The main theme of Rebellion is the transvaluation of values in the face of postmodern relativism and cosmic nihilism.
when taken to its absolute extreme - which is cosmic nihilism, postmodern relativism dismisses values entirely. However Rebellion is precisely about what values should still exist, EVEN IF applied to the most extreme circumstances that the story deliberately constructs Contrary to the typical position of "everything goes" which is so prevalent nowadays, values in Madoka are clearly evaluated and compared, instead of just leaving them to stand for themselves. Especially when you take into account that in Madoka there are two cases of values being literally(in the actual meaning of the word) raised to universal maxims.
Well in a way, you could call this whole concept an application of postmodern relativism, but I want to explicitly stress, that Madoka does absolutely not leave on a relativistic note. It might very well start with the destruction of values - yet this process stops completely after Episode 9. After this, the whole thing, and especially Rebellion, reaffirms the core values of the genre and proceeds to discuss their universality, which is quite the opposite of dismissing them. The ending of Rebellion evaluates love and courage(will), to universal maxims - Even in the face of transience and cosmic nihilism, thus overcoming relativism itself.
"Could it be that you have realized, that the truth only exists in the past? Things like hope and the future, are just egoistic tales of a faraway silver garden But actually, no one really knows..." - Your Silver Garden, Madoka Magical Rebellion
At the end of everything, ironically, Akemi Homura truly is the ultimate magical girl of love and courage.
Didn't read but I'm glad we can agree Rebellion is a masterpiece
Cooper Rogers
Fuck the mods for deleting the last Rebellion thread. It did literally nothing wrong - just like Homura
Robert Nguyen
Rebellion is the best anime movie of all time, no doubt about that,
Camden Young
post this on the /vg/ Madoka thread and you'll probably get more replies.
Charles Campbell
>Rebellion is the best movie of all time, no doubt about that, ftfy
Caleb Hill
>>Rebellion is the best story ever told, no doubt about that, fixed it again.
Jordan Edwards
Urobuchi isn't a great writer and Shinbo probably isn't the best director there ever was either. Yuki Kajiura is by far not the most sophisticated composer. Yet, together they somehow created Madoka Magica. And indeed, the lightning struck the second time and they surpassed it with Rebellion. The whole truly became greater than the sum of its parts.
A fluke or a miracle; I can only hope that Rebellion is the final conclusion, because the magic most certainly will not be replicated for the third time.
Elijah Allen
Most certainly, friend. I can not even begin to express my disgust at those fools who think that Madoka needs another sequel. Not only do they not understand what we have here - even worse, but they also have the audacity to demand additions to it based on their whims, without even understanding the narrative implications.
And my deepest respect goes to Urobuchi for refusing to let it be desecrated it in this way, even if it meant walking away entirely.
Even the upcoming Magireco is probably going to damage it - but at least they had the decency to have it take place in an alternative universe so that the main continuity won't be completely destroyed.
The best thing about gachashit is that it doesn't even try to be canon, beyond sucking in mentally ill gambling addicts who don't give a shit about the narrative anyway. It's very easy to act like it doesn't exist.
Zachary Morales
Lol, no. Rebellion is glorious, and it is only natural to have this opinion about it. The real question is why not more people here share this sentiment.
Oh yes, Fate/Extra was forgotten before it even finished airing, mostly thanks to Shaft fuckery. Never even bothered with the last three eps and I hope Magireco will be the same trainwreck or worse.
Carter Johnson
>he doesn't want a rebellion sequel lol
Jason Reyes
Thanks, user. I'm glad some anons appreciate this type of posts.
Beware of Magireco till the very end. In the worst case, they will pull the "It all happened in Homura's world" twist, and that can even be done at the very last episode if they dare.
Grayson Hughes
MagiReco is the Madoka sequel we deserve.
Sebastian Martin
Apparently, some topics are too sensitive to be discussed, even on Yea Forums. It's actually a shame that we were/are not able to hold an adult conversation about this without it all devolving into a giant shitstorm.
Ian Anderson
People tend to get upset at homophobia and sexism. Your views are very controversial. You must understand.
Kevin Hill
Is this actually a Christian anime or did Yea Forums lie to me?
David Smith
more buddhist than anything
Josiah Rodriguez
>Urobuchi isn't a great writer The fact that he made some of the best stories the medium has to offer, I kind of want to say the opposite.
People also tend to get upset when you tell them the truth. The problem with my views is not that they are homophobic and sexist, but that they are actually the precise opposite of that. It's that they expose the narrative itself as being homophobic and sexist, which makes people upset.
Ask yourself this: If I claim that Madoka is "reverse yaoi and some weird transgender things", or whatever it got framed and mislabeled as. And Madoka is my favorite anime of all time, and I praise it to high heaven. What does that say about my opinions on "reverse yaoi and some weird transgender things"?
On the other hand, if you think that acknowledging biological reality is sexist. Then perhaps we will have to agree to disagree there. I never once in that thread - or any other for that matter - voiced a negative judgment on women. That part came entirely from the other side, claiming that if I construe the female to have different inherent qualities to the male, it would be sexist because THEY perceive the traditional male attributes to be superior to female, which is in of itself a sexist implication.
So naturally it is controversial, but not for the reasons you name.
Sebastian Barnes
>i'm pro transgender >gender is biological something isn't right here...
Christian Powell
Only a sexist would think that there is a contradiction between those two statements.
Jack Torres
I don't even want to know. I won't watch it and I'll probably start filtering Madoka threads when that time comes. Shaft can do whatever the fuck they want, but I won't let them defile Madoka in my consciousness. It's really not. I didn't read the novels, but as far as the anime goes, Fate/Zero was mismanaged. Butcher was given an amazingly cool premise, but didn't do enough with it. Too many characters, too little time to flesh them out properly. The tone shifts between dumb comedy relief and grimdark world-building felt awfully out of place. I could cherrypick many more things, but it's 3AM and pointless, because I like the anime despite its glaring flaws. Maybe the novels are the best shit ever and Ufotable just went full retard, I don't know. Nevertheless, a great writing? Maybe by anime standards, but even that's doubtful. Psycho-Pass is basically a Minority Report adaptation with some other works thrown in. Nothing new was said whatsoever. Haven't read Saya no Uta for reasons, nor plan to. Godzilla is dumb shit by default and I'm pretty sure everyone likes puppets ironically only.
Did I forget something?
Matthew Rogers
The puppets are unironically amazing.
Jacob Murphy
But you're saying that ironically. I know, user.
Zachary Adams
>I'll probably start filtering Madoka threads when that time comes. Don't do this. There is still plenty to discuss about Rebellion. Only today, after all this time, have I finally been able to articulate the main theme of Rebellion(and I am actually saddened by the fact that no one takes interest in the OP statement), it has been lurking in my mind, but I was never able to formulate it until now.
>Saya no Uta It's unironically great.
Lucas Brooks
Discussion can only get you so far anyway. It's helpful and interesting, but there is only so much you can deconstruct and it's becoming less and less worth it having to deal with gachafagging shitposters and various mental illnesses ever-present in these threads. When you deconstruct Madoka far enough, various irreconcilable interpretations result, stemming from differing worldviews and philosophies. Madoka is pretty much Quantum Physics of anime. >It's unironically great. Perhaps. But I can't stand 2D rape and such an explicit body horror.
Hudson Ward
>But I can't stand 2D rape and such an explicit body horror. At its heart, Saya no Uta is cute and melancholic, but I can understand the sentiment.
I'd read it if there was a remake a la realta nua. Is all the 'explicitness' in Saya no Uta purposeful at least? I wouldn't be able to take it seriously if it felt like watching an H slideshow.
But the crux of the transgender movement is the separation of gender from sex. Are you pulling my leg here?
Henry Smith
I find this really hard to believe considering your previous statements over the months.
Jace Morgan
What is this?
Elijah Campbell
Well, to be honest, I don't remember it to be that explicit anyway. I just opened it up and went over it, so there is apparently an option to blur the obscure images and lower the brightness. Well, there are actually quite a few explict scenes, but at least they are not pointless. Saya no uta plays with the whole sexual dynamic of the situation, so it is unavoidable, so I doubt that there will ever be a version without them - which should also tell your how prvelent they are.
Jaxson Sullivan
>no one takes interest in the OP statement It's likely because OP is using terms that only people who study philosophy know, which is not a lot.
Robert Evans
Well, that is because you mislabeled my statements from the very beginning and forced me into a debate about the nature of biological sex vs pure constructivism(which is still just simply factually wrong, and I won't get into this any more, after the last time it ended with me linking multiple studies to support my position which got simply dismissed with a handwave of "this is not worth debating", so I won't even try making the case anymore), when the actual intention of that thread was something much more benign.
>your previous statements Go ahead, name something that I said, even if it is vague. I never changed my opinion on this topic. All those debates were just completely poisoned by labeling.
Jackson Johnson
it ends in a cliffhanger tho
Nicholas Johnson
>i'm not a sexist >but gender is biological this guy
Alexander Johnson
the transgender movement is in my opinion, not acting in the interest of trans people and only serves to make them look bad in the public eye right now. And the things that they are doing to kids right now is a crime against humanity.
Isaac Rodriguez
Sort of. If you want an actually Christian magical girl series, watch Symphogear.
Joshua Ramirez
I watched the first three seasons but I don't see how it's Christian. Maybe I'm just a brainlet.
Tyler Long
What? How do you even expect Madoka if you don't even know those terms? That's like trying to understand higher-dimensional manifold analysis if you don't even know what a vector space is...
Zachary Myers
what parallel dimension are you from? Madoka does not have 3 seasons
Tyler Diaz
I was talking about Symphogear.
Logan Scott
S1 is about the Tower of Babel and also has lots of references to Revelation, not just big things like the final battle with Fine that Genjuro explicitly calls out but little things like the name of the school being Lydian (the Lydian mode is a musical scale, but Lydia, the region it was named after, is also the region where the seven churches of Revelation were located). All the stuff about the curse of balal associated with the Tower continues throughout the following seasons, too. G and GX are less explicitly Christian than S1 but AXZ brings it back. It sometimes deals with these things in a weird way, and some Christians might say it's twisting things too far, but it draws a lot from Christianity. Read the post he was replying to.
Kayden Kelly
Not sure if you're the same guy, but that really has nothing to do with my argument.
Charles White
It has. You just don't seem to understand your own argument and instead are just throwing around labels.
It is not in the interest of trans people to go around claiming that sex and gender vary independently, because this simply does not reflect biological reality and will only serve to cause lots of damage to those who are affected by it.
It would be much better to acknowledge autogynephilia as an actual phänomenon that is perhaps in many cases better handled by just accepting themselves how they are, and perhaps allowing men to express emotions(exemplarily in the way it is expressed in Madoka, which was actually the original point of the argument) without getting stigmatized for it. Instead of having to label everything feminine in men as transgender and treating it with hormone therapy(which is statistically disastrous), and especially with the whole exclusivity surrounding the whole issue, creating a self-sustaining environment that is capable of entrapping many unaffected people by the group dynamic of the echo chamber effect. The whole thing is extremely dangerous and not good for society, and especially the people how are affected by it.
If you think that wanting to help people who are struggling with their gender identity is transphobic because I perhaps don't adhere to your insane science denying orthodoxy, then that is your problem.
You people are a religious cult. You haven't even named a single argument in this entire thread. You replied to lengthy explanations about my positions with name calling, trying to stigmatize me with your labels: "It is said that gender and sex are separate, you don't believe that THEREFORE YOU ARE EVIL" That is your whole argument, even in all previous threads all you said was repeating the same mantra over and over again. Someone even said that "this argument makes me sad", what a fine argument that is, truly! Even this post is probably going to be dismissed with a cheap slide of hand.
Jaxson James
All of Rebellion could’ve been solved had Homura just raped Madoka.
Cameron Morales
Aside from you misunderstanding what it means to be trans... >men should allowed to be feminine You're so close to understanding what "gender is a social construct" means, yet you refuse to embrace it. Perhaps it's because it has major implications on your entire worldview, but from this statement alone it seems you already agree with parts of it. Gender was explained to you many times before, yet you refuse to give it any mind. You don't understand that this statement logically leads to the fact that gender is a social construct.
Jaxon Bailey
>implying she didn't Did you even watch Rebellion?
No, it doesn't. There you go again, repeating the same mantra. I am familiar with your ideology, and I perfectly understand it. Even an idiot, can understand something this simplistic. And that is precisely why it fails to describe reality.
I asked this over 20 times now, but perhaps we can try again Do you know what "correlation" is? You are claiming that things that are extremely strongly related vary independently. That is mathematically false. And it is proven to be false. Gender and Sex are equal in 99.5% of the cases. "Gender is a social construct" implies that you can just socially construct any arbitrary kind of gender structure, and it would never relapse into the natural genders we have right now, or cause any kinds of problems - just like you can run any arbitrary kind of software on a computer of any brand. That is simply false and proven to be false with numerous studies and experiments. I am not denying that there is a social component to gender, NO ONE is claiming that it is JUST biological. But it is absolutely not purely socially constructed.
If a man expresses emotions, he does not change his fucking god damned gender. He is still a man. And he stays a man. And if he is gay, he says a man. And if he dresses in drag, he stays a fucking man. You can not just magically become a woman.
That does NOT mean that it wouldn't make sense for some men to do some of the things listed above or that there would be anything wrong with that.
fuck off, we tried this last time. They all turned tail and ran. This issue has been hanging over Madoka threads for almost a year now, and it is very much not offtopic anymore at this point.
Sebastian Richardson
>Gender and Sex are equal in 99.5% of the cases. >source:your ass
Christopher Hughes
Rebellion is otaku-pandering, cash-grab insult to whole Madoka franchise.
>If a man expresses emotions, he does not change his fucking god damned gender. He is still a man. And he stays a man. And if he is gay, he says a man. And if he dresses in drag, he stays a fucking man. Correct. That's what gender being a social construct means. There are not feminine traits or masculine traits, just traits. People act like people, and can act and do whatever they want.
No. You don't get to demand sources anymore after dismissing them last time, I won't go through the trouble of looking them up again. Google it and prove me wrong or kill yourself, faggot.
Benjamin Hall
Just because you have off-topic discussions in certain threads a lot doesn't actually make it on-topic.
Zachary Collins
>Did I forget something? Yeah. Check out your shit taste outside.
David Clark
>People can act and do whatever they want. Absolutely
>People act like people Patterns still exist. This is what "do not vary independently" means. Most boys will always act like stereotypical boys. Most girls will always act like stereotypical girls. It was tried and it failed, you can not prevent that, even with social pressure. People are not blank slates.
Well, the topic of this discussion is: "The characters in Madoka are gender-inverted", so it is actually related.
Andrew Ortiz
You misinterpreted that study to fit your prior assumption, and then you dismissed the most major criticism of your worldview. Yes, gender roles and norms are societal. Women choosing certain carreers over others when given the freedom to do so is because of societal pressure. Just because they now have the freedom to choose what they want to do doesn't mean the societal pressure is suddenly gone. And what I mean by societal pressure, I mean any influence form another human being from birth, both subtle and major. This can be something as simple as seeing other women in mostly traditional roles, and thinking "Since I'm a girl, that must be something like what I must do too," and then that idea being reinforced countless times throughout their life. The counter against that is to encourage women into getting into more career fields, and is actually working. More and more women are entering STEM.
Colton James
>Most boys will always act like stereotypical boys. >Most girls will always act like stereotypical girls. Maybe get out from under your rock and interact with others and make some friends. The average woman is not sterotypically feminine and the average man is not stereotypically and toxically masculine. >People are not blank slates. Sure, but the "unblankness" of a person's personality isn't determined by their sex.
James Thomas
This is what happens when this user makes a thread. He now has a reputation now and people will fight him about it. His first threads were about his dumb gender-inverted theory and they quickly devolved into flamewars.
Joshua Garcia
Not but it has similar themes.
Wyatt Wilson
you can get off your high horse and use simpler terms to make your argument so more people can engage with it and understand.
Luis Peterson
You are unironically arguing for a pure 100% constructionist worldview.
Forget grown women, you will always find explanations to explain any trend away. But the only data we have there are trends - while substantial, you will still find ways to dismiss them "god of the gaps"-style.
So now, dismiss this: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/icd.2064 "Despite methodological variation in the choice and number of toys offered, context of testing, and age of child, the consistency in finding sex differences in children's preferences for toys typed to their own gender indicates the strength of this phenomenon and the likelihood that has a biological origin."
I actually made many threads before that, they just never got me this kind of publicity. And my theory wasn't dumb, it was actually very substantial, and many anons came to understand it. However, I did not think that we had this many fanatics in our ranks.
Easton Brooks
>You are unironically arguing for a pure 100% constructionist worldview. I'm not though.
Noah Powell
you didn't read the full study, did you...
Jason Rivera
Rebellion is brilliant, nuanced sequel that cemented and enhanced the franchise's legacy.
Then state your position. The way you are arguing right now is just throwing around labels, that you don't even seem to know the definitions of.
The only alternative to pure social constructivism is that it has biological factors. There is absolutely no middle ground here.
Did you? Oh, you just cited a paper without verifying all the results yourself!!! Yes, I cited a paper. That was a full quote, not committing any violations, from the CONCLUSIONS SECTION. Go read the paper and write why the scientists reached the wrong conclusion.
You know, you might think I was samefagging, but I wasn't the only one arguing for my position.
Ryder Price
>The only alternative to pure social constructivism is that it has biological factors. There is absolutely no middle ground here. >it's either all biology or all society that's fucking stupid, user. Oh wait, you're probably going to say >it's not ALL biology, it's only 95% biology!
Asher Ortiz
This. TV / Movie 1&2 is okay. Rebellion is a lot better. I want another movie too.
The gender inversion theory relies on the idea that there are "male traits" and "female traits," which does not reflect reality. There is really no such thing as "acting like a man" or "acting like a woman." Even then, OP ignores what are traditionally considered feminine traits, and implies that the opposite of what he considers masculine traits (courage, ambition, etc.) are feminine traits. This is what caused the shitstorms.
Brayden Hernandez
This is simple set theory.
If A,B and C are sets. B and C are disjunct. And A is a subset of B and C, And your claim is "I never claimed that A does not share anything with C", then the logical conclusion from that is "A shares something with C".
It does not mean and I did not say that it means that A = C and A shares nothing with B. That is just so fucking retarded, I can't even.
>it's not ALL biology, it's only 95% biology! This is even more stupid. Are you even familiar with the biological determinism argument, AT ALL? No one ever claimed that behavior is 95% biological. It's for a huge part influenced by environmental factors, again, NO ONE EVER denied this.
>OP ignores what are traditionally considered feminine traits en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity "Traits traditionally cited as feminine include gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity,[6][7][8] though traits associated with femininity vary depending on location and context, and are influenced by a variety of social and cultural factors.[9]" This was quoted in the first thread. Kill yourself.
Oliver Gutierrez
And you ignored those traits in the characters mulitple times when pressed because acknowledging them calls into question your dumb theory.
Owen Scott
>This is even more stupid. But that's literally what you argued earlier in the thread, retard.
Joshua Moore
This is what I meant by "we can not have an adult conversation about it" Oh, so you named some of those traits in some of the characters. Ha, gotcha. That is how you think you "won" the argument. Good job.
You believe in the pure social construction of gender. Now that you LOST that case. You did lose it right now after getting refuted with a scientific quote. You are now trying to lead the discussion away from that in order to fall back on it later after I win the discussion on this layer. Not going to happen.
Concede that gender is correlated with sex and therefore there IS such a thing as "acting like a man" or "acting like a woman.", otherwise, there is no point in discussing this further.
No, no, that's not what I said. Behavior is not the same thing as Gender. Otherwise, every person of the same gender would have the exact same behavior which is obviously not the case. But behavior is strongly correlated with gender, which is strongly correlated with sex. How is that so hard to understand?
Liam Young
>Behavior is not the same thing as Gender Absolutely. But the reality is gender is learned behavior, not biological/innate. >But behavior is strongly correlated with gender, which is strongly correlated with sex. So you're behavior is strongly biological. Which is exactly what I claimed you said.
Ryan Wright
user. 95% and 60% and 40% are all strong correlations. You are struggling with the most basic math right now.
So to explicitly type it out:
Behavior is perhaps 40~% (for some factors) Gender. Gender is 99% Sex.
Robert Harris
Gender is not the same as sex, user. How can you still not understand this?
Wyatt Jones
Go to church, if you want to chant mantras, user. You have now repeated the same thing without adding anything else, just as a statement for the 10th time in this thread. And I am getting tired of the same fucking shit.
Aiden Miller
And you just keep spouting the same bullshit as well because you refuse to see things from the other point of view in every single one of your arguments ever. Please, read up on this subject so you may be educated. I shall give you a starting point. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender
Jacob Powell
There is very little substantially to suggest that gender differences come from essential biological mental differences. Gender is something that changes throughout the ages and throughout different cultures. It's even happening now in the way that the differences are ever decreasing. The idea of masculine and feminine personality traits is just society deciding what the ideal traits are for gender. There is no biological component to that.
Ayden Richardson
You have lost the argument when I produced a scientific study that has proven my point. I have explained my views. I have tried reasoning with you. And I have quoted a study that proves my point. You have just chanted mantras, and now you want me to study your ideology(which I am already familiar with). This is literally the same thing as saying: "Read the Bible, the truth is in there, once you read it you will understand!". This is comical in its irony. Address the study
Cameron Edwards
Address the study.
Adam Perry
There is very little substantially to suggest that gender differences come from essential biological mental differences.
Owen Ramirez
>Address the study. > (You)
Hunter Lopez
I don't give a flying fuck about this gender bullshit, but holy shit, are you 16, you fucking faggots? These "arguments" are embarrassing to read. Please never post again.
>The main theme of Rebellion is the transvaluation of values in the face of postmodern relativism and cosmic nihilism. I have a bit of contention with that last bit. Kyubey might be the ultimate amoralist, and before anyone claims that he is an agent of 'greater good', think about what that actually means, and why Kyubey should concern himself with such things (or rather, why he shouldn't), and realize that you've been duped as much as any girl who bought his contract. Although, a rational agent acting in in the interest of self-preservation clearly indicates a sense of value, and in that sense, acting according to a value isn't truly nihilistic.
All that said, while Kyubey is the antagonist, the majority of Homura's conflict is internal in nature. Specifically, the inability to reconcile her actions with her moral framework.
>there are two cases of values being literally(in the actual meaning of the word) raised to universal maxims And despite this, as I stated previously, the actions had deviations from these values. Madoka sought to preserve the wishes of all magical girls and the hopes they represented, yet inadvertently trampled Homura's wish and robbed meaning from her existence. Homura upholding Madoka's happiness (her moral obligation) does not justify denying Madoka's will (her moral transgression), so despite the necessity of her actions, her inability to uphold both is sin.
However, the point of the series is that value should not be dismissed on the grounds of the inability to realize it through action, instead, the affirmation of value is not its realization, but the struggle in their pursuit: "If someone tells me it's wrong to hope, I'll tell them they're wrong every time." "But even then, I'll continue to fight for a world where you can be happy."
Asher Garcia
>realize that you've been duped as much as any girl who bought his contract >yet inadvertently trampled Homura's wish and robbed meaning from her existence >Homura upholding Madoka's happiness (her moral obligation) does not justify denying Madoka's will (her moral transgression), so despite the necessity of her actions, her inability to uphold both is sin. Thanks for typing it out. So many people completely miss this.
Most people here love Thunderbolt Fantasy unironically though, you should try stepping in the once in a while threads (or wait for season 3) to see by yourself.
How about not intentionally obfuscating your point by using needlessly obscure words?
>cosmic nihilism Not a thing as far as I know, except sometimes used to describe the type of horror written by Lovecraft. What's the difference between this "cosmic nihilism" and existential nihilism?
>postmodern relativism What's the difference between postmodern relativism and relativism in general?
>Especially when you take into account that in Madoka there are two cases of values being literally(in the actual meaning of the word) raised to universal maxims Elaborate.
Thomas Rivera
Maybe she raped her in one of the timelines. She always has the option to fuck her now that she has Madoka at her mercy after Rebellion.
