Berserk Thread

I hold the opinion that Griffith did nothing wrong UNTIL he raped Casca. Since then he's been evil, and any argument for him being good can only be a retcon.

>All the murders were fine but the sex was just over the line.

So far we haven't seen anyone activate a behelit under the circumstance of NOT having hit rock bottom.

Griffith wasn't about to sacrifice a damn thing if he didn't absolutely have to. He's pathologically against it. He normally can't stand losing anything. So he'd sooner work to figure out a way to fuck over the Godhand and take their power on his own terms. It's not even that he's nice, he's just that selfish. He'd want both.

well, it was the first bad thing he did without justifying it or mourning it, so yeah I would call that stepping over the line into evil.

Welcome to our retarded puritan system of morality. Though I will say that while the massacre of the Band of the Hawk was out of necessity, fucking Casca and making Guts watch was pure spite. So in a certain sense, it was a bit more fucked up than the rest. More personal.

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People also forget that Casca always wanted Griffith and not Guts.

That had already begun to change from the moment Charlotte came into the picture. Guts quickly became her silver medal after that.

The raping of Casca wasn't gratuitous, it was portrayed in such excruciating details to make the audience understand that despite being a member of the God Hand, Griffith retains part of his humanity, at least when it comes to his impulses and motivations: raping a sacrifice isn't something a God would do, it's something born out of hatred and spite, both human emotions that Griffith supposedly forsaken. The fact that he is still human is of capital importance because if he decides to turn agains the IoE, he would do so because of that humanity he has retained

That's the logic of a rapist my friend.
And of course I never forgot that she wanted Griffith. That doesn't mean she wanted to be fucked retarded in the blood of her friends.

He was not evil. He lived life the only way he could, and it was "OK" for him to sacrifice people who were willing to die for his dream.
It was unquestionably evil though to condemn his soldiers to eternal torment and fuck his best friends girl, to spite him.

>That doesn't mean she wanted to be fucked retarded in the blood of her friends.
Even after, Griffith is the only man she feels comfortable around. She actively rejects guts in her "Retardation" and embraces Griffith when he's around.

perfectly worded

That doesn't mean she wanted to be fucked retarded in the blood of her friends.

I'm of the belief that Griffith didn't even intend to sacrifice his friends this was all forced upon him due to the circumstances he was put in because of his white privilege and position he was given in life he should be forgiven for anything he does in the future.

You should go re-read "Warriors of Twilight", it's clear in that chapter that the emotions of Casca towards Griffith aren't black and white, as any human being she has a complex emotional world and she is struggling to come to terms with her own feelings. Saying that she he's still interested in Griffith as a lover is missing the entire point of her character's arc

Everything else is highly debatable, but "severely lacking in basic empathy" is utter nonsense. The whole point of his character arc is the deep-seated dissonance between what he thinks he must be as a leader (uncompromising, always moving forward, unemotional) and his real self (guilt-ridden, deeply emotionally attached, and overall quite fragile). This split in his psyche keeps growing until he loses his source of emotional comfort and he completely self-destructs, "tearing himself apart", the IoE puts it.

This is the whole point of Casca's repeated rants at Guts, pointing out that Griffith is not this stony, ascended being everybody including Guts sees him as.

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From my understanding, those that undergo the transformation into apostles, or in this case the Angels of the Godhand, tend to retain part of their human identity. And for Griffith, part of that was how pissed off he was about no longer being the center of the universe for both Guts and Casca. This was constantly emphasized just prior to the Eclipse. All those moments of him looking on from a distance, coming to the realization that those two, who once worshiped him, now loved one another, with Griffith coming in second to both. Left out in the cold and you could taste the frustration in him.

Raping Casca made him the most important person to both of them again in one fell swoop. Guts obsessed, and Casca insane. Neither of them could ever ignore him again. It demonstrated that his possessiveness and narcissism not only remained intact, but had been magnified to a truly twisted degree.

Oh and
>raping a sacrifice isn't something a God would do
I admit we don't know enough about the Godhand to absolutely and definitively say what's normal for them, but Slann also wants to rape a sacrifice, so that's 2/5 already.

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She sought Griffith because her baby is part of his new vessel. It had nothing to do with her affection for Griffith himself.

Keep telling yourself that.
Women are NOT complex.

This page really sums it. Griffith is not the ruthless, uncaring person he needs to be for his dream, so he tries to shape himself into one. He lies to himself, engages in rationalizations, but ultimately his real self still breaks him.

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I agree with what you said. Although, I think that the motivations of Griffith and Slan's actions are very different. While Griffith had a deeply personal connection with both Guts and Casca, Slan in her behavior acts more like she does towards humans in general, as demonstrated by her role in the Tower of Conviction's arc. If you want, Slan resembles a goddess like Aphrodites in the tragedies of Erupides (especially the Hippolitus): she is a force of nature that presides over a particular domain of human life, in her case sexuality, and her actions can be traced back to this. I personally think that all the God Hand's member retain part of their former selves and that's why Griffith and Slan act in the way they do, however the difference between Griffith and the other members is that they seem to accept their role as enforcer of the will of Causality while he may be harboring a rebellious intent. Of course this is just a speculation

You'll notice that Griffith himself rationalizes his relationships and attachments to others - with Guts as a massive exception - in terms that treats other people as objects that further Griffith's ends. You can say Griffith is wrong about himself, and that Guts proves that, but don't be so dense as to think that his own admitted mentality had no affect on his behavior towards people.

Yes, he lacked empathy. If anything, the crack that Guts made in his usual demeanor highlights that. Under ordinary circumstances, Griffith sees the world only in regards to how it reflects upon him and his beliefs. Even in the Toy Soldier scene, where we see him struggling with what appears to be guilt over a young soldier that revered him, he brings it back to being all about Griffith. What that boy saw in him, and what he must do in order to give his death value.

That was not all an act. It wasn't all there was to him, but it was sure as hell part of it.

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Griffith is the "blessed king of longing".
According to the God Hand anyway, but I dare say they understand their purpose and attributes best.
The main thing Griffith longs for is control, power and his own kingdom.
The fact he rapes Casca in front of Guts does match his portfolio, but his portfolio results out of who he was in life.
>a jealous, ruthless, ambitious and controlling motherfucker

what the hell are you saying? how retarded you need to be to never understand that Griffit has her son body, how the fuck can you be so retarded

women pretend to have orgasms and Casca pretended to enjoy with Griffith because that's what women do with fagots like him and you :)

>The fact that he is still human is of capital importance because if he decides to turn agains the IoE, he would do so because of that humanity he has retained
I'm 100% convinced that ultimately Griffith's goal has become to slay the godhand and the IoE. He literally manifested the supernatural into the human world in order to kill it, and the supernatural are a consequence of negative human thought. In essence, I think Griffith wants to restore free will to humanity by killing god himself, since without it his dream is worthless.

>posting that scene
If anything that's proof of how Griffith really felt. He wanted to kill himself rather than burden his friends. Ubik and Conrad fucking mind-pozz Griffith during the eclipse to get him to sacrifice the Falcons, and it's even revealed they've been manipulating him his entire life.

Griffith is a victim, too.

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But the moment he learned his dream wasn't dead he jumped on it.
I mean, it made sense.. it was the same he has always done: piling up corpses to reach the castle. He had already led thousands to their deaths and killed ten-thousands.
Would have been for nothing if he or his dream died; he didn't really have a choice but take another step.

>Even in the Toy Soldier scene, where we see him struggling with what appears to be guilt over a young soldier that revered him, he brings it back to being all about Griffith. What that boy saw in him, and what he must do in order to give his death value.
Because it is ultimately about him. He's the one who gives commands and whose dream his people follow. What he does or doesn't do is absolutely crucial and decides everything else.
We know what the Berserk world is like and it's beyond unusual to see a person in power rack himself to blood like a man obsessed over what is objectively a trivial loss for a military commander. Even good people in Berserk don't lose sleep over dead literally whos, and yet this guy, who should be more immune to it than anybody, is clearly not handling it well.

As Judeau says, he's a man of contradictions. Wise and naive, ruthless and sensitive, cold and passionate, aloof and emotionally dependent, full of longing but also austere. Unsurprisingly, he couldn't maintain his own self for long.

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*like a man possessed

Pretty sure Cioccolatta is evil.

At the end of the day, he did nothing wrong.

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This is really a good point, as I said, I think that the God Hand's members still have part of their humanity in them, it remains to be seen if this will result in a future rebellion or not

If the "idea of evil" made him who he is, he is nothing but a vehicle and "griffith" as a person was never really alive, just self serving ruthless ambition personified

He was already a cold hearted sob before the eclipse but desu he can't really be blamed for taking the deal given to him during the eclipse. After what he had been through and his current state

The real question is wether or not he has a cool bag

He might have been aware of causality and the fact he would have to be a huge asshole to change the metaphysical status quo

Or not. Some people deliberately invoke Hegelian dialectics, others are just part or it

>He's pathologically against it
Did you forget where he sacrificed his own body to some fat count just to get a few shekels?

I think he ran away from his true feelings.
Along the journey to obtaining his kingdom, he instead grew to subconsciously like being with guts more, not even in a gay way.
Being beat by him means the one person in his entire life he's felt this connection with was leaving, as well as embarrassing him in front of his generals.
Instead of being true to the fact he wanted guts to stay for him, he never told him how much he truly cared for him.
He can't handle the fact it was his own dream speech that pushed guts away, so tried to regain his dream by making his entire world colder.

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Next chapter when?

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Berserk will never have an ending, accept it.

I didn't ask for an ending, I asked for more.

Why bother for more when its just gonna end on some random shit though ?

Speaking of the whole Griffith raping Caska in front of Guts thing I think that’s part of the reason why Griffith’s relationship with Guts was portrayed as so homoerotic during the golden age. Griffith is all about control and his desire to control guts always had sexual undertones. Rape is the ultimate act of control and sexual violence merged into one so Griffith raping Caska to me was always about Griffith trying to get back at Guts for trying to abandon the band of the hawk and for finding love with someone else. ( right before the eclipse Griffith did try to force himself on Caska even though he was a cripple)
Even before that when Guts beat Griffith in a duel and left the band of the hawk Griffith was devastated at least partly because that meant he couldn’t control Guts, which is why he immigrated sought solace in Princess Charlotte, who is someone he could freely manipulate and control using his sexuality. I fully buy into the Griffith is gay for Guts theory for that reason.

I will want more as long as I keep enjoying it.

>right before the eclipse Griffith did try to force himself on Caska even though he was a cripple
That's a very important point. He failed his Casca rape only 15 minutes earlier.
He was pissed Guts took Casca from him (even if that's not really true with how loyal she was).
It's really no wonder she went potato.

Its all Casca's fault.

If she had not seduced his boyfriend, Guts, he would not have lost his ties with his humanity, thus causing him to sacrifice the band of the hawk.

Griffith didnt rape Casca to spite Guts, he did it as revenge for her stealing his boyfriend.

So moral of the story is never cuck a gay guy?

Yep

The consequences are great and terrible.

Not if youre into ntr yourself tho

Was Guts gay for Griffith?

No, but he wavered.

sorry guys but i bought the bd's of the new anime

Psst. Hey you. It's been over a year since the last chapter (358). Feeling old yet? No? Code Geass came out 13 years ago. How about now?

No, but Guts was Griffith's one true love

griffith did everything wrong

griffith fucked my mom wtf

Griffith fucked everyones mom

>over a year since the last chapter
But the new chapter came out last month?

He treated Guts like his plaything. It's the reason why he went cuckoo when Guts beat his ass and took off. He was never a good person. We just didn't get to see his evil side because the story is told through his worshipper's point of view.

At least not a gay guy who leads an army and pays your wages.

"good" and "evil" are pretty subjective and the definition changes from culture to culture

idk if griffith is evil but he was a full blown manipulative sociopath with a schizoid personality (nothing to do with scizophrenia, schizoid means you find no value in other people aside using them as useful tools as means to and end or have any desire for interpersonal relationships)

griffith did nothing wrong

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Is EG gay for duck?

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Never said he doesn't.
That isn't why she wanted to be close to him.

Griffith isn't gay you projecting weirdos.

>Leader of a group of paid murderers
>Want to kidnap a girl who's totally defenseless as far as they know so they can get revenge on her (admittedly just as evil, if not worse) father
>Most of La Squadra have no issue with killing uninvolved civilians in pursuit of this goal

Risotto wasn't going to have Trish harmed.

>Sacrificing all the people who trusted and respected him to be torn apart and devoured by demons is fine
>But rape is taking it too far

I'm sure it was out of the goodness of his heart and not to use her as an eternal bargaining chip.

Risotto and Bruno could have worked together.

I think that even if they did, their conflicting morals will inevitably break them up.

He lost his shit because Guts wouldn’t give him the D

Griffith fucking the princess was an intentionally self destructive act lashing out after Guts left. Griffith would not have sacrificed the band of the hawk before Gut’s departure, but the loss of the rock he had relied on for so long, an actual failure on his part plus what he endured in the dungeon and his utter helplessness afterwards changed him. He had no power left at all, and what he had once seen as his family now looked like fairweather friends to him—they were capable of leaving him, and so the only one worthy of his trust was himself.

Guts was within his rights to leave, but Griffith’s original plan would have succeeded if he hadn’t left.

Are you caught up? You read the dog stuff yet? Your argument falls to pieces pretty clearly there.

Please keep your trauma out of this discussion about fiction

it's true though
they only latch to strong males for support

No I'm not caught up.

There are times in the golden age where I came close to caring for him. At certain points in the story you feel like he really is bigger than life, like a cool older brother that’s helping you get to the top.
Someone you can genuinely look up to.
It’s all an illusion, a fucking show he put on. He never cared about a single person except Guts. He never gave a shit about anyone. Not his subordinates, not the people of Midland, not even the princess. They all served as tools and stepping stones to achieve power, and power alone. Even the act of selling his asshole was just another way to save resources.
What really hits hard is just how opposite he comes off, he makes you think that he does care, that you serve an import role in his world.
he couldn’t let his quest for power go. He sold out the people who worshiped him. He sacrificed the only person he came close to considering a friend. And he didn’t stop there, he raped the person most under his spell, a person who would give up her entire life to look after and keep him safe. Say whatever you will of the sacrifice, lie to yourself and justify it any way you want. But don’t ever forget that Griffith raped Casca just to spite Guts.
Death to betrayers. Death to Griffith.

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Doesnt the thing that the god hand serve manipulate destiny and stuff? He can hardly be at fault when his whole existence was literally "doomed" or written in stone or something like that.

Lol

>new chapter
>threads still dead

Feels good to be on the winning side

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Guts was the only person Griffith ever had genuine affection for.

Get caught up is all I’m gonna say

Sure but no one cares. Take it to /r9k/

The whole lack of free will argument only really works if you accept that there is no good or evil at all. If he’s not evil because of destiny, then he’s certainly not good either. He’s just a meat robot acting out his programming.

But we use good/evil not always to refer to some cosmic scorekeeping system but as a way to describe behaviors we want to encourage/discourage as a society, in order to manipulate the behavior of all of us meat puppets. And under this system, his actions are indisputably evil.

remember the good ol days?

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>berserk 2016
>good old days

I guess that's why it's called "The Golden Age"

the darkest timeline my frens

youtube.com/watch?v=kpPK3VSMnRE&feature=youtu.be&t=19
berserk x fortnite

>he is beyond good and evil
atheist fedora tipping cringe
evil doesnt cease to exist just because you think you have a big brained take on it. he just didn't give a shit

he had the choice of giving it up. he decided not to.

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towards the end of the month at the 26 or 27 maybe

Did miura say hes going to release chapters consistently or is this just wishful thinking?

Griffith was absolutely a lowkey egomaniac who would do anything and sacrifice anyone for the sake of his dream.

But it already did?

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based & redpilled, top kek to all the faggots in this thread justifying Griffiths choice (he could have chosen to give up his dream, instead he sacrificed the people who looked up to him) like he didn't have any other course of action. a good person would have called it quits rather than impose his will to this level. he's an edgelord and its the entire reason guts left in the first place
all he had to do was tell Guts he was different to him and ask him to stay, instead he got humiliated by getting his ass kicked by the strongest man alive for no reason and ragefucked the princess like he's some victim.
here's to hoping he gets his just desserts

On that note, Miura has a shit ton to wrap up:
>Casca rehabilitation and her reunion with Guts
>owner of Guts' behelit
>Rickert + Silat rebellion
>Sonia + Schierke 2nd meeting
>Falconia raid on witch island
>events leading up to taking down Griffith and Falconia
Etc. etc. and that's just from the top of my head. I suspect Miura will end by the late 2020s if he wants the ending to wrap up everything nicely

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Nope, last issue effectively said "see u later" with no specific date.
Check skullknight forums on a bi weekly basis and they'll announce whether or not a new chapters coming.

This tbf.
People who unironically support Griffiths decision cannot accept that he is completely responsible for the position he put himself in and unlike a man, had to blame other people for it instead of facing his own mistakes and accepting them.
Fuck Griffith.

i forget, did Griffith even give a shit that Guts killed an innocent child who reminded him of himself? that alone is some heavy shit...

Did Guts even tell him?

either way he should have known since Adonis was killed at the same time as Julius. maybe he just figured Guts was just as ruthless as him. if thats true then Griffith is a worse person than people give him credit for

All he had to do was NOT fuck the King's daughter.
He should have waited, intermingled with the nobility(which he was already doing) and eventually marry into it, becoming heir to the throne.
He just had to be patient.
Griffith was a fucking idiot.

post soundtrack kino
youtube.com/watch?v=MC7H1rOU1Gg
this theme is so bitter in contrast to how Taka no Dan ended up

would this ever have happened though? he's a man of common birth. yes he was knighted, but that doesn't change his origins. to me his bedding of Charlotte was always kind of a "fuck it, i dont care anymore".

All i remember is boats and QAULITY. Berserk beyond the eclipse was a mistake.

I think at best he would be "the queen's husband" at worst they find another male relative to suceed the throne.

>innocent child
hardly something noteworthy considering the mountain of corpses that were piled up by HYW

except Adonis greatly reminded Guts of himself

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>was he evil?
i don't think so.
i would've done the same.

>he's not evil because i would have done the same
t. evil incel

only thing wrong he did was raping casca,had he just killed them I'd be pretty okay with it since they all decided to follow him and die for his dream

no
he was horrified by the fact he killed him and that's it
he didn't give a fuck after the whole speech since he thought griffith always recognized him as a friend which subsequently led to...

>owner of Guts' behelit
Casca, she'll fuck off to grifith's cock so he can give her another crippled child

nice post but the image is just too good

every goddamn time,kek

fugg

but user he even dreamed of being zodd and killing Gambino and his younger self after killing them

>Casca rehabilitation and her reunion with Guts
I hope they fugg like old times

>owner of Guts' behelit
Miura has had this in his pocket since ch. 1 he better do something good with it

>events leading up to taking down Griffith and Falconia
So long as he doesn't pull some lame shit like making guts the new king I'll be happy. I hope it gets a continuation or spin off, or an epilogue that shows the process of the country having to piece itself together. Then maybe it can reach old shool level of Berserk feel. It would probably have to be written by someone else though because Miura doesn't seem to have the jucie left to write much more quality and/or dark content

I haven't read Berserk in almost a decade and this thread is making me realize I missed a lot of nuance with Griffith and the whole of the Golden Age part as a teen

The teenager sees the demon. The adult sees that Griffith was right.

>childhood is realizing that Griffith is an edgelord
>adulthood is realizing that Griffith did nothing wrong
big cringe my dude

People think Casca and Guts will have a reunion...why? She appears to associate all of the trauma of the eclipse with Guts. It's been more than foreshadowed, the fairy queen tells him not to get his hopes up.

miuras dropped all the sad shit, this is a happy manga now

That's the same thing just more memey.

>That's the same thing
exactly
>just more memey
to highlight how dumb the post was

I think the real villain of Berserk is the thorn in Casca's heart.

Maybe Griffith had a good reason to do all he did. But that thorn don't go away. How would it? How could it?

Well yeah, that’s the whole thing.

His plan was working perfectly but he threw it all away in a tantrum when he lost Guts

Wait, wait, wait, who thinks Griffith is an edgelord?
If anything Guts is the edgelord.

as the manga goes on it goes into more and more happy-go-lucky jrpg shit. So I wouldn't put it above Miura to get them back togehter. at this point it'd be better than trying to shoehorn the "tortured Guts" narrative that's been long abandoned

>try to physically dominate your only friend who thinks you're not friends, who you want to stay with you, instead of talking to him and convincing him by the truth of your words
>get BTFO and ragefuck the princess because you're butthurt
>get all of Taka no Dan branded as outlaws, assassins sent after them
>blame others for all of this
>thank your rescuers by getting them caught in the Eclipse
>sacrifice them so you can become superhuman
>use your new powers to rape the shit out of your friends' love
he would be on Myspace to this day, taking emo selfies and complaining about everything ever if he was a real person

The '97 anime is everything you need.

based

this, except cringe

The Golden Age movies weren't terrible.

youtube.com/watch?v=8fRR-NbqTAM

He wasn't evil until he got his "wings". He made some evil decisions but he overall wasn't a evil person. If you want to call him evil for the stuff before that Guts can also be called evil. Most Berserk characters pre jrpg party are really grey area assholes.

Yes. Or atleast I believe when an action has literally no benefit other then to cause harm to another for pleasure it is evil. Same with other implications. The sacrifice itself was a grey area of evil that was painted as complete evil. The demons themselves were committing the evil and would've regardless. Griffiths major evil deed during the eclipse was raping Casca.

the movies were amazing as a self contained story. all that buildup until the descent. i wish they'd continue the movie series (there were supposed to be 9) but i'm kinda giving up hope since it's been 6 years since the third.
also, i don't know how you're going to top the unbridled kino of the golden age arc.

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youtube.com/watch?v=QGtJePjZe18
the HYW has ended! and the band of the hawk is solely responsible...