So why didn’t Akatsuki recruited him?

Hidan is pretty dogshit as well and was recruited because they need someone that Kakazu can't kill in a fit. Half the jobbers introduced in the war arc from the other countries could beat him. He's just lucky he went up against Konoha's close range fighters.

Didn’t Hidan defeat the two tailed jinchurikie almost effortlessly?

Also, he massacred a temple full of ninja monks and killed Asuma

Zabuza couldn’t even defeat Kakashi

Because he was trying to overthrow Obito’s control over the mist village.
He was unironcially a good guy.

>Didn’t Hidan defeat the two tailed jinchurikie almost effortlessly?
Kakuzu was there too and IIRC we just saw the aftermath.

He got his ass kicked by 12 year olds

Kagura being controlled wasn't even a thought back then.

user, I was saying Hidan would win effortlessly.

The Bloody Mist idea was already from back then. A village that has academy students kill each other to graduate, no wonder half their ninjas go rogue.

Can't blame Yagura for that. I don't want weak, mentally stable shinobi either.

Going 2 tail berserk was probably a bad idea against Hidan and Kakuzu. You have to use your brains to analyse Hidan's gimmick and avoid getting cut.

Asuma was a melee fighter which Hidan completely hard counters. Even then his team quickly defeated Hidan before the immortal gimmick.

Nah. Zabuza would beat Hidan. Hidan was a slow ass one trick pony. Zabuza is all about silent, instant kill techniques using hidden mist. He'll definitely go for a decapitation and kill off Hidan.

They're the same level so Zabuza should qualify for the Akatsuki. It's not like ALL of them were Kage-level monsters. Just most.

Killing your friends and having a traumatic childhood don't make for mentally stable ninjas. And those that do survive are psychopaths with huge egos who leave the village anyway. The Mist is the weakest village in show bar the Sand for a reason.

>Didn’t Hidan defeat the two tailed jinchurikie almost effortlessly?
No. Kakuzu was there and it's arguable because only Bee and Yagura were called perfect Jinchuuriki. Yugito or whatever her name was likely didn't have full control over her own.

Now that I think about it, a big bunch of legendary swordmen were traitors (criminals, terrorists, mercenaries) and had no loyalty to the Mist Village at all

Kisame, Zabuza, Juzo, Raiga
4 out of 7 members were rouge ninjas

What’s up with the Mist Village and their massive desertion rates?

>Killing your friends and having a traumatic childhood don't make for mentally stable ninjas.
Top tier reading comprehension, user.

real dyslexia hours

Zabuza and Kisame would ironically have gotten along.

They were oppressed

>Haku and Zabuza couldn't even take on regular 0 tails kyuubi-chakra Naruto lmfao
Naruto wasn't planned out proper back then. KN0 was stronger than Kakashi, said by Zabuza. In the war, we see Haku (who lost to said Naruto) reacting to War Arc Kakashi and tanking kicks from Lee and Gai which matches up with the hype the Waves arc gave him but didn't live up to. P1 was a completely different manga.

God tier:

>Pain (Nagato)

Absolute unit tier

>Obito
>Itachi

Ok tier:

>Orochimaru
>Konan
>Sasori
>Kizame

Meh tier:

>Deidara
>Kakuzu
>Zetzu

Shit tier:

>Hidan

Am I right?

I wonder how a Deidara vs Sasori would have ended

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Like this?

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>Absolute unit tier
>>Obito
>>Itachi
Same person, idiot.

Konan with prep time is God tier

Konan is unit

Deidara has a better matchup against Sasori unless Iron sand can hard counter his bombs, which might actually be possible seeing as its a stronger jutsu than Gaara's sand.

Fuck off nuruturd, you spamming way too much

Based

Hahahahahahano.

I’d move Kakuzu up at least one tier. Like Hidan, if you don’t know his gimmick beforehand he can catch you off guard once you think you’ve killed him and then it’s gg. Even then, you still have to kill him four more times to put him down for good. He was also shown to be decently intelligent, tanky as fuck, and fast enough to keep up with Kakashi in taijutsu. And he could use 4 different elements on top of all that. If it hadn’t been for Hidan being dumb he would have killed Team Asuma easily and probably Kakashi as well.

But he was part of akatsuki, there was this filler mini arc dedicated to itachi were it was show how he became a member, and his first partner was zabuza.

Zabuza effectively beat kakashi the first time, it was only plot stupidity that he didn't kill him when he had the chance

Kakuzu is at least OK tier. It took a combined effort of Team Asuma, Team Yamato, and Kakashi to take him down and it wasn’t like he got straight up overpowered of out skilled. Every time he was about to finish someone off a new fighter would jump in at the last second and even after Hidan fucked up and killed his main heart, he was still no selling everyone for the most part. Even when Naruto jumped it he had to be restrained by Kakashi and Yamato before Naruto could land Rasenshuriken.

>Because he's weak as shit. Literally base jonin level
he's an s rank missing nin

everyone and their mother is an s rank missing nin.

Because he tried to assassinate the fourth Mizukage, aka the one the Akatsuki were manipulating.

If you adjust for power creep Zabuza was pretty strong. The only reason he can be considered weak is because he was the first opponent, and shounen villains are required to be stronger than all previous villains. In any sane power scaling he would've been Akatsuki-tier.

Wasn't that supposed to be where one of the only remaining eyehax bloodlines was at before Boruto make what's her face? If could have just been a ritual to bring out whatever the equivalent of mangekyo was if any of the students secretly had it.

/this

Because you don't team crazy with crazy. Every psycho Akatsuki member had a more level headed teammate to rein them in. Kisame had Itachi, Deidara had Sasori, Hidan had Kakuzu

Retcons and power creep. Zabuza was from when the series was actually about normal power levelled ninjas. Kakashi vs Zabuza was supposed to be like Nomu vs All Might as an early glance at the near peak of the power. Unfortunately the show got weirder and they also sanitized the ninja world a lot more. Bloody Mist wasn't supposed to be a tobi plot but just an example of ninja brutality.

>Kakashi vs Zabuza was supposed to be like Nomu vs All Might as an early glance at the near peak of the power
I think Orochimaru vs Sarutobi functions better as this

Too weak

He's A rank dumbass.

Kakashi vs. Zabuza should've been peak jounin and Orochimaru vs Sarutobi should've been peak shinobi.

>Showing the peak in powerlevel early one helps stop powercreep
>Naruto does this and still has awful powercreep

>couldn't even beat Kakashi
Kakashi isn't exactly weak

Good point. It's kind of comical to watch old Naruto and compare power levels/the world.

Old Naruto: Ninjas are expected to go on death missions in a brutal world. Dozens of people die during the chuunin exams and nobody cares.

Nu Naruto: Ninjas are friendly happy people and the chuunin exams are closer to simple sparring matches and games or tag.

>Nu Naruto: Ninjas are friendly happy people and the chuunin exams are closer to simple sparring matches and games or tag.
Why wouldn't Naruto want to improve things after becoming Hokage?

They should have kept Sasori alive and Deidara alive

because ninjaing was everyones main economy

Even before Naruto became hokage they retconned things like Gaaras dad being a nice guy afterall and hastily finding ways to blame every bad practice/idea on Danzo or Tobi.

Hanzo is a dictator? Nope Danzo told him to kill the orphans.

Bloody Mist? Nope he was brainwashed by sharingan.

It's funny how Izanagi is presented alongside Danzo. A nonsense technique for rewriting reality to shelter you from consequence... With the character explicitly written in to act as a lightning rod for Uchiha consequence.
Pottery

Required too much finesse and creativity on Kishimoto's part. Gotta have those attacks with even bigger booms, and the shocking no-sells to make room for the next technique.

They already had a sword guy.

People in this thread forgetting that Zabuza killed a Kage and would probably kick the shit out of Hidan at a bare minimum. Even Asuma defeated Hidan and Asuma only lost due to Kakuzu. Sorry I would have a hard time imagining a world where Asuma would defeat Zabuza considering he practically defeated Kakashi in their first encounter.
Zabuza is surprisingly strong for an early villain, he probably could've beaten a few of the lower tailed beasts.

this he lost to a Kakashi that considered himself to be in bad shape.

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But obito was the coolest

>Because he's weak as shit
Everyone in the original series was weak.

I don't know...maybe because Chunin could kill him?

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>People in this thread forgetting that Zabuza killed a Kage
You mean he failed at killing a Mizukage and had to run away with his tail between his legs like a bitch?

I want zabuza's ""sword"" in my ""scabbard"".

even if he's a worthless jobber

The Kakashi he fought didn't even have the Mangekyo sharingan.

Yes he did. He just didn't use it.

Story-wise, he got is Mangekyou whilst watching Rin being killed.

>Because he's weak as shit.

There's no such thing as a weak as shit Jonin. They're literally the cream of the crop of the ninja world. What's more, he was one of the Seven Swordsmen. They don't hand that shit out to anybodies. And beyond that, Zabuza's stealth skills were canonically the best in the series.

He’s a lightweight

i mean, he came back from the dead

This. All the Akatsuki members had to be at least Kage level since the jinchuriki were often some of the strongest shinobi in their village

>Gaara was Kazekage and jinchuriki of the one-tails
>The Fourth Mizukage was the jinchuriki of the four-tails
>Killer Bee was one of the strongest Cloud Village ninja of his time due to his perfect control of the Eight Tails

Zabuza would get molested by any of the jinchuriki

The Seven Swordsmen are the biggest jokes in the series. One sword is a toothpick with strings, an axe and hammer, 2nd rate Konan and low level lightning techniques. Considering the power creep during the war arc, Kishi could've at least made more Kisames but nope even the hyped up Mangetsu is a joke.

/thread

Because he was weak.

so if zabuza was rebelling against the fourth mizukage, who was a puppet of madara, his cause was perfectly just and he easily could've been a good guy right?

i mean, the hidden mist was literally a puppet state of madara/obito, you'd expect there to be a ton of deserters. we don't know the details of how yagura was taken out anyway; did mei lead a coup or something?

and kisame didn't even really betray the village; he did his job like he was supposed to, up to killing his master for leaking info, and then he learned that his kage was actually a puppet and he'd been serving madara/obito all along, so he just kept on being loyal to the person he'd been following the orders of all along

danzo really makes the 3rd hokage look like a dumbass or an asshole; the whole uchiha massacre explanation is just so nonsensical

Just put him with konan

kisame and itachi were a pretty bro-tier partnership, amazing that they were genuinely friends. in a sea of silly writing for characters, kisame was really great, and kishi did it in like one chapter

Look at me! There is nothing in my heart. I don't feel pain any longer.

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Kisame pretty much acknowledged that he's the jobbber of the mist. Why would they recruit him?

How did yagura die again?

Konan's nuke ability would have killed obito and damn near anyone in the world if not for hacks. Itachi was retconned into being OP, and orochimaru has the strongest musou tenseii

your list sucks fat cock and all naruto threads should be deleted

Hes a drifter guyssssss

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There is no need to feel guilty, user. This hole was opened up by this world of hell. I only had pain inside here before, but really, what's the meaning in that? So, I've abandoned it all. Meanwhile, you have suffered all this time. user, it's okay now. You don't need to suffer anymore. Your waifu is right here. Along with your ideal version of me. Wish for whatever you want, anything is possible in this genjutsu world. That hole in your heart can be filled immediately.
based

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Thats Pains waifu, he won't let anyone have her

What's your issue with a genjutsu world? Reality is cruel. This hole is just going to keep getting bigger. Things don't always go the way you want them. Right, user? Don't you agree? How would you seal this hole, by living in a world like this?

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Akatsuki didn't exist when Kishimoto wrote Zabuza.

Zabuza and Wave Arc Kakashi would job to Valley of the End Sasuke because powerscaling in Shounen is completely fucking whack and is the main detraction of the genre.

Zabuza was supposed to have led a rebellion against the Mizukage. All he could do was throw around some water dragons and conjure some fog that gets completely invalidated by anyone with a bloodline.

This was really strong at the start of the series when the notable thing about the Nidaime Hokage was that he didn't even need a water source nearby for his water ninjutsu.

Then at the end of the series they had to retcon all the previous Hokage because Kishimoto realized that he made the strongest Leaf Village ninja of all time significantly weaker than literal 15 year olds with next to no training.

tldr kishimoto is a goddamned hack just like every other shounen writer

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Literally nothing happens in the Sarutobi vs. Orochi fight.

Some tiles get thrown around like shuriken, Orochi's summoned Hokage do some basic shit aside from Shodai dumping trees everywhere, Sarutobi's summoned ape turns into a staff so he can fight in melee range, and some fuckin ANBU (allegedly the best of the best) hop into a flaming barrier and get zapped.

Then Sarutobi summons Death and doesn't even kill Orochi.

That fight was straight summons and people acting stupid.

>Kakuzu
>meh tier
>Konan
>Ok tier
Gay. Konan only came as close to beating Obito as she did because she prepared for weeks. If she tried to fight Kakuzu or Deidara without prep, she'd get shredded like the paper she uses. So, no, you're wrong.

the Hidden Mist jutsu and Silent killing is strong though. Kakashi had to use up a good amount of chakra just to blow it away.

The barrier wasn't on fire though, and only one of them hit it. Still, with two of the anbu literally not knowing who the 1st and 2nd were by looks alone was pretty fucking dumb. Anbu are the naruto equivalent of elite mooks.

Zabuza sword can not be beat.

Kishi should have taken his 'regenerates from the Iron in victim's blood' idea for Zabuza's sword, and extended it to make it 'sword sucks up the blood of its victims leading to rapid blood loss'.
That would have made it more comparable to the other swords, like the shark one and the green lantern ring sword. One slice and it drains a significant amount of your blood.

it's a bit tricky, they all have different specialties, I would certainly have Deidara over Kizame if all I want is cause chaos and mayhem as a distraction while someone else does a stealth job, speaking of which, Deidara only lost because of 2 asspulls, very few people can fly, has the longest range aside of Pain and arguably the best genocidal jutsu, but at close range he is plain shit, I would put him 1 or 2 tier above
the best way to rank them would be looking at all the individual match ups and ranking them according to their record

>gg
Cringe

Are you a feemale?

Because Zabuza is quite literally a jobber. If you were pain/obito, why would you recruit a guy with no feats compared to Sasori or Deidara

Sasori killed a kage, did Deidara have much of a rep prior to joining? All I know is that he pulled a Naruto and stole a forbidden Jutsu then left the village.

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Being the first big bad in a long running series that was basically 15 years of not-so-subtle power creep really puts you at a disadvantage.

Kakuzu and Deidara aren't be able to touch her. She'll pepper them with paper planes until they run out of chakra/clay.

Funny considering Zabuza end goal was to perform a coup on the Jinchuriki 4th Mizukage

>Haku never got to grow up and become a strong masculine man

It hurts bros

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well, Deidara stole a forbidden jutsu and his escape involved destroying a good chunk of the village, after that he became a terrorist for hire, we don't know the shit he was responsable for before joining

All I gotta say is part 1 is kino as fuck and on rewatches is still tense and fun to watch.

>Deidara has heat seeking explosives that Sasuke could barely outrun
>Kakuzu can hit her with lightning
Konan would literally get fucked by the majority of the Akatsuki unless she pulled what she did to Obito on them.

Konan was pretty much a member just because she was Pain's right hand and basically the second in command

I mean, she was a member since it was founded, and it's not like she's weak or anything, but compared to the rest of the Akatsuki, she would lose to the majority of them.

The bootleg looks like a chill and caring dude despite being a murderer.

Heat seeking explosives targetting what? A piece of paper? Konan's paper could counter Jiraiya's fire, she'll be fine against explosions and lightning if they can even touch her. And while they're doing all this she can attack them from all angles.

Neither was the Akarsuki

Ebisu is a jonin

are you retarded?the manga starts introducing you to a mountain busting monster.

>Prodigal student of a legendary kage
>Managed to steal, learn, and master a forbidden S-rank jutsu under the age of 20
>BTFO'd the 3rd and blew up half the Village when he defected, successfully.
>Underground famous terrorist for hire
>Possess KG

>Son of a legendary kage
>stole and learned an S rank forbidden jutsu in a few hours when he was 12.
>Beat the 3rd by giving him a nose bleed
>defaced and damaged a national monument
Naruto is Akatsuki material

Naruto has more things that qualify him for being an overpowered Akatsuki member
Too bad he's a Senjew mindslave

nah

Old Naruto had a totally different atmosphere...there was sense that even a powerful character could die if a weaker one finessed him in battle. This was before powerlvls and eyehax.

He's a Special Jounin whose specialty lies specifically in teaching.

he is and he's cool, all around based.

Aside from the fact that they were going to kill him by removing his tailed beast.

We can pinpoint when he died (end of Part 1, as Jiraiya told Naruto then that something happened that delayed Akatsuki hunt for 3 years, and 3 years later Sanbi was in the open), so I'd say it's related to how Mei became Mizukage, how Ao using Byakugan realised Yagura is controlled by someone using skill similar to Kotoamatsukami (possibly Obito using combo of Mokuton and MS to control Yagura despite his Perfect Jinchuuriki status), and how could someone as skilled as Hozuki Mangetsu die. Likely those of the Seven Swordsmen who were alive and in Kiri helped to stage successful coup, but at the cost of their own lives.

>All the Akatsuki members had to be at least Kage level
Hidan was not Kage level and it has never been said they all needed to be either. Hell, everyone thought Tobi and Zetsu were weakling rookies or suited for recon only.

Kakuzu was literally put on a team with Hidan as a punishment for keeping to kill whoever he was partnered with before, because they were pissing him off so much he cared not about them being included in one of his area of effect jutsu, if he managed to wait that long.

I'd add Sannin fight and Naruto vs Gaara-Shukaku as peak shinobi fights for various reasons.
Power creep ruined the manga. Coincidentally, the character that introduced power creep was Itachi, and every time he appeared it was getting worse.

Actually, Bloody Mist was a thing at least since 3rd Mizukage (because 2nd was too much of a bro that disliked Muu for underhanded tactics like betraying the ally right after beating common enemy) and was either suspended or permanently stopped after Zabuza did what he did, which would have happened before Yagura was a Jinchuuriki, and obviously Mizukage too.
We do not know if it was brought back during Yagura's reign.

Op tier
>Pain
>Itachi
>Obito

Strong as fuck tier
>Kisame
>Kakuzu

Strong
>Konan
>Deidara
>Sasori

Meh
>Hidan
>Zetsu

Kakuzu definitely isn't strong as fuck tier. I'd put both Sasori and Deidara above him. Kakuzu and Hidan were the weakest group.

Kisame was strong as fuck for Chakra monsters like Bijuu. For those who don't rely on overwhelming chakra like Gai, he was significantly less of a problem.

It was funny that Guy saw him as such a minor threat that he never bothered to learn his name.

Hidan's technique was Kage level. And Zetsu had a useful ability to move through the environment and eat corpse to hide evidence, not anything any random shinobi could do. And Tobi was just a cover.

Hidan's technique could be stopped easily, because everything else about him was average or just jonin at best. Even if he can't be killed, he can be disabled and chuunin could accomplish it.
>Zetsu
In other words, Akatsuki members weren't expected to be gods in combat. All I needed to know
>And Tobi was just a cover.
And a member, and the ones who didn't know his true identity, didn't bat an eye to his joining their ranks.

>Hidan's technique could be stopped easily, because everything else about him was average or just jonin at best. Even if he can't be killed, he can be disabled and chuunin could accomplish it.
Not being killed still makes him a heavy-hitter, and those who don't know about his technique are screwed. His fighting style may be average, but those two things makes him incredibly dangerous to practically everyone.

>In other words, Akatsuki members weren't expected to be gods in combat. All I needed to know
Zetsu was a special case. While he isn't powerful, he has abilities that set him apart from the rest. He was there spy, so he filled a role they others couldn't.

>And a member, and the ones who didn't know his true identity, didn't bat an eye to his joining their ranks.
He was considered Zetsu's subordinate, and the some of the members did acknowledge that he wasn't skilled. But you need to look at it in a bigger perspective. Tobi wasn't just some random guy they all let in. He was Pain's secret boss and was stronger than he let on. So Obito basically cheated the ranks of Akatsuki for his favor.

>reading that much manga
mangafags are no fun at all

the Akatsuki wasn't an idea yet. Kishi was probably meaning for Sauske or orochimaru to be the final boss at that point

The only thing that was weak about him was his heart

Akatsuki were supposed to be monsters, with Itachi and possibly the leader being the only ones looking human. So Zabuza wouldn't fit the bill for the original concept.

>Not being killed still makes him a heavy-hitter, and those who don't know about his technique are screwed. His fighting style may be average, but those two things makes him incredibly dangerous to practically everyone.
Not being killed is irrelevant if he can still be incapacitated and beaten. They didn't know his powers at first either, yet Hidan would have gotten destroyed by Shikamaru, a few chunin and Asuma if Kakuzu wasn't there. A kage would annhilate that group in their first run in.
>Zetsu was a special case
>He was considered Zetsu's subordinate, and the some of the members did acknowledge that he wasn't skilled.
You aren't really saying anything I haven't already said. Zetsu had a special skill that made him noteworthy, one that wasn't about combat and nobody complains. Tobi was selected by Pain, despite not being apparently strong, and nobody can do shit about it. Konan is another shinboi who isn't especially powerful (all her best shit is with full knowledge and major prep, otherwise she wasn't noteworthy) and still in the Akatsuki. If they wanted, Zabuza could join for whatever arbitrary reason they deemed. Hell, assassination could be one reason. You don't need to be Kage-level to be selected and that has never been stated as a requirement either.

FGOkeks, get out of my Yea Forums

>Not being killed is irrelevant if he can still be incapacitated and beaten. They didn't know his powers at first either, yet Hidan would have gotten destroyed by Shikamaru, a few chunin and Asuma if Kakuzu wasn't there. A kage would annhilate that group in their first run in.
But it's still not a normal ability, and can pretty much kill a Kage if they fell into it. It's something that can be stopped once it's done. See:

>Can't be decapitated and can have his limbs sowed back on.
>Can curse you using your blood and can send damage back to you if you damage him or if he damages himself.

And not even shinobi has an extremely high IQ like Shikamaru, so it's not really fair to compare him to other shinobi.

>You aren't really saying anything I haven't already said. Zetsu had a special skill that made him noteworthy, one that wasn't about combat and nobody complains.
Because that's an ability no one has. It's best to take advantage of that. There is also the fact Zetsu was around during the later formation of Akatsuki under Pain since Day 1 along with Tobi. He already had a grip in the organization even if he didn't fit the criteria of being strong. You''re looking the front of Akatsuki, not behind the scenes.

>Tobi was selected by Pain, despite not being apparently strong, and nobody can do shit about it. Konan is another shinboi who isn't especially powerful (all her best shit is with full knowledge and major prep, otherwise she wasn't noteworthy) and still in the Akatsuki. If they wanted, Zabuza could join for whatever arbitrary reason they deemed. Hell, assassination could be one reason. You don't need to be Kage-level to be selected and that has never been stated as a requirement either.
Like I just said: behind the scenes. Tobi wasn't just some nobody. Pain worked for him and thought he was Madara. He was given leeway to be more involved in the organization for his plans. Zabuza wouldn't fit because he was as basic as them come.

actually, of the Akatsuki the only ones who are Kage level or can keep up toe to toe with Kages are
>Pain
>Itachi
>Kizame
>Sasori
>Deidara
>Orochimaru
and I still have my doubts with Itachi and Kizame, Itachi has shit stamina and Kizame relies too heavily on his opponents

Not him, but Kage level is pretty vague. We have the Kages in Boruto, which 3/5 are pretty weak, to people like Naruto. Pretty sure anyone in Akatsuki can beat Chojuro easy

I bet Orochimaru and Sasuke (not mentioning Sakura) weren't even a thing back when idea for Land of Wave and Zabuza was born in Kishi's mind.

>2nd main character and first or secodn major antagonist weren't thought of
ummm...

Konan's paper only countered Jiraiya's fire because she'd soaked the paper in water beforehand.

Sasuke was created on editorial suggestion to make a rival, as Naruto was supposed to travel the world with his teacher.
Sakura was added to create love triangle.
Land of Wave arc is more or less how Naruto was supposed to be like. Chunin Exams was also editorial suggestion, but Naruto seeing Gaara as dark mirror of himself, just as he saw Zabuza as something he does not want to become, even if it means being considered shit ninja, is straight from how the series were supposed to be.
It's interesting to note that Kakuzu would actually fit as one of such Part 1 opponents, if his backstory would actually be used.

So the eventual collapse of Narutos quality was indirectly due to the editorial suggestions? Fuck man the firstarc was my favorite they should have kept it that style

I always wonder how strong Haku would've gotten had he survived and gotten the chance to train and get stronger.

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Do editors also ruin LNs i wonder

I think it's fair to say that it was more than just editorial pressure. Kishimoto was close to framing this as a gag manga, and was convinced to move away from that. He didn't really have a lot of concrete direction from the get go, and it's pretty apparent that some of the editorial direction was good (leading into the first arc, adding Orochimaru) but the combination of fatigue, aimlessness, and complacency steered him away from his strong start.

Probably not by much. The jutsu was very situational and could be countered if you understood how it worked. Main attack used projectiles which rarely ever works on anyone above genin. Not to mention they don't have any special ability like poison or chakra damage etc. It's just a death by 10k cuts attack. Unless he completely changed his whole fighting style, I wouldn't see him progressing any further than he had.

The Akatsuki doesn't seem to recruit unless members die off or quit.

Was killed by a bunch of Randy's with farm tools all so he could stab their fatty boss.

This nigga was the only one who felt like a real ninja in the whole goddamn story.

guy was crazy strong, named most op character by madara himself and nearly killed him too