"You'll become a magical girl and fight witches, but eventually you'll turn into a witch too...

Actually, Kyubei's species was doing this since the cavemans, and Homura was the first and only girl who did what she did. So no, there wasn't such a risk at first. Also, no girl knew the truth about the witches until Madoka entered the picture. So also no, there was also no risk of girls feeling betrayed as no girls knew it.

I wish unlimited wishes

>and all of this drama could have been avoided.
The whole point of the magical girl system is drama. Every single part of it is designed to maximize the suffering as much as possible.

Literally the only reason he gives even one fuck about that is to save his own sorry ass. When his actions basically fuck up Earth beyond all repair his response is pretty much "Lol, not my problem".

B-b-but he's cute and also literally me so he can't be villain...

>and Homura was the first and only girl who did what she did.
As far as we know, anyhow. It's possible that another girl traveled back to the past. But since their goal wasn't to save histories biggest martyr without a cause, things didn't spin completely out of control.

>Also, no girl knew the truth about the witches until Madoka entered the picture
I find that INCREDIBLY unlikely. Even ignoring that i'm pretty sure spin offs do actually feature girls before Madoka knowing the truth about witches.

Like, Kyubey is a massive fuck up. He turned a teenage girl into god by accident, TWICE. It's a miracle the system didn't blow up in his face early.

>Literally me.
Are there actually people like that? Because unless actual lovecraftian deities regularly visit Yea Forums, i somewhat doubt it.

There's really no way to prove otherwise.

No he's just spewing memes for the sake of spewing memes

What is good about “preventing heat death of the universe”? nothing, really

I mean, obviously. But that kind of goes both ways. The strongest evidence we have that he was telling the truth is that God Madoka apparently thought it was worth keeping the magical girl system around.

>But he also runs a great risk of powerful girls who feel betrayed fucking with his plans
Eternal survival of you civilization is on the line.
Go big or go home.

More importantly, why didn't they make him look like this?

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Because I would want to turn him into a fleshlight

Allowing countless civilizations to continue to exist and grow.

>Implying most magical girl societies aren't eventually destroyed by witches.

I guess the alternative to constant destruction and creation is to let entropy end everything

How about, like, not solving this problem by harvesting the souls of dead children?

It’s not. The incubators use their emotions because it’s the only. Perpetual motion doesn’t exist and noting in our universe that we can tell creates more energy than it uses. The incubators found that human emotion converted into energy actually surpasses perpetual motion and in order to maximize that they use teenage girls who naturally are more emotional than most other types of humans.

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I bet teenage boys are more emotional though

They’re not as far as the Madoka universe goes or else the Incubators would have used them.

You might have a point there, expect that Madoka DID find a way to solve this whole problem in a way that didn't involve the harvesting of child souls. Which she did using the technology Kyubey has at his possession.

She did, but it's most likely not as efficient as the method involving witches. Literally just rewatched the last episode right now and Kyubey tells Homu that the method she described certainly sounds efficient had they thought of it.

The real reason Kyubey didn't use teenage boys as well is because he knows that nothing keeps somebody from falling into despair than fighting together with a member of the opposite sex.

One day we'll find a way to solve the problem of entropy in real life, and Kyubey is going to look really dumb.

It being less effective is not the same thing as it not working. It still works, and that's all that matters.

Saying what OP said also runs the risk of magical girls planning ahead and possibly colluding with witches to prevent being turned

>fighting inhuman monsters
>risking becoming monsters themselves
That's your average teenage boy fantasy in Jap land. The most basic of chuuni tropes. No kids would even felt impacted by that shit.

Not only would they have to find another way of creating endless energy through perpetual motion but they’d have to find a way that works as good or better than using emotions of human girls. This machine would have to produce energy faster than the ENTIRE UNIVERSE is losing it or at least a big enough portion of it that the incubators are happy with if you believe the universe is infinite.

Most of the fake perpetual motion machines you see online if they actually worked (which they don’t) would only barely produce more power than they’re using by a tiny margin. Nothing even close to what the incubators are trying to accomplish.*

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What are you talking about? The incubators give no shits about anything but efficiency, using girls to create witches was the best way of doing things. Madoka rewrote the laws of the universe and the new laws are suspected to be less efficient because Kyubey confirms that Homu's story sounds like it would work better were it possible in their world and had they thought of it themselves. Efficiency is literally the name of the game.

Can someone give me a tldw

what does it mean

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If Iron man can do it than so can we.

Again, we know a method exists. Like, I agree that it would take a while. But you can't exactly say that Kyubey's race doesn't have a while to find a different method. Heat death of the universe is going to take a while and all that.

It’s ligit the greatest story ever told. One of the few must watch anime in the Industry. Go watch it stupid.

I know that the incubators are jerks. My point was that if you actually care about the wellbeing of other civilizations, with Kyubey does not, then there are better methods.

meguca is suffering

*Which Kyubey does not

Well "better" in the sense that it doesn't cause pain and suffering yeah probably. But they might as well just be robots since they don't care about anything but making sure the universe doesn't implode.

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Yea, and the method is the one the Incubators are using currently in that universe. There’s no other known methods and I’m sure the incubators in their home planet or whatever are looking for ways. They evolved humans as an experiment in order to help solve the problem. They’re probably doing all kinds of things throughout the universe.

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Interesting how these all powerful beings never genetically engineered a species with more emotions then human beings. Or how over thousands of years Homura was apparently the only time traveling Magical Girl. Or how they never just tricked girls into wishing parts of entrophy away even by a little bit.

It's the one where the boy becomes a magic girl right?

I think I fapped to some porn of it, if the story is good I'll check it out

They help earth plenty in return and they give the girls a wish instead of just taking what they want like harvesting cows in a farm. The incubators are extremely generous. They’re literally the only reasons humans aren’t perpetually living in the Stone Age in caves in the Madoka universe.

>Or how they never just tricked girls into wishing parts of entrophy away even by a little bit.
Why would anyone ever wish for that?

And then they destroy the planet.

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'Oh these witch things are the consequence of a search for countering entrophy which is this really bad thing that will destroy the entire universe. Boy it sure would be convient if that entrophy would go away that way no more witches would be born and the universe would be saved!'

It would be so easy to trick kids into thinking they'd save the world if they knew the universe was at stake.

The Incubators don’t understand emotions and earth as far as humans go is relatively young. The Incubators are making major progress contrary to what you’re saying and there might have been other time traveling magical girls. The difference is for everything including to play out the same leading up to what happened in Rebellion is such a stroke of chance that it could have taken billions of years longer just to happen once. Also magical girls can’t make a wish that exceeds their karmic destiny or else they’ll instantly transform into a witch.

>I am right
>I just have to lie to people because I am so right

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>They’re probably doing all kinds of things throughout the universe.
What gives you that impression? There isn't much to imply they aren't satisfied with this solution.

They were willing to let Earth get eaten after getting a certain amount of energy, that must mean that they have other projects going somewhere

>They help earth plenty in return and they give the girls a wish instead of just taking what they want like harvesting cows in a farm.
Expect for, you know, their actions result in the complete destruction of the earth in one timeline.

>They’re literally the only reasons humans aren’t perpetually living in the Stone Age in caves in the Madoka universe.
That was literally just something Kyubey claimed. And even then, only as a possibility. It's probably complete bullshit considering how badly witches fucked up society.

Yea, and with the energy they got from Madoka they could create more earths and humans and preserve life in the universe for a lot longer. They basically completely refueled the gas tank of the universe with Madoka’s energy.

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> ask for the ability to use small amounts of mundane energy to purge your soul gem
BAM! problem solved. Put your soul gem into a boiling pot every evening to recharge it. Use your magical power to seduce an old man to pay the electricity bill and you're golden.

Umm... technically, Madoka did that.

The fact that they were willing to let earth get eaten kind of implies the opposite. That they just don't give a fuck about anybody as long as they can get as much energy as possible to save their own hides.

It was QB's explicit plan to have Madoka eat the planet and they acted to try and bring about that result. You can't really blame anyone else for it.

I've said it before, Kyubey is kind of really incompetent at what he does. He seems to understand his own technology about as well as the magical girls do.

>Expect for, you know, their actions result in the complete destruction of the earth in one timeline.

Madoka destoyed the earth and the energy they got from that was completely worth it in the grand scheme of things. Also you’re implying the Incubators have the power to kill Gretchen? I don’t think so.

>That was literally just something Kyubey claimed. And even then, only as a possibility. It's probably complete bullshit considering how badly witches fucked up society.

Why would he lie? Why? He has no reason to lie and no emotion.

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>they could create more earths and humans
[x] doubt

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Inb4 we become the kyubeys

No, it wasn’t his plan. He didn’t even know about a lot of what was going on. It was a result of Homura charging Madoka up to the point that she did.

Veni,
Vidi,
Yea Forums - Yea Forums

Uncheck that doubt because know that they know this system works there’s absolutely no way they don’t do what they did with the humans over again. Why the hell wouldn’t they continue to use the ONLY form of perpetual motion they know? Your doubt is completely unreasonable.

Having QB's abilities sounds like a tonne of fun. Imagine being able to become the director of your own real-life dramas and cuddle with teenage girls, all while being immortal and having multiple bodies. QB really is missing out by not having emotions.

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So they don't understand human emotions enough to make better versions of them but they can somehow use these feelings to counter an all powerful force that will destroy the universe, are capable of taking out souls from a person's body, and know how know about how the nervous system works enough to make soul gems? It'd literally just take a few more horomones and rewiring.

They should still know that time traveling magical girls are a thing though. And if they're smart enough to manipulate the universe to the extent that they normally do they should have had some way to understand how to theoretically increase karmatic destiny through converging timelines.

>karmatic destiny

It doesn't have to be all of entrophy, just little pieces of it. Besides it'd still benefit them to have witches anyways.

>let

I’m sure if they were able to beat Gretchen with some kind of chance at winning that’s not 0% they would have offered up something considering they don’t mind dying. The problem is because of what Homura did Madoka’s witch was absolutely unstoppable and the incubators aren’t about to to go war with it in order to help .0000000000000000000001% of the universe. They don’t have an emotional connection. They’re emotionless but not evil.

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I wish you and your kind would have never bothered humanity
Done.

Do you want to be a caveman?

Homura got extremely lucky. Most if not all other magical girls would instantly witch out if they made a wish like Homura did. Madoka is by far the strongest artificially empowered magical girl because timelines surrounded her but you’ve got to realize how insane Homura’s karmic destiny is. Her fate followed her throughout those timelines because she’s not a different person like the other characters are every time she time travels. She’s the same and it only worked because Madoka would eventually make the wish she did resulting in the events of Rebellion. If it didn’t happen “exactly” like that Homura and 99.99% of other wishers would instantly die the second they made that wish.

>Also you’re implying the Incubators have the power to kill Gretchen
They turned a teenage girl into god, killing one witch shouldn't be too much of a bother for them.

>Why would he lie?
To make sure Madoka doesn't try and dismantle the magical girl system with her wish. It's not a lie anyway, since even Kyubey states it as a hypothetical rather than a fact.

Again, turned a girl into god. They can beat Gretchen.

If she's THAT much of a threat. Then she would have probably proceeded to eat the entire universe.

They are just a tool that creates the potential for the energy. Even if there were other time traveling girls it doesn't make a difference. The only reason Homu's case was special is because she kept switching worlds for the sole purpose of saving Meguca. So she in herself didn't actually become a whole lot more powerful but her selflessness put more potential energy in Megucas wish. Yeah the incubators had the ability to create these huge massive bridges but they themselves weren't able to actually cross them.

>They turned a teenage girl into god, killing one witch shouldn't be too much of a bother for them.

They didn’t. Homura did that by messing with the fundamental laws of the universe ( ) and as you see here it’s something that just happened by extreme chance. It’s nothing the incubators could have controlled and they even admit that emotions are too dangerous to mess with in Rebellion.

>To make sure Madoka doesn't try and dismantle the magical girl system with her wish. It's not a lie anyway, since even Kyubey states it as a hypothetical rather than a fact.

That wouldn’t effect her wish though and he wouldn’t care if she hated him or how she perceived him because he literally doesn’t understand emotion. He didn’t lie to her.

That's propaganda. The progress made through magical girl wishes is about the same as the progress lost through the actions of witches.

They didn’t turn a girl into god. Homura did and yes, Gretchen is that much of a threat.

The only reason Homura could mess with the laws of the universe is because of Kyubey's tech. Going by everything we know about them, their race is stupidly op.

>That wouldn’t effect her wish though and he wouldn’t care if she hated him or how she perceived him because he literally doesn’t understand emotion.
He doesn't understand emotions, but he does understand that certain things are better left unsaid while others should be focused upon. Just because you do not lie does not mean that you are incapable of manipulating others.

How are you all going to sit here and try and poke holes in the Madoka universe? It’s probably the most solid world building in anime.

Why does Kyubey only give girls magical powers? If magical boys existed, what would their witch form be called?

Because I like it but it also makes me sad, and it makes me think about the universe and what could have been done to make things turn out differently.

Okay so he gave her a tool to use and she used it in a way they could never do. That’s as dumbed down as I could possibly make it.

>They didn’t turn a girl into god. Homura did
Again, their tech.

>and yes, Gretchen is that much of a threat.
If Gretchen was a universe destroying problem. Then Kyubey would have had a different reaction than "It's humanities problem now."

Dude, the QBs are fully aware what will happen when Madoka turns into a witch because they know ahead of time how much potential a contractee will have. He spends the entire show telling Madoka how powerful she would be if she became a magical girl.

*In a way he never knew they could use it.

Again, I refuse to believe they are incapable of defeating a witch.

The fact that people are arguing about it means that it isn't as solid as you say it is.

It would be pretty great

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yes

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user, if somebody gave you a gun and you used it to kill somebody then you killed that person. Not the person who gave you that gun. You could learn about that gun and understand that gun better than the person who gave it to you and use it in ways they never could.

>If Gretchen was a universe destroying problem. Then Kyubey would have had a different reaction than "It's humanities problem now."
I’m pretty sure Gretchen is confirmed a universe problem in Rebellion.

Homura was destroying them with guns. How are they going to fight Gretchen?

I want unga cavedoka's bunga.

No, it means people don’t pay attention. There’s a split in the Madoka fanbase and controversy over Rebellion because unironically less than have the people who watch it are capable of understanding it and only a small percentage of that half actually truly understand it.

You guys are getting your Gretchens mixed up. Final timeline Gretchen was potentially a universe-level threat. Timeline 4 Gretchen was referred to as "humanity's problem".

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The only real argument here is mostly just because people don't understand Kyubey. He is neither somebody that actually cares about the universe and the wellbeing of its inhabitants, nor is he simply evil. He's just utterly incomprehensible in the same way most lovecraft deities are completely incomprehensible.

Not him but you're saying that the incubators just gave them the gun and didn't build it? If someone built and gave people guns they could make more or make better ones. A soilder isn't an engineer.

I remember Madoka shot her bow at the original earth and it blew up. Not Gretchen but actual Godess Madoka.

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One of the PSP games had the witch of an alien magical girl.
Also chances are that there were other girls who got time powers, but nobody who was as insanely persistent as Homura was. It's likely that other girls either succeeded at whatever they were trying to do in their first few times or gave up and witched out. Even Homura was a breath away from going witch at the end of Episode 11 because she had finally given up.

>I’m pretty sure Gretchen is confirmed a universe problem in Rebellion.
When?

With magic, duh. Or whatever weird tech they use that creates magic.

She blew up Gretchen, the earth was fine. Probably protected by a pink forcefield or something.

He didn’t build it. It’s energy. Incubators didn’t build energy. All the energy belongs to the magical girls before the turn in the form of karmic destiny. They’re only taking that already existing energy and manifesting it for them and in return they get a huge chunk of it when they die. It’s sort of like the force in Star Wars.

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>The idea only happens in a comedy 4koma.
Just more proof that Kyubey was full of shit. Humanity would have done just fine without the incubators.

>With magic, duh. Or whatever weird tech they use that creates magic.
See

who the hell would still take the wish being told they were just going to turn into the thing they're fighting that kills people? the rate at which he'd be able to contract magical girls would slow to a crawl, it wouldnt be enough to combat heat death. beyond that it's directly stated that the omission wasn't even out of any kind of malice or emotion; magical girls are energy cattle to him, he does not care or even understand how they feel, he just needs to get enough to make up for the entropy deficit.

So it's literally mostly everyone's fault for not understanding what the show is apparently saying instead of it being clear enough for most people to get it?

What if George Lucas directed Madoka

And you think they can't simply manifest that energy in a different way because?

Like, they can turn emotions into fucking energy. They are well past the point they would still be using guns.

Yes. That’s just something the Incubators can do. Like I said though. They can’t use their tech in the way Homura did. The gun thing was just me simplifying it. They probably can’t even comprehend how Homura used her Karmic destiny like that because they don’t understand emotion.

I don't disagree with that. Like I said already, Kyubey is very incompetent. What I disagree with is that they couldn't have taken care of Gretchen.

Anybody who pays attention would get enough of it to like Homura. The best way to tell if somebody just completely doesn’t understand the series and couldn’t comprehend what they were watching is if they have an irrational hate for Homura after watching Rebellion. Not even joking. The garden scene is not very complex but a lot of people miss that alone.

That's a bit of a wide stroke of assumptions.

Ignoring the fact you're a speedwatching 'tard, you're forgetting the whole 'you become a fucking Lich' part

Gretchen just wants to hug the world, why would you want to kill her

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>Magical girls are just liches
I don't know why I never made that connection.

They can’t fight. They’re not fighters. They themselves don’t have massive amounts of Karmic destiny and emotion (they’re devoid of emotion) to transform into energy and fight with. The best they can hope to do is make magical girls to fight Gretchen there’s nobody on earth with enough untapped karmic destiny to take on Gretchen.

Even if they could they don't have any reason to. They're aware of alternate timelines, the energy created from Walpurg surely outweighs losing a couple Earths.

Trust me. Try talking to people who hate Homura but be rational and ask them questions nicely. I’ve done it multiple times and every time they have no clue and the series went over their heads.

Gee I wonder why it didn't do that.

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I'm pretty sure there are people have hated Homura even before Rebellion just based on personality shit and not really what she went through/did.

I’m pretty sure most people hated Homura before episode ten. That doesn’t change my point.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=0brOQ4yK5gs

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>They can’t fight.
Obviously they can fucking fight. Do you think all of their insanely advanced, beyond human comprehension technology is somehow incapable of causing harm to other lifeforms?

Well, obviously. They are lovecraftian eldritch abominations, they don't give a fuck about anything expect themselves.

I mean, he could phrase it better. Telling the truth would cause more selfish people to stop caring, but there would still be plenty left to make sure he meets his quota.

I'm still not convinced. Anyone can hate a character and still get their complexities and importance to the plot in pretty much any series I've seen, not just the kind of hatred based on perceived plot holes.

What would you say about someone who loves Mami so much that she became her waifu?

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They can’t. They don’t have enough energy to take on magical girls or witches. They just manipulate the already existing energy humans have through karmic destiny and emotion.

>Loving a gem possessing a corpse.
Also, you do realize dating magical girls is just going to result in you either dying tragically at the hands of a witch or getting your head torn off if you dump her.

I get the idea that everything seemed so advanced in their world because energy sources would last far longer due to entropy being different, removing the need for wars, strife and such.
To make magical girls disappear after turning to witches, the whole system had to be rewritten, making everything less efficient.

Madoka may have plunged the world into the darkness that we know today.

>They don’t have enough energy to take on magical girls or witches.
What is your evidence for this? Considering what we know they can do, there is nothing to imply they have no energy to deal with something as weak as a witch.

Honestly, the technology in their world always struck me less as advanced as much as just kind of inconsistent. Some of it actually seemed to be worse than what we have.

Which, I guess kind of makes sense when most technological development is based on the wishes of teenage girls.

I didn't totally understand the detailed picture of what was going on until my third watch (granted i was a teen first watching it as it came out and barely retained anything that time through other than cute girls and one becomes god at the end).
One of the main reasons I love this series is that it keeps on giving, even now every rewatch I still feel like I pick up a few more details I never noticed before. It's not a show speedwatchers can really properly appreciate, as it's packed with nuances that require at least basic attention to pick up.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=a6tyJxWCJow
0:25

Imagine if those were all incubators rushing her.

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They don’t have emotion! Do you not understand the laws of the Madoka universe?

I wanted to love Mami just from how she was on a surface-level, but once I saw how insecure and clingy and dependent she really is, it made me feel uneasy. I didn't think I'd like Madoka as much as I do now, but I do. I won't deny that the whole rifle thing and general design of Mami's magical girl form is awesome though, I've always thought that. But for what I'd think of you, either you've been taken in by her facade, or you understand her and are strong enough to comfort for her and survive her heavily leaning on you. I feel bad for you either way, but if that's who you love, so be it.

You get the garden scene right?

I get that. but there is nothing to imply that emotions are the ONLY way to fight witches. Like, Homura uses guns and they seem to work just fine.

>Some of it actually seemed to be worse than what we have.
Well, war and strife do advance technology in certain directions. It would make sense that some derived from that lagged behind while tech generally derived from peaceful applications would grow, especially while aided by better energy sources.

Girls can't love girls

No system can produce more or equal energy to that which it consumes.
Using energy from gained witches to fight witches would get Kyubey nowhere fast.

The Madoka verse does seem to have had plenty of war in the past though. Considering how figures like Cleopatra and Jeanne of Arc still did their thing.

Of course, I have for years now. I did not when I first watched Rebellion in 2014, but even more than the main series I just absorbed a greater amount from it each successive time through

Incubators don’t have guns. They manipulate energy or I guess you can better say activate energy. They themselves don’t have much Karmic destiny to work with themselves and absolutely no emotion. They’re capable of empowering humans and using their energy after they become a witch and die but they can’t do what magical girls do. They couldn’t even fight a witch. They need humans as much and humans need them.

>Incubators don’t have guns.
Your evidence for this is...?

I've been rewatching Rebellion a lot in the past few days, and I appreciate it a lot more now than I did when I first watched it.

That may be true but all the power actually comes from the humans and the Incubators just manifested it or activate it. They both need each other. As crazy as the concept of Incubator technology is to Humans is equally as crazy as emotion/love is to the incubators. They even say it’s too dangerous to mess with in Rebellion.

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No thumbs.

They could just make hte guns float.

Again though, considering everything they can do on their own without magical girls being involved. I don't think inventing a weapon better than what we have in the modern age is beyond their capacity.

I'd like to live in the world from the first 30 minutes of Rebellion.

We don’t know what they can do without magical girls. For all we know technology is foreign to them and they just have their ability to activate energy in other life forms. We haven’t seen them actually use anything crazy besides soul gems and that’s probably just them understanding life and energy and how it works better than humans do. That doesn’t mean the incubators are capable of making iPhones and atomic bombs.

If Kyubey was telling the truth that it would have been impossible for human civilization to develop on its own and they would still be living in caves if not for the intervention of magical girls, how did his own civilization become so advanced in the first place? Hmm....

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if you want it dumbed down, go watch anpanman or something instead

Our society is only advanced because of the Lunarians, obviously.

Maybe the incubators created language so humans could interact and enhanced their lifespans and taught them how to build homes and stuff.

He's special I guess. He's like white people. Nobody else can do it without his civilization but he can do it

I have to agree with you that we technically don't know. But I find it INCREDIBLY unlikely. If they can make space ships or teleporters that allow them to travel to earth, then they can create weapons that could kill a witch.

Also probably taught them fire and electricity and a bunch of science in general.

Turn me into a girl. Free functional Sex Change surgery suckers!

We haven’t seen a space ship or a teleporting machine. The energy they use to do that is probably their own but their own Karmic and emotional output is nothing compared to a humans. The only problem is humans can’t activate it without the knowledge the incubators have. That’s why it’s a good deal for incubators. They activate humans natural potential and give them a wish and for doing that they ask for a portion of the energy which they probably use to make stars so the universe keeps on going.

They got to earth somehow though. That alone means they should, logically, have the tech to build advanced weaponry.

Or they just have the ability to go through wormholes of some kind. They seem to understand the fundamentals of the universe and life better than humans but that doesn’t mean they understand technology and emotion.

He did that in Tart Magica but failed to tell Tart that the reason he wanted her so badly is because she would become a witch so powerful, she would destroy all of Europe.
He will always leave out information, in order to make sure he gets what he want. Pretty sure Tart would have never agreed to his deal had he mentioned that part in the beginning.

>Or they just have the ability to go through wormholes of some kind.
That still requires space ships.

Madoka is super underrated as a character, it's kind of sad that a lot of viewers dismiss her as a generic whiny protagonist who "doesn't do anything."

I think that there's something to be said for the fact that she doesn't fall for Kyubey's bullshit and realizes that she shouldn't just become a magical girl willy-nilly, for one.

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>realizes that she shouldn't just become a magical girl willy-nilly
except she almost did, repeatedly

I read somewhere that the energy contained in a witch was calculated to be able to create enough matter for 50 suns or some shit.

Weapons might be ineffective, unless charged with fee-feesand the armpit nectar of underage girls.

Kyubey says human souls exist in their neurons.

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She was going to consider it for Mami's sake before Mami went and became a meme
She considered using it to get Kyoko and Sayaka to stop fighting (likely to the death), which was admittedly pretty dumb.
She also was about to use it to wish Sayaka back to life, which isn't exactly a thoughtless wish

They have knowledge about how souls and energy and the laws of the universe work. I’m pretty sure they don’t need a spaceship.

I think the Incubator bodies are just puppets and the real bodies are advanced humans on another planet far away. They're somehow controlling the incubator pulled bodies to do their work for them. That’s just my crazy theory though but either way they’re not using conventional technology to travel. They’re using their knowledge about how the universe works and manipulating energy.

>I'm essentially a monkey's paw
That's all he had to say then

The reason Madoka isn't liked much is because this timeline is the one where she didn't do all the things that Homura likes her for. She's supposed to be kind and selfless and brave. But in this timeline she's not allowed to form a contract so she remains helpless and people dislike her. She makes up for it in the end by making that huge wish I guess.

Actually he gave them all their wishes and improved the dumb wishes by giving them extra abilities. Kyubey is the type of person where is somebody was dumb enough to wish for a dollar he’d give them the ability to make as much as they want instead of just a single dollar. He’s really good about wishes.

Not only that but it’s the same month for Madoka over and over and over again and people complain about her lack of character development. She’s literally living the exact same month again and again.

Madoka is still plenty brave and selfless even in the anime timeline. When you think about it, it takes massive balls to actually try to pull the power of friendship stuff she tried to do to Oktavia, even with someone as strong as Kyoko protecting her, especially after she's seen firsthand what witches can do to magical girls let alone regular humans.

An example of this is Sayaka wished to heal her dumb boyfriend so Kyubey knowing that wish was pretty dumb also gave her wolverine healing as a bonus for being simple.

how many times has homura raped madoka
she knows that she will go back in time, so why not get what she wants

Wasn't there some pretty fucked up hentai specifically about this?

Goddess Madoka seen everything so she would have been mad.

This is known because Kyubey said it himself and Kyoko has been around the block fighting wise. She nailed Sayaka with an attack later shown to make the ground pretty much explode and said an attack like that should have put a magical girl down for months. Sayaka recovered in seconds although it wasted a lot of energy.*

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I see you read this doujin too

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imagine popping madoka's cherry again and again

More like how many times has Madoka raped Homura

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Meguca is suffer, Homura did nothing wrong, meduka is beauty, sayaka is stupid.

>Why does Kyubey only give girls magical powers?
only girls are retarded enough to take the deal and turn into witches

Homura wouldn't know she was going to become madokami though. She might have done bad things while assuming she'd never know.

youtube.com/watch?v=TrgxHDoe8gA

Wow, I never thought about it like that.

I want Madoka to make me pregnant. I want her to be very enthusiastic and assertive about it.

More emotion.

If you really think about it, Rebellion is basically an elaborate essay on why Madoka should have raped Homura before she got raped by her.

>do not throw souls!

I love that part even in the original.

I remember one of the abridged versions of the show made a joke about this. Homura claimed she has raped Madoka before and is not afraid to do it again and then reset the time.

I’m a Homura fan!

What's the best MadoHomu doujin?
>the one where Madokami and Akuma Homura do some light femdom with each other
>the one where Homura pretends to be Madoka's pet cat because Madoka went insane with power and killed everything else on Earth
>the one where Madoka and Mami catch Homura masturbating on Madoka's desk and Mami coaches Madoka into sex with Homura
>the smell fetish one

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The one where Madokami “rehabilitates” Homucifer.

Shut the fuck up utilitarian

Oh, there was also the one where Homura comes up with a plan to stop her and Madoka from becoming witches by shoving their soul gems up each other's cunnies

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Remember when posts using the word "cunny" would get tons of replies laughing at it?
I don't know why it's kind of hot now.

It means you're a lolicon now

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Madoka's wish wasn't to destroy the magical girl system, dingus. Her wish constrains her to just dealing with witches. She didn't have the power to change that even if she wanted to.

That said, I think Madoka likes the magical girl system on the ideal that it's girls fighting for others and for what they believe in, as well having their wishes granted.

What's your favorite witch design?

QB contracted Madoka knowing full well this would be the result. Madoka gave him all the energy he needed from Earth, so he discarded it. He doesn't care about Earth or humanity, only his goal. Whether that simply be self preservation or the preservation of the universe, he doesn't care who suffers or dies to make that happen, and he doesn't try to avoid it.

>Why would he lie
He doesn't lie, but he hides and stretches the truth. You cannot take many of his words at face value. He only tells the real truth when it's convenient to him and his manipulation.

In the wish making process, I don't think the incubators do antything other than make the gem and make it possible for the magical girl to make their wish. The energy needed for the wish as well as the manifesting of it is up the the magical girl, I think.

I love Kyoko's witch, the atmosphere of the barrier also sells it.

Emotions make humans inherently unstable and self destructive and primative. Since the Incubators and other cosmic species don't have emotions you can assume that's just a prerequisite to being advanced as a species.

Him suggesting to Madoka and Kyoko that Madoka might be able to de-witchify Sayaka was a bald-faced lie on his part, considering he later called it impossible (even if the megucas did manage to de-witchify Homura in Rebellion)

>and other cosmic species
He never said other species don't have emotions, he said that humans just had a lot of emotion.

the one with madoka in the bathtub

His logic is that humans are dumb mentally ill apes who need the white rat to uplift them. It's like an alien version of the white man's burden.
That said, I personally don't think the incubators actually did anything to uplift humanity. I don't think humanity's major advancements were the direct result of their involvement.

I agree. Madoka is my favorite. People dismiss her as generic, but don't pay attention to the complexity that she's actually given.

>she didn't do all the things that Homura likes her for
bullshit. She was kind, thoughtful, idealistic, and selfless even in this timeline. The only difference is that she's not an action hero this time.

Good catch. I forgot about that moment.

>I don't think humanity's major advancements were the direct result of their involvement.
Tart Magica proves you wrong.

>spinoffs

In the original timeline Walpurgisnacht was the one that destroyed the town. It wasn't until Homura repeated that same week for centuries worth of time all focused on protecting Madoka that she gained the potential that would have destroyed the planet in the most recent timeline. Which is also why QB was so aggressive in pursuing her and why her wish had enough power to change reality.

I really wish that homily game was out in English here. Not trying to brag or anything but I’m pretty sure I’d demolish anybody in this thread.

The universe is full of soulless but intelligent species like Kyubey's, which is why he had to extract emotional energy from humans.
From his perspective, we're all a bunch of emotional spergs, so it's understandable he thinks we couldn't amount to much.

>The universe is full of soulless but intelligent species like Kyubey's
Kyubey never said that Humans were the only ones with emotion, just that they experienced the strongest.

Preventing the heat death of the universe by turning the universe into his own personal energy farm. No other civilization will reap the benefits.

>Lame mobile game you enjoy collabs with Madoka
>You've only seen the anime but literally all of the rewards are spoilers for the fucking movie
>Holy shit this barely makes sense.

So basically from what I gather after Madoka becomes a god at the end of the anime...

>Homura's desire to "save" her overloads and almost turns her into a fucking witch
>This causes a paradox
>Kyubey jumps in and freezes them within the paradox so he can try and take control of Madoka's god powers
>Homura figures this out and forcibly finishes the transformation to fuck him over
>Madoka tries to "save" HER but instead Homura somehow harnesses her witch powers because she's fucking special
>Becomes anti-god and gets what she wants in the end, thus "saving" Madoka and the others
>But now she's fucking insane

Am I on the right track here?

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>literally arguing for the anti-spirals

Turn me into a witch. I want to fight magical girls instead.

Sort of, your main misunderstanding is that Homura's wish didn't cause a paradox in the beginning. She was going to despair (and then be taken by Madoka) by normal means, but Kyubey interferes by trapping her soul gem in a pocket universe before that can happen. That's why Homura's witch transformation is incomplete.

>max energy comes from max suffering / despair
>why didn't this alien hamster sabotage his own energy gathering plan so them cattle don't feel betrayed and suffer less(giving him less energy in return)?
What a stupid thread.

Right, my understanding is that because her "despair" was brought about by her deep love for Madoka (specifically her desire to not have Madoka be the one to shoulder the burdens of the magical girls) that her witch transformation was somehow different. Like it was despair but also love so she was able to bullshit her way into harnessing it because she's that much of a lesbian.

I mean in the way I guess her selfishness does bring about a better outcome than what Madoka planned since it fucks Kyubey royally but all she really did was take take Madoka's place as "god".

Not too far off
>Because of Madoka's wish, witches dont exist in the current timeline
>Homura, stupidly, tells QB about the old timeline
>as an experiment QB when Homura is at the end of her life they put her gem into a pocket dimension as an experiment to create a witch
>She only half becomes a witch, somehow
>it creates this weird town and Homura and the other magical girls, including Madoka, live in this town with altered memories
>QB goads Homura into completing her witch transformation but are attacked by Homura's witch's familiars
>this breaks the dimension that they are trapped in freeing all the girls and restoring Madoka's memories/power
>Just as Madoka is about to take Homura, Homura steals Madoka's power and becomes the devil Homura because unlike normal magical girls dying, she was not falling because of despair but because of love
>she recreates reality to give Madoka a normal school life "saving" Madoka
>she torments the QB and forces them to stay on earth to keep doing the work to prevent the end of the universe or something

>He wanted them to feel the most despair and suffering possible
"You'll never get a job. Also your girlfriend is cheating on you. What do you mean you don't have one."

They probably just got a head start. QB never said humans would never develop a civilization on their own, just that as of the current date it wouldn't have happened yet.

Ain't his fault bitches can't read the fine print.

Ballerina Madoka

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one of the best pleb filters

i enjoy see you sufer meguca.
plese more sufer

So QB fucks everything up again and creates another god except this one is crazy instead of caring and benevolent, got it.

Basically Homura took the place of her love as the savior of magical girls and got what she wanted in the end plus sweet devil powers...win win.

QB tries to go back to the old system and it was all secretly part of Homura's plot so she can become a god instead and "save" Meduka

Yeah it makes sense.

The entire series is extra fucked up but I have to admire Homura for going to such insane lengths to follow through...even if her plan required a million stars to line up.

Homura technically never fully transforms into a witch in the "real" world, because Kyubey's pocket dimension prevents her soul gem from shattering and turning into a grief seed. Kyubey likens her to an unborn witch embryo, trapped inside her soul gem.

Her devil transformation at the end of the movie is a special case, however. Her soul gem turns into a dark orb powered by love, not hope or despair. Though you have to remember that this isn't the first time Homura has gotten away with bullshit. Logically, she shouldn't have been able to witness Madoka altering the universe and keep all of her memories, so her being special is just a continued trend.

I'm going to clarify a couple of small things if you don't mind

>She only half becomes a witch, somehow
Kyubey describes her situation as a chicken who grew up in its egg. She never manifested as a witch in the real world because the isolation barrier was perventing that.

>this breaks the dimension that they are trapped in freeing all the girls and restoring Madoka's memories/power
Madoka manages to un-witchify Homura, and then Madoka breaks the isolation barrier that has everyone trapped inside Homura's soul gem. Since Homura was unwitched, everyone is also released from her witch barrier.

Madoka played 4d chess against Kyubey to get Homura away from his clutches. Since she couldn't do her job normally, she intentionally let the barrier rewrite her memories so Kyubey wouldn't have conclusive evidence that she's the LoC. Sayaka and Nagisa were brought along with memories intact, and were in charge of restoring Madoka's memories once they broke Homura out. Part of their plan was to let Homura have her "happy dream" for as long as she wanted.

>Homura steals Madoka's power
Homura just splits Madoka from the Law of Cycles (metaphorically described as splitting god in half). Madoka is now a normal girl again, and the LoC is working without her to save megucas from being witches. Her devil powers come from AI YO, which is what corrupted her gem instead of despair.

>this one is crazy instead of caring and benevolent
She's caring and benevolent to everyone, actually. She gives everyone a happy ending except herself. However, she feels guilty for doing this against their wills.
She calls herself evil and the devil not only is she already depressed and self-loathing, but because she feels she has forsaken Madoka's morally righteous sacrifice by taking her away from it. Despite having good intentions giving everyone happy endings, she thinks she's the bad guy and that Madoka will hate her for what she did.

>it was all part of her plan
Don't listen to this guy. He's memeing. Please go watch Rebellion for yourself. It's really good.

Wait it wasn't, I could have swore that she mentioned that was the reason she mentioned the old cycle to QB. She knew that they wouldn't be able to pass up such an efficient energy method so they were bound to try and force her to turn into a witch where she would use the powerup to take Madoka's power and give her a normal life.

>she mentioned that was the reason she mentioned the old cycle to QB
She never said such a thing. I believe it's time for a rewatch, user.

>She gives everyone a happy ending except herself

I would think this outcome is the perfect happy ending for her though...

Yeah I really should, I'll get on that tomorrow.

She has every right and opportunity to get a happy ending, but she won't let herself because she doesn't think she deserves it.

She already got what she wanted from what I gather though. Magical girls are gone, her love gets to live a normal life, and she's in the perfect position to make damn sure those things stay that way. What else could she possibly want? If anything her "not letting herself" is just a twisted way to justify what she's doing (not that it's wrong in the end I guess...even if people hate her for it).

She becomes a stranger to Madoka and deliberately keeps it that way.

It's either Homura has 150+ IQ and planned the whole thing or she has -1000 IQ and just assumed there was nothing wrong with telling QB about the old system.

Her self-loathing goes pretty deep, and she doesn't think she deserves Madoka's frienship after violating her sacrifice as well as a moral principle she holds.
>Magical girls are gone
they're not
Homura is not very smart, user. She was extremely lonely, and likely thought Kyubey could do nothing to change things.

>using the power of feelings to stop fucking entropy
I have no idea how people take this show seriously, one of the most retarded twists in an anime.

>uncheck that doubt
It's a X button you fucking retard

Except she intentionally tries to alienate herself from Madoka, because she feels like what she's done is unforgiveable and that she doesn't deserve Madoka's love.

I like that emotions=magic.

you have unlimited wishes but their power is divided by a/infinity where a is a real number, so you have infinite wishes but they don't work

Even if they do use puppets. They still need to find a way to get those puppets to Earth. If it's not spaceships, then it's teleporters.

>She didn't have the power to change that even if she wanted to.
Didn't she remake the universe? I doubt wiping Kyubey's species of the face of the universe would have been beyond her.

>Tart Magica proves you wrong.
How exactly?

She remade the universe as according to her wish. Had her wish been "I want to remake the universe in my image," then that would allow her to do it.
Now that I think about it, though, she probably had a lot of leeway to do it how she wanted. Rewriting the laws of the universe was part of her wish.

>ywn live in a 2D universe with WIDE character designs
just fuck my shit up

b-but muh subversion

Of course Homu couldn't really prioritize that because of her 'protect meduka over anything else' mindset, but wouldn't the best plan to ensure the result of alive, unmeguca'd Madoka be try to get the highest number of magical girls to cooperate in the final fight against Waluigi? Was she really above the combined power of Homura, Mami, Sayaka and Kyouko plus say a couple of other ones she could find and convince to come to Mitakihara?

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is anyone hype about the mobile game coming soon?

Hasn't it been out for a while already? Or are they finally bringing it over to the west?

Is it true there will be a new anime?

its finally getting a worldwide release on the 25th

a spinoff yeah

I despise gacha despite having wasted a bunch of time on it and will probably download this one too, if only because I like madoka and playing a game where I'm not a latelet for once seems nice.

Kant was an autist with no conception of how humans function. He was brilliant, sure, but his morality suffered the most simple yet ruthless flaw. Human nature.

>all of this drama could have been avoided
but that's not in his best interest
drama is emotion is magic is energy to fight entropy

Why do so many people fail to understand Madoka?

it's high IQ

>still want more Madoka threads
I don't get you guys.

Where are tripfriends? I want to eat an Apple.

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Because people are hung up on their own morality and instead fail to see the show for what it presented. So they make QB into some evil being with evil motives while turning Madoka into some godlike being with godlike motives. The fact of the matter is Madoka was a little girl with a greedy wish and QB was a dull robotic character that simply maximizes energy production.

Would you watch a show about a girl refusing Kyubei's offer, then go on to solve her problems herself while constantly being tempted a la Faust?

Is it playable on pc browsers like GBF or is it mobile only?

Why have you guys watched anime despite the fact you underestimate Japanese people at the bottom of your heart ? You have no life.

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At least I didn’t underestimate Kyoko.

>tfw no hi rez witch cards of gretchen and walpurgis to print and hang on the wall

I want a dank meguca-related painting to hang, any suggestion?

Lovecraftian alien with a deceptive appearence tricks human girls into becoming energy sources for his race because emotions are magic.

Creation of a Bodhisattva in the form of a little girl.

Emotions are more of an energy source than magic.

Kyubey gave mandkind knowledge though

He assumes that humans are the only life forms besides incubators in the entire Madoka universe.

Wouldn’t he know if they are or aren’t not though?

I underestimated her ability to eat half her body weight in food in a single sitting.

Do not talk about my wife's eating habits like that you weirdo. She can kick you ass six ways from Sunday.

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and just like white people they are a cancer to the universe

Legend has it that Kyouko once broke into a moderately sized supermarket and when she left the next morning every single shelf was completely empty.

youtube.com/watch?v=d-FcS0EEnYY

Lol, user. Way to miss the point.

QB used spiral power to continue the universe and let it flourish.
What QB does is EXACTLY what Simon does at the end of Gurren Lagann.
QB is Simon.

Madoka is the anti-spiral. She decides to sacrifice herself and become an abstract concept (EXACTLY like the anti-spiral), in order to systematically cull Magical Girls in order to prevent their despair (EXACTLY like the anti-spiral)

Rewatch the end of Gurren Lagann where Nina Disappears.
The people tell Simon to bring her back with Spiral Power - but he refuses, as that is against the laws of nature.
THAT WAS AI YO.
Simon didn't AI YO, because he is a utilitarian like QB.
Homura was LITERALLY the Spiral Nemesis.

Madoka's message is the exact antithesis to Gurren Lagann.

That's racist

Not even Hitler underestimated Japanese people.
Japanese people charged with Katanas into US machine gun fire during WW2.
If anything I think that they are insane, but I would never underestimate someone like that.

nigger

There is absolutely no way QB cared about the Universe. Indeed he does not even say that he does, instead only speaking in the terms of his race's goals. But more importantly, this goal is absolutely incompatible with him getting anywhere near Madoka after the initial karma potential scan. Not only because of the great danger posed to him, Incubators and the rest of the Universe by a virtually unlimited wish at the hands of an emotional teen, but because he obviously had to know and indeed did know that Madowitch would be an universal destroyer. The risks are so great in scale, that even if the possibility of something going wrong is astronomically small, it still would be far too great for representative of a race thinking billions of years ahead.

The only possible remaining interpretations of the main timeline QB's motives is either him intentionally trying to destroy the world or manipulating Madoka towards the exact ending she chose.

>Homura's TF is Anti-Black
>Not Anti-Angel
WTF PONOS

>She's caring and benevolent to everyone, actually.

t.YHVH (SMT version)

>She gives everyone a happy ending except herself.

Or is it Friend Computer there?

Nice. I hope I have enough space on my mobile phone. If nothing else, I want to give it a shot.

Asking about QBs motives is retarded in the first place.
He is a chaotic force of nature, you will never possibly understand what he knows.
But what he does is indeed in the interest of the universe, we are just too little to comprehend it.
Remember: QB was able to observe the multiverse and that Homura traveled to different dimensions. For all we know, the universe might be running out of energy much faster then we think.

Perhaps all stars in the sky were created by megucas, and the universe was running cold before that.
Remember, QB has been running his operation for a long time at this point.

Homura should've known she was the only link to the old world and should've killed herself to prevent this, I'm retarded and even I could self deduce what would happen telling kyubey something of that magnitude

>QB QB QB QB
Is it 2011 again? It's Kyubey.

Newfag.

Newfag.

aren't you tired of shitposting Akemi!

Homura did nothing wrong

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I don't know how to imitate that Schizoid's writing style and I don't want to get banned in any case so I'll just say that Homura was correct but she was not right.

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Granting girls' wishes that lead to accelerating the societal development of humanity is not giving knowledge.

kek, don't mention him lest you summon him inadvertently, I've been enjoying the madoka threads while he's been banned

>but literally all of the rewards are spoilers for the fucking movie
The collab is for the movie after all, it's to be expected.

>tfw got all the Madoka collab units
I hope they can figure out tracking quickly in 8.6.

>He is a chaotic force of nature
No, he's just an alien. An effectively immortal alien, but still a mere organism.
>what he does is indeed in the interest of the universe
The universe does not have any interest.
>QB was able to observe the multiverse and that Homura traveled to different dimensions
He didn't, that's why he had to infer that Homura was a time traveler after piecing evidence together.
>Perhaps all stars in the sky were created by megucas
Nonsense, stars are immensely wasteful energy stores, if Kyubey had that much energy he'd use a much more efficient method for hoarding it.

Perhaps QB is storing it in Dark Energy.
>The universe does not have any interest.
Honestly, user, the way you are talking is like an arrogant materialist who has just read Nietzsche
You don't even know how much we don't know about the Universe.
There is so much room for possibilities.

Like, QB is capable of literally creating witches and harnessing emotions for energy.
On what grounds do you even infer that he is materialist? Perhaps, his race is psionically ascendent, like the Alterans from Stargate.
We simply do not know.

>The universe does not have any interest.
Says you. But how do you know QB hasn't found the one universal truth behind everything that answers all questions. Perhaps the universe DOES have a will. Who knows?

My point is, we know so little about it all, that arguing on the level of human morals and motivations about him is pitifully misguided.

His race are a bunch of lying shitters did you even watch the show

correct but not right
huh what does that remind me

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when you min charisma but max luck in DnD

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Is this game really bad? I heard it was released once before, but I never played it.

He didn't though

I wish it was 2011 again.

He LITERALLY says so.
Meduka: "What if you never came to this planet, though?"
Qyuby: "You would still be living in caves, Meduka!"
*Meduka wishes for Qyuby never come to make all Meguka*
*Meduka lives in cave*
*Stone age Hameru makes with Meguka Buga Uga!*
Bad End.

This

He says it's possible. Just like how I would argue it's possible that he's full of shit.

Nothing there implies he straight up gave humanity knowledge.

Also, how do you know he's not stretching the truth, leaving out important details, or straight up lying? He's known to do that in order to manipulate his victims. There is no proof behind his words here.

>lol but why would he lie or stretch the truth?
To manipulate Madoka into contracting with him, like usual. It's like a classic abuse tactic. "You need me. You'd be nothing without me. So help me and be abused some more!"

Take Kyubey's words with a grain of salt.

It's a rule of drama.
A character who is said to never lie will never lie.
QB never ever gave misinformation, because he just does not do that.
Any theory that involves QB lying is technically plausible, but its literally on the same level of "What if it all actually secretly happens in the world of Matrix and it's the 7th iteration of the Matrix" or whatever.
Sure, it's possible. But it's not what the author intended, obviously.

QB just does not lie. Get over it.

>QB never ever gave misinformation
He told Kyouko that it might be possible to turn Sayaka back from a witch. He twists his words to get the other person to think and do what he wants. It may not be straight up lying, but it is still deception.

I never said Kyubey lied. He claimed it was likely humans would still be living in caves. It was a opinion, not a fact.

He said that it's never been done before and that if it is possible, he doesn't know how to do it.

Well, Madoka could have just wished for it and it would have happened.
Also, unironically, they ended up turning Sayaka back from being a dead(!) witch.
QB himself just does not know how far the power of Megucas stretches.

Still supports my point.

In this case, an opinion is the same thing as a fact.

There is no evidence for that.

No, it's not. It would have been a lie if it was. But it isn't, because it's his opinion.

Basically this. It's actually the most logical path for Kyubey to take, because it gets the girls' hopes up first only for them to feel shock, horror, and of course despair. Kyubey is omitting the ugly details on purpose.

It's twelve episodes you impatient fuckwad.

Look, you can doubt him. But it's just a stupid thing to do in this case.

If QB says that it is likely, then he is using likely, as is "estimated probability".
It's not just "an opinion", it's the most likely outcome of that situation.

And that is the state of their world.

Except Kyubey admitted he tricked Kyouko. He's a manipulator who twists the truth to get people to do what he wants, and then calls them stupid for falling for it.

Attached: kyubey_is_a_deceptive_asshole.jpg (1218x434, 191K)

Well, but again, Homura brought Sayaka back when she pulled Madoka from heaven with AI Yo.

That doesn't matter. The fact is that he THOUGHT it was actually impossible. Kyubey is fallible. He manipulated Kyouko into doing what he thought was impossible so she would die.

He purposefully led her on, but he didn't tell an outright lie when he said he couldn't be 100% sure that a witch's soul couldn't be saved. That's the point, isn't it? He deceived her because he was sure that, at the end of the day, miracles don't happen and wishes always ultimately bring suffering to the world. Except at the end he's proven wrong and miracles do in fact happen, and what Sayaka and Madoka couldn't accomplish, Madokami does.

Except Madokami doesn't.
Only AI Yo Akuma Homura does make hopes and dreams come true, as the ultimate magical girl of LOVE and COURAGE. Ironically.

I'm probably retarded, but if Kyubey and his race don't feel any emotions, then why would they care about the heat death of the universe?

Being dead is bad?

>Except at the end he's proven wrong
Doesn't matter. This has nothing to do with the argument that he's a deciever who twists his words in a way that misleads the victim while still leaving the door open for deniability. He never explicitly said it was possible, but he intentionally implied to her that it was knowing that she'd pursue it fruitlessly.

>I've never seen a witch turn back into a magical girl because nobody has done it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if you do since you megucas do crazy shit. I can't give you advice on this.
>HAHA FUCKING IDIOT SHE SHOULD'VE KNOWN IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE! ALL ACCORDING TO KEIKAKU! NOW MADOKA MUST CONTRACT TO BEAT WALNUT!

Instinctual self-preservation, I would assume. Kyubey doesn't really care about other species or the universe, just the death of himself and his species.

aet
no it doesn't

see

>who the hell would still take the wish being told they were just going to turn into the thing they're fighting that kills people?
Myself. I'm also a lich who can live forever as long as I can sustain myself.
Wish is a nice, but not necessary bonus.

Let me restate: "Sayaka tries to save a witch believing she could redeem her, and she fails. Madokami tries to save all witches, believing she could redeem them, and succeeds at it." How is any part of this wrong?

Of course it doesn't matter to his intent, but it provides additional insight to note that the series ends in his point being proven wrong because that statistically next to null possibility becomes true.

le maymay wish granting device
if madoka wills it sayaka lives
and since she became 5D something like resurrection is so trivial for her hence we get to see sayaka

It doesn't matter if that null possibility becomes true, what matters is that he didn't think it was actually possible at all while he was saying those words.
I'll say this again: Kyubey manipulated Kyouko by twisting his words to make her do what he knew was impossible for his own benefit. He is a manipulator and a deciever; much of what he says must be taken with a grain of salt.

But then he tells Homura that he believed that it was impossible to turn a witch back into a magical girl, and that he misled Kyoko and Sayaka to get Kyoko out of the picture so that Homura would be forced to fight Walpurgis alone. That's beyond a lie of omission, that's just an outright falsehood.

Madokami just takes them away, she does not unwitch them.
Only AI YO was extreme enough for that

She tried that in previous timelines, but the problem is
>Mami is a literal emotional time bomb whose reaction to learning the truth about witches is to jump straight into murder-suicide
>Sayaka will always drown in her ideals, she becomes a witch in every single timeline she contracts in
>Homura eventually realizes that she has to cut her losses with those two and only focus on Madoka alone, this makes her look cold and uncooperative so Mami and Sayaka instinctively distrust her which directly leads to Mami's death when Mami refuses to listen to Homura's warning about Charlotte

Kyoko is the only other meguca who seems to consistently get along with Homura, hence their agreement to team up against Walpurgis before Kyoko died, and honestly they probably had a pretty good chance of winning that fight considering Kyoko is only a bit below Mami strengthwise.

everyone knows he a troll

Regarding bringing in megucas from other cities, the way the grief seed system works means that magical girls are generally in conflict over territory, as seen with Kyoko moving in to claim Mami's turf after she died. Mami could afford to be friendly because she was incredibly powerful and had magic to spare, other megucas may not be willing to risk their lives against a raid boss when the rewards wouldn't even be instanced.

The mobage setting is an exception and a special case where because the witches are much more powerful than normal megucas are incentivized to team up and form large political networks.

my only gripe with the story is that Incubators don't seem to exploit the time rewind skill that they gave to Homura, when there's no reason not to

Isn't Walpurgisnacht basically unbeatable though?

I mean, she might have been able to find other magical girls with enough idealism to assist her. But, well, considering the kind of person Homura became. I doubt she would have liked those people all that much, if she even believed they existed.

You know, the fact that magical girls often fight over territory is kind of messed up once you realize that the girls that lose such conflicts are pretty much doomed to become witches. Bunnycat is a jerk.

Homura beats it with bare-fisted martial arts in one of the Tamura timelines.

Isn't that a slice of life comedy though?

The incubators other than the one from the original timeline don't know the true nature of Homura's power because to regular observers it only looks like flash steps and spontaneous explosions.
Even in the anime timeline it takes QB quite some time to figure out that Homura is a time traveler.

No, even in the very first timeline it's shown that Mami and a non NG+ Madoka were able to defeat it, albeit at the cost of their lives. My personal theory is that Walpurgisnacht is extremely resistant to physical attacks, which is really all that Homura has since her actual offensive magical capability is very weak, and you need magical attacks to defeat it.

In the last chapter Madokami shows up and tells all of the multiverse Homuras she's was saved, so it's technically canon.

No. And after Rebellion and the spin offs she isn't in the top 3 of strongest witches, that goes to Gretchen, Homulily, and Tart's witch form.

>No, even in the very first timeline it's shown that Mami and a non NG+ Madoka were able to defeat it,
Did she actually manage to beat it in the first timeline? I don't remember it ever being said, and the sky still looked pretty fucked up in that flashback.

read wraith arc
they get a memory reset but he keeps it because of homura fucking everything up in the original anime ending by mentioning a previous timeline and him proving it by snipping a piece from her shield giving him pseudo a-causality

Yes so it doesn't really count.
I believe one of the PSP games has a route where Homura finally manages to solo Walpurgis even though she's mortally wounded in the process, and dies content knowing that she had finally managed to protect Madoka.

Funnily enough there's another route where Homura manages to become friends with everyone and basically create the Holy Quintet, but everyone spends so much time being friends and having fun that they get wiped by Walpurgis because they didn't level grind enough.

>read wraith arc
don't

Well, if I remember correctly, isn't Walpurgis the final boss of that game? If so, then I don't really think that counts. It's like Iggy being able to beat Dio in the JoJo fighting game.

no I mean they could just develop time travel for themselves and use it to make giga witches

She was beaten in every timeline Madoka was allowed to fight her. Sometimes Madoka had help, sometimes not.

It wasn't said, but it was implied (or at the very least left up to interpretation) that Madoka beat walpurgis at the expense of her life.

The Battle Cats? It's alright. Like one of those old 2d tower def flash games, but with a gacha.

I guess. I always KIND of took it to mean she beat him. But I'll freely admit I have no basis for that idea expect that I like it.

There's no basis that she didn't beat walpurgis, either. There's arguments for both. and goodness there were arguments

Let me clarify what i meant because I realize i sounded retarded
>there's no basis for either
>but there's arguments for either
I meant that there's no conclusive evidence for either, mostly just rational arguments.

The main villain of the series is the floating carnival. But everyone hates on QB instead. What gives?
Even Homura only tried to defeat the carnival instead of trying to beat QB

He's kind of a dick.

Attached: qb amused.jpg (500x394, 27K)

she can enhance other shit and put magic in shit
she can also self heal so long SG isn't tainted
no idea why she didn't ninja a nuke

to be fair they dropped the ball with the alien stuff, like why the fuck no we saw any another ayy aside QBs either in the series and rebellion?

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I´ll go with the warhammer explanation and that would make things even worse

Finding out afterwards can cause despair, accelerating the transformation into a witch, which has the highest energy producing effect. He's doing this on purpose.

I get what you mean. Like I said, i'm pretty neutral on the whole thing. I could make a argument for both if I really tried.

Yeah. Like, imagine finding out that every magical girl you managed to beat into a fight became a witch afterwards. Or that you've basically been collecting the souls of dead children. Or that Kyubey is actually a lovecraftian horror from beyond the stars.

That shit is a despair gold mine.

he converts it into energy
but it is ultimately unnecessary

Big E killed them all

sup bro

I'm not your bro, demon witch

you are what i say you are

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I find it hard to see Walpurgis as the main antagonist when the main conflict was Madoka's internal conflict.

And you sound like a creationist by making assertions from ignorance.

Nice argument fedoralord

Homura*
ftfy

Shut up, Homura. You had Rebellion. The anime is Madoka's.

dance teacher is unironically what i thought madoka, my wife, should become when she grows up the other day.

a-10?

portable homulily

Try watching the show next time

i wish a day without ayys

I want to feed Kyouko an entire cheesecake then secretly take pictures of her pudgy belly and post them on social media without her permission.

Cease your bullshit. She's likely the most fit of the group.

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Which meguca would have the pudgiest belly, if not the one who single-handedly consumes 1/4 of Japan's entire daily food production?

Mami is known for her many cakes and her figure must imply she has the most "pudge" on her you sicko. I bet you have some fetish for this.

Why didn’t Kyoko just rape Sayaka?

She's a good Christian girl.

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So far only the JP server is playable on PC. I suspect that since the SC is to be run on bilibili the SC server is also playable on PC browser.

Because Sayaka is for Nanaka.

>and no one feels tricked at the end.
That's literally not how this works.

Magical Girl of the Day: Kanagi Izumi
-Boss of the East. Protects the Eastern side of Kamihama and considered to the Top Magical Girl of the Eastern side
-Born in Daito, her father got injured at a workplace so she started working as a Maid at a maid cafe.
-Secretly tested Iroha's character by refusing to fight a witch
-Made a wish to find out why people in Kamihama hated the east side
-Wants to see Kamihama destroyed so everyone, rich and poor, has to work together to rebuild it as she thinks this is the only way to end class divisions
-She got better
-Her doppel description is a reference to "The Cat Office", a short story by famous Japanese author Kenji Miyazawa.
-Tsukasa used to be on her team
-Not pleased at all the Daito Girls who joined Magius. Called Tsukasa pathetic for falling for Magius propaganda
-Her innate power is mind-reading

Attached: KanagiIzumi.png (774x1000, 628K)

Homura is too much of a pussy to initiate that kind of contact with Madoka. Maybe she'll work up the courage to rape Madoka now that she's the devil.

I prefer these dykes
>Left: Rika Ayano
-A gal-type magical girl who loves fashion and makeup, also an out lesbian
-She's part of Emiri's "Trouble Consultation Office" along with Hinano
-Her wish was for her childhood friend to fall in love with her
-However, she felt guilty about breaking up her girlfriend's great relationship and coercing her friend with magic, and so she broke up with her girlfriend and set her back up with her old relationship.
-Her weapon in battle is a magical makeup compact that can fire lasers

Right: Ren Isuzu
-A soft-spoken girl who has a lot of trouble talking to others
-A long period of bullying led her to attempt suicide; however, when she jumped off her school's roof she realized she wanted to live, and made a wish to Kyubey
-She learned that her bullying was due to the influence of Witches and thus resolved to end people's suffering by killing Witches, but no matter how much she fought, people still continue to hurt and be hurt by others
-Therefore she decided to commit suicide once again, but was stopped by Rika
-Rika introduced Ren to her friends and opened up to her about her own wish and the sadness it brought. Eventually, Rika was able to convince Ren to live again
-Ever since, Ren has been utterly devoted to Rika, which even extends to gameplay; her personal Memoria gives her a chance to take lethal damage for an ally, but it will cause her to take all damage for Rika if she is in the party
Her weapon is a staff that can transform into a scythe
-Her Doppel, Renata, has the power to control minds with electric waves; however, Ren is afraid of this power and only directs it toward Witches.

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all trash

>I wish I won't become a witch!
And then the system breaks.

Doppels are cool even if they are dumb
youtube.com/watch?v=fFgQev6C4BQ
youtube.com/watch?v=WQh4QpI3ZLU
youtube.com/watch?v=KRaMjrHBo1I

don't care about doppels
the characters are dumb and i don't like them

that's nice

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What the fuck is a doppel?

In the setting of the mobage, megucas can basically summon their Witch form as a stand. They look slightly different from actual Witch forms.

Basically the producers probably thought the scene in Rebellion where Sayaka summons Oktavia was cool as fuck (it was) and made it a gameplay mechanic for 5* megucas.

Attached: nagisa doppel.jpg (675x900, 98K)

That's fucking stupid and it kind of feels like it ruins things a bit, but it's also really really cool.

Also, why are they allowed to do this now?

One interesting but useless tidbit is that while Witches are described with "the Witch of X. It has a Y nature", the corresponding Doppel is described with "the Doppel of Y. It's form is X"

Also some Doppels are independent of the user's body, while some others actually fuse with the user's body which doesn't look pretty. One of the main characters, Yachiyo, is a college student and thus has less volatile emotions, and so her Doppel can't manifest outside her body
youtube.com/watch?v=x1EwRrYbtRY
It's thanks to fuckery from one of the story's villains

They are can wish about being billionaires. No matter how fucked up are consequences you are still a billionaire, right?

Better be unga bunga than destroyer of your own world planet.

Comparing to Madoka universe. It isn't that bad.

I'll take the deal if he could turn me into a cute loli. There is no way I'd feel despair whenI have a tight cunny.

Always choose money or superpowers that can deny money.

>I wish for a billion dollars
>Get it
>Start buying small shit
>Have to explain to your parents how you obtained a fucking billion dollara
>End up buying houses in pure fucking cash
>Japanese government knows shit isn't right
>You and your parents get arrested
>Witch out
A much safer bet would be winning the lottery

Why not buy the japanese government, unlimited source of money by the wish?

With unlimited money wish, you can buy army politics policy and govt justice system. No way someone with money can lose in matter where are everything are buying and selling.

If you wished for unlimited money you are the japanese government.

I don't think you can buy a country even with unlimited money. Sure you can bribe all the politician's but that's incredibly time consuming. Though this has me thinking if you make any money related wish it'll have to be one of the following
>Money comes from existent places
Knowing Kyubey he'd take it indiscriminately so you'd probably end up sending an incredible amount of people into poverty.
>Money is created
Inflation starts and you're single handedly responsible for destroying the economy of Japan. Even if your billions of dollars don't hurt inflation I don't think it'd be recognized as legal tender or it'll fuck up the actual minting and money creation process.

>wish for a billion dollars
>you get a billion venezuelan bolivar

>I don't think you can buy a country even with unlimited money.
Tell that to jews bankers and queen Elizabeth.

>Knowing Kyubey he'd take it indiscriminately so you'd probably end up sending an incredible amount of people into poverty.
I am money god now what poverty? Just sharing everything.

>Money is created
Money is just numbers, nothing more. Howere human working power relly on that numbers. Thats why money a thing.

Besides Jpanese goverment already got cought by some super rich dudes.

>Money wish is bad
lol not so much to be honest.

>I consider Kyubey to be the epitome of True Neutral.
Please, he's Lawful Evil at *best*.

There is no goodness in anything that he does.
He's an alien, whose species is part of some intergalactic community (supposedly), and he's farming energy off of little girls by feeding off their emotions. And he feeds us some bullshit line about the Heat Death of the Universe.

He is most likely the alien equivalent of a megacorp committing atrocities in third-world planets to run factories at dirt cheap costs. He's probably just doing this to sell batteries to power-hungry alien neighbours desperate for energy. He's been doing this for thousands and thousands of years. He's probably rich as fuck. And given how little fucks he gives about Earth's destruction, this is probably not the first time he's destroyed a planet+species, and also not the only planet+species he's been doing this on.

Every action he makes is a selfish one.
If it's not for his energy business, it's for his own curiosity (which leads back to his energy business).

>Like, Kyubey is a massive fuck up. He turned a teenage girl into god by accident, TWICE.
It wasn't an accident. He really, really, really, really fucking wanted Madoka because of how potent she was. The prospect of his equivalent of farming magical nukes that make what he's done for the past thousands of years a trivial speck had him salivating like mad. People keep saying QB is a purely rational, lawful being. He is the goddamn opposite. He is a selfish being driven by ego and greed. Just because his actions are calculated doesn't mean he's rational. It just means he has different priorities that he puts too much effort and thought into.

If he could cage farm humans en masse on a closer planet, he'd do that in a heartbeat but humans born in captivity would only wish for the cage farm to be destroyed, which is counter-productive, and humans born in a cage would have no real future potential or whatever it is that gives them power.

you're big dumb and a speedwatcher. All energy involved in the process comes from the girls, the incubators just kind of catalyze its conversion into useful things like wishes and magic. Madoka is only god tier because of Homura's time looping. Homura is only god tier because of looping and AI YO

youtube.com/watch?v=CT2XR-078tY
Fuck Thanos.

Instead of more garbage spinoffs can we get one that's just a cute meguca love story

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Ok, why not just wish for removing idea of money? Would it be cool?

this man gets it

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The obsession with hating Kyubey makes everything else seem irrelevant. Besides, you can just as easily say he intentionally led Madoka down a path to become goddess. So actually he's trying to save them.

Yeah I really don't get why people suck godoka's dick so much. Like cool you don't die and then turn into a monster, ya just die. There's still tens of thousands of young girls suffering, being child soldiers, and then dying.
Is it better? Of course. Is it a good situation (morally)? Not on your fucking life.

Yes and?
You felt for his almost-but-not-completely-lies again you dunce.
Just because his presence accelerated mankind's development doesn't mean it would just stop without him.
It would take longer, maybe much longer but it would happen.
On the universe life timescale the difference would be likely negligible.

Loli Magic.

They are great.

Sayaka did it in the movie too.

I think it's a Homufag thing. The more you make QB look evil, the better Homura looks.

"There are people who have it worse than you" is just a shitty argument to bring anywhere for any reason.

The Witches are capable of killing people en masse and also generate new Witches from their familiars even if all the magical girls are dead or converted and QB quit on the spot. Madoka just did what she thought was the best she could do. She doesn't solve all problems, just the ones she can. Doesn't make her less benevolent and/or more shitty.

Somebody else's suffering does not invalidate your own just because it's greater.

>ya just die
Somebody was watching at 2x speed while not paying attention.

I have so much nostalgia for this anime

Why can't we have one that is both?

We have a Meguca for that.

Tsuruno Yui wished to win a lottery of 8 billion yen (convert this back to USD) so she could save her shitty family restaurant.

Her mom then took all that money for a vacation.

Her power is luck which supposedly means she would be very good at gacha games but she also gets bad luck like that one time she ate laxatives.

-Illustrated by Koushi Sasagi, one of the main illustrators for the game
-Voiced by Sayaka Senbongi

user, thinking that way only ruins the story for yourself because you completely undermine two of the aspects that make QB so terrifying with it.
But ok, you do you.

>Actually, Kyubei's species was doing this since the cavemans, and Homura was the first and only girl who did what she did.
How do you know other girls didn't try and fail?

The reason why it is plausible that Homura was the first is that it is ridiculously unlikely that someone would do it:

1) she needed to get herself stuck in a time-loop
2) the time loop generated karma needed a catalysator (Madoka)
3) she needed to have the will to repeat again and again
4) she needed to survive 100 loops in a row

good luck with that happening twice.

1 and 2 are even more unlikely because her wish explicitly related to Madoka allowing her to create a timeloop. I bet plenty of megucas asked for the ability to redo some past event but chances are that most events are easily preventable if you know how it's going to play out. Homura not only gained infinite timeloop powers, but she also happened to find out the truth about witches. Say she died protecting magical girl Madoka in some timeline before finding out about witches, she'd probably be satisfied with that and never would've tried to prevent Madoka's contact in the first place.
Also she needed enough determination to never witch out before Madoka had enough fate points to rewrite the laws of casuality.

go dilate.

Ah yes, because who doesn't want to starve in the gulag.

Attached: 1545316555206.jpg (1280x720, 116K)

The workers.
Don't be a Kulak

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I am perfectly satisfied with my interpretation of him

That's what you say.

You're right, I did say it.

Is Kyoko Sakura a fucking babe?

No, but she is the most attractive magical girl.

Actually that's Madoka.

Attached: tumblr_ph87f6YHM31w42cr9o1_1280.png (1047x2048, 978K)

What you know about phantasma?

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That's because they didn't know they were going to make them witches when they first wrote the series
They only started ripping off that toku show when it was clear that the show was dull and no one was really vibing on the realistic magical girl thing.

And cavemen are perfectly satisfied with living in caves.

Watch it again and reconsider if you making this post was a good idea.

>There is no goodness in anything that he does
And no evil either, I would say. There's no reason to believe he's lying about the heat death thing so it's purely self-interest of his species. Self preservation is not evil.
>most likely
>probably
>if he could
Headcanon, all of it. Prove it or drop it.
And he isn't lawful because he only sees laws/rules as a way to manipulate others, there's nothing beneficial about law itself, or order itself to Kyubey, and he utilises chaos when he thinks it will help him too.

>but it doesn't FEEL right
But he's right, though. At this point you're just moving the goalposts since you have no arguments left

>And no evil either
>intentionally decieving people into doing something they wouldn't normally do so they can suffer for your gain isn't evil
Kyubey is morally grey. He has good and evil in him.

Unlimited timestop is clearly stronger than anything the other girls can pull out, as seen vs. Walpurgisnacht. Homura doesn't even need her truly bullshit abilities to soar way ahead of the other girls.

Stop. It's bait, user. Please don't get sucked into this argument.

Chains and Ribbons beat Homura and Sayaka is too fast.

user, what are we even talking about here?
The reason WHY he MUST be right and reliably right with that is the following list of reasons:

1) Assuming he is lying here, ALL conflict would have been easily resolved with just wishing that they never came to earth in the first place. Madoka asked that question PRECISELY because she was thinking of making exactly this trivial wish.

2) If QB is actually responsible for human society, it is devastating for our position in the universe: We exist because of him, not in spite of him, but exactly because of him. We are just cattle.
QB is not a malicious force, he is the force that allowed all our society to evolve, he is our benefactor.
Furthermore, ALL of society is built on the suffering of Magical Girls.
And ALL of the structure and security that is perceived is a complete and utter farce, it is a facet. And all other possible conflicts are completely meaningless without him.
Take that away, and it ruins the setting. Perhaps you just don't grasp just HOW important and devastating this aspect is.

3) It is completely in character for QB, to tell the truth here. Why wouldn't it be true? This is an aspect of the setting that is only shown through his exposition at this point. And it is kind of supported by the imagery, like a flashback.
Do you know how rarely characters actually LIE in a flashback in fiction? I don't know a single instance where that happened.

4) It is entirely plausible that this is the case.

5) When Madoka makes her wish she flies back through time to relieve Magical Girls from their suffering. We see her rescuing historical figures.
So THAT part is confirmed fact (the method by which this would work), but the implied consequences are a lie? That is just so far fetched.

6) This is not how narrative structures work. In fiction, exposition is fact unless explicitly told otherwise. Even if narrated by the villain, otherwise you just couldn't get that information to the audience.

>lie
He's not talking about lying, though. Like other times, he is merely twisting the truth. He has something to gain here, and it is to get Madoka to contract in a way he benefits.

No, my point is that he is in this exposition telling the complete truth and nothing but the truth.
Because of arguments 1-6

He's not saying that Kyubey had zero influence on human evolution you fucking dunce. He's saying Kyubey is exaggerating by saying that Humanity wouldn't have evolved without him.

...

You post relies on that we meant that Kyubey is spreading complete falsehoods. Our theory is completely plausible.

>exaggerating
Again, NO.
I am arguing that QB is NOT exaggerating ANYTHING at all regarding this one point.
And the information he gives here is entirely correct and full.

And my arguments are talking about exactly THAT point.

And I'm saying there is no proof that what he says is absolutely correct, especially since he is a biased source. All we have seen is that he has influence, not that he is the sole reason for human civilization.

I have addressed EXACTLY this here with point 2,3,4 and 6 here

no you didn't

You can't squash this theory because it relies on skepticism. It's a reasonable skepticism because Kyubey has proven he manipulates the truth when he's trying to manipulate the megucas, which is what's happening in that scene.

Perhaps you are just not capable of understanding my arguments?
"no you"
Is not a reasonable reply

Madoka erasing witches, something only Kyubey's intereference made possible, and replacing them with a wholly different creature with a different nature should've had a profound impact on human societal development, but things turned out more or less exactly the same. I'd say Kyubey's influence is not as profound as you're purporting here.

Sure, I can't squash this theory in the same way that you can't squash the theory that the universe just does not exist (in real life).
That's you can make any kind of potentially valid propositions.

Like, ok, I have the theory that Humans in Madoka's world have 3 kidneys.
There is no way to disprove it.

Yet you have no reasonable basis for that theory, unlike the one i'm arguing.

You have none either.
Humans were evolved under QB's influence, it is reasonable for them to have a different Physiology then in real life.

Their reality is no different from ours aside from the magical girl system and aliens. There is no reason to doubt that that their physiology is the same. The show made no comment on any difference in human physiology with our reality.

I get what you're doing and you think you're terribly clever, but this is not an equivalent argument to the one I'm making. You're just making yourself look dumber.

The world after Madoka's wish looks entirely different from the one we saw before.
There are a giant desert and ruins in Japan.
Honestly, Madoka is so abstract at that point that this is both artistic license and metaphors.
Also, Homura needed to exist in Madoka's world, so it was kind of constrained by that. This is actually extremely interesting to talk about because the world Madoka created must have a past that roughly fits the present because of Karmatic constraints.

>There are a giant desert and ruins in Japan.
We have no idea what this is, where it is, or when it is. It might not even be on Earth for what we know.

Say, dumbass, i've got a question for you. Does Kyubey exist in this universe? And if not, have we still evolved to the point where we no longer live in caves?

If you think long and hard about those two questions. It should become obvious that some degree of skepticism is necessary.

>The world after Madoka's wish looks entirely different from the one we saw before.
Is it though?
Mitakihara is the same and so are the people. The butterfly effect starting so far back should've made it so that none of those people were born, let alone that whole society.

>this is not an equivalent argument to the one I'm making
No, that wasn't my point.
I get why you would think that, but no it isn't.
My point is the following:
>Their reality is no different from ours aside from the magical girl system and aliens. There is no reason to doubt that that their physiology is the same. The show made no comment on any difference in human physiology with our reality.
This is a meta derivation.
You are deriving this EXCLUSIVELY from the narrative convention.
There is another narrative convention, argument 6 :
>In fiction, exposition is fact unless explicitly told otherwise. Even if narrated by the villain, otherwise you just couldn't get that information to the audience.
In fiction, the way you do exposition about the distant past is to have the villain tell you about it.
This is how Madara does it in Naruto
This is how it works in ALL of them, the villain tells you about the past.
That is established and that is how it works.
And they do not lie about it unless explicitly told otherwise. That is just how narrative works.

If you think that "that's not necessarily the case here!" Then how do you know that Madoka follows the meta-narrative on other things?

Madoka's world needed to create a past that is close to fitting the present.
Have you ever heard the phrase:
"Ever moment has many possible futures and many possible pasts"?
It's an interesting idea and related to this case.
I get what you are saying.
But the problem is that
>The butterfly effect starting so far back should've made it so that none of those people were born, let alone that whole society.
Would be devastating, even if the influence of witches was only moderate.

You are not capable of abstraction, user.
Madoka is asking the question: "What if something like QB actually DOES exist in our world and we only evolved because of it?"
It's like the monolith from 2001.
So yes, how do YOU know that he doesn't exist in our world? Maybe Madoka is actually telling the truth accidentally. Maybe Magical Girls and Witches actually do exist?
How do you know?

>"Every moment has many possible futures and many possible pasts"
If you acknowledge this, especially when it comes to a fictional narrative, then you be reasonable to you that humanity can evolve to the same point with similar events even without Kyubey. Now you aren't being consistent.

I think if Madoka would have wished that:
"I wish the world as it is now would exist and humans built this society on our own without your help, and you never came to earth in the first place" it would have actually worked.

So you believe that such a profound change to history like the replacement of witches can reasonably lead to the exact same or similar outcome, but not the removal of Kyubey's influence? Such a seemingly profound change having little influence on history gives precedent to the idea that removing the incubators from the equation would lead to the exact same or similar outcome just like the substitution of witches with wraiths.

Perhaps, Madoka could have actually ascended Humans like that.
But that would be against the karmic rule, so it's interesting to think about this.

Also, this would have disrupted the order of the world, and changed human nature or something. So it's a more Homura thing to do if you think about it...
It is actually interesting because the "magical girls advanced humanity" thing is actually resembling the Pareto distribution, as in "the advances of civilization are made by very few individuals", and these individuals are all Megucas in Madoka's world.

But again, sure I acknowledge this path for possibilities. And it is very interesting to think about, and it makes sense.

Did this really warrant 500+ replies?

No. This warranted 500k replies, because we had this thread over 1000 times already.

magical girls being the only ones who advanced humanity is potentially problematic since it's quite contrived to say that EVERY SINGLE major event and advancement in human society was directly caused by magical girls.

In 2001 we see what catalyzed human societal development.
In Madoka Magica we only have Kyubey's word.

witches and wraiths fill a similar role in history.
Without the incubators, you would have a totally different karmic balance in the world.

Without a method to reproduce the same outcome, like deliberately wishing for the addition of a substitute force it is not that likely.

Also, if Madoka Wished for that, what would have happened with her negative energy?

>Also, if Madoka Wished for that, what would have happened with her negative energy?
who fucking cares? this is not the discussion we're having.

Well, ironically if you look at it from this perspective.
They seem to have a matriarchal society, with stay at home dads and such.
So it would actually make sense that Magical Girls caused that development and were the leading figures of history in their world.

No. This is exactly the discussion we are having.
Weights only worked because they balanced out the karmic burden.
How would you do that without the incubators?

>they seem to have a matriarchal society
>stay at home dads don't exist in real life
>madoka's parents are the rule

Madoka Magica is gender inverted.

Yet this outcome is produced in real life
>b-but muh meta narrative
it is literally impossible to consume fiction without some form of meta narrative. At the very foundation, this is what language is. They speak Japanese, and you must have meta knowledge of the Japanese language (or whatever it's translated into) to understand the show. In Madoka Magica, it's portrayed as our reality except with Magical girls and Aliens. We are meant to consume it from that perspective. This is on top of the fact that Madoka Magica subverts certain tropes of the genre, which plays into part of its impact as a show.

Now is not the time, faggot.

Attached: 1534660882455.png (438x291, 179K)

Ok, so you invoked tropes first.
Fuck me for quoting TV tropes, but
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FictionNeverLies

This is the reason why QB does not lie or twist anything here.

All instances where he twists the truth are exposed later. But not here, that would just be retarded and no one would get it. Why would anyone write something so retarded as to have him lie here and then never address it later?

Also, it IS plausible.

So, sure, there is not PROOF that he is telling the truth here, but there is no proof that they are speaking Japanese either.
FFS, perhaps its a different language that uses the same words and that SOUND like it's japaneese but actually it's insulting you in the harshest ways possible in an extra constructed alien language called Sgdgdgsdfdfsddddd

>not completely retarded Madoka thread
What are the odds

Attached: sayaka copter.jpg (297x357, 17K)

QB strong

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>Yet this outcome is produced in real life
I don't recall that there ever was a magical girl who wished that aliens would go away from earth in history.
QB is the monolyth from 2001, because he says so.

So it is plausible and there is a precedent for a case like that.
And there is no indication that he exaggerated it there.
That is where we stand.

And you are saying, well, TECHNICALLY he could have lied.
Well, yes, sure, technically it is fiction and you can not understand it without meta-narrative anyway.

I have kind of forgotten it.

Please do purposefully misinterpret what I said

No, I genuinely thought your argument was that humans evolved naturally in real life, was it not?

not those kind of tropes dumb nigger

>QB
what is this meme
did a new adaptation come out somewhere with the wrong spelling again

my mistake
i misread your post
>I don't recall that there ever was a magical girl who wished that aliens would go away from earth in history.
you're just not arguing in good faith

He's been called QB for ages user.

It's still a trope. Read the page, it's EXACTLY about this kind of argument, fucking kike.

It's a bit rhetorical, but that does not make it in bad faith.
Madoka portrays our reality, but it is suggesting or better playing with the idea that our reality is itself not what it seems.

So what exactly is the disagreement now, user?
About whether the meta-narrative is applicable to this degree?

Kyubey is not the narrator though, and we're given reasons not to trust him.

This isn't about the narrator, user.
There is also
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainsNeverLie

it's true kyubey never lies
but he twists the truth and leaves out important parts

>tvtropes

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it's sad that his argument has come to that point
this whole thing is a waste of time

nobody likes you

We have established that:

1) It could be true
2) There are cases in other fiction like in 2001 where this was true
3) If it is true he would tell it like it is
4) It is never questioned in the story
5) It makes sense from a narrative perspective for it to be true
6) It makes sense from a worldbuilding perspective for it to be true

And all you have as a counter is:
"Well, he could be stretching the truth, lol, he did it before!"

(DISCLAIMER: When I say "this is true, I mean this is not stretched at all, and the full and complete truth exactly as he says")

Imagine thinking that in this case, the argument is somehow in your favor.
The TV Tropes thing was only to give you yet ANOTHER reason why this is true.

Magical Girl of the Day: Rumour of the 10000 Year Sakura (Sakurako Hiiragi)
-A Rumour created by Nemu based off of Ui's drawings. The aspiration being they'll all meet at a giant 10000 Year Sakura Tree.
-Released in April, the start of Spring and the Sakura season as befitting her name
-She has Four Moms. Due to Ui drawing her, Touka and Nemu using their powers to give them life and Iroha watching over all three of them.
-Was made judge, jury and executioner in the post-epilogue, epilogue and was asked to decide the fates of Touka and Nemu
-She was loaded up with infodump about the Japanese legal system but without important details like the criminal age of responsibility. The cut-off date to submit evidence was also not given.
-The effect was that she presided over a kangaroo trial to sentence her Touka and Nemu to death.
-Literally begged to die when Iroha and Ui stepped in front of her and Touka and Nemu. Would rather die than kill Touka and Nemu
-Attends Minagi Freedom School and is in the journalism club with ex-Feathers Ryou. Meaning the daughter of Magius is now in a club with their ex-subordinate.
-Attends school under the name Sakurako 'Hiiragi.'
-Technically not a Magical Girl, she's actually a Rumour meaning she's the first playable Cute Monster Girl
-RumourFu. Marry this Gayby Baby
-Her weapon is a light sword which makes the comparison to Tenshi, another kuudere all the more appropriate
-Voiced by Minori Suzuki, who has been a fan of Madoka since she was in Middle School
-Illustrated by Fuzichoco who seems to have based Sakurako off her original V-Tuber design for Nijisanji

Attached: SakurakoHiiragi.jpg (540x540, 47K)

I could make similar 6 points for my argument as well and they would be perfectly valid all the same

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Well, then why didn't you?
I can only see a single argument for your position in this entire thread.

because i'm tired and it's not worth the energy
this argument will only go in circles just as it has been the last 200 posts

It has been only going in circles because you are just repeating your single argument over and over again.
The whole case has been from the beginning has been: "Well, he could be stretching the truth, lol".
There is literally nothing else.

You've already given my argument equal validity to yours anyways
so there really is not point

>You are not capable of abstraction, user.
I am. You just don't understand the concept of supernatural alt history, apparently.

>"What if something like QB actually DOES exist in our world"
That is a important and clearly established point of the story.

>and we only evolved because of it?"
That's just just something one character mentioned as a possibility at some point.

>It's like the monolith from 2001.
Our world and the one of 2001 kind of diverged at some point, user. I remember 2001 just fine, and space odysseys were not a thing.

>So yes, how do YOU know that he doesn't exist in our world?
Because he's a fictional character in a anime.

Only because something is technically constructive, does not mean that it has "equal validity.", to the obvious authorial intent.

>authorial intent
lmao

This is just embarrassing to read, I'm not even going to humor you.

Glad to see you don't have an argument against someone so thoroughly destroying you.

It's also actually not true, going by the spinoffs. Human history still seems to have remained mostly the same. Even if magical girls were almost certainly involved in most major events to some capacity.

Personally I really doubt that Urobuchi put all that much thought into the whole "human advancement was caused by magical girls" thing

So... you just give up? I mean, fair enough. I don't know how you can genuinely still pretend Kyubey wasn't full of shit when the counterargument is the actual real world.

Urobuch has gone to say he hasn't put much thought into the specifics and worldbuilding in interviews, actually. Homura's shield is one thing that comes to mind.

>When you miss the point of a post calling you out for not understanding abstractions... by not understanding the proposed hypothetical
Embarrassing. Never post again.

>Homura thread died in 50 posts
>Kyubey thread at 550+ posts
Kyubey is the real main character

And Neon Genesis Evangelion's Director Said he liked the Symbolism because it looked cool.
And it has *No*, I repeat *NO* depth at all. *wink* *wink*

Obviously. It's not that big of a deal in the story either. It's important for the world building (and setting up possible spin offs). As well as being one final horrifying reveal that makes it clear just how big and all encompassing the whole magical girl system is, thus setting up Madoka's wish, and having some important thematic relevance. But I very much doubt Urobuchi spend more than a minute actually working through the alt history implications of such a thing. Which is why human history seems to still basically be the same.

>What if something like QB actually DOES exist in our world
Then now we go right back to the beginning. So what if he does? Is his influence really that profound?

Yes, you don't know.
That is exactly the point.
Read my post again.
You replied to a theoretical contemplation with "because he is an anime character".
You weren't even capable of entertaining the thought I proposed and replied with something that is completely in the opposite direction of what I was suggesting.

The hypothetical you talk about doesn't actually exist, at least not in the same way you seem to think it does. The hypothetical question being asked is: "What if something like QB actually DOES exist". Not "What if something like QB actually DOES exist in our world and we only evolved because of it?"

>The hypothetical you talk about doesn't actually exist
By definition.
A hypothetical doe not exist, by definition, user.
That's why it is hypothetical.

All in all, to say how far Kyubey's influence on humanity's growth is truly unknown since we don't see it. What we do know is that magical girls did have an influence. We also know that even if we change the nature of being a magical girl by substituting the malevolent witches with something far more tame and less tragic like wraiths, the whole magical girl/witch system changed history only on a micro level. It could go both ways.

Well, we would be living in caves otherwise (because he said so), so yes.
And now we get back into the circular argument.

Like I don't understand where the disagreement even lies anymore at this point desu.
You seem to dismiss my arguments about narrative structures of fiction.
Without that we reach what you said here: >equal validity

If you dismiss fictional meta-structures that's where we end up.
So that's how we end up? Honestly, that's not a bad point to agree to disagree.

Why the fuck should I entertain the notion that a FICTIONAL character is somehow not fictional? Is this seriously how far you are willing to reach to try and make a point? Even as a theoretical contemplation, it means nothing and adds nothing to this conversation.

I would argue the spin offs seem to imply that it was mostly a micro level thing. But yes, in the actual show it's basically completely ambiguous.