Ghost in the shell 1996 has shit animation

>literal 70% of the movie is slow panning backgrounds and 20% stiff dialogues
>final "battle" is a slowpaced meaningless fight where the best animated shot is her opening a trapdoor
exactly why people consider this being a masterful animated movie? or its just a reddit thing?

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It wasn't a trapdoor, it was a hatch.

>her

This.
Why is OP so fucking gay?

Slower paced detailed animation with weight >>>

Fucking sped zoomers cant appreciate atmosphere

>more senseless nitpicking about anything that isn't moeshit
Your agenda is obvious, moecuck.

It's an obvious falseflag, he does it all the fucking time with Oshii films. He nitpicks them to ensure that whenever a valid criticism is brought up, everyone is conditioned to automatically shoot it down.

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SAC major > manga major > movie major > live action major

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add a ghibli film and we're set

You're THAT close to getting it.

Mentioned this at the end of my spiel. That it was partially to show that humanity cannot meet the future foolishly and with poor judgment. We must think and be intelligent if we do not want to be destroyed by our own creations. Of course I am not trying to overstate the director's intentions and ideas, I am not putting the guy on a pedestal.

The Major was rash and emotional like humans are wont to be, and she was beaten by a cold logical machine. The Major had to adopt that thought process while not losing her humanity to become greater than technology.

since when does "getting it" involve blatantly ignoring all those times when Motoko's body has been presented as a sign of her INhumanity, in order to shoehorn a dumb "man vs machine" interpretation over what's - first and foremost - three different scenes from the manga mashed together because they were cool?

In any case, as I pointed out, whatever the symbolic significance of it may be, in itself, it's just the unfortunate result of a hot-headed decision.

By comparison in the manga it's either an opportunity for Motoko to forgive her boyfriend as they try to struggle together, or a plot by Motoko to fake her death, or just an attempt to defend her former team and retrieve the pilot without putting herself on the line because she's using a decoy robot. In each case it's the only reasonable way to approach the situation.

Okay so we agree that her body having a human appearance has fuckall to do with this.

And if I remember correctly, the tank in question had a pilot. A dude from section 6, so she wasn't beaten by a cold logical machine anymore than she is a cold logical machine herself.

The conflict isn't between a champion of humanity and a champion of machines, it's between one secret agent against another secret agent.

It doesn't have "shit animation" though. "Animation" is a process, there is none of it in the actual movie so stop throwing it around like a shitty buzzword. Also i'll take "slow panning backgrounds and 20% stiff dialogues" over the new soulless 3DCG dogshit any day.

you do realize that OP doesn't believe anything he wrote, right?

Of course there is a ton of symbolism. The Film is just as much about its message as the plot. It was made to communicate beliefs as well as to tell a story.
Motoko is at a cross roads between man and machine. She is a human consciousness in a totally robot body. Batou is cybernetically augmented, Tokusa is almost entirely human, all the others are shades in between. Throughout the story we see how much stronger she is than normal people because of this. There is no one else in her position as far as we know. She does have shades of inhumanity to her, thats why she is so monotone and cold in most scenarios. But she is also human in that she cares about others and she can get angry or panic.

She was targeted by the AI because of this, that she lies on the border between two worlds. In the story if there is going to be an 'evolution' of humanity its going to be the true merger of man and machine. Motoko came face to face with humanity vs Machine in her battle with the tank (the guy inside was controlled by the Puppetmaster)

Her body was created so that she could be part of humanity. She could interact and be accepted by even most luddites so long as she looked like a person.
However the human form is imperfect and inefficient even when built out of metal and wire, it was not able to match-up against the pure utilitarianism of a war machine. And the emotions and illogical thoughts of humans put them in terrible positions, like fighting a tank 1v1.
This is where the idea of 'evolution' comes in. In order to overcome her weaknesses in a world where beings like the Puppetmaster will become more and more common she had to go as far as to abandon even the human form and become a human consciousness that is now one with technology.

She ends the story as a kind of perfect mix of man and machine as a message to the viewer.

Did you watch it though

I fucking hope so. If not then he's mentally ill.

>Of course there is a ton of symbolism. The Film is just as much about its message as the plot. It was made to communicate beliefs as well as to tell a story.
that's possible (not sure if it's an "as much" thing though), I think I misinterpreted "meaningless" as "unnecessary" and argued based on that. It's probably not meaningless from a metatextual perspective, but that's not what I was arguing about. I'm talking about the story itself, and more specifically about how it's kind of an inconsequential bit of fun.

>(the guy inside was controlled by the Puppetmaster)
Was he?
I absolutely don't remember anything about that.

Why the hell would the Puppetmaster try to shoot Motoko when she's trying to rescue it from Section 6?
This is pretty fucking important, because, once again, if he's not being controlled by the puppetmaster it fucks up your man vs machine allegory.

But the fact that she used her machine body to fight it and that she was rescued by someone who's less machine than her, also does fuck it up.

SAC is the only good GITS ecranisation.

>In order to overcome her weaknesses in a world where beings like the Puppetmaster will become more and more common she had to go as far as to abandon even the human form and become a human consciousness that is now one with technology.
Not willingly though. It's just how things turned out.
She only makes two decisions in that scene: attacking the tank, and getting Batou to connect her with the puppetmaster. All the rest is the tank doing stuff to her, Batou helping her, and the puppetmaster doing stuff to her.

Not the best way to deliver that supposed message.

>But she is also human in that she cares about others and she can get angry or panic.

That doesn't sound like her. She doesn't seem to give a shit about anybody except herself.
And she does occasionally express feelings but not anger and panic.

I want to give you all responses, but I have work to deal with so I won't be able to. Given how slow this thread has been I can see it dying before I get back.
I apologize for the inability to continue this discussion.

Have a blueberry for forgiveness.

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I'm the same guy

just remind me if the guy is actually controlled by the puppetmaster

The Puppetmaster said that he had to download his consciousness to a cybernetic body to escape S6.
Batou also has to hook up Motoko to the body in the tank for the merger between the Major and the AI to happen, and when that body was destroyed the Puppetmaster was destroyed as well - this tells me that 'he' was controlling and inhabiting that body during the battle.

i'll give it a quick rewatch cause I don't remember the dude from section 6 being involved in it.

Possible though.

Would still be very silly of the puppetmaster to attack Motoko even though it's been flirting with her since the middle of the film and asked section 9 to protect it from section 6.

Very silly.

I'm gonna give it a re-watch as well to see what I fucked up here. Take care my guy

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While this thread is specifically about the first GiTS, i'd like to say that Innocence was some pseduo-intellectual bullshit. Can't believe anyone likes that crap.

Ah, the device Batou uses is indeed plugged into the pilot's helmet, but if you look better, that's because Batou is using the tank's control unit, which he tore out of the tank, to act as a relay between himself and the two girls.

So the pilot is still plugged into it but he's got nothing to do with the puppetmaster, he was just using that gizmo to control the tank and now he's dead.

...

Why would I want to go there? All they talk about is capeshit and webcomics.

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you better not be shit talking basset hounds there son.

If you think visual direction is only about sakuga you don’t know shit about anime, filmmaking or art in general, and you belong on Yea Forums where you can jack off to flat sakuga showcases

Innocence convinced me that Oshii lost is mojo after Patlabor and that GitS 95 was his last hurray.
Innocence feels like it has to be "smart" by throwing quotes at you every 5 seconds, which only makes it heavy-handed and boring. It really felt like that movie thinks people are idiots who can't see through its bullshit.
Also, I hate how Oshii seems like he can't help but try to do his best to remove any likable qualities from the characters in his movies. In Patlabor, the characters are still there and still cool, but in GitS 95 we're already deep into bland and OOC territory, and the most memorable character in Innocence is a fucking dog.

Gits 95 isn't his last good film; up until the mid 2000s he's been recycling the same themes throughout his movies, and he eventually got to something pretty solid a bit after GitS.
Innocence is just the dregs of this process. What happens once you got nothing left to explore.

Goddamn the puppetmaster is a cunt.
Look at this smug piece of shit, smirking at Batou as he tries to unplug Motoko. Smirking at him with Motoko's body no less.

Fuck that's a creepy look.

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beautiful man this is.

Betting my left testicle this is coming from someone who accuses every work that lacks massive amounts of critical acclaim as poorly storyboarded.

Shut the fuck up and post more cute/sexy/cool/intimidating Motokos, you nitpicky OP

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SAC is GITS for people who don't like GITS. SAC Major is a dull character.

nah, Arise and Oshii's movies are further removed from the source material than SAC is.

Just saw GITS movies last weekend. Movies are great. How can SAC even top that ?

It can't and doesn't. I was never fond of the GITS movie, but SAC genuinely managed to make me fall asleep. Tried to watch the show past midway point about 4 times. Simply couldn't manage to do it.

I started SAC a while ago. While it is an enjoyable series, I dislike what they did to Batou.
Batou in the movie has expertise, formidable presence, he's calm, collected, and fairly wise.
Batou in SAC has some "I made an oopsie poopsie guys, teehee" moments that irritate me.

Awright.

What's the deal with that shot in your opinion?
in Motoko's POV shots the puppetmaster's feathers are flickering cause they're obviously CG.
But here they look real, and Motoko's hair is all ruffled whereas in the other shots it's wet and still. So that shot right there isn't happening in the physical world.

I this real mystical stuff or is it part of a simulated experience, as the CG feathers from the POV shots would indicate? What's your take?

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The fuck are you even talking about? Batou is way more human and likeable in Innocence than he was in GITS 1995, because he's the fucking main character this time around.

Would be a lot less jarring if the dork moments were more evenly distributed between the characters, as they originally were.

SAC has really pedestrian writing.

Haven't seen it in a while but from what I remember, Batou in Innocence is less relatable. In the first movie he's a down to earth guy with somewhat realistic reactions, whereas in Innocence he's Motoko all over again, which is to say a creepy weirdo who quotes stuff.
But with a basset hound.

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How the fuck do you even get any work done when your commanding officer shows up to the office like this? Poor Togusa is suffering the most.

Togusa is a married man who has kids. His libido's as good as dead.

Same way Motoko can stop herself from rubbing her crotch against all available surfaces despite being a giant slut; sheer willpower.

>you’re wrong because boogieman
Cringe

Not really. People gloss over half of Batou's characterisation in 1995, sure he is more 'human' than Major but he's still a creepy weirdo. Some mistake his relationship with Major as friendship or unrequited love or whatever, but that's not it. Batou worships Major in a non-romantic way, she's basically his goddess and he's her loyal servant. Major is obviously more demonic than angelic but this is Batou's perspective. Batou is pretty relatable in Innocence, he feels abandoned and without a purpose so he turns into a suicidal drunk which is more 'human' than being a stoic cultist.

Merely accusing you of lacking basic expertise in any of the areas you've chosen to mention. Nuffin personell.

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GITS always reminded me of this game for some reason. I can't even remember much from the game.

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Nah he doesn't worship her, if he did he wouldn't tell her to "cut the angst" or "that's bullshit", and he wouldn't scold her for almost drowning herself.

He's certainly trying to be courteous and to keep his distances, she's his boss after all, and he admires her. But he's not a creepy weirdo like that.

Could it be because Motoko is quite the oni herself ?

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Possibly

No bonking here, this is a gremlin-friendly thread.

>and he wouldn't scold her for almost drowning herself.
He's frustrated at himself, because he can't fully predict Major or understand her motivations. He doesn't want to feel like he can't be useful to Major.

and expresses that in a way no worshipper would even consider.

If you want religious sentiment in that movie look no further than Motoko's fascination for the puppetmaster. Although that could just be her carpet-munching tendencies.

It is less philosophical by far, but it deals with actual issues and problems in a Cyber Punk world.
Its one of the better works of Cyber Punk in general regardless of medium.

...

go get some amphetamines to treat your ADHD then, you need more than a 30 second attention span to enjoy it

Or, more reasonably, the series needs better pacing.

It's not our fucking job to be entertained by it, it's the studio's job to make something that can entertain people in a consistent manner.

Just because there isn't a gunfight every two minutes doesn't mean the pacing is off. Absolutely nothing wrong with about a slowly unfolding plot and some comfy slower time for character developement. How the heck could you enjoy the 1996 gits and then claim that SAC makes you fall asleep? There are many valid critic points but it sure as hell isn't boring.

>boomer preferring SAC
in what fucking universe? SACfags are overwhelmingly younger millenials and SAC was made after anime in general started sucking ass, it's not an example of "the good old days", it's an uncharacteristically decent anomaly in the very same shitty era of culture we still currently live in, and it's part of the downward slope the franchise has been on since the very beginning.

No, but, because exposition goes on for minutes at a time with nothing cool going on in the frame, now that does mean that the pacing is off.

slowly unfolding plot =/= scenes progressing at a glacial pace with no tension. In a series no less.

>How the heck could you enjoy the 1996 gits and then claim that SAC makes you fall asleep?
the movie has the same problem. But it has one thing that kind of makes up for it: it looks gorgeous even when it's a still frame. SAC doesn't.

And while we're at it the manga also has that problem, but you can read it at your own pace and, again, it's a lot prettier than SAC.

the boomer is a lot less bitter and fatalistic than the doomer though, as long as he's not supposed to be older it kinda makes sense. he can see and appreciate SAC for what it is, a pretty solid anime that explores things the manga and movie didn't. Doesn't take away anything from the fantastic movie.

the "doomer" is just some loser emo bitch addicted to wojakposting, he doesn't count, he doesn't have a taste of his own, he only follows automatic impulses imprinted upon his unthinking brain meat by some internet hivemind.

So the movie is not for the loser to claim.

And I wasn't suggesting that the boomer should be into the movie (although he very much would be), anyway, he should be into the manga, the PS1 game, and Appleseed.

SAC fleshes out the manga ideals so well and the world building is immaculate

Some of the Stand Alone episodes in 2nd Gig episodes are some of the best things in GITS period

>Poker Face
>草迷宮 AFFECTION
>Trail

none of that is a problem and no shit SAC looked worse than the movie, there's like 25 hours of it.
Something being slow and "moving at a glacial speed" doesn't mean the pacing is off. Slow sequences are a thing in pretty much any damn form of media, from manga and anime to music, literature and movies. If you removed "slow sequences" from books like the brothers karamazov you could probably cut their pagecount in half but sure as hell wouldn't get a better book. One of the most memorable scenes from spirited away is a girl sitting in a tram for 3 minutes with fuck all happening. The godfather spends time on an old fuck walking through his garden, looking at kids and buying oranges. Patlabor has noa and azuma fucking around doing nothing. Slow sequences aren't inherently bad, what is important is what you do with them.

i always thought the doomer was just some nihilistic guy disconnected from the world, not a wojakposting emo. what you propose also seems to go beyond the scope of that meme, the idea seems to have been to fill all three stages with gits

The world building is indeed pretty great. Not sure it was worth the loss of everything that wasn't copied from the first manga, though.

Stand Alone Complex has so any 10/10 moments some of Yoko Kanno's best work as well

You're not wrong and that's why they're the best movies.

What did you loose? It doesn't adapt many things from the manga and it probably would've been better if it had but that doesn't mean it can't be good or enjoyable because of that. It's not just the worldbuilding, it's also the character developement and background information that's quite well done. Combined with pretty solid animation quality and an amazing soundtrack it makes for a fun ride.

I don't want this to turn into Dub vs Sub faggotry and are probably making a mistake bringing this up, but check out the Gits:SAC dub if you haven't. Its one of the best that I have seen.

This, how much you wanna bet the people hating on SAC are watching some shitty fansub GITS notoriously difficult to translate so the result was several versions done by fan groups with super shit translations

All of that is a problem. Things moving at a glacial pace -with no tension- (I did mention that, don't you go omitting it) results in poor pacing. Slow sequences, like fast sequences, have to be used when it's advantageous instead of being an unfortunate side-effect of bloated dialog.

Also, as I said, you can read things at your own pace and get essentially the same experience. fast-forwarding through SAC's dialog makes everything look silly.

>If you removed "slow sequences" from books like the brothers karamazov you could probably cut their pagecount in half but sure as hell wouldn't get a better book
That's arguable. Besides you can shorten the slow sequences instead of cutting them out entirely. Same deal with SAC. I liked the brothers karamazov but I don't think it has no room for improvement in the pacing department.

>One of the most memorable scenes from spirited away is a girl sitting in a tram for 3 minutes with fuck all happening.
Yeah that's one I don't remember. I remember seeing a screenshot of it but I don't remember actually watching it. I do remember the giant grandma though. And the bathing.

>The godfather spends time on an old fuck walking through his garden, looking at kids and buying oranges.
he walking through the garden scene is cool because he's finally beginning to loosen up, there's dynamic change there, character development, emotion. And he doesn't buy oranges for ten fucking minutes, he goes over here, the others have a chat about something that matters and he gets shot. That's the part I remember, not the buying of the oranges.

Slow sequences aren't inherently bad, but they're often bad in Ghost in the Shell as a whole franchise because they're often just lazy infodumps.

>no shit SAC looked worse than the movie, there's like 25 hours of it.
That's not an excuse, that's just an explanation. Same as how "I really wanted your car so I stole it from you" is not an excuse for theft.

So, is the Major a total slut just to still 'feel' something human? She seems to have at least 5 girls she regularly cyberfucks, and has had a few boyfriends in the shows/movies. I remember the original mangaka had her fuck girls cuz he didn't want to draw male asses.

evenly distributed humor
excellent character designs
the USSR
personality traits
All those things would have been improvements

also, explicit supernatural shit, but that can go both ways.

You sound very eager to assume that things cannot have been better than they turned out to be. It is a fun ride but at a lamentable cost

she says that "a psychiatrist would call it the revenge of the body I lost"
coping mechanism for losing her actual body

the truth of the matter is that she's just a slut

Didn't she lose her body before birth? Guess she is just a slut.

no, she lost it around age 12

except maybe in Arise

I explitly wrote that it probably could've been better. I'm saying that I'm happy that what we've got is, depending on what aspect you look at, decent to very good. Il'll take what I can get and be happy if it is engaging and fun to watch. It evidently didn't burn the ground for new attempts at creating a gits anime. It's just that that attempt was godawful. And in a few months we'll see that netflix sponsored production IG adaption fucking it up again, maybe even worse than arise.

Arguable, some of the changes brought by Ito tighten the plot in a much-needed way, but what was visibly Oshii's idea is a mixed bag that can hinder as much as it elevates.

My bad, I misread that.

it follows the manga skipping only a few small pieces. unlike the stand alone complex which takes place in a alternate time like with tachikomas instead of fujikoma where the major doesnt retire and never merges with project 2501

the magne and anime movie have nothing to do with actiuon and its more like a jap version of blade runner. where is the line between man and machine in a world in which cybernetic enhancement of brains is common place and interfacing with machines can be done by direct connection to cybernetically enhanced brain. a world where new bodies can be bought . a brief discussion about how little of both the major and batou are human covers the general idea. if they retire they have to give up parts of their bodies and there wouldnt be much left

>i always thought the doomer was just some nihilistic guy disconnected from the world
That's what he's supposed to be, but he's also meant to represent the people who post it, and the people who post it are wojakposting emo bitches, and it's visible in the meme itself.

What I'm suggesting is to excise that forced meme from existence through the systematic extermination of the people who propagate it. Preferably involving large doses of insecticide, and pruning shears.

Well they're pretty significant pieces in some cases. Like the revelation that magic is real.
>the magne and anime movie have nothing to do with actiuon and its more like a jap version of blade runner.
wat?

anyway the similarities with blade runner are purely coincidental according to Oshii. Everyone latches onto the "is deckard a replicant / is Motoko a robot" thing but it wasn't in the earlier cuts of Blade Runner. And Blade Runner gives you a clear answer to what really matters about humanity: freedom of choice. GitS on the other hand doesn't go into that.

>That's arguable. Besides you can shorten the slow sequences instead of cutting them out entirely. Same deal with SAC. I liked the brothers karamazov but I don't think it has no room for improvement in the pacing department.
I don't think that's arguable at all, the slow passages in the brothers karamazov fulfill their purpose. If you want to portray the emotional landscape of your protagonists as well as dostoevsky does you need to give your reader some room to breathe. Even notes from underground, an incredibly dense and heavy short story, has slow passages, mostly in the wet snow part. There have been tens of thousands of authors, the most renowned ones usually aren't those that gave you action packed scenes and some shitty TL;DR abbreviations to fill the gaps between them.
>that's one I don't remember
oh come on
>he walking through the garden scene is cool because he's finally beginning to loosen up, there's dynamic change there, character development, emotion.
And the slow SAC scenes are filled with drying paint? If I described it like you describe SAC it's an old man inspecting tomato plants, hardly captivating.
SAC definetly has moments where it becomes a bit boring but it's nowhere near as bad as you claim.

>That's not an excuse, that's just an explanation.
If you want to put it like that, sure. I'd say it's putting things into context. If I didn't miss anything SAC still has the highest per episode budget of any TV anime, and it looks like it. Claiming that it looking worse than the ridiculously expensive 1996 movie is valid criticism is foolish

>I don't think that's arguable at all, the slow passages in the brothers karamazov fulfill their purpose
yes but the question actually is: do they fulfill it in the best possible way?
>you need to give your reader some room to breathe
yes, but does it really need to be that much room? Shouldn't it be more or less?
You're operating on a lot of assumptions.

Starting with the assumption that I hate slow passages in general, which is false, I just hate slow passages where nothing significant is being achieved, and I hate when information is conveyed in a less than efficient manner. There is a middle ground between TL;DR abbreviations and the TL;DR text itself. SAC isn't that middle ground.
>oh come on
I remember them side by side, I loosely remember seeing water. I think it might have been a bonding moment or something but I don't remember any specifics.

>And the slow SAC scenes are filled with drying paint? If I described it like you describe SAC it's an old man inspecting tomato plants, hardly captivating.
they're filled with characters standing around in offices and vans, frequently with flat shots, and they aren't fun to look at.
>If you want to put it like that, sure
no no no. Not if I want to put it like that. If it is like that, and it is. SAC didn't have to be made, everyone involved could have refused if they cared more about putting out a perfect product than about getting paid. They made their choice, it resulted in something suboptimal. This is not the result of fatality, it's the result of a series of choices, involving an excessive degree of tolerance for mediocrity.

>Claiming that it looking worse than the ridiculously expensive 1996 movie is valid criticism is foolish

They clearly did not use that time and budget the way they should have. Which is to say: cram it all into three or four perfect episodes and tell the executives to go fuck themselves. Work for free if necessary. Budget is no excuse, they chose to stick to a subpar formula

>You're operating on a lot of assumptions.
i don't think so. i chose that book as example because out of all of dostoevskys works (or literature in general) it has probably the highest critical acclaim. not once did i read anywhere that the pacing was off or the slow sequences should've been more condensed. Reich-Ranicki probably would've tried to strangle anyone that tried to claim so.
>I think it might have been a bonding moment or something but I don't remember any specifics.
go watch it then. it isn't a bonding moment, there is no dialogue, nothing major happens. just tree minutes of pretty much nothing. and it's captivating
>they're filled with characters standing around in offices and vans, frequently with flat shots, and they aren't fun to look at.
the characters standing around in offices generally talk about something when they're seen

>SAC didn't have to be made
it was made, and the result is quite soild. it's one of the best TV anime that came out in the past two decades and even in the scope of gits and compared to the movie i wouldn't call it mediocre

>it has probably the highest critical acclaim.
You're just telling me what you're basing your assumptions on, right there. You aren't negating the fact that they're assumptions.
Also Reich-Doesntmatter can suck my cock.

>go watch it then. it isn't a bonding moment, there is no dialogue, nothing major happens. just tree minutes of pretty much nothing. and it's captivating
Maybe it captivated you, sure as fuck didn't captivate everyone.
>the characters standing around in offices generally talk about something when they're seen
Something that often appears to be of little importance judging from the lack of emphasis that's put on most exposition scenes. Also a problem with the manga. But at least the manga has pretty visuals.

>it was made, and the result is quite soild.
No, the result is a net positive in spite of the problems I mentioned. I don't think those issues are small enough to call the result "solid". If this show wasn't linked with GitS I wouldn't even have watched more than one episode.

lol dont care nutted to motoko more than 100 times bitch sexy cumslut haha

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That's what she is.

less sexy in SAC than she ought to be, though.

fuck i'm tired, missed that part
>I just hate slow passages where nothing significant is being achieved, and I hate when information is conveyed in a less than efficient manner. There is a middle ground between TL;DR abbreviations and the TL;DR text itself.
conveying information efficiently is absolutely not something any creator strives for just for the sake of efficiency. Being concise is something that's commendable in scientific literature, not in art. It's something that may be a byproduct of the message and emotions you're trying to convey. If we go bac to the brothers karamazov ivans story of the grand inquisitor is a good example for something that gets an idea (organized religion bad, arrogance of man) to the reader incredibly inefficiently but does a great job for character developement in the context of the story and bringing the emotions and core beliefs of the protagonists across.

>You're just telling me what you're basing your assumptions on, right there. You aren't negating the fact that they're assumptions.
assumption implies that it is unfounded, it is not. go argue with the people that study this shit or explain why so many of this worlds greatest novels are thick as fuck tomes with tons of slow passages that according to you could be condensed
>Maybe it captivated you, sure as fuck didn't captivate everyone.
yeah, apparently not. that may be related to autism and adhd though because it was absolutely marvelous
>Something that often appears to be of little importance judging from the lack of emphasis that's put on most exposition scenes.
mostly didn't leave that impression on me at all.
>If this show wasn't linked with GitS I wouldn't even have watched more than one episode.
if that's your standard you can't have enjoyed more than a handful of TV anime

anyways, it's late here, i'm off to bed

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I hated the first season of SAC where they dressed her in that swimsuit. Her second season outfit was better, it fit the feel of the show better.
The first season's stuck out in a bad way.

manga was shit

>conveying information efficiently is absolutely not something any creator strives for just for the sake of efficiency
which often leads to bad pacing
being concise is something that's commendable in stories that are supposed to evoke a sense of urgency; such as techno-thrillers like GitS. GitS, and especially SAC, is driven less by "the message and emotions" than by a very down-to-earth plot, so when the characters are standing around for whole minutes detailing which government official said what to which spy about what, yeah, some things need to be approached differently.
Not the same thing as the grand inquisitor's parable at all. Which isn't just meant to convey information by the way, it's a story in its own right and it's meant to convince you on top of simply telling you its message. Does a pretty good job.
>assumption implies that it is unfounded, it is not
No, assumptions can be founded. Not all foundations are stable, yours is not.
>go argue with the people that study this shit
I won't, I have little interest in this shit, and they might have too much.
>yeah, apparently not. that may be related to autism and adhd though because it was absolutely marvelous
Or, quite possibly, it wasn't marvelous and should have been improved somehow.
>mostly didn't leave that impression on me at all.
SAC has a very neutral directing style, there's not much emphasis put on anything. Even the action scenes aren't always stylish and cool.

>if that's your standard you can't have enjoyed more than a handful of TV anime
Nobody should enjoy more than a handful of TV anime.

I mean look at where we're at: SAC, most expensive TV anime ever made, it's merely pretty good.

wrong as fuck
the leotard is her saving grace. Without her leotard the eye ends up drawn back to her face and that's where things go wrong.

>it's a story in its own right and it's meant to convince you on top of simply telling you its message. Does a pretty good job.
It does a terrible job at convincing you of ivans core beliefs efficiently. most philosophers shove more information into a single page and the papers i have to deal with at work put a 34 step retrosynthesis into 3 half sentences. "conveying information efficiently" as in concise, short and dense is simply an incredibly shitty metric for arts. The grand inquisiotor part works great, and it works great because it is inefficient. It takes time to unfold, it grants you room to breathe and think. it doesn't squeeze the information and emotions it tries to convey into as little space as possible, going for a compromise between what it is supposed to evoke and pages used. it takes however many pages the artist deemed necessary
>yours is not.
again, go tell the critics then that the brothers karamazov is 400 pages to long. somehow they didn't came to that conclusion
>Or, quite possibly, it wasn't marvelous and should have been improved somehow.
somehow almost everyone you ask about it seems to like it

>Nobody should enjoy more than a handful of TV anime.
that's just retarded. if you limit yourself to only getting enjoyment out of the masterpieces of their respective disciplines your life will be really fucking empty. enjoying a "pretty good" something takes nothing away from them

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That leotard was terrible. Its a serious and rather smartly written show, so seeing the MC (or secondary MC given Togusa's focus) dressed like that is just annoying.
Its the worst kind of fan-service in that it conflicts directly with the atmosphere of the show.

I love the show but cannot tell people who 'aren't in the know' to watch it without explaining to the that 'thats just how she looks man, trust me the writing is great".

How is it pseudo intellectual when it only just directly quotes philosophers and philosophical concepts? They don't actually try to come up with anything themselves, it's only just used for symbolism.

>I love the show but cannot tell people who 'aren't in the know' to watch it without explaining to the that 'thats just how she looks man, trust me the writing is great".
And this is a bad thing because?

>exactly why people consider this being a masterful animated movie?
Because it looks dark and gritty.

Bump
And why have you stopped posting Motokos? Come on, anons, don't disappoint me

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>Ghost in the shell 1996 has shit animation
who do you even think would take you seriously with a title like this, honestly ?

The dub apologist post and the instant upvote. Pottery.

>that's just retarded. if you limit yourself to only getting enjoyment out of the masterpieces of their respective disciplines your life will be really fucking empty. enjoying a "pretty good" something takes nothing away from them
That's just a good way to avoid bullshit.
I also enjoy schlock from time to time but I try to make sure that it doesn't go on for many hours before reaching a conclusion, unlike TV anime.
Besides, an empty life is better than a life spent wrong; Masturbation is generally a better way to spend time. Try it.

>again, go tell the critics then that the brothers karamazov is 400 pages to long. somehow they didn't came to that conclusion
Again, these people are not reliable, they have a vested interest in upholding the myth that the book is perfect. And I didn't say that it was 400 pages too long, that's something you're saying.
>It does a terrible job at convincing you of ivans core beliefs efficiently. most philosophers shove more information into a single page and the papers i have to deal with at work put a 34 step retrosynthesis into 3 half sentences.
guess it's not as good of a passage as I remembered then. Or maybe it is, and maybe it's still not perfect. You're trying to convince me that it's as good as it can be, because it does things SAC shouldn't have done. Can you see why that's not very convincing?
>"conveying information efficiently" as in concise, short and dense is simply an incredibly shitty metric for arts.
It's a good metric for certain kinds of arts, as I explained. You have been implying throughout this discussion that GitS is the same form of entertainment as The Brothers Karamazov and should follow the same writing parameters to be as good as it can be, leading you to come up with silly strawmen like "the brothers karamazov is 400 pages to long"
>somehow almost everyone you ask about it seems to like it
seems to like it =/= thinks it's absolutely marvelous

SAC has pacing issues. It's not hard to admit.

The atmosphere of the show is indeed undermined by Motoko's leotard, just as Motoko's leotard is undermined by the atmosphere of the show.

Dunno what normalfags have to do with this though.

This is funny. I've been watching SAC recently and the subs were so annoyingly convoluted that for the first time ever, I switched to the dub and stayed with it. I still don't like it but the subs for that show are nearly incomprehensible at some points. It's not that I can't read them fast enough, is that the sentence structure is hurting me and what is written doesn't make sense. Some of it is just gibberish.

My favourite works of animation are slower than GITS SAC. They just happen to sport characters and plot threads with actual emotional depth and meaning. I couldn't even give a shit about major's flashback episodes. The show is bloody terrible and reeling the viewer in.

Ok, you made me think of GITS so it's a question time
Should I DL 1995 movie version or the redone 2008 one for my rewatch?
Is GITS Arise worth checking out?

I appreciate you ignoring Arise Major.

1995
no

1995 if you want better visuals without bullshit added over it.
2008 if you want the Puppetmaster to have a female voice

that's about it.

manga major > all except for arise major because nice hair don't care about the plot

>arise
>nice hair
She's got the worst hair by far, looks like she's balding