Emiya Kiritsugu

It's pretty much what SEELE was doing in Evangelion

What is wrong with dictators?Equality is a lie anyway.

Not user.
Because if it is an omnipotent wish granting plot device it surely can do something in that regard.to make everyone happy.
It's magic.

Fair enough; my guess is that he trusted that, if he won the Grail War, making a wish on the grail would be a simple enough task. Normally if you win a contest and receive a prize, the organizers of said contest make everything beyond that point simple for you. The Holy Grail was always presented as being without limits, so I guess he just took that promise at face value.

Imo, this argument is and always has been sophistry. Life would be the exact same in all ways aside from being more peaceful.

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FUCK
UTISHITARIANS

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But then would you support Hitler?

He was hired to win though, not to make a wish.

Hitler and Kiritsugu are in no way similar. Honestly, it's always been kind of enraging that so many people are in favor of passing up the chance to make the world a better place, and relieve the human race of untold amounts of unnecessary suffering, all for the sake of pure sophistry nonsense. "Wars, random murders, kidnappings, etc are okay, but having the free will to do these things removed? That's a fucking nightmare, the human race could never recover from something so horrible."

The last time such device was actually activated in anime, it made people kill each other to their hearts' content, free of all the constraints they have imposed on their desires.

Playing god is bad user

Well I supposed Hitler was a good person at heart so comparing him to Kerry was bad.

"It's wrong because it's wrong" is not an argument. If by playing God I can save countless people from having their lives destroyed, you're absolutely God damn right I'm going to play God, and I would never regret it for a second. Morality should be based on tangible results - that is, whether something harms people or helps them, not "This is wrong because... I dunno, it just is."

>"Wars, random murders, kidnappings, etc are okay, but having the free will to do these things removed? That's a fucking nightmare, the human race could never recover from something so horrible."

The human race would simply cease to exit to be replaced with something entirely different.

>Morality should be based on tangible results - that is, whether something harms people or helps them, not

This is utter bullshit for many reasons, and one of those reasons is that you see no wrong in inflicting one of the worst forms of harm imaginable on everyone indiscriminately because of potential harm some of them may do to each other one day.

Should I reply, or am I just dealing with some hardhead with a poorly thought out argument, probably regurgitated from other sources, who would be a waste of time to speak to... decisions, decisions...

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You should decide on coping or seething first.

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lmao
What a god damn retard you are. Disgusting fucking piece of dog shit.
No, I don't see anything wrong with wishing for a peaceful world. That doesn't mean people can't disagree, or fight, or argue.

Here's a horrifying truth: there were fewer wars during the 2010s than the 1990s. Holy shit, isn't that horrible? Doesn't that mean the world is going downhill? I wish there was more genocide and slaughter like you do.

At least his son dealt with Kerry's failures.

>waaah waaah, you are a retard because I want fried ice.

brb, I'm going to go tell Trump that Yea Forums says the world is better the more violent it is. We really need to get back to the Middle Ages, where certain villages and towns had a murder rate of 10 percent.

No there weren't.

I think there were something like 90-something in the 90s and 60-something in the 2010s.

A person like yourself, who devolves to a rabid, shit-flinging monkey the second someone disagrees with you, should perhaps know better than to wish for the world where not even a trace of your personality will remain (or perhaps you will be free to happily act in accordance with your nature, depending on how stupid the wish-maker is).

"World peace" does not mean "removing every trace of one's personality." Kiritsugu's wish is vague, but world peace doesn't necessarily entail being unable to get angry, or lash out verbally, or for there to be great amounts of social discord. It could just mean no war.

>It could just mean no war.

Or it could mean sterilizing the planet.

>Kiritsugu's wish is vague,

And that's a big problem, and one of the reasons why Kiritsugu does not actually have a point, besides acting on his trauma.

Wishing for something extremely vague like "world peace" from a device that, to Kiritsugu's knowledge, does not have guiding intelligence to make a better job interpret his wish than he himself does, and may fulfill it based on exact words, reading his subconcscious desires, or whatever, really, is a capitally bad idea.

Okay, but that does not mean the correct solution is to go "WISHING FOR THE WORLD TO BECOME A BETTER PLACE IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY IS BAD." Fine, making the wish more specific to reduce the possibility of it being Monkey's Paw'd, but if I can make a wish to reduce the amount of human suffering in the world, you had god damn better bet that I would take it, and anyone who believes that I would be making the wrong decision is a disgusting sack of shit.

*make the wish

And to be clear, I do respect this argument . This is the first sane, reasonable disagreement I've received in the entire thread.

That's why I prefer the Benevolent Reaper A.I. ending to the Mass Effect trilogy.

Sorry, I don't know anything about Mass Effect. Am I finally having someone agree with me?

Making absolute world peace would require somehow drastically changing humanity's nature, something neither single person nor grail could accomplish. But there's nothing wrong with striving for that ideal, just that Kerry and Redman took it to extreme relying on greater powers which bit them in the ass.

Still wins the war. Cope fag tard.

>"Wars, random murders, kidnappings, etc are okay, but having the free will to do these things removed? That's a fucking nightmare

Exactly.

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Strictly speaking, no one won. He was technically the last Master standing but that didn't really amount to much.

The Einzbern's only wanted to win though. They allowed him to make any wish he wanted as long as he won and they got to confirm that their wish granting cup actually worked.

I would have to give the specific wording and nature of the wish some thought, but I don't think that walking away and completely forsaking the opportunity to make this world better is the right thing to do. I wouldn't want to one day in the future go "Sorry, victims of war atrocities and genocides. I WOULD have helped you, but there were some people who have some vaguely-defined idea that it would have been morally wrong, you see. Enjoy your dead families, ruined towns, and having your arms and legs blown off."

It is wrong to rely on some bullshit wish granting device instead of your own strenght.

Well, consider it a good thing that there's no magical wish-granting relic in this world then, because I would ignore the feelings of you and everyone else arguing this inane viewpoint.

>shot his dad for causing a zombie outbreak
>sucked it up and shot down the plane with his mom on board to prevent another
>assraped Lancer's Master twice
>sniped Caster's Master
>had cool fights overall
>forced Saber to destroy the thing she wanted most with her own hands
>fucked two bitches
Kerry was boss.

And he won though. It's kinda retarded that they got all mad at him for it. The Einzberns just wanted to win and they aren't technically extant anymore (Acht is a magic A.I etc.)

im pretty sure that the whole point of them being in the wars were to get back the 3rd magic.

Consider it a good thing we're not in the same building, cause I would ignore the feelings of you and everyone else in your family to beat you with a shoe in your own room.

Funny, I've thought the same thing when dealing with you idiots.

>lost both his bitches
>ended up a failed wreck with all his hopes and dreams shattered
>couldn't even meet his daughter before dying in his 40s without leaving behind nothing but a lifetime of senseless bloodshed and an autistic ginger foster child

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There's one hilarious bleak Japanese 'novel' (published fanfiction, really) about the adopted son of Shirou who wins a Grail War and uses it to go back in time to stop a demon(?) incursion.

He ends up CAUSING the incursion when his negative-karma-tainted-soul is ripped from his body and flung back in time, and he turns out to be the daemon prince-esque monster Shirou dies fighting.

Not even his 40s. He was around 35 when he died.

Do you have more Hajimemes?

A couple of them.

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He destroyed the grail which prevented them from achieving Heaven's Feel, it's a pretty sound reason to be pissed.

Honest question: Do you not realize that we need people like Kiritsugu? Sure, his life sucked, but for the average joe he's a net bonus.

If he didn't blow up the plane with his adopted mother on board, the world would likely have ended. At the very least, they'd have had to nuke a city. If he didn't win the Grail, Kirei would likely have won and we all know what Kirei would do.

Yes, it sucks to be him personally, but every society needs a man willing to fight his way onto the cross and scream at the Romans to hammer the nails in for the greater Good. We go "Man, what a hero" while we think "Thank fucking God I'm not the one who had to do it."

>somehow the fanbase thinks I'm cool. must be the trenchcoat.
Based

>Wishing for something extremely vague like "world peace" from a device that, to Kiritsugu's knowledge, does not have guiding intelligence to make a better job interpret his wish than he himself does, and may fulfill it based on exact words, reading his subconcscious desires, or whatever, really, is a capitally bad idea.

Yeah, seems like the kind of thing where you would have to be really really goddamn specific or you could possibly fuck around and end up with everyone dead because death = peace.

I wish people argued this viewpoint to me from the start, because it's perfectly reasonable and I can get behind it 100 percent. This is the kind of tangible 'downside' that makes a solid argument, not whatever the hell people were babbling around for the first half of this thread.

uh, why didnt they figure out that the grail was corrupted or listened to his explanation?

I mean, if you hired someone who fought a war to get the grail then destroyed, you would probably want to ask him why.

I thought that the point of the story was that the Grail would always fuck you over, because it was possessed by an actively malicious spirit.

>If he didn't blow up the plane with his adopted mother on board, the world would likely have ended. At the very least, they'd have had to nuke a city.

They only had to contain the infection in the airport, which wouldn't have been that hard. The world is not so frail as to end from such a meager degree of magic. Sure it might have costed the lives of a couple of people, but nowhere on the level of threatening an entire city, especially if he prepared for the landing.
The problem is that those "couple of lives" is something Kiritsugu didn't want to risk at all because of his autism. He chose to not take any chances.

I agree that people like him are necessary though, and I sort of admire his ruthless efficiency, even though I disagree with his methods. But that's mostly because I'm very selfish and would personally cut the throat of every other person in the world if it meant extending my life for even one day more.

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>>cheat on her with the most irellevant side-hoe in the history of everything
His relationship with Maya was instigated by Irisviel because she didn't want Kerrytugu to be alone once she turned into the grail

Did they really want Heaven's Fell though? All the original Einzberns are long gone and the remnants sure as hell don't need it since they aren't even human. I thought it was more of a pride thing for them.

>The problem is that those "couple of lives" is something Kiritsugu didn't want to risk at all because of his autism. He chose to not take any chances.

There wasn't really a choice. It's not like he could be expected to individually shoot every zombie in the head AND destroy the bugs. There was no scenario where his adopted mom made it out alive.

Mongrels, the lot of you.

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You could wait for her to get out and then blow the plane, dummy. I'm sure there's some barrier magic that could keep a bunch of insects inside the airport.

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Where is Case Files thread? New episode soon

Excuse me but how is shooting down a plane supposed to kill a bunch of bees inside anyway? If only one gets out and flies away the whole thing would be for nothing.

Who is in the right here?

One of the mods doesnt like Reine

Yeah because mages are these weird autistic weirdo freaks who are willing to absolutely do anything without regards to ethics, morals, or feelings in order to achieve some weird abstract goal to satisfy their pride or curiosity.

No wonder Heroic Spirits mostly hate these assholes.

Just post Waver

swords are cool and beautiful

How are bees going to fly across the ocean to get to a city? After the entire plane explodes into a fireball from being hit by a surface-to-air missile?

>bees infect the sea
>sea fish get infected
>things just turned worse

Kiritsugu genuinely was in a tight, complicated spot with the bee situation, but that was the exception. Otherwise, he was too quick to kill as a first resort. If there was a .0001 percent chance that saving one life would endanger others, he would kill that one person.

Sacrificing the few for the sake of the many is idiotic, since people are not equal and that's not how human beings value things. Heaven's Feel Shirou was correct in the end, as that's the adult decision. Kiritsugu in comparison is an overgrown child.

This. For all you know you may end up killing someone who could change the world for the better(doctor, scientist, etc) to save a group of random people.

>Sacrificing the few for the sake of the many is idiotic
But if saving everyone isn't a possibility, then what would be the right choice? Sacrificing the many for the few? Abandoning everyone altogether?

>Heaven's Feel Shirou was correct in the end

Every Shirou in every route thinks he was correct in the end. Heaven's Feel Shirou had no choice but to cope with the life he chose, even though he'd rather be out there touching swords and saving random people at the cost of his safety.

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Someone post wall of text from Dies Irae about
"sacrificing others for sake of your loved ones".

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The only one who makes the call is Acht and he either isn't a sophisticated enough Golem to make that kind of independent thought or he's just an asshole who didn't want to know what Kerry had to say. Probably both.

To be clear, I'm not saying that sacrificing anyone is 'okay.' I'm just honestly not sure what the best choice would be if minimizing deaths isn't the right solution. Maybe attempting to save everyone regardless, no matter how unrealistic that is?

> I don't know how probability works
This

Save the people you care about. Do you think people give a shit about stranger they never met in some 3rd world shithole? No. Sacrificing your loved ones for their sake is both idiotic and sociopathic.

Outside of the situation with Natalie, I think that whenever Kiritsugu weighed the few against the many, both were always strangers.

>m-muh justice

You forgot the holy grail war.
If he abandoned it both Ilya, Shirou and Sakura would have had an happy life.

>Heaven's Feel Shirou was correct in the end
You mean the guy that ends up the worst of physically and in this broken situation by the end?

Well, that's a fair point. I can understand Kiritsugu and where he's coming from, but his ideals do come at the expense of him being a loyal person.

>was the king of the world
>now a pathetic hedonist who owns nothing
Any other Fate character who got JUSTed harder than Gil?

>owns nothing
>when he owns almost all the treasures of the world
He just needs to find a 2d waifu to be happy.

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Jesus Christ that writing is terrible. There is so much mumbo jumbo there I can't even tell what they're trying to say.

how did he even know kiritsugu was responsible for destroying the grail in the first place? The only two people around were kirtisugu (Who he didnt ask) and Kotomine (who was probably trying to keep a low profile after the war to avoid awkard questions)

That's pretty normal English though. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Right from the start of the story Shirou is more self-aware of the silliness and childishness of his dream than Kerry ever was.

A missile won't cause the whole plane to explode, let alone a manpad missile. It most likely will take out an engine or control surfaces and cause to the plane to crash, planes exploding mid air are rare.

>must be the trenchcoat
Where i can get same trenchcoat?

Kerry's kind of a retard.

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>Kiritsugu's methods were wrong
Wrong, Kiritsugu did fine. He literally did his best to achieve his goals.
>He thought he could just go and ask the grail for a method to grant him his wish
Just a reminder, most Masters also had no idea what to do with Grail, mostly just questions like "what is my wish?" or "how to grow up, i'm a manlet"

It was probably assumed, given that it was no longer possible for Heaven's Feel to be performed and Kiritsugu was the only one left.

Most masters are there only for the root cause.

Clock Tower mafia are such faggots. I understand why some mages going solo or researching DA.

>Wrong, Kiritsugu did fine. He literally did his best to achieve his goals.

I'm just glad to have someone at least partially agree with me.

>fucked a 2 year old hommonculus and knocked her up

based

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Where exactly? It's literally a long winded "A road to hell is paved with good intentions" Idiom with an added context of a hypocritical moralist being the judge of a totally delusional cunt. user, are you perhaps a brainlet?

Too pure for kiritsugu. She deserved better.Someone like Kirei.

Dictators have to kill & torture people because they lack access to magic wish fulfilling trinkets

Kirei had his chance with Caren's mother and he fucked up. No excuses.

>pure
>Kirei
Yeah, pure evil.

He wasn't a bad person back in 1994.

>dictatortrying to achieve world domination
It will not makes world better, since probably things will fail, everyone will try to rebel, etc.
There will be no world peace and endless wars/terrorism instead.

And still a better character than the high schooler.

He was totally fucked up, the best thing you could say about him is that he was aware of his urges and tried to control them.

That's no small thing. His Fate/Zero self is often viewed as a decent person and a victim for a reason. His characterization is definitely more sympathetic than his F S/N self.

Confirmed for not getting Kirei. He was always a tragic character in both FSN and F/Z.

>That's no small thing.
And I can respect that he tried. He could have done more though, including suicide.
Don't hate him though, some of the shit he did was genuenly funny as fuck.

>considered evacuating the hotel before blowing it up being soft.
>despite having with complete certainty Kayneth wouldn't change his plan over it.
>Torture a cripple for absolutely no reason or purpose.

As the magus killer, Kerry always went for
maximum edginess rather than what would work and limit collateral damage.

"The world is a dark, bleak place. See all the awful shit It forces to do" and crap. He was a total emo. An emo with military grade equipment.

He was, but not to the same extent. FSN simultaneously condemns and sympathizes with him; he's a tragic villain, but still a villain. F/Z sympathizes with him without the condemnation, because he's not yet given in to his crueler tendencies.

>Wrong, Kiritsugu did fine.
I don't understand how anyone can watch Zero and agree with this.

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>Don't hate him though, some of the shit he did was genuenly funny as fuck.
Kirei is pretty hilarious in FSN after he's given up on trying to be a decent person and just turned into a yolo sociopath.

This is the plot of Tales of Berseria

>F/Z sympathizes with him without the condemnation, because he's not yet given in to his crueler tendencies.
He does ever since fucking Tokiomi in the back with the dagger, and fully embraces it when he wakes up in the aftermath. Kirei in F/Z is never really condemned though, he and Gil are true winners of the war because they aren't bogged down with retarded ideals like Kiritsugu or the shortcomings of other masters.

FSN is a different thing though, somewhat, he's a more classic villain in Fate with a more basic villain backstory, completely disregarded in UBW, and finally gets a big amount of characterization and "fuck, maybe he's not as bad, and just kinda tragic and put into a place he couldn't get out of" in HF.

He won. Not just won, but won and was able to reject Angra Mainyu so no other retard could fuck up the entire world with their naive wishes.
Yeah sure a city got engulfed by blood lava but they got over it.

But they are doing it for the right reasons? How is a magic altering your brain diffefent?

Yes he was, he's always been a bad person.

Most dictators do not do what they do for the right reason (if there is such a thing) but for personal power, plutocratic enrichment or to suit their twisted, narrow ideologies (fascism, Stalinism, Maoism, anarcho-primitivism etc etc)

>He does ever since fucking Tokiomi in the back with the dagger, and fully embraces it when he wakes up in the aftermath
It's been a long time, but was this the very end of the series? Like the last episode or two?

This. Dictators are just evil, genocidal psychopaths. Kiritsugu's goal was genuinely philanthropic, even if poorly thought out.

>It's been a long time, but was this the very end of the series? Like the last episode or two?
The fire aftermath is the last episode or second to last, the Tokiomi dagger is earlier though.

This desu.

Why is Kerry such a fucking shitty father, even in spinoff world's like Prisma and Miyu's world?

He didn't have a good father-figure and even taking this into consideration he still tries. With bad results but at least he cares.
Teaching Shirou wrongly was counterproductive but he hoped it would make him abandon magecraft. In Prillya he works to assure his family safety after he screwed Einzberns over.

Why did he want Shirou to abandon magecraft?

I'm mostly annoyed that Kiritsugu dies in his 30s even in Prillya. If it's supposed to be a more lighthearted spinoff where everything's okay, then let the nigger live a full life.

Cause the only good magician is a dead magician.

This. Kiritsugu knew only one decent magician and she was a killer still.

Where was it said that he died?

>dictators are evil
America was a mistake.

I think I'm getting confused because he died in the alternate timeline in Shirou's backstory.

What the fuck, when did he die?

Maybe he was talking about Miyuverse Kiritsugu.

Magus world is fucked up, Kerry knows that for sure since he did his job good.

He wanted Shirou to live peaceful life as normal person, not to become magus.

We need more Iri, and it'd be nice to see Sella throw down again in Prilya.

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You posted Liz but you are not wrong.

Do you think Miyu will kill herself if her feelings for Illya remain unrequited forever? Especially if Illya becomes as busty as her mom in a few years and thus constantly tortures Miyu with the sight of huge milkers that will never be hers?

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Liz thread?

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Gilgamesh is the only one who truly 'wins'

>gets offed by a ginger autist
>gets eaten by a shadow
>his waifu rejects his advances for a ginger autist

he did not know about the grail being evil or him needing to have a exact plan for humanitys salvation, based on the info he had he was doing fine and he was very effective

Maybe we should give some love to a girl who never got any doujin?

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I mean, it was an empty victory. Kerry accepted his dream was childish and the rest of his life was just him suffering the curse of Angra.

In Zero, I mean

JETS

More importantly why did he let shirou use magic in a way that means he's bordering death every time. I know he didn't want shirou to use magic but he should have known shirou would have the persistence to risk his life every time he trained

>but he should have known
He clearly didn't.

He was the one who taught him

Did Kerry even know that Shirou had magic circuits?

Yes, he told Shirou basics of magic.

Kerry knew shirou was unusually good at projection, and told him to use strengthening instead

I meant that he underestimated how insane Shirou was.

Oh, on top of that Kerry might have died soon after teaching shirou to use magic improperly, so he didn't get the chance to find out

>lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 12/
>…Well, since I was raised in a normal family, I don't have many Magic Circuits.
>So that leaves only one method open to me.
>According to Kiritsugu, every person has at least one form of magic they are fit for.
>He said something about drawing out magical energy appropriate to their "origin", but I didn't really understand.
>All I know for sure is that even I have some magic I can use, and if I train that magic, I may be able to become like Kiritsugu.

Seems like Kerry forgot or didn't get to tell Shirou about his circuits if he knew about them. Or maybe he did it on purpose. Shirou's clearly thinks that creating circuit from his nerve is the only option available for him.

He really was written as fucking moron. Gen is such a fucking hack. All his characters from Zero sucked and were just irredeemably stupid.

Still, didnt Shirou end up with more circuits than the ones he was born with because of that? I get that it was dangerous but you would think more mages would be willing to do it to get more circuits.

The only method that would kind of work is the one Amakusa Shirou Tokisada wanted to use, and the issue with that is that it didn't let you have a say in whether or not you wanted the Third Magic to affect you or not.

It would still prune the entire timeline.

Except he was characterized like that in the original VN without the sympathetic parts being shown.

No he had sympathetic parts in HF, including his backstory

Ok but my point was that even excluding the pruning retcon, and even if Kerry knew how to use Heaven's Feels and Angra wasn't corrupting the Grail, his dream was still not that great of an idea.

In this very scene Shirou talks about how the number of circuits is decided when you're born. And I don't think it was ever said that Shirou gained more circuits because of his nerve conversion training. His circuits were in a state of shock when he first projected K&B in UBW for the very reason that they were never used before.

Still don't know why they ruined Gilgamesh in everything that wasn't F/Z. His fight with Iskandar and his character in general was so well done and then they just throw it all away to line up with the VN.

fpbp

>I can't talk to said chick because I'm scared of getting attached to stuff
You're even dumber than your excessive line breaks indicated. That has nothing to do with why he ignores Saber.

so did he only use his nerves instead of circuits?

Yeah, that's the whole point. Rin was astonished that he thought circuit is something magus creates instead of activating.