Was he a tragic character?

why didn't he just throw a dinner party for everyone at akatsuki put cyanide into the food?

Everyone questions why Orochimaru was forgiven, but Orochimaru actually managed to set the Akatsuki back slightly prior to the war, unlike Itachi. And they didn't even ask Oro to do it.
Itachi's a joke.

Good character. Shit anime. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>Somewhere out in the world, Kishimoto realizes this mistake and makes it so that Orochimaru only left the Akatsuki because of more Itachi mind control
Thus is the right of the Uchiha, to rewrite history to come out on top

It's a tragedy that the nuruturds haven't gotten the message and aren't permanently banned forever from Yea Forums along with their terrible series

Uchiha clan was going to start a civil war with Konoha. This was going to put Konoha in a really bad, so Itachi killed them.

Absolutely

Cry some more.

All the Uchihas are tragic since no one gives a fuck about them anymore after Naruto shit on all three(Obito, Madara, and Sasuke) of them and basically rules over one of the three and his slut daughter.

It gotten to the point Itachi sold his clan out because he thought they sucked and basically went to be a pawn of the leaf outside of the leaf knowing about it, Kishimoto really hammered in that uchihas are all failures, and made those Gary Stu senju and kages the gods of the world.

Actually, Itachi asked Obito (whom he believed was Madara) to help him with Massacre, but insisted on killing the kids, despite Obito offering to do it for him.
All Obito planned to do was to goad Uchiha Clan into performing the coup. It was merely a side project to him.

Literally just ripped from Snake eater
Narutards are retarded

desuarchive.org/a/search/image/VG_vqrI-qjc3NqerHZgamg/

Fuck off Narutard

That's dumb

Obito was the coolest guy!

Keep in mind that a civil war between Konoha and the Uchihas would be an excellent chance for any other village to invade them, ninja nations were in war, duh.
That was the mayor reason for the massacre.

That’s why Part 1 is better.

How would wiping out the strongest clan in Kohona put them in a worst position than them taking power?

>Literal child murderer
>had no qualms about blowing up his sensei's newborn
>forgiven just like that
Can't believe how bad of a writer kishi really was

*put them in a better position

At least he actually died instead of getting away with everything like Orochimaru and Kabuto.

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He was a relatively poorly-written character.

I guess character consistency isn't particularly important for the demographic, but it would've been nice if Kishi had made an effort.

In fact, a lot of his characters didn't really have proper motivation for their actions. And those that did apparently have reason to be villainous turned their worldview on a dime because Naruto was so kawaii or some shit.

I think Zabuza might've been the last consistent character that was written in Naruto.

Konoha suspected (correctly) that an Uchiha was responsible for the Kurama attack, and the death of the Fourth Hokage. But they had no idea of Obito, so they just went up and blamed the entire clan, thinking a rotten apple spoiled the rest of the bunch. The Uchiha were pretty much segregated and ostracized by the village. Uchiha were rightfully upset with their treatment and wanted to boost their reputation by replacing the people that attacked them. Three of the four elders wanted to kill the Uchiha. Hiruzen wanted to save the Uchiha, saying that this is all because of their poor treatment and not because they are actually evil.

Itachi wanted to avoid war and conflict, and he saw the bitter rivalry between Senju and Uchiha as the start of even more conflict that can hurt many innocent people. Itachi chose Senju over Uchiha because he believed in the Will of Fire as the better option for peace.

That’s because he died.

Orochimaru and kabuto were saints compared to obito, and in the end he got his happy pedo ending

Because the Uchihas were fucking crazy and would've started turning on each other if they were in power.

This guy is a retard, don't read it.

You're delusional, nice headcannon.

Orochimaru literally killed 59 babies by experimenting on them with Hashirama’s DNA, with Yamato as the only survivor.

Listen man, Uchihas are fucking nuts.

Based, the only way uchihas can grow in power is by killing their own brethren and harvesting their eyes
cringe and uchihapilled

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Whatever you gotta tell yourself, man

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He fucking killed Hiruzen.

This, it's baffling how these characters fell to obscurity one by one in the fans eyes on pixiv and now are into kumo. Only Sarada remains and she's used to promote uzumaki domination fetishes.

Water under the bridge.

Meh. Sauce just needed to get the shit beaten out of him, Itachi was never really a bad guy and Obito got talk no justu'd so it wouldn't have been that bad

>>Literal child murderer
Which children he actually killed? Because canon states that the one who killed Uchiha children was Itachi, who insisted on being the one to do it, despite Obito offering to relieve him of that.
Also, his kill count on Uchihas makes him the coolest guy in Tobirama's eyes too.

He brought it all onto himself. Yes, he was indeed somewhat of a victim of the circumstances, but he never liked or believed in the Uchiha anyways. He was a Konohafag that couldn't get this Will of Fire stick out of his ass. Calling the Uchiha out for their obsession with tradition and organization, but being all the same.
Like, do you understand that he had his best friend Shisui get his eye stolen and practically forced to commit suicide by Danzo, yet he STILL followed him and NEVER showed even a hint of negative emotion towards Danzo? He was a fucking obedient dog of Konoha, without even analysing the moral rightness of the orders. Literally a perfect shinobi from Dazo's wet dreams.
However, a perfect shinobi is not the most innocent and kind characteristic you can get. If only he rebelled against Danzo, if only he managed to kick him out of power and make peace lover Hiruzen talk things out, they could have negotiated it all, or at least only kill the leaders, not the entire clan. However, because of the war fucking him up, he was disconnected from the surroundings, gave up under another type of stereotypes and propaganda, the Will of Fire one.
>"But REEEEEE why didn't Sasuke after learning the truth respect Itachi's will, go back to Konoha and protect everything Itachi tried to? I don't understand, this is such a shit writing!!!!"

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>Knew about the man he suspected is Madara for a while
>Didn't told anyone about him, despite the fact that it's clear that he fans the flames of rebellion through a SINGLE Uchiha Clan member, so he could make at the least his father realise that someone is goading them into that
>The knowledge of Madara would make Hiruzen and Danzo realise that the real threat is out there and that they were suspicious of the wrong people and should work with them to deal with the problem
The fact that this is supposed to be the guy who had Hokage-level wisdom at age of 7 shows that while Itachi was wise enough to realise that village is more important than the clan, he made Intelligence his dump stat.

That’s because Kishi isn’t smart.

I highly doubt Danzo would understand that, he was just Tobiramapilled and needed one reason.
The problem is that not even fucking once it occured to Itachi: "Oh wait, my bestie killed himself because the someone from the village government disliked his peaceful way of resolving issues without a blood fest. Maybe that's a very shitty government guy and I should try to dethrone him instead of killing my entire family?". If he tried even fucking once to not be a silent passive dog, investigate on Danzo a bit more and expose him, if had a bit of Sasuke's "revolution stick" in his ass and only interacted with the Hokage, literally everything would have worked out. But no, muh Will of Fire, honor and dehumanizing orders are all that matter. Zabuza would shit on him

Based child killer Zabuza.

Doesn’t matter.

it was tragic he wasn't just a murderous asshole.

Itachi set them back during the war when he undid edo tensei, retard. The edo tensei that Orochimaru's own disciple was using.

>Prior to the war
>During the war
>retard

Yes. In other words, at a more crucial moment. But he also did set them back prior to the war when he claimed he couldn't beat Jiraiya and didn't bring back the Kyuubi after the Chuunin exams.

In other words, Itachi did nothing of value as an actual spy, and only did so once not only the rest of the world was against the Akatsuki and he had been defacto removed from their ranks by force.

And after using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi and Sasuke, with a very apparent debilitation from it on Kakashi alone, and further needing either Susano-o or Amaterasu to escape the summoning, Itachi wasn't stretching not being in a condition to fight Jiraiya. Even factoring in the apparent difference in power level post time skip, they we're already at a decisive disadvantage, with more back up clearly on the way. Kisame didn't argue, neither of them felt like they had the advantage in that situation, even together. "Oh shit, we're legit fucked and can do this later anyway" isn't sabotage

Fuck off cunt. That's the real answer, whether you like it or not.

It is alwaus an Uchiha who starts shit.
It was Indra the very first Uchiha who chimped out and started a war with his brother that lasted for god knows how many centuries.
Uchihas are canonically proven to be buttfuck crazy tards that can start a massacre if they experienced a bad day.
These are the guys who started killing each other for god knows what kind of retarded uchiha reason, because they found out they could bend reality with their eyes.
When the kyubi escaped and had giant sharingan for eyes, konoha had every reason to keep them under surveilance since the only Uchihas as far as anyone knew where the Uchihas from the leaf.
But instead of just keeping cool and show their loyalty by showing they have nothing to hide, they start planning a fucking coup, because nothing proves your loyalty and innocence to the goverment more than starting a fucking coup.
No race has ever started more shit than the Uchiha, almost everything bad that happend can be traced back to those red-eyed retarded inbred rednecks.

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"You're only ASSUMING that an Uchiha mind controlled the Kyuubi and basically assassinated the Hokage! It could have been anyone! Now we're going to have a hostile take over!"
>It was, in fact, an Uchiha
>Danzo realizes that they're so unstable that they can be turned on one another and the majority of the problem will solve itself
It's actually pretty impressive

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Itachi is a fucking monster, but he was retconned to be a good guy.

The way i see it, Kishimoto is a fucking hack

>nothing of value
I just said he delayed the capture of the Kyuubi. If they captured the strongest jinchuuriki pre-time skip the Akatsuki's plan would've succeeded. Based on what he did Pain had to ultimately go to Konoha himself, where he died.
>defacto removed from their ranks by force.
He was not. He was revived by edo tensei to be part of their ranks during the war. If memory serves, Tobi didn't even know Itachi was against the Akatsuki at that time, all he knew was Itachi didn't want Sasuke to meet "Madara", which he knew since the beginning (prior to the Uchiha clan massacre he tells Tobi to keep his hands off Sasuke).

>with more back up clearly on the way.
There was no backup on the way. You're getting things mixed up. When Itachi comes face to face with Kakashi in Konoha, that's when more backup is on the way. The attempted abduction takes place in another town where Jiraiya would've been the only opponent (it was during the search for Tsunade, but before they were anywhere close to finding her, so no one would've come to help him). Itachi and Kisame combined could've killed him and taken Naruto.

Don’t worry about. Now Obito helped in the massacre too.

>retconned
The way I see it, you're a fucking retard. Itachi freeing Sasuke from Orochimaru is a direct reference to Japanese mythology. Susano'o was being foreshadowed since part one. I'm not going to say Itachi was always intended to be a good guy, but Kishi clearly left the door open for him to potentially be a good guy since the beginning.

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No, he didn’t.

I think your IQ might be immensely low if you think him slaughtering his whole clan was "dumb". Oh and nice retort by the way, very intelligent. Its completely explained in the show over and over why what itachi did had to be done and I'm not going to bother writting it because someone responding with low IQ words like 'hurrr dumb' probably wont understand it which is actually quite sad

Uh yeah. Just because you are referencing mythology or history, doesn't make you a good person.
In 1945, Hitler ordered the Nero Decree, ordering his men to burn down German infrastructure.
This is, of course, a direct reference to Roman history, you know, the emperor Nero and the great fire of Rome.

Does that make Hitler a good guy?

How was Susano'o foreshadowed? Because Itachi had a health issue? Oh wow...

>He delayed the capture of the kyuubi, which wasn't immediately necessary by legit getting outplayed
No
>He was still considered one of them if memory serves
Memory does not serve, Obito knew. Remember the completely useless Amaterasu trap? He wasn't any different than the revived kage and pain; just a tool
>There was no back up
Guy literally shows up a second later, with more on the way. Itachi was worn out, and Kisame feels just as against a wall as Itachi. They weren't going to win like that, not because they weren't stronger, but because of the situation itself

>How was Susano'o foreshadowed

If you don't even know then maybe don't type up an entire stupid fucking post up and instead ask. In mythology, Susano'o is the brother of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Sound familiar, retard? We see in part one that the Mangekyou has powers called Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. That implies it will have a power called Susano'o, we just don't know what it is yet. In Japanese mythology, Susano'o is said to have defeated Yamata no Orochi, the eight-headed serpent dragon. Sound fucking familiar yet? So we have:
>itachi's actions drive sasuke towards orochimaru
>itachi reveals tsukuyomi and amaterasu, implying susano'o will be the next power
>200 chapters later itachi frees sasuke from the snake when susano'o defeats an eight-headed serpent

>b-b-but kishi is a hack! i don't understand it that means he's a hack!
Imagine being so fucking low IQ you can't understand a manga intended for 8 year olds.

>"No"
Not an argument
>Obito knew
Wrong. I already explained the Amaterasu trap, what is wrong with your reading comprehension? All Obito knew is that Itachi didn't want Sasuke to meet him, which he already was aware of since they agreed to work together to take out the Uchiha clan. This doesn't tell Obito that Itachi has betrayed the Akatsuki.
>Guy literally shows up a second later
Are you capable of reading more than a sentence fragment? Holy shit I've never seen someone speedread a post before. Yes, Guy shows up. That was during the encounter with Kakashi where I already mentioned there was backup. That has nothing to do with Jiraiya, there was no backup when Itachi and Kisame planned to take Naruto away from Jiraiya.

Don't reply to me or my son ever again

I accept your concession.

Itachi was confused teen, just another Senjew's victim. Actually, the Uchiha clan was doomed the moment they believed Senjew lies and betrayed their heroic leader who tried to warn them. Uchiha wanted free mokuton houses and cheap dango, so they voted for Hashirama, the only good Senju, but they were too stupid to understand that Tobirama, famous Uchiha hater, racist tyrant and necromant, next in line, and he will demand complete submission from them. So first Uchiha were made police dogs to drive them away from central functions of the village, then they were blamed for Kyubi's attack and were moved to outskirts of village, their police budget was cut, they became a fucking joke. And only then they begin to realize that Madara was right, but it was already too late. Since Tobirama Senjews began to brainwash the young Uchihas with the will of fire doctrine, and at the time of the coup there were two Uchiha teens obedient to the Senjew government who betrayed their clan for those tree-hugging faggots and their dogs Shimura and Sarutobi. Madara was right, and Senjews are base, whoring people, that is, no people of Sage, and their boast of lineage and law must be accounted as filth.

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the deal with the latter half of shippuden, esp during kage summit, is that sasuke’s quest for vengeance is constantly portrayed as something irrational, and then subsequently, his desire to hold culpable the perpetrators for the massacre against his clan is seen as the actions of a mad man. and then his desire to completely upheave the system is also seen as something that can only come from a place of hatred, and darkness, and madness, and etc etc. fandom generally agrees with this view, and most people think that sasuke should have just forgiven konoha for the massacre of his clan much earlier. and this is, i think, where i disagree with a lot of people. for a lot of reasons.

The argument would be that it was incidental that they were outmatched, but I guess that's a bit much on the subtext for you
> He only is going against them slightly, Obito might not realize...
Meming at this point
>Guy was only around in the Kakashi fight
Yeah, he doesn't accidentally attack Jiraiya after because the village wanted to stop 2 S Ranks going after Naruto, which both Itachi and kKisame expected. That definitely didn't happen.

i’m not saying that you hate genocide victims hurr durr my 6 gorrilion hurr durr if you don’t like sasuke—don’t like him, like him. i don’t give a shit. but this is my attempt—to explain why, fundamentally, i disagree with kishimoto’s nationalistic writing of naruto and why sasuke being put down as someone whose ideas of justice and vengeance are misguided simply do not make any sense to me.

disclaimer though: i don’t think kishi’s that smart, and at its core, naruto is just a shonen. pretty shittily written, but with some really compelling relationships written, but still: shonen. i don’t think kishi, when he put pen to paper decided that “i’m going to write a story about nationalism and why seeking justice, vengeance, and holding people accountable—even if the people responsible are the government or the village itself—is wrong and revolution is always wrong” i think he just wanted to write “friendship! peace! lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya!” but we’re still here. whether he intended to or not, masashi kishimoto did write a story about why going against your country, your government, even if they officially sanctioned a massacre on your clan to prevent a coup, is bad. everything that sasuke embodies—revolution, justice, vengeance—is supposed to be seen as bad. his refusal to give in to the desires of his friends—who want him to give up his quest for vengeance—is supposed to make us think it’s bad. and he succeeds! obviously! it’s naruto’s story!

and genuinely i cannot even begin to agree with any of this. yes, i think sasuke should have gone after itachi to seek some sort of closure as to why his brother killed his clan—but i also think naruto and sakura and kakashi should have offered to help instead of trying to dissuade him. actually no kakashi should have helped idg why the dude was like “ya shikamaru i’ll help u get your revenge” but to sasuke he was like “no revenge bad yes i know your brother killed your mom, your dad, your cousins, your grandparents, that little kitty you liked to pet but revenge bad now i tie you to this tree ok silly? kakashi out” but anywhoooooo we’re not here for that. my main issue will and always will be as to why kishimoto wanted sasuke’s desire for revolution and change and so on and so forth to always look bat-fucking-shit insane. i don’t get why he was so eager to make it look irrational, why the uchiha clan massacre was built literally on fucking eugenics, why kishimoto looked at this and thought, “yes…a group of people that is genetically predisposed to be evil and sidelined and oppressed and shit and YES i will have them all massacred and if sasuke wants to see any sort of justice happen well tough luck because revenge BAD”. i cannot buy it! i cannot! i don’t understand how i’m supposed to see like, this genocide survivor, and his desperation for justice and to change the world, and think he’s evil! i know other people are doing great it, but fundamentally i empathize with him too much to disagree with him except when he’s like, i don’t know, trying to kill people. and even then, there’s a direct correlation—revenge=violence on bystanders. the message here is clear, even if kishi didn’t intend it; regardless of how much hurt you’ve suffered because you were part of a group of people that were unjustly treated, you must never seek responsibility.

and it is such a jarringly despondent message, such a painful thing to hear, or realize, even implicitly, among all the talks of peace and love and understanding. in boruto, nobody is held culpable for the massacre—especially not konoha, nor the elders. nothing has changed. sasuke is now “good” because he turned over a new leaf and stoned and said nah fuck the revolution (: and it hurts, too, because so many people buy into it. it’s fiction, obviously, but this sort of thing is what influences people. makes them thing, yes, genocide is perfectly fine if the group being massacred is “evil”. if they’re inferior, genetically. there are twitter threads and stuff going around about how the uchihas deserves to be murdered, every single one of them. it’s fiction, of course it is, but this sort of thing is also very harmful and very hurtful to read. there is no happy ending—it’s hopelessly bleak. sasuke’s desire for justice or change to the hokage system is never realized, because he accepted naruto’s ideals. don’t change the status quo—change yourself, for the sake of peace. and that’s the underlying message of naruto, isnt it? give everything up, even justice, even your life, for the sake of peace for a village that doesn’t really give a shit about you.

and that’s why i feel so, so, badly for sasuke. i empathize with him—he’s a genocide survivor, looking for responsibility from people who act like that whatever they did was completely and utterly justified—which was essentially ethnic cleansing in the name of peace. shoutout to naruto for inadvertedly being nationalist-Konoha- propaganda

Itachi is one of 3 Uchihas ever in history that gets a Senju pass. He should feel proud.

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>itachi asked obito
Yeah, he was counting on it. Obito was going around killing any powerful kekkei genkai users, the uchiha were bound to be the next so he used the situation in the leaf and tricked itachi it was under his control.

It had to be done. It was them or us.

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What happened to the senjus? After tobirama did they just disappear or change their name? Also arent the uzumaki related to senju iin which case having the 9 tails jinchuriki be an uzumaki woman married to a senju would be kinda incestuous

If Itachi was always intended to be a good guy why would he lie and tell Sasuke that he had to kill his best friend to obtain the Mangekyo? Itachi knew this wasn't the case seeing as he never did such a thing and had it, that's a pretty fucked up thing to convince your supposedly beloved brother to do.

They died out because Princess Tsunade was a permavirgin.

Fuck off you liberal

He knew sasuke would seek power by any means necessary and saw it fit perfectly with his plan to have sasuke kill him to be a hero to the village. But sasuke flat out says he wont do it “itachis way” and hell aquire power in his own way as early as orochimarus hideout arc

Because if some would be left alive, they get mangekyou sharingan and go berserk mode like Sasuke did.

I think this happened. In no real way one could make killing elderly, children and making little brother hatefag justified

That doesn't answer my question at all.

>he delayed the capture of the Kyuubi
When was this said?

>i feel so, so, badly for sasuke. i empathize with him
Agreed, people call Sasuke edgy or insane, but what else could he do?
His family and clan were wiped out by his own brother, and Itachi used Tsukuyomi on him to make him revive the experience in order to fixate him on revenge, Sasuke was practically brainwashed by genjutsu master and in very young age. After killing his brother he realized the culprit was his own village, so wanting to redirect all that hate on new target was just normal. And of course he thought about revoltion, because current shinobi system fucked up his life pretty bad. Sasuke was going to become a dictator and personally make world a better place, but Naruto suggested that he do it with him and all Konoha. Sasuke should have agreed with the condition that the elders guilty of the Uchiha massacre will be condemned, but he didn't. Trully, after all the shit that he've been through it's a miracle that he stayed more or less stable and reasonable.

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>I just remembered something....my brother cried that night!
Absolute dog shit writing, well done.

The circumstances could've been different. Itachi could've battled Orochimaru thus fulfilling the mythology part and still be evil. Him 'killing' Orochimaru via some mythos doesn't actuallt mean he was supposed to became a good (coolest) guy.

Extremely, extremely based
Let's just remember how cringy moments like pic related(sorry for shit pic) were. Kabuto actually having a point, but naaah, our forgiving true hero Itachi is so right, Kishi probably jerked off while drawing and writing his words

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He was indeed quite a tragic character, the fact that such a genius was wasted on Uc*iha was quite the tragedy

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>What happened to the senjus?
They probably became nobles at the daimyo court, giving others the opportunity to die for the will of fire. The clans subordinate to them bear military service, and a Senju just get money, so a useless bitch Tsunade can lose fortunes or get a prestigious position at any time simply because she is Senju

It's almost scary how he was right about absolutely everything.

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Based Madara

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To be fair, this actually was foreshadowed. Not the crying part, but this missing scene, because in the long flashback we were never shown Itachi wearing his protector on the side, like we were in the Forest of death. I was wondering about that and then just thought it was an inconsistency, but it actually wasn't

True, which is why I said it left the door open, not that it was definite. However, given that Sasuke was to be Orochimaru's body it's more likely that it was supposed to turn out this way than simply Itachi kills Orochimaru, Itachi remains evil, and Sasuke is not part of it. Yamata no Orochi required a human sacrifice every few years, which is just like Orochimaru requiring a new body every few years.

Best shinobi, best kage, best character.

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Just when I was finding so manga pages a few minutes ago I again saw the comments shitting on Sasuke about "being tired of his boring edgy insanity" and whining how he doesn't have any goals(literally what) or is constantly switching between the goals(wow, people receive nex info and based on it change motives, who would have thought!)
Literally everyone hated on Sasuke for not being like Naruto. Truly a pleb filter character

So did the clans not really marry into each other before? How is there no half uchihas running around during Naruto?

> making little brother kill his best friend and somehow spins it like it's a good thing

They also can't understand sasuke either in any way they have no idea why? well, they never had their parents lying dead in front of them as itachi (your brother) stands over them and then attacks you. how old was sasuke again during that time? yeah thats what i thought bitch
dont talke shit about sasuke when you cant relate or understand him in anyway just as pein said you cant understand someone unless you have experienced the exact pain and people will just throw random and poorly inferred things about what sasuke is fuck off

And then they will try to reason by saying Naruto had it worse because the dreaded swing

You know what would be the better way of handling Itachi while still having the brocon hero part? Make Danzo actually lie to him and try to kill him and Sasuke after the Uchiha massacre. Have Itachi get disappointed in shit Konoha and make him join Akatsuki out of genuine desire. Though it would require changing his and Sasuke's relationship and dialogue a bit, but who cares, "kill your bf" never made sense anyway

>hurrr naruto was alone the whole time since birth and people called him names and wouldnt c with him durrrrr
It gets old

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associate with **

>one of 3 Uchihas ever in history that gets a Senju pass.
Those Uchihas were indoctrinated by the will of fire, manipulated and exploited by dirty Senjews. Itachi was groomed by Danzo since graduation, and I don't even want to think about methods which were used by Tobirama to make Kagami loyal to him and the village. Poor Kagami was Danzo's friend, saved his life few times, and then this old fuck killed his descendant Shisui for eyes. This were rewards for their loyalty: Shisui was killed, Itachi was forced to kill his clan and then live like criminal and Kagaimi died young. Fuck this "Senju pass".

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Well.... they were still Uchiha.

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Yes, Uchiha. And one Uchiha is worth hundreds of Senju, each Uchiha have great potential. Just Obito was enough to start a world war and kill half of the united shinobi's military forces. The Uchiha clan will be restored, and the new avenger will destroy Senjews and their dogs in memory of Uchiha massacre.

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This kind of thinking is what will erase Uchiha existence completely.

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Your “new dog” is slobbering over honorary Senju cock. She also knows nothing of the history of the Uchiha, and when she does she’ll be more inclined to side with the will of fire.

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Because he got popular so Kishimoto had to retcon him from a psychopath to a good guy all along.

He killed one of Itachi's teammate.

What was the 3d chess move by good guy Itachi, torturing his brother, broke his arm and tell him to kill his best friend?

Tsukuyomi was his way of incapacitating enemies without killing them. He didn't know Kakashi and Sasuke would be laid up in bed for weeks and only Tsunade could cure them. I don't know about breaking his arm. For telling Sasuke to kill his best friend, he wanted Sasuke to have the Mangekyou so when he came to kill Itachi he would get the eternal Mangekyou and be able to defend himself against Tobi. Instead he only got the regular Mangekyou and needed Tobi to give him Itachi's eyes to get the eternal so he fucked up there too. In part one, Itachi fucks up and pushes Sasuke to Orochimaru. In part two he fucks up and pushes Sasuke to Tobi.
Keep in mind these are plans he made when he was 17.

>Tsukuyomi was his way of incapacitating enemies without killing them. He didn't know Kakashi and Sasuke would be laid up in bed for weeks and only Tsunade could cure them.
Uhhh, pretty sure he did. He straight up could have used less traumatizing shit for Tsukuyomi too. And he can sort of be forgiven with Kakashi since he had a much smaller window for error and Kakashi was plenty good at breaking out of genjutsu, but pretime skip Sasuke would definitely have been restrained with a powerful, non Tsukuyomi genjutsu.

It's actually 0D chess, Kishimoto didn't know Itachi was going to be a good guy and made it up later.

"What if I just make a scapegoat character that was behind everything and everyone listened to because because, and just ignore the lapses in logic required to make it work?"

Did you know that not a single named Uchiha obtained their mangekyo by killing their best friend? That includes Itachi. This is why we're pointing out how retarded it was of Itachi to tell Sasuke to do that when going through a traumatic experience is all it takes.

How the fuck is he gonna tell him "go experience a(nother) traumatic incident"?

what a "hero" and true Hokage that Itachi was

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A better question is why he didn't just use Tsukuyomi to make Sasuke see Itachi being the Griffith to Nurutu's Caska. That'd probably have gotten his eyes to digivolve, even if it fucked him up in a myriad of other ways.

You're right, better tell him to kill his best friend who will almost certainly be of the leaf, thus labeling him a rogue ninja that is to be killed on-sight. Great plan.

So, when is Madara going to come back to life and give the Shinobi system its just desserts?

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Itachi was a crazy bitch.
Obito and Danzo literally tried to stop Itachi, but he wanted to have his way with kids and older women.

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>17 year old who killed his parents at age 13 doesn't have the best laid plans
w-what!? how dare he be a complex and flawed human being!

>Complex
>Itachi

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the leaf planned on killing Sasuke too, Itachi had to negotiate and stay alive so Danzo wouldn't put his senjew hands in Sasuke

>five years later people still don't understand his motives
Even if he's not objectively complex he's still too complex for this board.

His "hate me" lines and initial pose were both cliche good guy pretending to be a bad guy things.

>five years later he's still poorly written for the sake of shock value
Fixed that for you

The scene where He murdered his parents was unironically sad

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>shock value
Based retard missing all the signs. 12 year olds understand this, it's not hard.

That makes sense, the only person who could control the Nine tails power besides a person it was implanted into is a Uchiha, because of their above average genju skills

He's a blatant villain twisted and contorted into a tragic hero

>Shock value as the author's intent foreshadowing are mutually exclusive
You were clearly the intended audience, I'll say that much

And you clearly weren't since you're obviously too stupid to understand it.

lmao.
imagine not seeing this coming sincr the first part.
literally a manga for kids, about ninjas, where they accomplish missions regardless of their feelings.
kishimoto said he was planning from the very beginning to have Itachi be a tragic hero.
you're right, even for a shonen this for too complicated for your average ret/a/rd as you can see above

>If you don't think itachi's character is well written, you just don't understand him :^)
Sasuga

I guess this is the series where Shikamaru's supposed to be smart for doing fuck all above simple logic

Yes but it's also the series where Yea Forums thinks Naruto is a retard who only has one move when he regularly uses strategies better than Shikamaru would come up with. All because no one stops to jerk him off every time he outsmarts an opponent.

>if i post my copypasta-tier complaints about him in every thread and ignore all the refutations then he's poorly written
Go back to your isekai threads if you want to deny reality

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I mean, we're still on trying to see if you can figure out that an author can be seeking to establish shock value for the audience, in spite of still utilizing a degree of foreshadowing. Which you didn't even try to address, but just resorted to throwing a fit, so let's not pretend the ball's in my court.

Why were Naruto and Sasuke so fucking gay

Itachi realized something about his clan by listening to them each day. "Shit the Uchiha are evil aren't they? I have to get rid of them all for the sake of the village" but he made one mistake "Surely I can save just this one, he won't grow up to be evil and destroy the village"

He was wrong

No, we're still on the post before that, trying to see if you have any examples of being poorly written that haven't been explained a thousand times.

>didn't kill sasuke
what a faggot

Ah, so you just pretended you were hung up on my use of the word "shock value" because it was fun? I see.
But to answer how he's poorly written, he served absolutely no purpose as a spy within the Akatsuki at all, his entire interim reason to exist, and depending on what you take as canon helped fortify their ranks further, and committed egregious acts against Sasuke that went above and beyond rational thought. There's trying to get him to hate you so that Danzo doesn't think he could be a sympathizer, and there's what Itachi did; self-destructively mind rape him to the point of being comatose twice, beat the shit out of him, and tell him to murder someone who's a part of the leaf to get revenge at all costs.
That's not being "flawed." That's a lapse in the writer's logic. He was explicitly pushing Sasuke to go against everything Itachi wanted him to immerse himself in, brutally, with other characters merely being brought into the story to play scapegoat for him at a later date.
His entire character hinges on the contrast of what we're supposed to immediately be able to see as an audience and his actual personality post reveal, which is fine, but can only be excused by assuming that he had absolutely no idea what he was doing but wasn't about to slow down in the slightest. He wasn't just a smart person in an impossible situation like Kishimoto wanted him to be, he was a person that had to be actively seeking the worst possible outcome without limit, except he's also the second "coolest guy."
He was explicitly thought up for the before and after, but Kishimoto clearly couldn't connect the two with any expectation of consistency.

Based

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>Muh ultimate totsuka blade and Yata mirror that was truly what Orochimaru longed for all this time
Makes some great parallels to the QUALITY of Itachi's character

>self-destructively mind rape him to the point of being comatose twice
On the night of the massacre he needed his six year old brother to understand what happened, hate him for it, and actively work to come and kill him. If he didn't show him what happened there would be a chance his brother wouldn't believe it all (he's just a small child). Sasuke recovers just fine from this. The second time it was the same as incapacitating Kakashi, he needed his little brother to fuck off without killing him. How would he know that subjecting him to the same thing as when he was six would have a much worse effect the second time when he's 12?

>beat the shit out of him
He hit him only a handful of times in part one to show him he needs to become stronger.

>and tell him to murder someone who's a part of the leaf to get revenge at all costs.
He needs his brother to have the Mangekyou. The only way he knows of getting it is to experience significant trauma involving the loss of someone close. How is he going to achieve this? The alternative is orchestrating events so he returns to the village at some point, figures out who's closest to Sasuke when Sasuke is older and kills that person in front of him in a way that Sasuke actively experiences what happens but somehow nobody else from the village can do anything to prevent it. That's ridiculous, how the fuck is he going to do that? If he achieved that, THAT would be poorly written. So he simplifies it, he tells him to kill his friend because that's the only way he can think of for Sasuke to get Mangekyou Sharingan. This is 13 year old Itachi's solution. How is that not being flawed? The man to whom "Hokage-level insight" was ascribed and the rank of "ANBU captain" was assigned is just a fucking child who can't foresee every possibility. What else could he possibly have come up with to ensure a 6 year old Sasuke grew up and got the Mangekyou and came to kill him?

>On the slightest chance that my brother doesn't believe me, standing over the corpses of our mother and father and admitting it to his face, let's just torture his very mind so I can sleep soundly at night
If you insist in your heart of hearts that it doesn't take absolute insanity to believe this, Itachi's shown genjutsu that don't require furthering his own eventual blindness to do similar with less blatant long-term trauma. And if Itachi so much as bothered to use genjutsu against him in their final fight, he certainly should have expected a simple genjutsu to incapacitate pre time skip Sasuke that had been knocked out of his sharingan and was basically limp. However long he guessed Sasuke would take to get up from blatant overkill, which clearly partially stems from his control over his target's induced perception of time per Danzo, is really icing on the cake at that point.
>He needs his brother to have the Mangekyou
No, he really didn't. Having a semblance of a plan around it is one thing, but he did not explicitly need his brother to have the mangekyo. And you're skirting around the fact that his comment was literally to kill someone that would have to be from the village, pushing him all the closer to being exactly what Itachi feared he'd become. And that's where he's not just being flawed, but being completely insane once more; he wasn't just not seeing every possibility, he was shoving his brother right towards the worst one and doubling down on it with the most debilitating psychological damage tool he had at his disposal, that was even a detriment to his health, while also being entirely unnecessary. He didn't just miss the mark as any reasonable person would, he was actively doing nothing but harm with a gold star sticker put on it later saying that he tried his best.

>standing over the corpses of our mother and father and admitting it to his face
Sasuke's first reaction is "who did this" even seeing his brother standing over their bodies. He's six years old, I said that many times last post but I think it's not really registering with you how young these characters are. You can't expect them to act like 27 year olds (or however old the average Yea Forums poster is). He's a child, he's not going to believe that his big brother whom he looks up to killed their parents, that's beyond his ability to understand. No six year old anywhere would believe it without having seen it.
>long-term trauma
What trauma? Six year old Sasuke gets up moments after being Tsukuyomi'd. There's no reason to assume 12 year old Sasuke will be fucked up long-term by something six year old Sasuke survived easily.
>bothered to use genjutsu against him in their final fight
The genjutsu in no way incapacitates Sasuke in their final fight so I'm not sure why you think basic genjutsu would've worked before the time skip. In fact, in their final fight Sasuke even breaks Tsukuyomi so you literally can't conclude anything one way or another what illusions would or wouldn't work pre-time skip.

>he really didn't.
He did. He didn't trust Tobi to stay away from Sasuke as originally promised (and he was right) which is also why he lies and says Uchiha are all fratricidal maniacs, and that Madara in particular (whom he thought Tobi was) stole his own brother's eyes. He wanted Sasuke to have Mangekyou to defend himself against Tobi. That's why he gave him automatic Amaterasu when Sasuke didn't have his own.
>skirting
Like I said, who else could it be besides someone from his village? There's no other way he knows of to get Mangekyou Sharingan.
>shoving his brother right towards the worst
If not for Tobi Sasuke would've been welcomed back to the village as the hero who avenged the Uchiha clan, so not really. He very nearly got everything he wanted for Sasuke.

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Why was Obito going around killing those with kekkei genkai?

Can we all agree the biggest asspull Itachi ever did was Izanami?

No, because he explicitly says he's going to use Izanami at the start of his fight with Kabuto. An asspull would be if he was losing his fight with Kabuto and produced Izanami out of nowhere to save himself.

>Sasuke's first reaction is "who did this" even seeing his brother standing over their bodies.
Yes, that's actually a fairly respectable reaction in the context, even for someone older than 6. It does not somehow make Sasuke completely incapable of ever understanding that his brother did it, nor does being 6 do so, and doesn't make fucking Tsukuyomi the only way to get it across. You're taking a remarkable leap in logic there.
>What trauma?
Him laying on the floor, doubled over literally drooling? The near suicidal idiocy years of dealing with that pushed him to the second Itachi was mentioned? And in the manga, Itachi never specifies how long he puts Sasuke in the first time, and intended to talk to him after. He specifies 24 hours the second time. It's perfectly reasonable to expect that wasn't the same extent, especially when he made Kakashi perceive 72 hours in Tsukuyomi. And again, Tsukuyomi itself is unnecessary in the first place, and self destructive.
>The genjutsu in no way incapacitates Sasuke in their final fight so I'm not sure why you think basic genjutsu would've worked before the time skip.
Let me get this straight. Itachi actually bothered to try to use basic genjutsu on an immensely stronger and better trained Sasuke who was completely uninjured and had his fully developed Sharingan going, and yet he would have been stupid to use it on pre time skip Sasuke who was no longer able to maintain the sharingan and could barely move? Really?
>He didn't trust Tobi
Who he should have been planning to kill in the first place, if he was actually against the Akatsuki. Sasuke having to even deal with Tobi later should have been at best a worst case scenario.
>Like I said, who else could it be besides someone from his village? There's no other way he knows of to get Mangekyou Sharingan.
So yeah, Itachi actually wanted Sasuke to become a criminal and betray the village for power, and his whole shpeal later doesn't work. Good you agree.

Izanami and Izanagi themselves are both asspulls by their very nature.
>OH MY TIME REWIND EYE
>OH MY VISUAL GENJUTSU THAT AFFECTS SOMEONE WHO CANT SEE
What kind of bullshit is that?

he mind slaved the 4th Mizukage to do it as revenge by proxy for killing his waifu

Up there with totsuka blade and yata mirror. But Izanagi's explanation is just gibberish that doesn't even work in universe.

Why couldn't Itachi convince the elders the Uchiha were not behind the attack? He was the son of the leader of the Uchiha's so he was in the know. He knew it wasn't the Uchiha and yet he still choose to betray them. What a fucking piece of shit

'a genjutsu that rewrites the users reality', how the fuck did the sharingan go from copying jutsu to shit like that? MS should have been the final form of the sharingan so they'd at least eventually go blind.

>fucking Tsukuyomi
You keep saying this like it's a big deal, but it isn't. Baby Sasuke survived it just fine.
>Him laying on the floor
Momentary trauma which helps build Sasuke's hatred for Itachi.
>years of dealing with that
Dealing with what? He needed to deal with his parents being killed by his brother regardless. Using Tsukuyomi or not wouldn't change that, other than helping sell the whole "come kill me" thing, which was the entire point. It didn't worsen the ACTUAL trauma which is that he killed their entire clan. You might as well be saying "well he killed everyone Sasuke ever loved but why did he have to make fun of his shuriken jutsu? that's going too far!"

>Itachi actually bothered to try to use basic genjutsu
Did you miss the whole point of that fight? He wasn't trying to use genjutsu to beat him, that's the difference between that confrontation and pre-time skip. We know this because a) Itachi knew this was the final fight where he would die, so he wasn't trying to incapacitate Sasuke or otherwise defeat him and b) Zetsu was (unfortunately) narrating the entire fight. He was literally just fucking around with genjutsu.

>Who he should have been planning to kill in the first place, if he was actually against the Akatsuki
He thought it was Madara, he couldn't hope to defeat Madara in his wildest infinite tsukuyomi dreams. At best he wanted to keep Sasuke away from him.
>Itachi actually wanted Sasuke to become a criminal and betray the village for power
No, he wanted Sasuke to have the means to defend himself from "Madara".

That's literally not what an asspull is though. Izanagi was just a new power. Danzou was using Izanagi since the start of their fight and the whole fight was trying to analyze his power and figure out how to beat it. That's standard fare for "enemy has a new power", which is not an asspull at all. An asspull would be if Danzou was beating Sasuke and Sasuke suddenly used Izanagi to save himself despite no indication he's ever heard of or trained to use such a power. Izanami was already explained in .
An asspull is more like during Sasuke vs. Deidara when Sasuke had no chakra left but somehow summoned Manda and used genjutsu on him to save himself at the last second.

Deidara is the one who said Sauce had no chakra left. I guess your right about Izanagi and Izanami, they aren't asspulls, but they are beyond bullshit.

I think they would be fine if they weren't Sharingan powers. Sharingan was already OP as fuck but let's give it two more god-like abilities.

It is a big deal when it blinds Itachi, was way outside of a normal genjutsu, and did make Sasuke comatose for a while when as I pointed out the amount of time Sasuke experienced was likely higher the second time. It's unnecessary, and considerably so, but you pretend that it was reasonable just because.
>Momentary trauma which helps build Sasuke's hatred
Completely unnecessary
>Dealing with what?
Flashbacks? The completely lack of self preservation he showed the second Itachi popped up, like I pointed out but you glossed over?
>Did you miss the point
Do you still not want to admit that a genjutsu would have worked on Sasuke pretime skip without being able to maintain the sharingan? Because that's the actual point here, and it's true. You still insist that Tsukuyomi was an absolute necessity, and it's obviously not.
>Itachi, who was basically his own legend at that point, just decides that he has no shot at defeating Madara and the best way to protect Sasuke is to make him emotionally unstable, armed with tempting mangekyo powers but also more than likely still unable to deal with Madara if Itachi can't, completely without the back up of the village, or any emotional connections to keep him from being swayed
Broken logic
>No, he wanted Sasuke to have the means to defend himself from "Madara"
He states that he wanted Sasuke to be a hero in the eyes of the village. You yourself assert that Itachi explicitly wanted him to outright murder someone he cared about from the village solely for power, making him a criminal. You cannot rectify that. He's poorly written.

Izanagi would be fine if it wasn't considered a genjutsu that somehow rewrites reality. Izanami seems like it was only made for the sole purpose of letting the Uchihabros beat Snek Kabutops.

Tbf the "kid" was still a ninja. You're fair game as a shinobi

"I ruined your life and killed everyone you love, now make a best friend and kill him so that you can even hope to be on the same level as me for revenge"
"Wait, you were supposed to love your village and be loved by them. Where did I go wrong?"

Obito was literally in no danger, and he spears the kid through the chest with his hand.

>blinds Itachi
Irrelevant, he plans to die soon he doesn't need eyesight forever.
>outside of a normal genjutsu
He had no way to know which would work, he made a quick decision to use what he used when Sasuke was 6.
>amount of time Sasuke experienced was likely higher the second time
Needed to be higher because Sasuke was more experienced, just like it needed to be higher against Kakashi. How would he determine how much time is enough in an instant when he has other shit to deal with (Jiraiya/Naruto)?

>glossed over
You're the one glossing over what I'm saying. The thing he has to deal with, the thing that drives him crazy, is the death of his entire clan. Putting a brief Tsukuyomi on top of that is a complete non-issue. On the scale of things bothering Sasuke it doesn't register.

>Itachi, who was basically his own legend at that point just decides that he has no shot at defeating Madara
Yes. Exactly. Tell me you're not one of those who thinks Itachi could beat Madara. Madara was widely known as one of the strongest shinobi ever. Madara's name alone caused 4/5 kage to form the first global military alliance on the spot to stop one single man.

>and the best way to protect Sasuke is to make him emotionally unstable
You keep saying this like it's Tsukuyomi and "kill your friend" that caused his emotional instability. It's not. It's the fact that he killed his parents. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The damage is done, the die is cast, Sasuke is already guaranteed to be unstable because everyone he cares about was killed by the person who's supposed to care about him most. The absolute best Itachi could hope for is Sasuke kills him and Tobi doesn't get his hands on him. That's it.

>You cannot rectify that.
I can easily reconcile it, and I already have. Itachi wanted him to have Mangekyou. He's 13 years old and has the slaughter of his entire clan on his mind. It's the best he can come up with. Explain to me what you'd have him do.

>He plans to die soon
Yeah, whenever the hell Sasuke happens to get ready for it. And I guess he gave up on the spying bit early. Perfectly valid reason to do it, just because he can
>He had no idea normal genjutsu would work
Yes he did. Because both times Sasuke gets Tsukuyomi'ed, he does not have his sharingan activated. There is no question that normal genjutsu would work, and that Tsukuyomi was senseless overkill
>The thing he has to deal with, the thing that drives him crazy, is the death of his entire clan.
Which didn't take a playback loop of the actual act being forced into his brain to assert, which you don't seem to consider infinitely worse and completely unnecessary just because he was a 6 year old so he needs it to REALLY be etched into his brain. Good big brother
>Tell me you're not one of those who thinks Itachi could beat Madara.
Oh yes, Itachi's perception of being able to fight Madara is based on the actual absurdity of the real Madara that we got to see, and not Itachi's own ridiculous skill level, the fact that Madara would have to be legitimately ancient regardless of whatever's keeping him alive, and whatever showing he managed to see from Obito. If Itachi legitimately just up and assumed this was the Madara from history at his absolute peak and that he stood no chance, Sasuke getting a mangekyo shouldn't be making him feel any more secure.
>You keep saying this like it's Tsukuyomi and "kill your friend" that caused his emotional instability. It's not.
So why are you insisting that he absolutely needed to use Tsukuyomi on him twice for giggles? And you're not anywhere close to proving that Itachi "needed Sasuke to have the Mangekyo." Itachi was considered far more capable by Sasuke's age and based on your logic, he was fucked either way. All Itachi was doing was letting "Madara" have a fair guess at Sasuke's most vulnerable moment, which lo and behold he exploited.

>I already have
No, no you didn't. You just keep saying, "he needed sasuke to have mangekyo" and "how else?" to pretend you have a point, but he explicitly juggles two conflicting views; sasuke betraying the village for power and his own safety, and successfully integrating Sasuke within the village and putting the village before the clan. You can't have both, and you haven't come close to suggesting otherwise

>And you're not anywhere close to proving that Itachi "needed Sasuke to have the Mangekyo."
He all but stated it. Even in their final confrontation he's disappointed Sasuke doesn't have the same eyes as him. If it truly was bad writing he would've straight up abandoned the concept and wouldn't have addressed it at all. Instead he remains steadfast that his brother needs those eyes. What I'm saying is "Itachi needed Sasuke to have it". What I'm not saying is "Sasuke needed to have it". There is a difference.

I think I'm starting to see the issue you're having. You're fundamentally misunderstanding what it means to be poorly written. There's a difference between "character has a poor idea" and "character is poorly written". Sometimes this difference can be subtle, but it's a difference nonetheless. I'm not disputing at all that telling Sasuke to kill his closest friend is a poor IDEA. It absolutely is, because Sasuke of course can't reintegrate with the village if he betrays a comrade from that village. But it's not poor writing, because considering Itachi's state of mind, a child bearing an incredible burden who just wants his brother safe, it's absolutely the best he can come up with. He thinks Sasuke needs those eyes to be safe because Tobi's interested in him and Danzou wants him dead. This doesn't mean he needs Mangekyou Sharingan, I'm not saying that. It just means Itachi thinks he needs it, and it's not unreasonable that he thinks so.

>You can't have both
Correct. Which is precisely why Itachi's advice is contradictory. I didn't say he reconciled the two, I said I reconciled the two. I've reconciled it because this is how a child would deal with such a difficult situation where he has two almost orthogonal goals. It may not be the right way to deal with it, but it's reasonable to think it's what a psychologically fucked child could come up with.

I'm not confused with what you're saying. I get that Itachi says it. But the logic is flawed as I've stated and causes problems with the logic of your argument.
>You're fundamentally misunderstanding what it means to be poorly written. There's a difference between "character has a poor idea" and "character is poorly written".
Nope, I'm pretty good on poor idea in universe versus poorly written concept. The thing is, this doesn't come down to something complex like an internal conflict of ideology that only gets rectified through self discovery; it's specifically an obvious contradiction that you're jumping through hoops to come up with a scenario in which it's even slightly reasonable. I fully accept that Itachi had to be doomed to fail at this, but this contradiction simply doesn't fit into the narrative. It's poor writing.

It still doesn't make sense

Hell no. Forced as hell.

I am surprised you're still trying to reason with them

Rewatching Pain arc and holy crap why is it so fucking good? The absolute peak

because you have shit taste

I REALLY liked his speech to Sauce about how people are bound by their own reality and what they think is true and right, never knowing how wrong they could be.

He love peace too much. So Uchiha clan doesn't like peace. Only strong desire remain in this death battle. Itachi won but let Sasuke live, because fuck nice things.

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youtube.com/watch?v=soV13b8aqwc
Edgy kids must do edgy things to feel alive.

If you mean Pain vs Konoha arc, I was bored by it. But Jiraiya vs Pain was great. I hoped Yondaime would've been AL but oh well

He was one of the better characters in Naruto

How would they have possibly beaten this guy if they didn't have kakashi?

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He was the cutest guy.

The fzct no one gives a fuck about the uchiha clan anymore outside of the loli proves Kishi shitted on them hard.

Counter attacks