the last one to have a foot in the AoG. Might not be remembering well, and it was just about the mystic in general though.

Nasu is an inconsistent hack.

Yes, but that's just the dying embers. The Age of Gods was a graceful descent and it wasn't a sudden light switch being flipped. It couldn't have been revived as a whole as Vortigern wished it to, but mystery could still spike within certain exceptional individuals.

Again, allowing for the history of Colchis she'd be somewhere between 1300-700 BC, so even then it's not even guaranteed and it's pretty borderline regardless.

>It's a completely different thing to react to magical senses than to react to a sword swinging at your face.
Not really.
>If Brunestud were fighting Zelretch seriously to begin with, he'd certainly have beheaded the guy before he could blink.
Massive assumption right there.
And again, why would the guy who's whole schtick is based around jewel sorcery not have a grasp of the gem magecraft principle?
>All it does is pull mana from other worlds. It doesn't cast any spells on its own.
And why would it need a magic circle to use for all instances when its been demonstrated that even an imitation used by Rin didn't need it?

We'll learn more when the Camelot lostbelt happens for sure.

Nasu is SUPER cagey with his lore until it comes up in the story. IIRC (I wish I could find the interview again, because I SWEAR I saw it) but someone wanted to use Odysseus in a fate story, and Nasu said "no, he's important for lore stuff".

>"no, he's important for lore stuff".
And yet all we have is Circe passive-aggressively bitching about him. Classy.

Circe x Odysseus is best pairing

I mean it fits a little at least, if he is key to some big lore thing that Nasu wants to keep hidden, there would be not a whole lot of reference.

>Not really.
Yes, really. Medea is still a servant and reacts at servant-tier speeds, just in her own dominion. Nobody taught her to fight with a sword, while the GODDESS OF MAGIC taught her to cast spells.
>Massive assumption right there.
A lot of things about the Brunestud fight are assumptions because we don't have any detailed history of it. But vampires tend to grandstand and posture and never go all out from the start.
>And again, why would the guy who's whole schtick is based around jewel sorcery not have a grasp of the gem magecraft principle?
Zelretch has literally one jewel item in his repertoire, why is that "his whole schtick" now? It's never been shown, so there's no reason to assume it. He definitely didn't teach it to the Tohsakas.
>And why would it need a magic circle to use for all instances when its been demonstrated that even an imitation used by Rin didn't need it?
Now again you're crossing your logic. The gem sword just opens a tiny hole to draw mana. It is NOT his ultimate magic ether cannon, which is a magic circle that accumulates magical energy enough to stop a falling moon.
The gem sword is likely used in the creation and operation of that same spell, but at the same time, it definitely isn't a one-bar thing he can use any time, and Medea would hardly let him complete it.

>Gilgamesh was the one who ended AoG
>Actually it was Solomon
>Yeah but it's truly Vortigem's death
>Richard though...
>btw it was A L I E N S who started it
It's funny because the date keeps shrunking, soon AoG wil have actually ended when The Sword of Shannara was written.

desu it mostly reads to me, like Nasu has an idea, but he's trying to keep it hidden from everyone until he gets to write it. So he keeps throwing in the hyperbole everywhere.

>servant-tier speeds
Which are fucking nothing compared to what CMB would be moving at.
> But vampires tend to grandstand and posture and never go all out from the start.
Except for original Arc who just destroyed everything on sight, the one who was by far the closest copy of CMB.

And even assuming the Jewel Sword can't be used to attack in one turn, I'd like to point out that, weakened or not, Zel is still a DAA sired by the Crimson Moon. The last guy who had near enough that treatment needed to be functionally completely annihilated beyond his heels to kill and regenerated instantly afterwards and in his prime needed Arc and the entire backing of the Church to put down. Medea is terrible at ensuring her targets are dead, as Kotomine can attest, so I don't see why Zel couldn't just regen and kill her.

Nasu's a hack who hasn't written anything good since Mahoyo.

Here's how it goes.
>In 12000 BC, Sefar beats some gods the FUCK up. This begins the end of the age of gods.
>In 4000? BC, Gilgamesh turns his back on the gods in favor of humans. The end accelerates.
>In 931 BC, King Solomon dies, and the age of gods enters into an enormous, final decline. It can be said to die here.
>In 700 BC, something unknown happens that ends the age of gods for good, definitively beginning the age of man.
>in 1 AD, something happens that causes mystery to diminish severely. Probably Jesus.
>this lingers until ~500 AD, whereupon Vortigern learns the age of gods can be revived with the destruction of mankind. Vortigern is defeated by King Arthur, and the age of gods is sealed away by Rhongomyniad forevermore. The age of gods can NEVER return from this point on.
>some people still can get tiny fragments of the age of gods, but the time as a whole is done.
>this lingers until 1600s, when the Enlightenment brings along the end of the age of man, and all lingering remnants of the age of gods are purged from the world.
>lastly, in the year 1891 AD, Thomas Edison has proliferated the lightbulb (the destruction of darkness), the phonograph (recording of sound), and the Kinetograph Camera (recording of light), creating a new definition of 'truth', causing mystery to plummet beyond anything ever seen before in a World Faith Domination that revolutionizes what humans accept as real or fake.

>forgetting to mention Tesla.

Though WORLD FAITH DOMINATOR being the thing that fucked magic forever is kino.

Wasn't Vortigen goal to wipe humanity BEFORE they end the AoG for insted of trying to bring it back?

>Which are fucking nothing compared to what CMB would be moving at.
That's totally irrelevant. If Brunestud were using his full speed he'd have destroyed Zelretch too.
>Except for original Arc who just destroyed everything on sight, the one who was by far the closest copy of CMB.
She was programmed by the remaining True Ancestors to never hold back, she had no personality. Brunestud very obviously had personality, dude was basically Dio.
>And even assuming the Jewel Sword can't be used to attack in one turn, I'd like to point out that, weakened or not, Zel is still a DAA sired by the Crimson Moon. The last guy who had near enough that treatment needed to be functionally completely annihilated beyond his heels to kill and regenerated instantly afterwards and in his prime needed Arc and the entire backing of the Church to put down. Medea is terrible at ensuring her targets are dead, as Kotomine can attest, so I don't see why Zel couldn't just regen and kill her.
This is all beside the point. Medea blocked Rin's one-action spells, even if the Gem Sword can be used the same way (it can't, it's literally just a device to gather magical energy, it is not a wand or a mystic code that does anything except open a tiny hole to other worlds) then Medea STILL has a feat that counteracts it directly.
As for being a vampire? It just doesn't matter, all of Zelretch's main offenses have been magecraft-based as far as we know, and Medea just wins there.

He says "the age of mysteries has already ended" and that humans would reject Artoria for that, since a dragon is a thing of mysteries. It's possible the 'age of mysteries' might not be the age of gods, though? Perhaps it was an interim between the age of gods and age of men.

>Aoko if she wanted has nothing stopping her from becoming universal or even multi universal.
*laughs in EMIYA*

ORT ≥ CMB > pretty Arc > Gil > ugly Arc > Zel > Aoko

EMYA is like the most bullshit character powerlevel wise since he scales to the current powerlevel for no fucking reasons. It's like the servant equivalent of Excalibur, just make him as strong as needed to keep the fans.

>sealed away by Rhongomyniad forevermore
So what if you destroyed Rhongomyniad?

The world will be filled with dragons and other shit that was banished to reverse side supposedly.

And how do you do that?

>rgoyiolomyaoad is broken
>Shirou wildly fucking Saber suddenly pops up at Glastonbury

>so king arthur was a red head?
>no, no, she's the king
>who are yoy then?
>I'm the queen

Ea GG.

LMao EA would destroy any arc

Don't be silly.
Archetype:Earth wrecks Gil's shit.

Gray would cry.

In Melty, Archetype Earth offers to eeset the timeline to before even the Gods existed (while keeping Shiki and Ciel safe, because she wants to bone them), she probably can do it

Gil is not aristotle tier, sorry.

What compels people to try and seriously argue Type-Moon powerlevels when the setting is built from the ground up to shit on powerlevelfagging?

Scathach?

>setting is built from the ground up to shit on powerlevelfagging
>Gil still is the strongest HS
>TYPES are still at the top
>True Magics are still busted
Or did you misinterpret powerlevel discussion to "what happens in canon when x fight x"
PL disc. are always based on characters going on all out in a non-rigged battlefield and neutral conditions. That's the fun of it.

>what is solomon

A faggot

a strong faggot

she likes to fuck little boys? need source for this.

it's a trick, it's because only virile young guys have the glandular power to keep up with her insatiable PEAK PERFORMANCE level. an unwitting side-effect of reaching into the future to grasp her maximum values was accidentally taking on the turbo-horny lust of an aged milf in heat.

>Type-Saturn
Why was he nerfed and is there a type-earth? google didn't pull anything up for a type earth.

100 % Arc is type earth techically.

Nasu described Mercury as "unfair jrpg secret boss character" so that's why.

Nerfed no. Saturn got solo-ed by Ado Edem. Their fight still wrecked an entire continent tho.
No Type-Earth, but there's an Archetype, which is a similar thing

She has kids? Is she also a milf in fate go? or is this only irl folklore?

Only in irl folklore. She gives Cu the "friendship of the thighs" and becomes mother of his son

What do women see in Soujuurou?

I googled that and ended up getting to a person called Altrouge Brunestud? Apparently Ciel think its another entity in Arc's body but she it's not? It just when Arc has fully awakened can she the first true ancestor with the name Brunestud come out? I'm not going to read the whole wiki page but I imagine some shit happened and she had to go into slumber for a long time so another consciousness was formed in the same body, that being Arc?That sucks for Saturn then.

Altrouge is Arcuied's sister.
Crimson Moon is the first TA and the Type-Moon, that can still posses his descendents (as long as they have a reaaonably high powerlevel)

>Grand Servant
How do you not feel pathetic when the only thing you can bring is a class of people artificially made super duper strong by the fucking planet to beat one golden boy

>wow that guy I just tried to kill just helped me beat a thing that would make 99% of magus shit their pants no question asked
>wow that guy would have accepted to be killed because he didn't want to wake me up, also made me tea
>can cook
>will punch 3000 years old elemental for you and make them fall in love with him
Literally why would anyone not want him?

maybe if gil qualified as a grand archer i'd take him seriously but the fact that he doesn't means there are stronger archers out there

>the fact that he doesn't
Wow, I'm so honored to meet you Nasu. But you sure you want to drop spoilers like that buddy? You have to think of your company!

Gil became a Caster despite the fact he couldn't cast any spells himself to prove that Solomon and Merlin were full of shit. The Grand title isn't that grand.

We don't even know what qualifications you need for grand archer position. Gil might as well have more combat strength than hero who occupies grand archer slot when they're both in regular archer containers, but he might just lack some skill necessary to be grand archer.

>Became a caster
shakespere is a caster it means nothing
if he qualifieed as a grand caster maybe then

He's too muscular to be attractive

No, that's the point. It does mean nothing. "I can't cast spells" Gilgamesh was as good a Caster as Grand Caster Solomon and "basically a Beast" Merlin.

All you need to do to become a Caster is to be able to setup a Workshop.
Which is a fancy word for "Place where magic happens more than outside". I.e Shirou's shed in FSN if you did something to make it more magical.

Gil can do that just fine, even more so fine if his summon characteristics isn't as skewed. All Servants are dicked by their container class. ALWAYS.

Attached: Japan_height11_FSN.jpg (2500x1607, 482K)

t.Shiki
don't worry, I'm sure Aoko had a thought for you when she was chilling drinking tea with Shizuki.

>Gilgamesh was as good a Caster as Grand Caster Solomon and "basically a Beast" Merlin.
no

>She gives Cu the "friendship of the thighs" and becomes mother of his son
Given what her thighs look like in Fate I am now insanely jealous of Cu.

how much would the einzberns charge for a homonculus

>btfo Alciked
>dabbed on magicuck
>only servant with a kill on a beast
He's having his comback, next he will defeat a highschool student.

About tree fiddy.

Why are there so many threads of this lately? Was it translated?

The Einzbern have the money multiplying ring from Wagner's opera. Thley don't need money.

It was Aife who bore Cu a son (Connla), Scathach just fucks her students as part of their rite of passage.

No, a /jp/ user called the existing partial translation out for being complete dogshit a year ago and the translator quit 24h later.

>she hasn't shown anything close to Magic
>In case you're basing yourselves on some bullshit Mahoyo
>can't even assume what is the near magic she uses
>>>/FGO/ casual.

Hope you don't mind the poke, but what does Bounded Fields do, or how do you set them up?

(I'll be honest, the idea sounds really cool, but I don't get the mechanics of it. Is it just a field of "I can alter reality however I want"? How does it work?)

Link? That sounds hilarious

i thought she just fucked great warriors, Fergus REALLY wants to sleep with her but never got the chance despite being one of her students

What?

>Why are there so many threads of this lately?
That's the first one I've seen in years though?

Shirou doesn't come close. He's closer to TShiki who's a nerf'd Rshiki without the 3rd personality. Archer would get wrecked by Arc on a normal day.

Even full moon Arc who has no lines of death doesn't compare to Archetype Earth which has no lines of death to begin with because it has no concept of death or no predetermined time to expiration isn't immune from getting killed by 3rd persona. Melty Blood had an ending where RShiki meets AE and she see no lines so some might assume she has no shot.
youtube.com/watch?v=_aCe_2ao5oc

Goes past most casuals, but it's based on a lot of stuff Nasu long ago about how 3rd persona can kill concepts and technically can do bogus "rephrasing things relative to death". Ending implies that if they fought 3P would still have a shot since she can "kill AE's perfectness which knows no concept of death" to make her know death before killing her.

They ain't Nasu's waifu. Also 3rd don't appear often and has hasn't actually done really bogus b.s. beyond a few moments in spiral paradox where she was killing concepts and non-physical existences.

KnK should have covered it. She lost it in one of her fights. She later just uses a Touko prosthetic with a knife in it.

>youtube.com/watch?v=_aCe_2ao5oc
Ah yes, there was time Nasu could write scripts like that. Sure miss it.

she is pretty weak right?