Why is kiritsugu so well liked in the fandom...

What the fuck does Kiritsugu's actions have to do with leftism?

People generally tend to like edgy characters who are doing bad stuff for "the greater good"

I mean the story beats it over your head that the way he lived his life was wrong and he died regretting almost everything he had ever done. You can recognize a characters flaws and understand that they’re not a good person and still like them

>tfw you will never be Kiritsugu

Except all I'm left with are his actions.

Not to mention hes one boring as fuck character to watch.

Like, I was rooting for Chamine to whip his ass in their final fight.

>He's an all around piece of shit with a completely flawed ideology
You answered your own question.

Based OP. Telling it like it is. I hope more people like you post on this board.

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>Why is kiritsugu so well liked in the fandom?
Because he's surrounded by even worse people barring Waver.

>He's an all around piece of shit with a completely flawed ideology that I couldnt sympathize with no matter how hard I tried.
youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

>Why is kiritsugu so well liked in the fandom?
Because he isnt Shiro

Not really. Kariya was a good guy at heart that went nuts, Kayneth did literally nothing wrong, Kotomine didn’t become an awful person until after the war, and Tokiomi was a prick but then Kerry ultimately did the same thing (prioritizing your goal over raising your child). Only the serial killer was worse

His actions were reprehensible, but the ideology for which he did them had an innocent and ideal kind of simplicity, iirc. His fans like him for his ideology. For them, he enacts the kind of idealised justice that his fans cannot because of real life constraints; through him, they vicariously get to experience this pure commitment to justice.

The reason you don't like him is because simply because you don't sympathise with his ideology. You've judged his actions hashly, and rightly so, but maybe you could tell us why you disagree with his ideology?

>it's a "Kiritsugu was wrong" thread
>it's a "he should have let the bee apocalypse happen to save his mommy" thread
>it's a "using the Grail to bring peace was a stupid idea because of reasons literally nobody knew about" thread
>it's a "why didn't he fight in the battle royale to the death more politely" thread

>kariya was acting like white knight to try and cuck Tokiomi; fails like all white knights
>kayneth got actually cucked
>tokiomi was a straight pimp; ganked because Kotomine couldn't 1v1
>Kotomine beat up Maiya multiple times and stabbed Iri, best friends with Gilgamesh; chad confirmed
>Kerry = literal bitchboy manchild

Waver at least grew up.

Serial killer was having fun, enjoying life and making new friends.
He is the only one that did things right.

Even if the grail worked, using it for world peace is still a dumb idea.

His ideaology is fine.

Works for Superman, Batman, All Might, Izuku etc etc.

My issue his how he act like a spastic child once reality doesn't allow for it.

And what justice?

Who was saved by his actions because he righted a wrong?

His whole career was based around killing people to save more people even if the ratio was 1001 dead to 1002 alive.

And he accepted this? Fuck him.

>Kariya was a good guy at heart that went nuts
No he wasn't. He was a shitty person who simply started to reveal his true colors.

>Who was saved by his actions because he righted a wrong?
Shirou, that's like the conclusion to his character.

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That's not justice.

That's just him acting like how he always wanted and saving someone in front of him.

>My issue his how he act like a spastic child once reality doesn't allow for it.
Which specific part of his actions was the spastic child's?
>Who was saved by his actions because he righted a wrong?
Presumably the people who didn't die thanks to him.
>His whole career was based around killing people to save more people even if the ratio was 1001 dead to 1002 alive.
>And he accepted this? Fuck him.
Clearly, 2003 dead people in total is a favourable outcome instead.

>people still unironically believe the “people reveal their true colors in situations of extreme duress” meme

I don’t know where this chuunishit psychology started but it needs to fucking die. There is not a medical practitioner on the face of the Earth that supports this idea, and someone like Kariya who had never committed any violent acts or beliefs suddenly lashing out would be a nightmare to prosecute against.

Then I'm sure that all the people who like him are only idealistic enough that they can ignore the real tragic impact of his acts. They see themselves in him. You must be a more realistic person and therefore more capable of avoiding his pitfalls.

Dude was already a creep before getting Sakura'd. He is literally introduced as a cuck giving presents to little girls in the park and being told by the mother to fuck off.
"Nice guys" like Kariya are always the worst kind of people.

he likes guns I guess

He is one of the most edgy shit characters I've seen. Just like Fate autists like them.

>He's an all around piece of shit with a completely flawed ideology
Your opinions are wrong. There we go, mystery solved.

Uhhh so do leftists.
American education is so fucking trash.

Relatively simple and impactful arc compared to those of Shirou (who has like, 3), Sieg, and Hakuno.

Passing by teenagers latched onto Zero because it had just the right amount of edge and "deep" philosophy.
oh my fucking god this spacing

>t. speedwatcher/secondary

Seething

Because he's BASED. He owns stupid libtards troll style!

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Learn to English first, ESL nigger

He's tedious to watch, behaved like a fucking manchild and had boring interactions. However, his cookie-cutter, edgy backstory was the thing that made me actively dislike him.

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>wanting world peace
Dumbass, that's not how the world works. Without any opposition, humanity would not evolve.

Ironic shitposting is just shitposting.

I don't think using it for world peace would be a dumb idea.

He was a fun character because unlike most anime characters, he never fucked around and usually followed the path of least resistance. Blowing up a hotel to assassinate a magus is the kind of thing you don't see much else of in other anime.

he's the best fate MC

Without him, Sumire the water bottle wouldn't be a thing. It's Shirley if you realize they're on an island, she has time magic- her ghouls supply her with the mana to use it when she previously couldn't- she'd just been born and skipped the usual process of DA evolution- the chances of survival were high as no big name executioners were on the scene, and the only way to escape was the sea- which she had to jump into- which given her immature state as a vampire would've resulted in her water affinity post submersion. This is further backed up by the fact Sumire is described as a Big sister figure (exactly what Shirley is) who drinks a lot, and her Vampire castle has nothing in it- even having a suicide pact with Rita Rozyn, (whatever the name was) who- if going by this theory is the exact opposite of the Now DAA Shirly/Sumire who never wanted to be a vampire in the first place- Rita is in the pact because she despises Sumire's rejection of her vampiric state, something that hurts her pride as a vampire, and because of Sumire's uniqueness thanks to her unique domain over water making her not only uncontested but also privy to great power obtainable from the ocean itself being wasted on her. Following this, Sumire's castle is just for purpose of security gained with her title as to not be targeted by hunters and their Ilk- she uses Rita as a surrogate for Kiritsugu's failure to kill her- She drinks heavily due to obvious depression caused during the island massacre. Infact, those questionable Other Dead Apostle images that show her looks awfuly similar to Shirley even.

t. hasn't read the VN

Based OP. Kiritsugu is shit, only manchildren would love him.

So? Why I should I be concerned with something as intangible as species wide evolution?

Jesus Christ, you are dumb.

I found him, along with the rest of Zero, to be tiresome.

Don't you have some 12 year old girls to be fucking, Mohammed?

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Not an argument faglord, stop thinking in chuunishit terms

The Rin saves her classmates episode was enough of a warning for me to skip the two backstory episodes in F/Z. The Waver/Alexander journey and Kariya's character design were the best the series had to offer.

Kariya had good intentions but he was ultimately moved by jealous of Tokiomi and his own selfishness of wanting to have Tokiomi's family for himself
Kayneth was an idiot who overestimated his own abilities and tought he was too strong of a Magus to lose. He didn't understand what a Holy Grail War truly was until it was too late.
Tokiomi was a fool who took a bunch of coward approach to the war and didn't realize his own allies were untreatable until he died. He was also a shitty father who gave one of his daughters too a guy that was obviously shady as hell.
Kotomine was born an evil person and nothing could have saved him. He would have ended up like that no matter what

Every Master on that war was either stupid, evil or both. At least Waver grew up and realized how much of an idiot he was.

>Kariya apologists are anime-only secondaries
Yikes.

He has guns and cheats on his wife som americans love him

Obsessed

That's not the OP but I 100% agree with him

Kariya is cuck. Why the fuck he should care about Sakura?

Thats simply not how the third magic works.
The grail is not a magic lamp, it cannot magically solve your problems.

no

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Too bad Kiritsugu never went to magus school.

He uses a gun and goes pewpew and that's very mature like me, an american.

>completely flawed ideology that I couldnt sympathize with no matter how hard I tried
That's the point. He's an enjoyable character because I know he's wrong and I can't sympathize with him. I can only pity him and watch as he brings himself closer to his own destruction. You don't have to sympathize with a character for them to be compelling.

>That's not justice.
It is because Shirou is practically the living embodiment of justice.
Heroic Spirit Emiya tells Shirou in their fight that "You didn't become a hero, you became the embodiment of justice. And Justice can be cruel."

Magus literally have one job, he should know.

He doesn't care about Sakura, he just wants to fuck her mom.

That poster is fourteen.

For the record, the Kiritsugu backstory stuff was much, much shorter in the LNs.

Also fuck this new captcha

He's a very well written and interesting character. I personally hate his guts and feel he got what he deserved. But I can understand why others don't feel quite as strongly.

Kayneth was a prick in general. And Tokiomi was a awful father that gave his daughter away to be raped by worms.

>new captcha

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>Tokiomi was a awful father
I'll never understand this meme.

He cute and hot

There's a new captcha where you need to write your name, date of birth and social insurance number.

He was flawed and made mistakes but at least he had a goal larger than himself and tried his hardest to achieve it. Tragic hero, sorta like Hitler. Kariya is Mosley, world would be a better place if worn but god damn the poor guy didn't even have a 1% chance

if he won*

>Gives one of his daughters to shady bug magic family.
>Hurr durr meme awful father.
Do you need an explanation on why abandoning your child is bad?

He didn't abandon her.
He did what was best for her.

>Best for her.
How is being raped by worms best for her?

It allowed her to inherit the crest of the Matou, made her incredibly powerful and allowed her to become a lesser grail.

Bad person good character.

>picked up loli war orphan
>groomed her into kuudere fuckdoll assassin

Literally the most based of based actions. People who channel their harem into productivity are the best, even if they're doomed to fail because of otaku being unable to relate (ie: Gendo Ikari)

Everything involving Maiya from her backstory to the cheating was retarded

Based and magus-pilled. Low bloods and commoners wouldn't understand.

How is utilitarianism flawed?

He ain't even really a magus.

Shutup Iris.

Except she received zero actual magecraft training and already had the potential to be an incredible magus. I don’t know how the fuck being a lesser grail is a good thing, even if it wasn’t possessed by literally Satan she would still die as a result of it

Because you end up realizing the endgame is that everyone on the planet should be killed.

Literally the last thing he does is visit Sakura, then give up hope and die. Would you quit it with your cynical headcanon that he never cared about Sakura? He wanted Sakura's mom and to be a father to the kids.

>My issue his how he act like a spastic child once reality doesn't allow for it.
I'm tired of retards not understanding why he broke down after encountering the Grail.
It's not because reality doesn't allow for his ideology to solve everything. He was using his sacrifice-centric ideology as a means to an end until he could use the Grail's wish-granting properties to create a world in which no sacrifices need to be made. He breaks because it is revealed that the Grail is false and his salvation cannot be granted to him, and all of the wrongs he has committed cannot be righted. The Grail, being imperfect and inherently corrupted, could only achieve the world peace he wanted to wish for by applying his methods of sacrificing the few for the many on a genocidal scale. It was not a solution. He knows his ideology is flawed, and is broken when the hope he was relying on to free himself from it fails to do so.
He is not broken because the Grail calls his ideology stupid.

Why did he cheat on his QT wife?

The pussy game be mad ridiculous my dude.

How?

You're aware that his ideology is not actually flawed, right? It's basically utilitarianism.

Now, this might suck for him. But it makes life better for everyone around him. When he shot down that plane, guess who benefited? EVERYONE WHO DIDN'T BECOME A FUCKING ZOMBIE.

When he wins the Grail, you know who benefits? The rest of the world. If Kiritsugu hadn't been the winner, the entire world would have fucking died. This is the uncomfortable issue most people don't want to unpack when it comes to Shirou and Kiritsugu: For the average Jack, life is really a lot better when you have men with martyr complexes running around.

The only way to eliminate human suffering is to eliminate humans. Haven't you ever watched a movie or two about well-intentioned rogue AI?

Because it's a slippery slope between utilitarianism and laziness.

Utilitarianism is a silly, childish ideology, user. You need to grow up and realize that reality does not allow such ideas to be realized effectively.

Sure, you could say that. But my argument is that if I was one of the guys in the city below, I would be thinking:

> "Wow, I'm really happy that Kiritsugu bit the bullet and blew up that plane."
> "Imagine if he'd tried to fight his way onto it and let the invincible bug-zombies escape hahahaha"
> "We would all be moaning and shambling by now"

You would, sure. What of the innocent people staying in the hotel he blew up? I'll admit that I just have an innate dislike for overly idealistic people, though.

If shit really hit the fan the world would solve the problem itself.

Sure, by unleashing human-shaped WMDs to kill everyone in the area. That's not really a step up, you know.

It's like dropping a nuke on the problem.

No, it's about maximizing human happiness while minimizing human suffering. Of course utilitarianism is stupid if you apply it via a stupid maxim.
The only core of the ideology's definition is that the consequences of actions are all that is required to judge the validity of that action. Of course, the value of these effects are judged by how much happiness and/or suffering they create. If an action creates more happiness than suffering, than from a utilitarian perspective, it was a good action.

Movie plots involved rogue AIs using "extreme logic" to determine that humans must be eliminated are always, bar none, retarded on that premise. I am actually offended that you tried to use them as an argumentative example.

He doesn’t really break down after the Grail is revealed to be a sham, in fact his utilitarianism ways are applied to the very end where he rejects his true desire of a peaceful life with his family in exchange for the rest of the world. It’s the fire and resulting death that completely breaks him down

How about the innocent people who get eaten by the Shadow in Heaven's Feel? Boy, I'm sure glad Shirou pursues the love of his life when she's responsible for a triple-digit body count. You know what I'll be saying as I get devoured by unspeakable, Cthnoic darkness?

> "AAAAAAHHHHHH IT'S EATTTTINNNNGGG MMMEEEEEEEEEE"
> "kill the fucking bitch shirou pleassseeee you bastarrrrddddd"

He waited until the hotel was evacuated besides Kayneth before blowing it up speedwatcher

>No, it's about maximizing human happiness while minimizing human suffering.

Okay everyone is dead except one guy attached to a heroin pump.

Her movements are that of an educated prostitute. That's all Sakura needs for the boy to abandon his ideals.

He was definitely a massive piece of shit that had the logic of a 10 year old.
>"If I nuke these people I can just wish them back to life later, right?"
>Grail outright tells him it can't asspull his wishes but instead must reach the goal via certain means and methods
>throws a complete tantrum when he learns this, to the point that he fucking backstabs his one and only partner (Seiba) by ruining her dream because he can't have his

Only because Iri convinced him to.

Would have been Kosher with killing everyone if it meant working towards the greater good.

This is why you're a fucking brainlet, and you disgust me on every level.
Human death is suffering. Even if you disagree and they're all euthanized with a drug that makes them dream their happiest dream as they die, far, far, far more net happiness can be accomplished over a period of time in which the human race can continue propogating and improving.

Arguing this with the most far-flung extremist examples imaginable is bad faith argumentation and relies on slippery-slope snowboarding to even reach this point. You are embarassing.

>she's responsible for a triple-digit body count
Angra Mainyu is, as well as Zouken who engineered the situation.

Blame Akira Toriyama for giving Kiritsugu bad wish-rule headcanon

For the last FUCKING time, the Grail was completely corrupted and would not grant any wish that does not result in complete destruction. Even if you didn't read the original VN which tells you what exactly happened to the Grail, context clues in Zero (the black mud, "Iri's" creepy smile, Angra Mainyu cursing Kerry) should give you enough information to deduce that the Grail is not normal.

If you measure the human race's successful via cumulative happiness why don't we all just build a giant planet sized human brain that can only pump dopamine? Checkmate.

Counter force would have taken care of it.

Kerry need not apply

Angra Mainyu is a good boy.

Does it really change the fact that killing Sakura solves the problem?

I mean, unless I'm badly misunderstanding this, killing her means no more Shadow.

Destroying the greater grail also means no more shadow, and doesn't require killing Sakura. Ilya and Rin should have been able to figure that out.

>Grail grants wishes/miracles
>cant grant kiritsugus wish for peace bc apparently the only to grant the wish is through the means kiritsugu himself used
Why do people like Zero? Admittedly kiritsugu being a dick and assassinating ppl was cool but gilgamesh as normal was a shitty jobber and the ending was complete fuckery

>Zero Gilgamesh
>jobber

What are you on about, this is undoubtedly one of his better showings. Also read the VN

>Grail grants wishes/miracles
no

>Why do people like Zero?
I blame normalfags and youtubers

Not him, but it's been a while since I read the VN. If the Greater Grail connects to the Root, then how did Avenger not corrupt the Root itself?

The ending is why prequels suck. They need a narrative where you root for the protag but that can asspull a bad end. Prequel AUs should be more common.

The real grail was the meaningless slaughter and suffering we made along the way.

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If the brain can sustain itself and protect itself from outside threats then sure why not.

That doesn't really qualify as a human anymore. There is a whole argument to be made about how much you can alter a human before it isn't one anymore.

No resources to do so and no reason to do so. A construct such as that would only exist to consume dopamine and I don't see how anyone would consider it to be a real human, rather than just an elaborate, oversized emulation of a human brain. It also has absolutely no capabilities with which to contribute to the rest of humanity, and thus becomes a net loss in happiness over time, even if it would be considered a real human (it's not).

What philosophy do you subscribe to by the way? No reason just wondering.

>all of humanity works themselves to death to build the giant brain
>misery and suffering
>brain is happy so on a per-mass average so is humanity
pottery

Those are great reasons for why not to build the brain, thanks for answering his question.

I'm just tired from work and shit posting. Rational egoist that larps a humanist irl. Its all based on underlying nihilism (which I thought I'd grow out of by my mid-twenties but no dice).

The brain is the combined effort and ingenuity of humankind in its entirety. Its happiness represents the happiness of humans at the greatest
all hail the brain.

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>I'm just tired from work and shit posting.
Alright I won't make fun of you and then shitpost about your philosophies as I intended.

brainism > utilitarianism
Could Kiritsugu beat The Brain?
no

Does Sakura even think Shirou is special when it comes to sex?

>lefty
How? Are you that pathetically obsessed with politics you have to look at everything fucking thing with that lense? I'm a rightwinger and don't do this. Have sex.

So do I watch Fate Zero before UBW or what?

His dick is probably smaller and less bumpy than the worms.

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Watch Fate, and then UBW, and then Zero.

He's supposed to be pretty good in bed, as he makes all three heroines cum during their sex scenes with him. Rin also alludes to him being pretty well-endowed, although ingame CGs don't show him as such.

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Makes me wonder if he could have achieved his goal if not for angry manjew corrupting the trail.

>flawed ideology
His ideology is the definition of being correct, but not right. He saves the greatest number of people possible, but is in the moral wrong for it.

Based and Kotomipilled

But have you seen Zouken's bugs?
Shirou has nothing on those bad boys.

But do the bugs supply Sakura with deliciously thick and plentiful sperm just bursting with mana that her body demands so bad? The bugs can't compete with the bone of Shirou's sword.

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Even Shinji could do that.
No men could penetrate their way into her heart like the worms did.

His wish was really vague in general so there's a hundred ways it could be interpreted that aren't necessarily related to the kill everyone manjew corruption but still pretty bad. I think it'd be feasible enough to wish Iri back to life or have Illya be returned to him.

Wasn't there some line about the worms increasing the euphoria she felt during an orgasm by like a ridiculous number? Maybe I'm misremembering things.

Pretty much. She is always horny because she needs a constant supply of semen for the worms swimming in her uterus.

>Why is kiritsugu so well liked

RIKIYA
KOYAMA

>Kill 1 person to potentially save hundreds or thousands
>Flawed ideology
Regardless, it was clear that kiritsugu knew that his ideology wasnt entirely right and he chased after the holy grail in the hopes of getting a proper solution, only to be told that that wasn't how it worked. Though, I'd like someone to actually make a decent argument about the decisions that kiritsugu made that revolved around the ideology you guys seem to think he was a slave to.

*Though I'd like it if you decent argument about how the decisions that Kiritsugu made (involving his ideology) were flawed.