Can she beat Gilgamesh?

Gilgamesh is the ultimate jobber, so yes

Isn’t the dark shadow on its own less competent than what Gil fought? It was Sakura herself and she just awakened further after Gil almost killed her.

No

There's like 6 or so servants that can kick her ass just in the Zero and F/SN

No, it wasn't Sakura herself. That was the shadow, and solely the shadow. The first kill of Sakura is Shinji.

Gil has little to no demonstrable skill in sword wielding. Anyone can beat him if you get past his cheap as fuck sword spamming.

King of Jobbers

Really, that much? Gil, maybe Herc, Cu (if he uses Gae Bolg from get go), who else?

Lore wise? Fuck no
In character? Most likely

An overweight child moving at a brisk jog carrying a stapler and tripping at the right moment could beat Gilgamesh.

Maybe, but you'd have to dedicate at least five paragraphs as to how amazing and important that stapler is first.

It's fucking fate, anyone can beat anyone if plot demans it

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>There's like 6 or so servants that can kick her ass just in the Zero and F/SN
Karna is not from there.

if she doesn't have the mask on and catches him off guard then maybe

ea gg

can Gil beat Buddha if he tryhards?

>who trivializes his existence.
Based secondaries. Sakura would've gotten curbstomped if Gilgamesh wasn't his usual dumbass self, which he wouldn't be if Artoria is there as well. The shadow was straight up afraid of him and limited its killing spree as a result.

Not him but while what you said its true, the shadow can use sakura's powers when puppeting her. In movie it ate GoB with imaginary numbers

The only way gilgamesh can defeat the shadow is by using EA, and the shadow can eat him a hundred times while he is casting EA

Ea isn't necessary, Gilgamesh has anti-regeneration and kills immortals (Gorgon) far stronger than the shadow. Sudo is the biggest Sakura cocksucker around. The only reason she survived is because Gilgamesh turned his back on her like the jobber he is.

Salter isn't even that impressive most of the servants could kick her ass. For that matter why didn't Illya just use a command seal to power berserker up?

Why would he need Ea? Gilgamesh has other nukes he can use on the fly. Lightning and 1000s of NPs he can deploy at once. Read SF if you want to see what no-bullshit Gilgamesh can do.

No. Buddha is the strongest known servant along with Kiara.

They should just rename the Fate series into "Saber" since they can't stop themselves from always having one or more Saberfaces in them.

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>Gil has little to no demonstrable skill in sword wielding.
Play CCC or read SF, tertiarybro.

Every time

He actually did very well against Saber in CQC in the encounter in Fate route where his name is revealed.

>Movie
>The same movie that didn't even remember how God Hand worked and completely rewrote canon.
No.

Karna had a hard time against Vlad, and had to retreat.

Herc is straight up weaker than her in a direct fight. Only Gilgamesh can beat Dark Sakura powered Alter in FSN

No, the most significant way Alter differs from the usual is in trading some agility for raw strength. She's never going to be able to overpower Enuma Elish anyways, so she'll just get killed faster this way.

Of course, that's assuming she's operating mostly independently of Sakura a la the end of Heaven's Feel. Having any sort of connection to Sakura's pool of mana would utterly overwhelm Gil.

No it wouldn't. Excalibur even with Sakura's mana pool mainly gives Saber the advantage of spamming her attacks and mana burst. It doesn't make her suddenly strong enough for Gil to give a shit and her feats aren't nearly as good as his either. Worse, Sakura is strong because she's grail connected. Gilgamesh has a grail too.

Sakura's brain at the moment was like a kindergartener playing with a toy totally asleep and she beat him. She didn't even know she absorbed him on instinct until she was treated the next day.

Though let's be honest, she is a tough SOB, she got head shotting, legs amputated, arms cut off, and still didn't wake up or even scream. People say Shirou can take it, but dude cries out from less.

Sakura didn't beat him. The Dark Shadow beat him. Sakura was simply the host who's brain was shut off, and who's body was controlled by an outer force.

>Sakura's brain
Based speedreader, it was the shadow. Sakura was still asleep, it is operating for her.
>Though let's be honest, she is a tough SOB, she got head shotting, legs amputated, arms cut off, and still didn't wake up or even scream
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Gilgamesh would have murdered her if he wasn't a careless oaf. Sakura with all her mental faculties, would have gotten killed by Rin if that's what the latter wanted.

Play the VN.

I mean, you're correct in the sense that most of the work is being done by the grail mud and not Saber herself, but however little sense it would make when she could use it on herself, Sakura could easily pump the whole thing into Saber's incarnated body and blast a nuke equivalent to several dozen entire Servants' worth of prana. Also
>Gilgamesh has a grail too
What the fuck are you on about? His "I possess all things" horseshit is mostly for show. He possesses neither the knowledge nor skill to effectively use most of the crap in Babylon, and either way, if he had the modern definition of the Grail, a massive source of mana, he wouldn't have needed to do any scheming in the fifth war. I don't recall what you're citing either.

Though if we're honest, Gil is only as good as his treasures. AM got most of the effectiveness from Sakura's power bring versatile, just with a lot of energy behind it, and since Sakura's soul and circuits were played with to become the grail, you might as well say that it's just an authority she got by virtue of potential. Like you would take away the vampire bits from a vampire lord and critique him on his merits when he was human, you have to say the grail stuff is a apart of Sakura. Gilgamesh was a dude who was half god but most of the stuff he brings to bear are presents or artifacts he just gets just because outside of himself.

>I mean, you're correct in the sense that most of the work is being done by the grail mud and not Saber herself, but however little sense it would make when she could use it on herself, Sakura could easily pump the whole thing into Saber's incarnated body and blast a nuke equivalent to several dozen entire Servants' worth of prana. Also
Again, not how it works. Servants have containers, there is a cap on their power. Karna wasn't all of a sudden vastly more powerful than he ever was because he got connected to the grail's infinite energy. There are servants who get the same buff Alter did throughout grand order and are as strong as Alter at base, yet they are still mid-boss level stuff that can be trivially dealt with.
>His "I possess all things" horseshit is mostly for show
Are you an ok? Play CCC. Gilgamesh's arsenal is very literal and is manifested in Collector EX. He's got a damn FTL spaceship in there.
>if he had the modern definition of the Grail
Play Babylonia. He literally gives you a tangible grail. One that was said to be able to remake the world early on in the story. Goddesses were fighting over it.

>if he had the modern definition of the Grail, a massive source of mana, he wouldn't have needed to do any scheming in the fifth war. I don't recall what you're citing either.
Oh boy, this is some strong secondary vibes. Gilgamesh, at no point ever, even in Zero, cared about the holy grail. I recall him saying he already had it, but disliked other servants fighting for his possessions. In FSN, what Gilgamesh wanted was the humanity's evil, the avenger mud in the grail to purge humanity and leave only the strongest. It had nothing to do with the grail itself, but the corruption contained within.

We also know Gilgamesh has a grail from grand order. Not just any grail, but a grail filled with ether from the age of gods, making it far more potent stuff than you'd find in modern times.

I have gone through it, for the 50th time just recently, and for that matter I am saying that AM and Sakura are almost one at that point, which is a plot point and is not me implicating her when I say "she beat him". However then point of fact is he knows about AM intimately, being given a body here, he was fairly dispatched, no plot contrivance. Remember, in Zero he was melted down to no body by AM, and just rolled a charisma check to avoid being absorbed do it gave him a body and he lost that check here. Even if Nasu says he was digested in haste, he was still digested, period. As for the battle with Rin, if she had just made the entire floor lava, she could have beaten Rin, jewel sword or no. If you want to scream plot contrivance but don't cite that Sakura literally doesn't use half of her powers she demonstrates earlier so Rin can look cool with Zelretch, I dunno what to tell you. The bad endings even say Sakura can make autonomous clones of herself that not only are shown when she sends a familiar to see Rin and Shirou early that night, but there is also a shout out to it in Unlimited Codes.

>if she had just made the entire floor lava
How would she do this? Rin has walked through grail mud before, and Sakura definitely wasn't holding back when she threw dozens of noble-phantasm monsters at her. If you say "Sakura could have won if she did X", then you literally say the same for Gilgamesh. Except we know Gilgamesh actually can win through X, but not for Sakura.

He literally has a Grail, retard.

>No plot contrivance
>Gilgamesh
Gilgamesh isn't a character in FSN, he's a fucking plot device. Everything involving him is a plot contrivance. He's there to mow down the enemy and get rid of the garbage, or job to be removed from the story. Nasu stated in his interview that Gilgamesh was a late-entry and that Archer would have been the only one. Gilgamesh jobbed because of his carelesness, not because the shadow was in any way comparable to him. If you actually played FSN, you'd have known through Kirei's "Prophecy" saying exactly that Gilgamesh's tendency to underestimate his foes would be what would do him in.

>Using Grand Order as a universe-changing lore source
As if a throwaway game material reward for fucking gacha players has the power to change the lore of the entire franchise. They simply weren't thinking. The same goes for all the supposedly high-tier midbosses and event singularity threats that get steamrolled. Fights in FGO have none of the description or nuance typical of the early franchise, they're just brainless powerlevel comparisons that ignore all logic regarding skills and NPs.
Notice how I didn't mention Zero at all, because I agree with his actions there. I was more referring to his following Kotomine's instructions even when he disagreed in the fifth war and requiring mana from children to remain manifested in the world. If he had a fucking grail, he wouldn't need to do that.

>As if a throwaway game material reward
>Literally the biggest lorebomb Nasu has made in over a decade. Is also 90% story and lengthier than FSN at this point in story.
>D-Doesn't count, It's fucking GACHA!
>Even though it literally supports what Gilgamesh has been saying all along.

>Notice how I didn't mention Zero at all, because I agree with his actions there. I was more referring to his following Kotomine's instructions even when he disagreed in the fifth war and requiring mana from children to remain manifested in the world. If he had a fucking grail, he wouldn't need to do that.
...Play the VN. Gilgamesh never needed Kirei's children. He even said he could keep himself manifested (he has Independent Action at a stupidly high level after reincarnation). He did it because that's what Kirei wanted, because Kirei's a sick fuck. This was stated clearly in Fate route.

>If he had a fucking grail, he wouldn't need to do that.
Yeah, only it's never about what he "needs". Kirei just wanted to torture kids and Gilgamesh went along with it.

>Gilgamesh
>Ever adhering to logic
This is the same Gilgamesh who can see multiple futures but chooses to waste in on card games and chess, but ignores it every other time because 'lol, I'm a king'. I don't think you understand the character.

>The word of these underpaid scriptwriters who care more about money than integrity as highly evidenced by the first 8 months of the game is valid despite introducing plot holes in earlier canon
FGOfags are subhuman
>I was merely pretending to be subservient
You have to accept that letting Gil have access to a grail either creates a plot hole or makes him dozens times more retarded than he's already made out to be, especially considering how many times he jobs to raw strength. That's equally as insulting from a writing standpoint. The easiest and most logical stance to take here is to deny Babylonia, otherwise you're admitting Nasu is ten times the hack the board already thinks he is

The mud gleaned from Shinji in UBW and the mud from Sakura are different not just because of potential, but because Sakura was hooked to the main body of the curse(which is why you ended up with the Shadow in the first place), and Shinji was hooked into the system via another method (Ilya's heart). Sakura lost it and just threw big ass familiars at Rin because she was nuts at that point and about minutes from her mind dying/AM being born which was Zouken's plan to wait until that happened, eat her brain, and take her body but he got fucked before that happened, doesn't mean it wasn't happening. So the plot had her forget she could just teleport via shadows, make the entire cavern floor a bottomless pit(which is how she caught Rin the last time) or just hold Rin via tentacles in the back, with Rin tearing her muscles with each swing of the sword. The narrative even mentioned Sakura was too loony at that point to see Rin was fucking herself using the sword.

>Just rolled a charisma check
Trying to downplay his feats isn't going to help your argument, retard. Sakura had to resort to a sneak attack after he tough her dead, and even then he would have ripped her apart.
Also, Gilgamesh's body didn't melt in Zero. The impurities solidified his spiritual body. AM cannot affect him.

>The word of these underpaid scriptwriters
I would normally agree about this when it comes to FGO, but Babylonia was written by Nasu.

>>The word of these underpaid scriptwriters who care more about money than integrity
Nasu admitted to making Saber a woman and FSN a porn game so it would sell. Butcher called him out on why Saber/Shirou's relationship made no sense and Nasu folded.
Fate never had integrity. Sorry you had to find out this way.

You don't get to decide what is canon and what isn't, secondary bro.

>You have to accept that letting Gil have access to a grail either creates a plot hole or makes him dozens times more retarded than he's already made out to be
Congratulations. Gilgamesh being a prideful retard is the crux of his character. Did it take you this long to figure out? Also
>Subservience
I see no reason why Gilgamesh needs to be subservient to want to sit back and let Kirei do fucked up shit that in no way inconveniences himself.

If you think the conversation about Gil giving the player an extra grail at the end of the singularity lasted more than twenty seconds at the board meeting, you're delusional

I JUST WANT A JESUS SERVANT. FUCK

Because it also makes Kirei retarded. He's sadistic, but he doesn't take unnecessary risk. There'd be no reason for him to funnel mana into Gil if it did nothing.

Shirou literally beat her

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Composite Gil is a literal god slayer

>It's another "what i say is canon!" episode.
About Gilgamesh of all people, the guy whose powerset has been getting retconned for years, even before Grand Order came out (he's actually gotten no buffs in this game btw).

Babylonia was entirely written by Nasu, so Gil having a Grail (which he had previously said he did) is canon.

>but he doesn't take unnecessary risk
PLAY THE VN.
Kirei takes unnecessary risks all the time for shits and giggles. That's why he died to Shirou's sword, the one gave Rin...for shits and giggles. Making people suffer is literally the only joy in his life. It's not "for nothing", it's so he can literally get off to those childrens' pain. How could you play FSN and completely misunderstand the character?

>vlad from romania with max fame boost still gets destroyed by karna

>supposed to have transcendent unlimited precognition
>gets beaten by an amateur teenager magus
King of Jobbers

Call him street lamp king.

because his stupid pride wouldn't let him use the vampiric hax

The main character has to win, please understand.

There was no risk involved from his standpoint, as soon as Shirou was enveloped, there was no way known to Kirei for him to escape the mud. He was taken entirely by surprise. If Shirou had revealed more proficiency as a magus, maybe with some projection shenanigans beforehand instead of flailing about like the amateur he was, Kirei would have switched to Bajiquan immediately.

It's just astonishing how many people are willing to accept characters being retconned into acting stupider and stupider. I'm just gonna call Nasu a hack and be done with it.

I didn't downplay it, I said he could do it at one point, but did not have the option this time. Read Zero, it does in fact say his body was gone and the grail gave him a new one afterward. They even mention while Sakura is dreaming that Gil had the same "smell" as the mysterious thing she is seeing aka the Shadow.

>There was no risk involved from his standpoint
There was no risk involved in keeping those children down there either, seeing as he's gotten away with for years.
>It's just astonishing how many people are willing to accept characters being retconned into acting stupider and stupider.
It's because you assume the characters must behave in logical ways. Gilgamesh is not that, says time and again he is not that, and will willingly walk into a trap and take risks "because he's the king". He does not even mind being defeated if it isn't his battle, as said in CCC when he wouldn't even use his full strength even if it meant his own death.

Gilgamesh is a poorly written character

Personally I didnt hate Gil in fate zero.
Him playing around in fate stay night seemed a bit idiotic tough.

>It's because you assume the characters must behave in logical ways
This is fucking retarded, lack of logical response isn't a character trait. If you go by that reasoning, you could easily have him do any whimsical horseshit and say "He did it because he doesn't make rational responses". Human decisions aren't always made based on objective logic, but in a story, they should have some characterization-based reason at the least.
>will willingly walk into a trap and take risks "because he's the king"
This kind of shit is the birthplace of contrivance. When an author has him do something like this, it's because they couldn't think of an organic reason to do so. It's cancerously poor writing

Why are you trying to discuss about something you haven't read? Gil's Grail played an important part in the story, appearing during the first conversation the player has with him, and later he gives it to Kingu so he could survive.
It wasn't just a cheap way of giving the player a reward.

Also, if you want to suggest a girl who is a bloodied mess on the floor "sneak attacked" him, then that's pathetic. Her power is entirely for use on the supernatural, but she was completely out of it. This was not a premeditated hit, he just bit off more than he could chew and died, live with it. He implied he knew what it was she would become, and he used what he thought was appropriate, things that normally kill other servants. If anyone isn't giving props here, it's you bucko. An unconscious Sakura not even using the fullest bits of her potential not only humiliated him, but ate him and shat him out like bad jerk chicken. Sure it might cause some discomfort on the way out, but it's still ends up the same pile of shit in the toilet.

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What would having alter as a servant be like?
how would you befriend her

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ea at full power could only scratch him. also Buddha isn't a god. just equal to one.

>This is fucking retarded, lack of logical response isn't a character trait. If you go by that reasoning, you could easily have him do any whimsical horseshit and say "He did it because he doesn't make rational responses". Human decisions aren't always made based on objective logic, but in a story, they should have some characterization-based reason at the least.
Gilgamesh is the king, and to him, the king is the absolute authority and the judge. Therefore he does whatever he wants, because anything else would defile the title he holds supreme. Call it shit writing if you want, but that is the justification behind Gilgamesh's rationale, therefore acting like a careless oaf is well in character
Thanks for saving me the trouble

>what is solomon

>An unconscious Sakura not even using the fullest bits of her potential
What the fuck are you talking about? That is NOT Sakura, period. It's the Shadow who is just as effective on servants as it ever could be. Play the fucking game.
>lso, if you want to suggest a girl who is a bloodied mess on the floor "sneak attacked" him, then that's pathetic
He turned his back on the shadow and thought the fight was over. It was his carelesness that did him in, like fucking always.

Shit to Buddha. Buddha has beasts for his arch-nemesis and is a god on a universal scale. Only way Solomon (who is featless for the most part) can compare to him, is if you meant Goetia, who is stronger than Solomon by WoG and like 3 different sources. And if that's who you meant, sorry to say but Goetia isn't a servant.

And solomon has the backup of THE god
only reason he'd lose is if god told him to

Really speaks volumes to the state of this franchise, I don't even know why I try defending it anymore

Pretending to be dead and attacking from behind is very much a sneak attack, regardless if you want to accept it or not. The rest of your post is the rambling of someone who is mad, judging by the language.
You are also ignoring the fact that Nasu said that the Shadow only started moving freely after Gilgamesh was out because it was scared of him.

>And solomon has the backup
No. He has powers given to him by God, which does not make him as powerful as god. This is like saying because curry gods gave Karna cool weapons, they can help him out whenever. But it ain't really Karna you're fighting at that point, is it?

solomon has no will of its own, he is just god's tool
buddha is outmatched here

Well, Kiara got destroyer by him, so if they are comparable I would say he has a pretty good chance.

what was Gil's main mistake when dealing with the shadow?

also, at which point do you think he realized he fucked up hard?

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>solomon has no will of its own
Which is just metaphorical for calling him someone who followed God's orders during life. Again, has no bearing on a dick measuring contest with Buddha, because that too is not the path God set for him when he was alive (also wouldn't have been a servant at that point)
>buddha is outmatched here
Against Big G maybe, not Solomon.
Gilgamesh was weaker than Kiara, said straight up in CCC that formal wear wasn't enough to match her.

It all depends on her Excalibur.

Normal Artoria can shrek him, even Arthur kicked his ass. I'm certain that a normal human with Excalibur could probably kill Gil as well.

>FUCK I left the stove on

>Karna's invulnerable
>activating his NP gets rid of his invulnerability
Why would he ever activate his NP?

post the pic or I don't believe you

Not kill checking.

If karna had a master who sincerely asked him to win this fight he would've won
but he wanted to defeat sieg before his transformation ran out so he went all out for no reason

He isn't invincible, through.

How would you rank all of Gil’s masters in terms of whose the most autistic

Defensive NPs > Offense NPs. You could Ars Almadel Salmonella EX NP with the power to wipe out 3000 years worth of humans someone but a small girl with a B-rank shield can stop your attack.

she still died and galahad might be a grand

No, but she can beat...my heart.

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Avalon which can hard counter Ea.

it hard counters literally anything even mystic eyes desu

>HUMANS CAN'T STAND ON THE SAME LEVEL AS SERVANTS WOAH SERVANTS ARE SUCH STRONG POWERFUL BEINGS
>almost every servant death in F/SN is them being killed by a human

I don't think you're accurately representing this attack in your head, user.
This attack is the equivalent of a large number of Excaliburs being used at once. This attack creates enough power that it can rewrite the genesis of the world, it can wipe out 3000 years worth of humanity.
Now all that power is stopped with one girl with a B-rank shield. Even if Mashu died, the attack was still stopped and even if Galahad is a Grand which we have zero evidence for, (just inductive reasoning) she herself is still just a Demi-servant.

>HUMANS CAN'T STAND ON THE SAME LEVEL AS SERVANTS WOAH SERVANTS ARE SUCH STRONG POWERFUL BEINGS
>kiara happens
I fucking hte that character

>Ishtar has a way of preventing the Gate of Babylon from opening
so much for Emiya being the best natural enemy for Gil

Avalon isn't even that good of a counter. She can't move inside of it, and in the VN it is pretty clearly said that Saber's insticts were telling her she had next to no chance of winning the fight.

Why is Lancelot the strongest KoTR?
What about Saber and Galahad?

People who've killed Gilgamesh
Artoria Pendragon, using both Excalibur and Avalon, fair and square.
A Japanese high school boy, because Gil has too much of an ego to go all out and use Ea against a fucking high schooler.
A Japanese high school girl, because he underestimated what an eldritch monstrosity is capable of.

She doesn't. She picked up the spare key Gil had dropped on the cave.

In mythology, Ishtar was the natural enemy of Gilgamesh and he admitted he would lose to Ishtar in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

>tertiary
The sheath, dude. She kills him with it.

>zero scruples/neuroses
>with all the power of King Arthur

Probably.

yet in the fateverse he can beat her

I think Galahad is stronger but we barely know fuck all about him. Plus it all depends on the source material, Gawain for example is so fucking retardedly powerful in EXTRA and FGO that you have to go 6v1 and still can lose, or you have to do some bullshit to nerf him.

Meanwhile Nero just kills him by going "no u" in Last Encore.

>Why is Lancelot the strongest KoTR?
French Fanfiction

>What about Saber and Galahad?
Saber was never the strongest even in the original myths. Galahad is also french fanfiction.
However within Fate, Lancelot is considered the "Strongest Knight" and Galahad the "Perfect Knight" so I suspect that while Lancelot is just straight up the most powerful, you'd be better off with Galahad in a grail war.

I like how he died so easily against Humbaba after Ishtar stole his key

didn't know it could counter mystic eyes. even ryougi's death perception?
here i thought shiki could kill servants

If you can cover the mana cost, you'll curbstomp almost any war with zerkerlot
galahad seems to lack any true form of offense

Humbaba and a powered up Alcides, after being poisoned and his main NP was disabled. And he isn't even dead.

what do we really know about Galahad other than the fact that he may have Lord Camelot as an NP

Read Le Morte D'Arthur.
Lancelot>>>>>>>>King Arthur

Also himself by overworking.

>galahad seems to lack any true form of offense
He has a sword, he's the son of Lancelot and we've seen him beat motherfuckers with other motherfuckers only busting out his shield to block Excalibur Morgan.
I have zero doubt Galahad has an offense given we know he has a Saber form as well.

he curbstomped hyde/ushi and saber alter in an ova and blocked ex morgan with his NP

how does lancelot die in the legend?
does gawain off him?

He doesn't exist, Lancelot is a Frog OC

I know but still how does he end in the frnch version

No. Gawain fights him two or three times (I can't remember) WHILE GAWAIN IS MADE STRONGER BY THE SUN, and Lancelot is holding back the entire time. Each time Lancelot fights him until his power up runs out, and Gawain begs him to kill him. Lancelot gives him mercy each time. Lancelot doesn't even get killed, he becomes a monk after King Arthur dies and Camelot crumbles down.

>High mana cost
Saberlot exists though

weaker parameters

Short answer: probably not.

Long answer: If she's connected to the infinite magic source that the grail provides, she can leverage it to spam Excalibur blasts, but ultimately, Ea is strong enough to punch through them, especially if Gil is in serious mode. Judging from Saber's personality in Alter mode, she'd likely be uninteresting to him, and he wouldn't be screwing around trying to flirt with her, which doesn't bode well for her. Ultimately, Gil's mana is more limited, but I doubt it would become a factor in the battle.

Literally the worst way to cockblock an all out Gil vs Alcides fight. I wanted to see who would win and Gil was pulling out all sorts of shit we had never seen

you can't arm saberlot with dual HK MP5s

They're already pretty high and he can boost them too.

Why is Ea seemingly less draining that other less powerful NP? It's mana cost never seems to come into play.

Only in a hgw with average tier servants. Any above average or higher will stomp him.

Not that user but yes you can. It's literally a skill he has in Saber class.

are you mad
you'd need an above top servant to pose a challenge to him
anything short of karna isn't gonna cut it

What?
Kekber is considered high tier and she's still weaker than Lancelot.

You probably can, but it's hard to imagine for me. He should also be able to invoke Arondight's true name.

Because Ea is stupidly beyond broken

I know he's better than her in cqc, but can't she just blast him with her sword beam?

>what is ars almanel

Jets uses Arondight Overload in FGO and Extella Link

That's a fucking excellent question.

Ryougi literally taps into the Root when she goes slick slack. But Avalon is 90000% bullshit conceptual no-sell. Can Ryougi destroy Avalon?

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oh. didn't know.

>one thing is stupidly op, therefore something else can’t be

> in FGO
He's using KoH as his NP though. Or you mean one of his attacks in animation update that look similar to Saberlot's NP usage? I'm not sure that counts as Arondight Overload.
Didn't play Extella Link so I'll take your word for it.

EMIYA surely

Doubt.
Lancelot was able to fight Gawain who's outright stated to be stronger than Artoria with Numeral Saint for a whole day

I can't wait for Fate/Requiem to get an FGO crossover so that I can run Mashu and Koharu as Galahad Demi-servants

EA is not so broken though
it's stated in LINK that vasavi shakti can overpower it

Nasu said no such thing. The Shadow, which is an offshoot of Sakura's unconscious mind, AM, and her being the lesser grail, made something that moved while she slept. The only thing Nasu said about the incident was that Sakura (unconsciously) digested Gil in haste to avoid him getting out like he did in UBW before Archer headshotted him. You do know the body can have you do things unconsciously for your preservation, right? Saying something is a sneak attack when the moron knew that AM is an out of control entity is a fallacious argument. Doing a sneak attack means that you have premeditated intent. It's not acting as a hunter, it's just reacting to something that just attacked it. Hell, the Shadow didn't even heal Sakura's body all the way, her organs were still in tatters when Rin found her and it was made to look like she was fixed up from the outside, Rin even says this. If anyone is mad, its Gil fans acting like he got robbed when the guy knew about AM, and acting like a petulant child because his toy wouldn't kill who he wanted, so he went to break it, but he got fucked in the process. I'm not being hyperbolic, that is factually his mindset.

he's tronger than artoria even withuot the sun that 3x his strengh

It's just hard for me to imagine him outright tanking Excalibur if it hits. Dodging it maybe.

A Noble phantasm that requires 3000 years of human history as fuel and insane amounts of planning from an omniscient beign isn't cost efficient

Because it's essentially a divine artifact, it doesn't even count as a "Noble Phantasm" really, it's a step above servants; the only reason Gil can take it out is because Gate of Babylon is a dimension transcending time and he's only accessing it. It doesn't follow any the of conventional "rules" that other weapons have like requiring mana or specific conditions. The grail can't even reproduce a weapon on the scale of Ea. It's the kind of weapon you could use to kill a TYPE. It's very similar to Slash Emperor in both power and how it works, they're both conceptual weapons whose true purpose is to break through false reality and impose the truth of the Earth onto the things they hit.

>it's stated in LINK that vasavi shakti can overpower it
Citation please

Well, he does have a high luck stat and a skill that boosts his luck in combat.

Shut the fuck up, almost nothing you said is true. Ea IS mana intensive, it's just that Gilgamesh doesn't over rely on his master and has a massive mana pool and IA himself. Tamamo literally said he was unrivalled among servants in that regard.

#
I'll have to ask around, you're right, I didn't realize it was a legit question until you pointed that out.

Berserkerlot doesn't have any asspulls or easy I win button, he relies on brute force. Any servant with decent defensive NP/skill should tank his attack.

Shiki can kill servants

Also Shiki > Shiki > Shiki

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>Sakura waifufags secondaries (possibly tertiaries) argue about shit they know nothing about

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No, Gilgamesh is the greatest servant. Excluding (((FGO))) fanfiction bullshit he's by far the strongest and the ultimate chad. Disagree? Don't care.

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It's a shit counter because Saber can't move. Unless Gilgamesh's being fixated on Saber (when he doesn't care about Alter), she's going to die. Also Saber Alter doesn't have Avalon.

>Gilgamesh is the greatest servant
That's fine. We have Extra and strange fake for equal or stronger servants than him anyway.

>can still NP
>keeps his fighting sense
>arondight overload
>can boost his parameters

>divine spirits bow to Gilgamesh
>in contact with Types
>possesses clairvoyance-like abilities
>controls Uruk with a fair but iron fist
>was the first hero ever recorded
>owns all the treasures of the world
>direct descendant of the ancient divine bloodline
>will bankroll the first city-states in Babylonia (Uruk will be the first city)
>all Saint Quartz trace their existence back to his vault
>practices Prima Nocta, 99% of humanity can trace their ancestry to Gil
>first post-humans will look like Gil
>said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in temples of Ishtar & the Cedar Forest
>defeated Huwawa and Gugalanna
>ancient Babylonian scriptures tell of a demigod who will descend upon Earth and bring an era of enlightenment and unprecedented technological progress with him
>founded /fgog/ and /fgoalter/
>you are reading his thread right now
>Gilgamesh is in regular communication with the Director and the Pope, forwarding the word of Gil to the Church and Association. Who do you think set up the meeting between the Director, the Pope and Zelretch (first meeting between the three powers in over 2000 years) and arranged Chaldea's first trip to Babylonia in history literally a few day's travel from Uruk itself?
>learned fluent Japanese in under a week
>judges the dead in the Underworld
>built a wall and made other city states pay for it
>nation states trust their gold reserves with Gil. There's no gold in Ft. Knox, only Ft. Uruk
>He appears about 3 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>in reality, he is a timeless being existing in the Throne of Heroes at all points in time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don't know his ultimate plans yet. We hope he's a benevolent being.

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Excluding fanfiction. Fate Zero is the only good piece from the Franchise series. With UBW being a half decent watch, the rest not worth mentioning.

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>this man got to be in the two most enjoyable Fate spin-offs.
How does one man win so much?

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What's Arondight Overload's gimmick?

Thanks for conceding.

Based.

unapologetically based.

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Why doesn't TM release their VNs on Steam? Even ZUN sells fucking Touhou on Steam.

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>strange fake
>equal or stronger servants than him
Whom, exactly? Pretty sure it's stated Enkidu falls just short of Gil, and Gil is still not using even half of all his bullshit.

They're too greedy to pay for official translations for some reason.

>all the treasures if the world
Except for divine constructs lmao

it's a A rank slash of pure mana

Strange Fake is really good.

So it's just super strong close range slash or it can be used as sword beam against armies? I'm just trying to gauge how good of win button it is.

it's anti army normally but it's single target in fgo for some reason
It's kinda like a getsuga tenshou

Based but how did this get a sticky

What fanfiction did you draw that on? Enkidu is directly equal to Gilgamesh at Gilgamesh's best, while he is far weaker than his prime. He'd stomp Gil as a Berserker.

>stomp
gil says he might be stronger than him as a berserker
Gil might still pull of a win

We have no idea of Enkidu's original abilities. He can counter GoB thanks to his Age of Babylon, a NP that uses the constructs made by the people of that time. That is something he would surely lack in his original form.

>read everything F/SN related when they came out
>thought the old TM powerlevel threads were bad enough
>come back a few years later
>gachafaggots arguing over a fucking mobile game
>literally a sameface slutfest
>can't understand anything
>canon rewritten over and over
>mfw

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Enkidu's original abilities is him + a shitton more divinity. We know Enkidu is the strongest weapon of the gods and in his era (protip, Ea is a weapon). The gods pooled all their power into making him. Gilgamesh is confirmed weaker than both Humbaba and Gugalanna. Gugalanna also being considered a weapon to the point that he qualifies as Ishtar's NP.
>He can counter GoB thanks to his Age of Babylon, a NP that uses the constructs made by the people of that time
No dumb dumb. Enkidu was the original sword spammer. Gilgamesh learned how to do it by copying HIM. Read CCC. Also Age of Babylon is literally just Enkidu's body.

We live in the era of gachashit. Submit or be discarded.

>gil uses enkidu on enkidu
>gg

>>gil uses enkidu on enkidu
>Broken by Herc
Enkidu shows Gilgamesh how Enkidu is actually used.

>I always wondered why berserker came back but now I've realized "after these 12 no god will welcome you" meant he would be human. And thats how he broke the chains. Very cool

Bruh, I have been into TM since 2005. Oddly enough, I have seen the same memeish people like you tell me privately back in the day they hadn't even personally experienced FSN and got their information from arguments on Yea Forums they pieced together. And pretended to be hardcore fans for YEARS. It was so pathetic I couldn't even be mad, it's crazy how much people will delude themselves into trying to belong.

Heracles' divinity is not tied to God Hand.

gay

>gulganna is a weapon because he's ishtar's np
That's retarded. He's a divine beast not a weapon and since ishtar can be a rider she can use it as a np

>He's a divine beast
Divine beasts are used as weapons. Did you not see Medea, Iskandar, etc? Nasu has literally gone on record to describe top-tier divine beasts like Typhon and Moby-Dick as, and I quote, "superweapons". Guess who's called the strongest divine beast?

Medusa*

>The gods pooled all their power into making him.
Citation needed. His birth is pretty much the same as Gil's, their bodies designed by the gods.
>No dumb dumb. Enkidu was the original sword spammer. Gilgamesh learned how to do it by copying HIM. Read CCC. Also Age of Babylon is literally just Enkidu's body.
Enkidu was the dumb dumb before he got fucked by Shamat. What makes you think he could display the ability of creating finely crafted weapons while being an animal?

That is just a way of saying how powerful and dangerous they can be. They aren't literal weapons like Excalibur.

>Citation needed. His birth is pretty much the same as Gil's, their bodies designed by the gods.
No, you retard. Gilgamesh is 2/3rds god and still partially human. Enkidu is 100% divinity in clay form that the Gods believed would act as human, without comprehending what humanity was. Not to mention, you would flat out be admitting Enkidu is superior to Gilgamesh using that logic, because Enkidu is the god's greatest masterpiece (said straight up).

>What makes you think he could display the ability of creating finely crafted weapons while being an animal?
>You need High IQ to chuck mud at people
Because you know, that's literally what Age of Babylon is. Enkidu's body shaped into weapons. Hint: It's still determined by the strength of the body.

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>literal weapons like Excalibur.
What do you think a 'literal weapon' is? I'll tell you right now, Enkidu has always behaved like an animal/person with rational thought, but he's still literally thought of as a weapon and outright called a noble phantasm. I hope you don't think he's like Excalibur either.

why hello there jobber

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Who was it that said people can't be weapons? The definition isn't so narrow.

>A-ALCIDES PLEASE DO 99% OF THE WORK FOR ME

Is she the most spurned woman ever?

Shiro can beat her with fake excalibur

It’s actually more like
>AAAAAHHHH ISHTAR PLEASE SAVE ME I DIDN’T MEAN ALL THE ANTI GOD STUFF PLEASE

That ability has only been shown displayed by Enkidu when he was in his human form. You don't know if he was able to do it when he was a mindless beast.
Even then, losing raw power in exchange of intelligence seems like a benefitial tarde off.

Alcides is turning out to be the biggest disappointment of SF.

i think you're forgetting SHIKI and SHIKI

let's talk about the best servant of SF

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Of course not, Saber Alter is shit. A half dead Shirou beat her with a single technique he imperfectly copied from a servant who isn't even considered a sword master.

Reduced instinct rank fucks her big time since Saber's whole gimmick is almost getting killed and then being saved at the last second by instinct. Without she's just a jobber.

>gets hyped up as some ultimate anti-Gil servant
>everyone thinks he’s gonna steal Ea
>Gil ends up smacking him around until he gets locked out of his powers by literal divine intervention
My disappointment was immeasurable

>That ability has only been shown displayed by Enkidu when he was in his human form. You
Transfiguration is an ability Enkidu naturally possess you fool. That's how his body is made. How do you think he shed off that mud in the first place? All Age of Babylon is turning his body into weapons. His weaker body, replicating human weapons, which are nowhere near the level of divine
>exchange of intelligence
Yeah, because intelligence has always made all the difference. How embarrassing it must've been for gods, grands, Gilgamesh etc to be K.O'd and murdered en masse by a literally lobotomized Tiamat.

Nigger, do you know what divinity is? Getting a bit smarter does not compensate for the ludicrous (this is no exaggeration, we have anecdotes for this) amount of power Enkidu must have lost.

Your fault for thinking serious gil could be beaten in a 1v1

I honestly just want a full adaptation of the fate version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. That would be super fucking cool

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Why did she do it?

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I at least thought it’d be close, granted the lightning dragon Gil pulled out was badass

gil's VA released an audio of it i think

You are discussing about a franchise where fights are rutinely won by lesser opponents. Gilgamesh is a prime example of how raw power doesn't guarantee victory.

How did the fight go exctly?
I haven't read the novel but I follow the manga

Gil and Herc fought, Herc was kinda keeping up but Gil pulled a bunch of ridiculous shit out of GoB like a lightning dragon and Herc couldnt really overcome it. Then Ishtar found the key Gil tossed in the beginning, closed all Gil’s GoB and basically had him fighting without weapons. Herc capitalized and got Gil with a hydra arrow and Gil’s current status is pretty unknown

The dragon thing was against Richard. Alcides Pelt turned out to be useless once Gil started to aim for the gaps.

Oh it was? Honestly I kinda forgot Richard even showed up

Galahad was the "perfect knight" in terms of mentality. Though clearly something really shit happened to him at some point because now he's an asshole he keeps running away from responsibility.

Lancelot is the strongest in terms of martial prowess, but in terms of firepower he falls behind King Arthur. Arondight is an A+ Anti-Unit/Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. Even if he uses Knight of Owner, he'll never be able to make up for that lack of raw power.

Wait richard survived an encounter against gil?
I thought gil was actually trying to win the war

He's a lancer. He can't win at anything

>Gil
>being not lazy enough to try at anything
Also I think Alcides ended up being more of a pressing issue

There’s Galahad Alter as a saber

but he likes his master and is motivated by enkidu's presence

He tolerates the brown loli but she hasn’t really won him over yet

Not necessarily. Unless Arondight can wipe out all of Heracles' lives at once, that's a pretty bad matchup. Also, there are swordsmen who are outright better than Lancelot. And as far as I can tell, Lancelot is powerless against Ozymandias.

By the way he talked to her in the casino and the hotel room he seems quite fond of her by his standards.

Except for when it does. I'm discussing a franchise where fights are won by plot contrivances and deus ex machinas. Gilgamesh is not an example of "raw power wins". He's an example of a character who DOESN'T use all his raw power to win and loses in the stupidest ways as a result. Even an animal has the instinct to go full force.

Do we already have enough Knights of the Round for a full on KotR-only Grail War?

I think it was more “I’ll give her a chance we’ll see how she does”. I seem to remember him saying that if she disappoints him he’ll just replace her

Gilgamesh likes kids. He's always been friendly with them. As far as he's concerned, it's okay for children to make mistakes and act like children. It's once they grow up into adults where he starts to become more strict in his standards.

We have enough Saber clones for two. But for the most part, yes

Saber, Mord, Lancelot, Gawain, Bedivere, Tristan and Galahad

>There's swordsman that are betetr than lancelot
If you mean jap autists lancelot literally has a skill that prooves he's the betetr swordsman of the era and and arondight would anihilate any of those faggots

So can he beat Arc?

But can he break the laws of physics with nothing but sheer autism? In terms of raw technique, Sasaki Kojiro is probably the best swordsman in all of Fate.

>implying he can beat TWO

Buddha is only that powerful in the Moon Cell.

He's literally weaker than musashi

Musashi has those hax mystic eyes that let her cut anything she wants.

>Artoria
>Galahad
>Lancelot
>Bedivire
>Tristan
>Gawain
>Mordred
>Agravain
>Gareth

Problem is if anyone qualifies as caster and assassin.

Where did you pull this out from? Buddha is a god of universal scale as said in materials. He doesn't need shit from the moon cell. The reason why BEAST and CCC Kiara are so strong is that they're literally trying to emulate him.

In the Moon Cell, gods are almighty. They're able to fully emulate the scopes of their myths within its digital environment. On Earth, gods don't have that kind of power. A solar deity cannot control the sun and a Bodhisattva is not omnipotent. Arcueid is still a rank above all divinity, including Buddha.

LMao no she's not

>Can X beat Gilgamesh?
Without shit writing the answer is always no.

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It's outright stated that something born from the Earth cannot destroy the Earth. Thus a god who can wipe out the solar system cannot exist.

>In the Moon Cell, gods are almighty
No, retard. The shit I'm talking about has nothing to do with the moon cell. Buddha also isn't a divine spirit, which Arc is compared to (literally no divinity). He is a god, there's a difference.
>Arcueid is still a rank above all divinity, including Buddha.
Arcueid would get raped by Tiamat. Also rank isn't about power. Stheno and Euryale are a rank above Gilgamesh but lol at them being anywhere near his equal.

But wouldn't that conceptual protection be exclusive to Earth? If you took a random solar system, couldn't he bust it?

Yes. Earth is more than just a mud ball. CF specifically grants it conceptual defenses. Including mental ones

how strong is full power EA?

Depends on which Gil. Old Gil would cream all over her like the filthy whore that she is.

No.

Output is a little greater than Excalibur, but the Anti-World attribute grants it a boost so Excalibur can only barely mitigate its damage.

>little greater
are you mad

The old descriptions make little sense, but they still exist.

Artoria could be assassin because of her shadow dagger or whatever. Merlin could be the caster. He isn't a knight, but whatever.

>The sword that cuts and divides the World, with output matching or even exceeds Artoria’s Excalibur. Its power will further increase given the support of Noble Phantasms within Gate of Babylon.
>The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called “Enuma Elish”, and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur.

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Huh, wonder why excalibur seems so power creeped but ea doesnt

What? Excalibur has been doing the power-creeping. It's absolutely ridiculous now. It can one-shot things as strong as beasts at full power.

Are there that many NPs that are stronger than Excalibur in raw power though?

He's the literal mary sue of the arthurian legends.

ARS ALMANEL

I don't think anyone would complain if Merlin snuck in for the caster spot. Assassin is probably impossible, though.

Excalibur was always crazy-powerful. It's just that the original Fate/stay night does a poor job of showcasing that.

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CCC says that each of EA's spinning plates has enough force to move continents.

Wasn't Excalibur's output 200?

>maximum target 1000 people

>oneshots alexanders entire army which is at least 10000

Citation needed

Ea rips through reality marbles like paper though

Don't be silly user.
It can target up to 1000 Worlds. Ot's an anti-World weapon after all.

Yes, and Gilgamesh falls in love with her because of it.

VN didn't give any numbers except that screenshot I posted. Maybe you're pulling that figure from parametr sheet that says that A rank is equal to 50, A+ to 100 and so on?

People keep treating that as if it's absolute.

Yeah, that must be it.

It was described ultimate slash appearing as line of light but concentrated at the tip of the blade. So I guess VN tried to show how it's crazy powerful but concentrated at smaller area.

Fate/hollow ataraxia also wanks the shit out of Invisible Air. She was able to create an impenetrable barrier of wind around the entire building for a brief moment. Also, in Fate/Extella, it became a miniature typhoon that blows entire groups of enemies away. I don't know how you can describe that as Anti-Unit anymore.

It's surprisingly versatile. She even uses an Anti-Unit version against Gilgamesh.

>O MY TRACED WEAKER AIAS THAT CAN PARTLY BLOCK EXCALIBUR

It also makes sense for her to use it that way since she wouldn't want to nuke the city.

It was incomplete Aias + Bellerophon. The two of them together was able to tank Excalibur, though Rider was out of commission for a while in spite of that. It's an all-or-nothing desperation move where you stick a shield in front of a missile in the hopes it might be able to survive a kill sat.

Bellerophon did most of heavy lifting in that clash and still had 90% of it offset by Excalibur. And Aias is consistently portrayed as very strong shield with Archer blocking Gae Bolg and incomplete version blocking Hrunting.

Aias is explicitly strong against projectiles. Beams probably don't count. That's why it tore through the four petals so easily. Combined with Bellerophon, it was just barely enough to not die, and even then the pegasus was pretty much gone and Rider was half-dead.

>partially blocking a B rank NP is impressive

Archer apparently projected it to save Shirou's ass when Gil was flexing Ea.

Impressive enough to tip the scales in Bellerophon's favour.

That was the full version. Seven petals, each with the conceptual fortification of a fortress wall. Seven fortress walls were completely demolished by Enuma Elish but it was just barely enough to keep Shirou alive.

Uh, not really, all he does is block her blows with his armor, he doesnt actually fight her in melee.

glad my copypasta is being used, it never seemed popular

No, but she can.

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He has a fair amount of those too

>lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 98/
>The weapons the enemy takes are different from the previous dark red sword.
>The first is an invisible sword like Saber's.
>As soon as Saber defends against it, the man is holding yet another sword.
>She twists her body to avoid it, but the space the sword goes through freezes.
Saber retreats, covered in ice.
>As the ice starts to break, the enemy holds a sickle-like weapon.

Ea ain't shit, gets overpowered by a little girl with a magic wand

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bit early to call her the best when the only thing she has done so far was punch alcides once and then disappear

youtube.com/watch?v=67njJLl4sRM

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>Sir Lamorak was considered the third best Knight after Lancelot and Tristan.
I feel bad for Gawain at this point.

It just means that there are very few Noble Phantasms that can get through multiple fortress walls without having some of its damage mitigated.

>He'll never make up for that lack of raw power
Nice headcanon.
He fought equally with someone with more raw power than (NS Gawain) Shitber till sundown.

king arthur's story is 90%+ fanfiction, mostly french. i wouldn't feel too bad about it because it's a complete mess of so many overlapping stories shitty authors kept adding their own original characters on top of like lancelot etc

You guys just dont fucking get it, Gil is the gun in rock paper scissors. He is a win all against ALL servants. His sole gimmick is being the oldest, strongest hero. There isnt a single servant that can beat him. The only way gil loses is to bullshit like the shadow or an autist with way too much plot armor. He is never in danger against another servant, no matter how resilient, strong or agile they are. This is shown so many times but because he got beat by archer WHO IS NOT EVEN TECHNICALLY A HEROIC SPIRIT he is constantly questioned.

>Gil is the gun in rock paper scissors
So not worth considering because he doesn't exist within the rules of Rock Paper Scissors?

AND DONT EVEN FUCKING START TALKING ABOUT THE DUMB LIZARD, EXTRAVERSE ISNT CANON

Thats the thing, Gil is ABOVE the rules. You're right he isnt worth considering. That is because considering implies critical thought. Thought is unnecessary when discussing Gil's power level because the answer is always the same: Stronger Than You.

I mean if you're going to play this seriously then I'll be genuine about my response.
Gilgamesh losing to Archer automatically disproves any argument you try to make because saying "He's the strongest" and then losing to EMIYA shows us that Gilgamesh isn't the hot shit he is purported to be.

What the fuck is this retarded wankery with literal power levels, dudes? Ea is the sword that's supposed to represent the creation myth and a time before the world even came into existence, it's ANTI world, while Excalibur is only anti-fortress.

If you think Excalibur is on the same level as Ea you've never read the VN, Gil literally pancakes Artoria with it once after they clash the two swords together and he gets bored of limiting its power to match Excalibur. She needs a literal asspull that transports the owner outside the world to stand a chance.

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Why do I get the strong feeling you havent read the visual novel?
That was from THE PREVIOUS holy grail war, He had been being fed mana from orphans being stored under Kirei's church. A fairly meager source of mana. So gil was effectively unable to amass even half his strength. Inb4 D-doesnt count

Yeah, but that just means he excels at 1vs1 combat. He can't bring down a fortress with his power alone. If he were to fight Ozymandias or Semiramis (with her fortress set up), he'd be the underdog. He can't destroy those fortresses with any of his Noble Phantasms, and if he enters them he'll have to deal with shit like poisons or divine beasts. And if he can't beat Heracles in one shot, he'll have a harder and harder time.

The whole physical form thing and maintaining himself in his youthful appearance was the only reason he was able to keep on with it

so EA can destroy the world?

yes

What did you suppose anti world meant?

No I get your point. But if you have to argue that a man with access to every weapon and clairvoyance is the most powerful and then they lose then the burden here is that Gilgamesh isn't as good as purported.
In theory Gilgamesh should never lose if he has access to GoB and Clairvoyance, if your personality is so fucking terrible that a small Japanese man can take you out, then no matter how strong you are, you're not actually that strong.
If servants were explicitly just stats with zero ego, I would agree to your point but I cannot.

How about her? Could she defeat Gil?

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>anti army NP can't destroy a shield
I didn't expect much

Weird, i dont remember that part. What I remember is that Gil blocks with his armor and Saber starts wondering if his NP is the armor, then Gil backs off and says that his armor doesnt often give out and praises Saber's sword.

The sword itself might be able to, but not in Gil's hands. He has nowhere near enough mana and the Counter Force would fuck him hard. If some entity that had sufficient mana was able to use it properly it might be able to strip the entire surface of the Earth of life. It still wouldn't kill the planet, but it would kill the world.

What are you talking about?

So enkidu is the absolute best servant you can summon for a HGW right?
he has infinite man and will obey you while being the pinnacle of strengh in servants

I get where you're coming from honestly.He SHOULD be the strongest servant. Yeah that is about how it goes, if not for his ego and general attitude then he would be but honestly I like that way better, More like an attempted mary sue. Like he has all the makings of a mary sue but he squanders some of it and in the end it humanizes him a bit more, even if he is still a shit person.

but you have to be a dog to summon him

>expecting the counter force to be somewhat competent
also gil having mana issues would be a first

Solomon is what you want because he's too stronk. Alternatively, Artoria is unironically a really good choice because you get invincibility as long as you don't get hit too hard, Avalon will heal you.

What about those Outer Gods? They aren't from our solar system and are pretty wanked

It doesn't. A weapon born from the world can't destroy the world. The "Anti-" in the attributes Anti-Unit, Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress, etc., etc., doesn't mean that they uniformly destroy those things, but rather that they target them. An Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm targets single units, but it doesn't necessarily destroy them. There are many Anti-Unit NPs that have nothing to do with destruction or killing. And by that same token, an Anti-World Noble Phantasm is not "one that destroys the world" but "one that targets the world". But something that targets the world cannot destroy it. If it can be destroyed, it's probably a false world to begin with. It's very much possible for there to be an Anti-World Noble Phantasm that can't even destroy an ant.

The one exception is the Anti-Fortress attribute, which is only applied to Noble Phantasms with extraordinarily high destructive power. An Anti-Fortress power is simply a cannon that is more powerful than a destruction-oriented Anti-Army Noble Phantasm of a similar rank.

Avalon is not part of package normally.

but artoria isn't summoned with avalon

If you want to win you need a catalyst since that's how you get the strongest servants, if you don't have a catalyst you'll just end up with a shitter.

He's competent in melee when he wants to. Of course he's not full power Saber or Heracles tier, but sword spamming is not the onlt thing he can do with his weapons.

you get assigned a servant with whom you'd be compatible
thier strengh is irrelevant to the summoning

Avalon is not the only catalyst you can use to summon Artoria. And I'd imagine it's hard to obtain the sheath for average magus.

he wasnt trying in the fight with shirou until it was too late. i know it sounds like im making excuses for him but thats how it was

What's a servant that could love a loser but isn't mad?

But God Hand worked perfectly fine in the movie.

Love as in end up in a romantic relationship with you or love as in would follow orders and win the war for you

If you swapped out Herc by Gilgamesh in that Heaven's Feels 2 movie fight, I give it to her. Remember, she can fucking spam that Excalibur like nothing and Gilgamesh isn't one to pull Ea at the very beginning of a fight, it's more of a trump card but I don't imagine him surviving long enough those giant forest-castle-destroying blasts. She was a fucking DBZ character there with a ton of power and speed and infinite energy. At the very least it'll be a hard fight.

both but mostly the first one

If Gil entered the fight with the intention of winning immediately, he would absolutely stomp with bullshit like 1000+ GoB item spam or Vimana + magical nukes. But that's not Gilgamesh.

Enkidu, Sigurd or Solomon are the absolute best you want for various reasons.

Hassan of Serenity, if you have poison resistance for some reason. She'd fall for anyone she can get close to without killing.

and if I don't want to die?

>Forget it gives nigh perfect resistance to the point of immunity to what kills him
No. No it didn't.

Enkidu is a fantastic choice, especially if you're a shit magus. He can replenish his own mana, has no outright weaknesses apart from wasting disease, can shift his stats, can heal himself as long as he's not stuck in a Reality Marble, can control the land and nature around him, span divine clay weapons, can restrain divine opponents, can transform to all sorts of magical doodads with one example being a magical wish-granting device (granted, you'd need Grail levels of mana so it's not really feasible) and most of all he doesn't might fighting all out from the get go.

>sigurd
is he that strong?

>he has infinite man
GAY

Apex Saber like Siegfried, incredibly versatile with Rune magic, very intelligent with Fafnir glasses. But the clincher is that this guy is 100% economical. He's a fully functional servant that doesn't need a master for support and sustains himself thanks to dragon mod. You could be a shitter and he'd still be top-tier. Also is actually a hero and won't stab you in the back if you're not a cunt.

She killed him a different way every single time. Sword slash, beam explosion, actual explosion and fire, Excalibur beam which we know know takes off a minimum of 5 lives on it's own.

He needs a Master to act as his anchor.

Mata Hari

>sustains himself
Wtf? Saber and siegfried both have dragon mod and they don't have mana gen

Siegfried or Sigurd? Aren't they different?

Where's this said.
>○Dragonkind Modification: EX
>Due to him swallowing a dragon's heart, he has achieved the ultimate Self-Modification.
A dragonkind mana reactor core is formed, thus it is possible to act almost independently as a Servant.

Saber's dragon reactor was offline when she was summoned by Shirou. It's back online again once Shirou reboots it by sacrificing some of his circuits.

A Servant is something that isn't supposed to exist in this world. Without a Master tying them down, they'd be erased by the world. An anchor is absolutely vital for a Servant to maintain their existence. It doesn't matter if they can generate their own mana. It doesn't matter if they have an infinite amount of energy. Their very existence is contradictory to reality. That's why anchors are necessary.

>She killed him a different way
Saber used mana burst multiple times on Herc when they should have stopped damaging him after the first strike. The fire WAS the mana burst. Artoria has no flame skill.

She caused an actual explosion unlike the first time. Otherwise it would've just been the same purple beams from earlier. You'll notice after the flame explosion she actually managed to burn Herk to death that time.

>A Servant is something that isn't supposed to exist in this world.
Except for when they can via high level of independent action, independent manifestation or similar bullshit. If the world later tries to correct them, then so be it. My point is Sigurd does not need a master to operate in a grail war.

SABER BTFO
>Never the servant
>Never drew a yen
>Never had a good story before Zero and even then was carried by vastly superior characters
>Never had a memorable speech
>Never put anyone over
>Main character of the worst route in the original VN
>Only the 3rd best romance option
>Only the 7th best servant in Stay/Night and Zero
>Only the 12th best member of The Knights of the Round Table
>Her group the Knights of the Round Table were utterly BTFO by one retard
>Her Man cosplay was cringeworthy
>Her knight cosplay was cringeworthy
>Shit taste in food
>ugly
>Cuck
>Failed at being a king so badly that she resorted to hiding in an magical field
>Only significant achievement was being summoned by an autistic child
>Somehow the biggest jobber in a series that contains Gilgamesh
>Can only hold her own because she's a stat stick
>Can only win in a fight because the Grail gave her precognition
>Still struggles to beat some random nobody whose only power to swing a sword really hard at birds
>Always takes the bait, endangering both self and master
>Is the VN equivalent of that one insufferably mediocre whore whose sole professional """""""achievement"""""" is sucking off someone with actual talent
>spent the latter part of her career being replaced by clones of herself with actual personalities

You're being rude

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s*ber m*rk seething

Arondight can sword beam, Lancelot just chooses not too because it's waste in 1v1.
It's literally thr second strongest KoTR sword, counterpart to Excalibur, a divine construct.

no galatine is the counterpart to excalibur

>independent manifestation
Isn't that something only beasts can have?

Beasts like Kama and Kiara are servants. Also Merlin and Void.

void I can kinda understand but why merlin

He's fucking Merlin

Merlin is a Grand Servant and possibly a beast as well

Didn't they make karna a super saiyan now?

>possibly a beast
based on what?

he fused with two gods and reached a level similar or above grand servant

Fuck off Gawain you cuck.

Pretty sure user is talking Sigurd.

EMIYA if he's actually trying to win, you mean?

LMao emiya is a jobber who never achieved anything
he couldn't defeat cu and surely won't defeat alter who is much stronger

why

When are they going to reveal more Grand Servants? The idea is neat

>What would having alter as a servant be like?
She'd probably be more demanding when it comes to strategies she prefers and more aggressive in carrying them out. She enjoys joking around around at the expense of others unlike her alter ego. Vanilla Saber beat Shirou into unconsciousness over missing lunch and this one has an even shorter fuse. Lets not forget that time Vanilla Saber killed Shirou involuntarily because she wanted the grail that much.

>befriend her
Learn to cook the most unhealthy things possible, don't be weak of mind and body, don't be untrustworthy, at least try to be a decent human being.

because arjuna had becme stronger so he needed to become stronger as well

Because God Arjuna is the most broken thing ever and could destroy/recreate the planet every 10 days.

Independent Action only allows existence for the short term. Independent Manifestation is a skill unique to Beasts and certain unique Servants.

Sigurd will eventually be crushed by the world's auto-correction. As long as he has an anchor, he can act independently, but he's not almighty. The moment he loses his anchor, the world auto-correction will take effect. Dragonkind Modification EX is not a substitute for Independent Modification. In fact, dragons especially are absolute no-nos. The moment the world senses a dragon in the modern world, it'll immediately be shoved into the Reverse Side of the World as a concentrated mystery of that caliber has no place in the Age of Man.

I fucking DESPISE FGO.

Grand berserker soon normally

>gets pruned

counter force has been destroyed

That doesn't even make any sense
Why aren't the Types raping everything.

The invisibility effect is anti-unit, releasing the winds for attacking or whatever isn't I guess.

Pruning has nothing to do with the Counter Force and everything to do with the Human Order. That's why it's a Lostbelt. It has no possibilities and no future. It's a world that's destined to disappear because it's a complete dead end.

Because Types got powercreeped.

But that doesn't even make any sense.

If Saber returns to the field at Camlann every time she fails to get the Grail, does that include Saber Alter? Is she still Altered when she gets back? That must be so embarrassing when Bedi shows up and asks what's up with her outfit. And when Bedi chucks Excalibur Morgan back into the lake then Vivianne would be like "wtf it's black what did you do with it?"

Attached: 1563855725584.png (290x257, 89K)

>Yog sothoth shows up
>blinks the universe away because

Can we all agree that Extrashit and Gachashit are non canon fever dreams?
Illya's show is one of the greatest lore breakers of all but is literally a fanfic.
This alternate timeline garbage is absolute cancer and there's no reason that Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night shouldn't be able to fit together..

You know have injit who are above types
Injit milky way is gonna be the last boss of part 2

>The moment he loses his anchor,
No. It's frankly hilarious that you think this vaguely established rule would hold weight when every single rule ever established in Fate has been broken with exceptions. And Sigurd is definitely among them.
> In fact, dragons especially are absolute no-nos
Irrelevant.

This sounds like absolute cancer.
I'm glad GO isn't canon, otherwise the blatant lore breaking bullshit it constantly does would retroactively destroy the entire series.

>Pruning has nothing to do with the Counter Force and everything to do with the Human Order.
What is Alaya?

Alternate timelines have been around since forever. That's literally what Zelretch is.

Yeah, but when your alternate timeline bullshit gets to a point where everything ever occurs in it's own seperate world, it's just boring.

> It's frankly hilarious that you think this vaguely established rule would hold weight when every single rule ever established in Fate has been broken with exceptions
Alright genius where is the exception we are shown where a Servant can exist without a Master as their anchor without the Independent Action or Independent Manifestation skill? Self-Modification is not Independent Action.

>where is the exception we are shown where a Servant can exist without a Master as their anchor
literally the stray singularity helpers we meet in FGO where they're randomly summoned by Goetia's grail.

>I'm glad GO isn't canon

Yea Forums is really retarded when it comes to GO
>it's okay for FSN to have several routes all canon
>NOOOOOOO FGO DOESN'T COUNTTT NONE OF IT IT'S CANON NOOOO

>FGO
super gay logic
you're gay

I'm more amazed that you believed happening happened in a single timeline for so long. Did you not read Plus Disc?

Because the seperate routes of FSN don't take a barbed stick and sodomize the entire fucking franchise with it, you pleb tertiary kusoge gacha defending FUCK.

tfw no canon Battle Moon Wars

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That was literally never gonna happen. Why would you possibly believe it would?

It's just a stupid decision.
I can understand certain events happening or not happening in certain timelines.
But certain events being impossible in certain timelines because "FUCK YOU (X) doesn't exist in this timeline but despite this the timeline turned out nearly exactly the same because fuck you." Is fucking stupid.

It's still word of God and now the main entry of the series.
>I DON'T LIKE IT
>IT RAPES THE LORE
Okay? You can say you don't like it but doesn't make it non-canon.
>BUT BUT BUT
You should curse Takeuchi for convincing him to make the main entry for years to come into a mobage though.
Now relax and breathe.

Were you really hoping for crossovers that badly? Besides, that is literally the very nature of timelines. A single thing happening or not happening eight hundred years ago could potentially have dramatic consequences in the future.

Word of God is irrelevant when it's clearly only being said for money.

Yes, but the only difference in the future is a very specific thing.
And that's fucking bullshit.
Canonically, Zero and Stay Night aren't in the same timeline.
Fuck you, Nasu.

>he thinks FGO sodomized the franchise
FGO actually more strongly exemplifies Nasu's own themes and ideas for his universe than do other kuso spinoffs like Apocrypha. If anything it revitalised the franchise, because new VNs are a dead end financially.

The amount of times I've seen this bullshit being spouted and it isn't any truer than the first time it was vomited out onto the world.
It's all about the money, there's no artistic integrity in this shit, you dumb cunt.

>Canonically, Zero and Stay Night aren't in the same timeline.
Oh my god, did you really take that so seriously? That's just a meta handwave to blow off any minor differences in details between what is described in Zero and what is described in Stay Night, because obsessively slaving oneself to every single little thing that was described in FSN would be too constraining for Gen. It's not meant to be taken seriously.

Why are you so disturbed by that? Nasu calls Fate/Zero a "subtly different timeline". The broad strokes still occurred, but certain details are different. The only reason Fate/Zero is an alternate timeline is because of those inconsistencies.

Fate/Zero still happened, it's just that a few details don't match up. The version of the Fourth Heaven's Feel ritual that took place prior to Fate/stay night is still largely the same, just slightly different.

>noooo FGO can't be canon wtf Nasu this is bullshit
VN-only secondarykeks continue to seethe

Absolutely. Gilgamesh's subconscious desire to be stepped on by Saber would be fulfilled by Saber Alter. He'd roll over like a dog for her.

If it's all about the money, then why is Kinoko assassinating the golden goose at the end of Part 2 because he played Danganronpa V3 and felt like he wanted to be artsy?

only in the carnival phantasm universe

Again, why is Yea Forums so retarded
The concept of Lost Belts is very easy to grasp

Scenario 1:
>Camelot
>The World determines Camelot's fall it's an event that MUST happen
>Camelot eventually falls
>Timeline continues just fine

Lost Belt of Scenario 1:
>Someone or something prevented Camelot from going to shit
>This starts a chain reaction of events that will change the course of history in that particular time line
>The World goes "Camelot MUST fall, it didn't went to shit on this timeline? well get fucked and deleted. I will not spare the energy to sustain you irregular and abnormal piece of shit"
>Time line eventually gets prunned along with everything and everyone on it

The World simply has a limited amount of energy it can spare among timelines
Sustaining irregular timelines where humanity will fuck itself it's a waste of energy

You should feel ashamed for having such a bad opinion.
Don't you have any taste at all?

Then how do Overcount 1999 and Tsuki no Sango exist?

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Taste or opinion doesn't play into it. FGO is explicitly canon.

That's fucking stupid though.

So a pruned timeline dissapears?
It's deleted from existence?

Wrong.

Tsuki no Sango takes place on the Tsukihime side, where the Human Order isn't the dominant force of the world.

Overcount 1999 isn't the end-all be-all. It's still possible for humanity to survive. In fact, humanity is given precisely that opportunity in the Fate/Extella timeline.

Sorry, Nasu says it is.

Correct, theres no one more versatile than enkidu since even if a shit-tier mage happens to summon him, his stats/np wouldn't be affected by the magus' shitty circuits. He is also extremely easy to get along with, IIRC as a "True neutral" servant he wouldn't even be against working with masters with "evil" tactics/methods like kiritsugu or shinji.

Nasu is also wrong.
Too bad.

There's no point in keeping around a timeline where humanity destroys itself. It's like keeping a corpse in stasis, dedicated electricity to preserving it. If the world preserved every fucked timeline, it wouldn't be able to handle it all.

Yeah, you can't even take things from it with you into another timeline because they retroactively get erased when the timeline itself also gets erased

>his stats/np wouldn't be affected by the magus' shitty circuits
Yes they are. Enkidu's master in SF fucked his stats to less than full As and Nasu says being summoned by the world would supercharge him. Everything else is correct though.

When did this series become so HUMANITY FUCK YEAH?
Fucking genre whiplash.

His stats are definitely affected by the summoner, otherwise he wouldn't get A+ in every stat when summoned by the world. He can supply his own mana though.

nuh uh

I thought EA pre-dated gaia's existence as it was said to be made with "other worldly" compounds? It should still be able to destroy the world provided the person uses it has grail-levels of mana.

Only the Fate worlds are like that. The Tsukihime worlds have different priorities.

Yes. The entire plot of FGO is this

>We live in a hobo tent (main timeline) in the city (multiverse), and get given food (energy) by a city council welfare programme (human order)

>We have no control over who else gets food (timeline energy) or who gets cut off and starves (pruning process), but we're the "model" hobo tent used as the baseline by which the worthiness of other all (alt timelines) are judged by the council, the one in which human hobos are thriving

>This ensures the limited food supply is used to feed as many tents as possible

>One day we personally save the tent from an attack made by another member (Goetia) in order to take over the welfare distribution system himself

>Then some other prick (alien god) decides to cut off our gibs for unknown reasons while selecting seven failed tents (lostbelt) to be p compete with ours, and seven hobos from our tent (Crypters) decided they're going to work for him and compete to decide which other failed tent gets our old gibs and becomes the new baseline tent regardless of how bad it fucks the welfare system

>All because they're jealous of us personally for being heroes and want to lead their own tent

>Also one of them helps set our sleeping bag (Chaldea) on fire right as they're leaving and our supply gets cut off

>So now we either let ourselves starve or go out and kill the cunts who betrayed us, torch their tents, and hopefully draw out the head cunt to kill him too so the old food distribution gets reinstated so our tent doesn't starve

>The hobos in the tents those cunts pick were uninvolved until they went there though so unfortunately they're really just like us fighting to survive

>Of the hobo tents we've torched so far, one was full of furries, one was already on fire because of nordic shenanigans, one was a chinkanese emperor utopia, and one was in permanent cycle of destruction and rebirth by pajeet god, so we really didn't want any of those places becoming the model tent frankly

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But why.

Is Tsukihime side (weak human order) its own time tree with its own limited resources and pruning rules? I'm having trouble reconciling an entire separate order with the rules of the Fate panhistory.

I'm pretty sure Enkidu does have full A's across the board in SF due to Wolf having amazing circuits, but with a shitty master his "point pool" would be lower

Fate has always been HUMANITY FUCK YEAH I mean look at the very concept of heroic spirits, its Tsukihime that has humans as a footnote in the story of the universe.

It's because it doesn't make any FUCKING SENSE.

>Within the works of TYPE-MOON...... or rather, within the works of Nasu Kinoko written under TYPE-MOON, it may appear that "everything takes place in the same world", but within that foundation, there is in fact a split that diverges into two major systems. Up until now, I've been revealing hints bit by bit, and now I'll offer up a continued explanation.
>This regards the world of Fate in which Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants, and the world in which an almighty existence like a Heroic Spirit being used as an "autonomous familiar" just ain't freakin' possible, the world of Tsukihime.
>The foundation of Fate's world can be thought of as one in which "those who positively affirm humanity's history" known as Heroic Spirits are the dominant force, however the foundation of Tsukihime's world is one in which "human history has been ????", resulting in the Dead Apostles, who stand in opposition to it, rising in power, and that's basically the primary difference.
>And so. In regards to a certain character who appears in Tsukihime..... the one who abandoned the Church and ended up being counted among the Twenty-Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors...... well, after a "certain meeting", he ended up becoming an extraordinarily powerful Dead Apostle. However, within the world of Fate, that "certain meeting" never occurred so even after becoming a Dead Apostle, he never received a level of power enough to be counted as "one of the Ancestors", and his overall level of mystery suffers a drop in rank as well.
>The discrepency of those circumstances...... Even if the worlds' foundations are the same, the premise may differ and thus the characters may differ as well......

But the game still needs to make gachabucks, so Lostbelt Servants get written into the Throne for reasons.

>"But Grandpa, then what about "Fake"? How should I treat that hodgepodge of darkness? I wanna know!"
>"Hohoho. That's a world where "both are possible", oh mighty warrior Mahiro-chan who, upon lifting the ban, reached LV80 within the course of a single day"
>"Both are possible......? So it's like playing with dice where you can get either evens or odds? Then, in other words..."
>"Indeed. Therefore, it is a "world like FGO" where both or neither is a possibility, o Mahiro-chan who possesses both a LV100 Ilya and Chloe. You have become a true warrior just as I had expected. However, it's good to practice prudence at times as well."

>Fate
>Gilgamesh literally deciding that humanity sucks ass and needs to be purged
All of the decent heroic spirits are either demi-gods or part dragon or what have you.

>Pan History
>The World is like "if Humanity can reach stars on it's own just fine on this timeline, then everything is fine, HUMANITY FUCK YEAH"
>"Humanity NOT fuck yeah? get deleted"

>Tsukihime
>The world is like "Humans aren't as important, I like vampires too"
>"Humanity not fuck yeah? okay I don't care that much, but vampies are okay for now so everything is fine, I like vampies"

Gilgamesh was one of the most divine demigods but chose humanity though

>it's not even consistent with it's own lore
of Course, after pseudo-servants I don't know what anybody was expecting.

Yeah but that's sightly different from taking with you supplies and souvenirs from these places.
Which Chaldea tried to do but in the end got erased.

Read Narita's interview with Nasu. Those stats are placeholders. Enkidu will get them once Silver Wolf fully heals, but now he's only "a little under all As"

>what is EMIYA

And it all went to shit as a direct result of this choice.
The Age of Man was a fucking mistake.

If Hinako senpai had become pregnant by lostbelt doomhorse, when the lostbelt was erased would the foetus be spontaneously aborted?

>EMIYA
>a heroic spirit
>EMIYA
>not getting his shit handed to him by basically every servant except when he sneak attacks them
Ok retard

>defeats medea, a top 5 strongest caster, in her own base

But can Gilgamesh defeat the White Titan?

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We actually have a pregnant servant now.
From her we can extrapolate that if you get registred in the throne when you're pregnant you will be forever pregnant as a servant.

Honestly I don't know what the fuck that was all about considering that Medea could just fucking roast him and his pathetic magic resistance with her magic.
Plot Armour, I suppose.

Short answer: No
Long answer: LOLno

Let's say the Shadow Border and our lungs are now full of Lostbelt air from having been in the Lostbelt for a while, when we leave and it gets pruned does all our air get deleted and the inside of the Border is now a vacuum, killing us all?

>d-doesn't count
also right after that he fights kojiro in close combat and survives with no apaprent injuries

He's shooting literal Noble Phantasms at her. It's hard to block those even with magic.

Sure, but it's really a matter of speed.
EMIYA would get raped by a rain of light and she dies to sword spam if she acts like a retard.

On an strict sense yeah.
Nasu and his cowritters probably don't want to take such an strict approach, but that's how it should work.
Shit from there literally stops existing and servants only "save" themselves from that fate because the throne registers them, bailing them out.

The gods were already on their way out thanks to the White Titan

>Counter Guardian fights Fictional Wraith
>somehow evidence as to Heroic Spirit abilities

Don't read nip, but thanks for the info

why can tamamo's witchcraft pierce magic resistance, that's a fucking cheat. Even Tamamo cat's can bind even suzuka for a while and her witchcraft is at a measly E rank.

Emiya's combat tactics just happen to be superior to some old lady who spends most of her time brewing cauldrons and dressing up dolls. Both Medea and Emiya can shoot missiles, but Emiya knows how to use those missiles tactically. Medea just shoots them wherever.

>fictional wrath defeats both king arthur and the son of the sun god lugh
>not a feat

Because this series is fucking stupid and constantly breaks it's own rules because as the years have gone on, Nasu has become a greater and greater HACK.

Because her witchcraft is basically godhax (nerfed edition).

My sweet summer child, did you not play the VN? FSN was literally "here's how things work" but "oh shit, this isn't supposed to happen!". You had Medea breaking the rule and summoning a servant. Gilgamesh being an irregular 8th servant. The entirety of HF. Artoria being summoned again with her memories. FSN broke the rules the second they were established for the sake of it. Nasu is the biggest contrarian ever.

Those are all technically loopholes. Medea being able to summon a Servant is basically because she's one of the top greatest magi in human history, so she basically games the system. There was never a rule stating that a Servant from a previous war couldn't stick around. Altria isn't a Heroic Spirit to begin with, so she was never part of the normal rules.

The rules are usually impossible to break outright, but they also tend to have a bunch of convenient loopholes.

>underplaying kojiro
sasuga

>Those are all technically loopholes. Medea being able to summon a Servant is basically because she's one of the top greatest magi in human history, so she basically games the system.
And also because Angry Manjew polluting the Grail means that all the usual rules are being thrown out the window anyway, if I'm not mistaken.

>Kiara got destroyed by him
What is this secondary talking about?
Kiara never faces Budha

That's not really an issue from what I can tell. The main issue is that ordinarily, a summoned Heroic Spirit can't summon another Heroic Spirit. But since what Caster summoned wasn't a Heroic Spirit, I guess it's okay. Being able to summon something from the Throne is out, but being able to summon something from somewhere else seems to be fair game. After all, Rider summoned a pegasus from the reverse side of the world.

>my sweet summer child
>>>/reddit/

aight, so i got an answer.

>It is likely that Tohno's mystic eyes would not destroy it, as it brings about a definite end. Death of some sort must be a concept to be brought about and unraveled.
>However, Ryougi's I imagine would, because her eyes work a little bit differently. Between her Origin affinity and being [ ], her mystic eyes are also capable of severing something's origin. She can freely manipulate the root in this way. Since Avalon was crafted and created, it has a beginning, and she would be able to destroy it.

Who the fuck said this? It sure as fuck wasn't Nasu.

Isn't buddha a hard counter for kiara.

>Independent Manifestation: A
>A skill to appear in the present world independently.
>Normally, Merlin cannot be summoned as a Heroic Spirit.
>That is due to him not dying in any version of future. Him serving the Master as a Servant is just him venting out his personal desire. Frankly, it's just a hobby.
>For the sake of actualizing this hobby, he aqcquires this skill that only a special class (Beast) can have and pretend to be summoned as a Servant.
All characters that have IM skill so far are Merlin, Void, Goetia, Kama, Kiara, Tiamat and Koyanskaya btw.

Doesn't shiki also have this?