4k anime

Soul vs Soulless

>soulless
It's literally about sharpness and pixels on a screen, you retarded fuck.

>literally doesn't understand the concept of soul
Look at that fucking brainlet

It's a rescan of the frame.
Nobody really filters out grain.
You are seeing the frame as intended by the animators directly.

The grain, regardless of whether it's an unintended consequence of film photography or not, is part of the image. You do not remove parts of the image.

It's the exam same product with one version being upscaled

They do, actually. Most 4K Blu-ray remasters are degrained to some degree because it improves the compressibility as HEVC tends to smooth things out.

But they grain was the original unavoidable thing that removed part of the image. Animators back in the day didn't purposely put in grain.

Anybody arguing that the old scan is better is brain dead.

>You do not remove parts of the image
Thanks for allowing me to once more witness true autism on Yea Forums.

You can't even see the detail in the background.

M.D.Geist 4K HDR remaster when?

Attached: [A-FanRips]_Genmu_Senki_Leda_[H264_AC3]_[8379996F]_[v2].mkv_snapshot_01.00.27.149.png (960x720, 1.01M)

oh god delete this.

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Too much detail and flaws revealed.
Proper DVD remaster is still the best way to watch old anime

Bullshit.
They don't that kind of compression for modern physical media. that's what they do for damn youtube videos.
They keep it as AVI

There are also no artifacts here showing from degraining.
This was done by professionals with high quality film, there's almost never grain on the actual thing.
You are complaining that tech got better.

>flaws revealed
>flaws
>revealed
Were they supposed to be concealed? What the fuck is wrong with you

>4k hentai remasters
Yes

>High Quality remastered 80s animes
Yes.

Attached: Dangaioh 001.jpg (1439x2182, 431K)

>tfw Dangaioh's third episode got wrecked in an earthquake and we'll never see it in high quality
It hurts
Same shit happened to my favorite episode of Eva

Did they put Waifu2X on these or something?

waifux2 looks nothing like that. They obviously remastered the scene by going back to the original cels.
Look at how the background detail is actually visible now in OP's post.

>Animes
>Thinks Dangaioh is good
Are you the same faggot who keeps posting ">He doesn't watch 80s aesthetic animes"?

>Escaflowne in 4K
My body is ready
What was the plot of this again? Something something Sara

Attached: 12.png (1439x1079, 3.13M)

the cels the anime was originally drawn on basically have infinite resolution due to being made with physical media. back in the day, the cameras they used to photograph these cels were shit. This is why we can now use better cameras for much higher quality of this old stuff.

>infinite resolution

It was about an alternative world with magic and the MC arriving in our world to rescue a girl who was kidnapped by a god entity and locked in a painting.

Attached: shamanic-princess-dvd-complete-collection-hyb.jpg (711x1000, 711K)

That's why you'll see good bluray/4k of older anime but shit made ~2000-2014 or so will always be up-scaled since nips were lazy and most of the time don't have the original files to go back and "remaster" so they upscale from poor low rez shit.

For the most part it isn't infinite resolution. For most movies done on 35mm, depending on film quality, usually 4k-8k restore is good but anything above that is not doable. Hand made animation I would imagine depending on the quality can probably see good results in the same realm, 1080-4k or so.

>80s and 90s gore in 4K
My body isn't ready

>Thinks Dangaioh is bad
Are you a r/anime or MAL user?

Oh you are that guy, can you please stop making those fucking awful threads?

Man, Shamanic Princess was kind of ahead of its time

youre not watching in on CRT so its bound to be different anyway

How so? You mean reverse isekai?

Attached: Tiara-shamanic-princess-5184631-576-583.jpg (576x583, 64K)

35mm is not 8K. That's 70mm, and even that's pushing it. Just because there's more grain to resolve the higher resolution you go doesn't mean there's more detail.

How is cel not hand made animation?

I strongly doubt they went all the way back to the cels, it's far more likely they just rescanned the film.

OLED is vastly superior to CRT, old man.

Is this more AI shit?

pic related
Might be just youtube smoothing in the promo video. You know, youtube, a shit, ruined the whole anime.

Attached: Flash ep 14.jpg (720x524, 116K)

Stupid argument when smoothing the grain makes stuff look worse. It adds crucially needed texture to flat color areas, period.

You have shitty chroma upscaling in your player's screnshotting code, her hair should not be pixelated.
That's my peeve since 2007 RAAARRRRGH.

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nice bait retard

Attached: Shin Cutey Honey - Episode 1 [OnDeed] [160A83CB].mkv_snapshot_16.39_[2015.06.13_16.45.06].png (1440x1080, 1.8M)

If they're rescanning cels I'm fine with that but we've had rescans of film for forever and they run them through shitty filters to try and remove the grain and it usually looks like shit. But it's almost impossible to rescan cels because they usually get rid of them in some way, like you can buy original cels from shows. I'm sure they can do it for some shows but I'd say more than half you really can't. I have a hard time believing these cashgrab remasters would bother going back and digitally filming the cels.

retard, anime was not made for CRT. It's not even interlaced, the film material is glorious progressive, it's just old transfers and media fucking it all up.

You can't rescan cels, they are not complete fields, the very animation was done by assembling stuff with them manually.
It would mean redoing lots of the thing anew, not to mention lighting effects and other sfx.

Rescanning the film is the correct way.

Attached: shin2.jpg (1440x1080, 209K)

>Rescanning the film is the correct way.
Except they fuck it up nearly every time by filtering it to hell and back.

Separate issue. The same Attitude would make them do that to a hypothetical cel-scan redo, too.

Anyone has sample chroma scale pictures to check screens? I lost all the good references with my old HDD.

There wouldn't be any grain to filter if they refilmed the cels because they would do it digitally.

>Washed out 75% NTSC
No problem

>No grain
Unforgivable!

You people are retarded. The less you see on screen the happier you are.

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>The less you see on screen the happier you are
That's funny because you literally lose detail when you remove grain. Is your first point talking about VEG? Because everyone shits on VEG for it being so washed out.

No. Try to scan a painting, the paper scanned from close distance gives similar textury look as grain does, as it gives when you view it directly.
The grain look is correct for this reason. Though it should preferably be fine and not too coarse. Coarse 16mm/compressed grain is usually preferable to compeltely blurred/smoothed look though.

You're talking about the texture of the medium though right? Do cels have that kind of texture inherently? I've seen some images of cels and if that kind of texture was there I didn't really see it. But then it might be because grain and stuff doesn't bother me and it might not have stuck out to me.

It doesn't really matter, I cannot watch youtube without h264ify, when is firefox fixing this shit.

Firefox has faster VP9 decoding than crhome, thanks to FFVP9? What's the problem with FF?

What you call detail, I call background noise. Did you not know how incredibly color inaccurate NTSC broadcasts were? It wasn't until S-Video became standardized that they could even hope for color accuracy.

You're deluding yourself if you think animators took into account film grain the same way a painter considers sheen and canvas texture. There was no way to appreciate grain in the intended displays at 576i.

B-but MUH grain.

>There was no way to appreciate grain in the intended displays at 576i.
Those TVs could not be used to appreciate anything.

>What you call detail, I call background noise.
You're arguing from the standpoint of what the broadcast looks like. Scanning the film at 1080p or 4k is nothing like the scans they did for SD television or VHS release. If you put the 1080p/4k film scan through a denoiser you're eliminating detail. It's usually not as bad as those completely smoothed live action (like Predator) movies or those bad DBZ ones but it's still bad. People try and say it's to emulate what the cels look like but it doesn't do that and that isn't the reason the studios do it in the first place. It's done so it'll sell more to people like you that don't care what the resulting video looks like as long as it doesn't have the "background noise" that hurts your eyes so much.

The one on the right is sharper, but the one on the left just looks more realistic.

Grain haters ITT and everywhere just secretly hate downloading bigger encodes and are salty about it. But they are too ashamed to admit that so they rant about grain not belonging into the picture.

Attached: best gril.png (714x527, 590K)

You wouldn't know what a "soul" is even if it hits your head.

I only download encodes with grain added.

Firefox forced VP9 just in one of his recent updates and since then videos on youtube don't load anymore for me, h264 fixed it.

>If you are a noise lover or don’t mind it, you have already the excelent release of THORA.
But, if you are like me, and noise hurt you as much as rubbing sand in your eyes, this release may interest you.

Grainfags are mentally damaged.

I've still got archive stuff in 480 and 360, I don't give a fuck.

>people who want the original picture preserved are mentally damaged
>not the people who want everything filtered to hell and back until everything is a blurry blob of color

Cry more.

nostalgia colored glasses sure is cringe

Take off your nostalgia glasses.

beware of opening this grainfags, nsfw

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Yeah, no. Your holy grain sucks and will continue to suck.

4k Utena release when?

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>textury look as grain does
user, we are talking about animation, moving pictures, not a fucking painting

I think this looks great.

>people who don't want this are mentally damaged

Attached: swordinstonebluray1.jpg (1280x720, 120K)

>the original picture
Degraining is literally the closer thing to the actual cel you fucking faggot

>cherrypicking

not anime you retarded faggot

The closest**

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There isnt anything inherently wrong with a little bit of blur and sharpen. Its when you go too far that it becomes an issue. The image in the OP seems to be pretty decent.

No it isn't. You faggots keep saying this but if you compared the shitty degrained picture to actual cels you'd see they don't look similar. The fact is that the only way to film the cels when they were used was on film, which includes grain. It would be nice to do it digitally so there is no grain, but you can't just run the picture through a shitty filter and expect it to not ruin the picture. The only way you could get what was intended without grain would be to digitally refilm the cels which isn't going to happen.

It's the same thing regardless of if the product is from Japan or not.

i hate that fucking guy

What nostalgia dude? That's completely irrelevant, it's the simple matter of what looks better if you look at it now. Not some [Exiled-Destiny] or Youtube rip.

youtube.com/watch?v=F83S5kC9nIY

They can't rescan the original cels because most of them were thrown away or sold to specialty shops; most celluloid remasters are new transfers from the finished master copy, which in most cases was captured in 16mm and 35mm film. And if you can't tell the difference between a shitty upscale and a proper transfer, you should get your eyes checked immediately.

Attached: fuIdOvvXzdnRagSRqJkT.png (1868x1078, 2.46M)

>And if you can't tell the difference between a shitty upscale and a proper transfer, you should get your eyes checked immediately.
I can but there aren't very many "proper transfers" because a proper transfer to me is when they don't put it through a million fuck you filters to destroy the image. I imagine movies aren't as bad but TV series almost always go through this.

souless

Literally happened because it was a botched job to begin with. They flat out admitted how lazily they worked on it.

OK. wait a MINUTE!

Attached: initial d.png (1440x1080, 2.68M)

What release is that?

Attached: [SHIZA Project] Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam TV [22 of 50] [RUS JAP] [1488x1080 H264] [Azazel][00:07:25]0 (1488x1080, 1.45M)

God that's painful; that's what happens when the jew accountants will only pay for a new transfer in DVD resolution because who needs to worry about future transfers, tho D-VHS was already a thing. Then resort to upscaling that transfer instead of paying for yet another transfer because their shortsighted jewish ways. Walt was right.

Look how beautiful this looks with no grain. Look at all that clear and crisp detail. It's like I'm looking directly at the cels.

what is grain?

Yes because some examples of a thing are done poorly it means ALL examples of said thing are bad! Stop cherrypicking.

How do you think they make the cels, man. On ipads?

I can unanimously and without exception tell you that filtering out parts of an image is a bad thing even if it doesn't look as terrible as the worst examples. There's no reason to do it outside of making sure retards like you won't complain about the "noise that makes my eyes hurt". It's entirely a business decision at the expense of art.

But film grain objectively makes things look better.

Attached: [philosophy-raws][Kite][MOVIE][BDRIP][Hi10P FLAC][1444X1080][00:15:04]001.png (1444x1080, 2.05M)

>grain
>art
This is getting more insane as the thread grows

here's your surface blur BRO.

Attached: kite v2.png (1444x1080, 1.58M)

>waifu2x upscaled to 4K

The finished art includes grain. If you don't want the grain, go back and refilm the cels digitally (though you can't as people have said in this thread). But taking the finished art (the film on which the cels were shot) and removing parts of the image is destroying the art.

I actually kinda like it. It looks nice

Please retard kun. You bait image is not at all representative of what the show actually looked like.

Attached: 1298743597123574254.png (1920x1080, 2.19M)

THIS is how I watch MY anime

Attached: REALANIME.png (1920x1080, 2.94M)

And that is a matter of taste and an opinion. Many people will see a touched up image that isnt raped and dragged through a vat of polishing compound to look better. A tasteful and mild denoising isnt a huge deal. Its when you get to situations like that it becomes bullshit.

>all those clueless contrarians that want to have their own post too

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>grain is good
LMAO

Leda is going to get just a regular bluray, IIRC? Not a 4K release, just a 4K master -> 1080p release.

Still a great thing.

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Iria and Gall Force (those didn't even have a decent SD release) would be great too.

Attached: Gspot_023.jpg (3419x4655, 1.77M)

ZetaRebel, which in turn uses the NAOKI-Raws release, because I am NOT a NOISE LOVER

Attached: ハロとクワトロ.png (1492x1080, 1.14M)

>That lineart
Is that fuckage in the encode or in the source (upscale?)

HxH 99 BD release when?

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God that looks like shit. Maybe it would look better in motion. Even the not as filtered Zeta stuff looks bad because the blurays themselves are already filtered.

That does not look so good. Aren't there any proofreaders, or whatever the visual equivalent is? Editors? Is no-one flying the plane?
Hell, that stuff like this is going to replace the earlier versions.

They redrew Doctor Who episodes from old people’s memories and blurry taped home recordings that are 40 years old. They can redraw one episode

It's looks shit. I literally downloaded another release because I couldn't stand it anymore. The only good degrained release I've watched and is unironically good as fuck is the 0079 release from the "noise hurts my eyes" guy.

Attached: アムロ.png (1440x1080, 881K)

Escaflowne already looks really good. 4K is needed for older anime that are still in SD

Not only are the details lost, but the colors are so fucked. That encode is a disgrace.

I will be honest though, Zeta's BD is not the best because it was the first Gundam remaster.

Attached: [SHIZA Project] Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam TV [47 of 50] [RUS JAP] [1488x1080 H264] [Azazel][00:22:17]0 (1488x1080, 1.46M)

Good 1080p is a good step too. And probably much more needed than the step from 1080p to 2160p.

they remastered a copy of the master film, not the actual film master itself.

Oh right, warpsharp
Figures.
>2005 called, it wants to shit into your eyes again

Belladonna of Sadness got a 4k rescan but the publisher only released a 1080. I hope they release a 4k later.

Attached: bright is that guy from ebichu.png (1440x1080, 1.31M)

4k is sharper, but don't like the colors

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No you are.
Think of grain like an operable tumor. You imagine to yourself that you're only remove it but in reality normal tissue is lost during surgery.
That's the problem with dnr. Your fantasy is that you're just losing the grain but meanwhile in objective reality your aren't.
You may as well just scan 35mm at 2k if you're going to dnr it to death.

Attached: Kanashimi.no.Beradonna.aka.Belladonna.of.Sadness.1973.1080p.BluRay.Remux.AVC.DTS.HD-MA.2.0.mkv_snaps (1251x1080, 3.38M)

with subs? where?

Those are legit, the remaster DVD does look like that and it matches the concept art.

Attached: robot_carnival.png (1920x1080, 3.11M)

Why don't companies use scan at the max optical resolution they have available with their hardware (1200+DPI) and then release updated releases as storage media becomes better (dual-layer UHDs, etc). Or maybe they already do that.

Pre-HD era animation was limited to SD resolutions aka something like 480p.

Why would anyone buy fake upscaled 4k?

It's going to look like ass.

with post 1998 digital animation

If any of you guys use mpv as your player you do realize that it's default "hq" profile adds artificial grain while upscaling right?
Likely never because it's 16mm.
This is a good example of the problem without being comical exaggeration via cherry picking.
20 year old children don't understand analog and they project what they know about digital video onto it. It's the source of most problems because they carry with them some vehement opinions that are just plain factually wrong.

>that one OVA that everyone forgot about and thus has no chance of ever getting a re-release

Attached: [LD 640x480]Ozanari Dungeon 1 V.2 (Macross2012)[B1C1D7E3].mkv_snapshot_04.41_[2015.09.02_18.44.36].j (640x480, 36K)

It depends on what the master they're using is. A lot of TV series are on 16mm film and it's not really worth scanning them at 4k. It's probably more expensive to scan at 4k too so outside of rare instances (CCS and CCA for instance is what I know about) I think most stuff is scanned at 1080p and then released like that rather than scanned at 4k and downscaled for release at 1080p. Even rarer are actual 4k releases because I don't think 4k blurays have caught on still. And having the detail from 4k or higher I think is less important in animation than it is in live action stuff. At most you'll get slightly more defined lineart.

>I don't understand how film works

What's really tragic is all the anime that come from the early 00's that were entirely digital. No chance of 4ks for those because they'd have to be upscales which will look terrible.

Good thing most of them are trash

It was fucking lucky that Macross2012 did that decent LD cap.

I've seen 4k anime releases becoming more common. Mary and the Witch, Char's Counterattack, etc.

Unless you're going to claim Initial D was shot with a 8mm camera, that's nothing more than a shitty low budget upscaled VHS transfer. Add all the grain you want, but it's still not going to enhance those blurry lines. And even if it was shot in 8mm, which I doubt, 8mm is still good for a 1000 vertical lines. All that shitty line blur and missing detail comes from using a inferior source material.

Attached: enjoy your gain kid.jpg (1440x1080, 2.1M)

I was just watching Blame in dolby vision on my A9F.
mind blowing experience

>adding grain
Is this what anti-grain people think others want? I just want them to fucking scan the film and leave it.

At least your OVA wasn’t a lead into a series that never happened and the creator just did a disappointing racing movie later

If some series used heavy grain this season the same people defending it currently would shit on it.
Fuck off ‘old anime good’ fags.

You know where you get similar grain aesthetics? mid tier streaming sites.

See
Digital is inherently grainless. I'd be all for filming cels digitally but that isn't going to happen. But the grain is already there for older stuff shot on film so I don't want it removed at the expense of picture quality. Adding grain to digital is retarded. So is adding grain to anime that has been released after being put through a grain removal filter. The grain isn't the issue. The issue is what is removed from the picture with the grain. Ideally there would be no grain but the solution isn't to remove grain from older anime where grain was inherent in the way it was made.

See above

>All that shitty line blur and missing detail comes from using a inferior source material.
This is about as true as the average earth is secretly flat and nasa is lying to you videos on youtube.
>I don't understand analog video
>I don't know what a noise floor is
>please get angry
Why are you samefagging a nearly dead thread so hard?

Are people trolling or genuinely retarded? Do people even know what grain is? By removing grain you are removing detail from the image, flat out.

Grain is not an aesthetic choice, it was a limitation of the medium. People defending grain aren't asking for grain because of the grain itself, they are asking for grain because to remove it is to scrub the image of fine detail.

Grain is camera lense imperfections. The "details" are born from camera lense imperfections. Adding grains to digital anime is something dumb retards do to make it "aesthetic." Removing grains from old anime is done to make the anime art more picture clear.

removing grain from old anime cannot be done without sacrificing fine detail. You are filtering the image.

They want to be elitist and defend shit quality just because it’s old.

Read the post again retard. Removing grain is a bad thing.

>Grain is camera lense imperfections
So you don't understand what you're talking about. Grain is because of the film itself. It has nothing to do with the camera or the way the camera captures images. Removing grain doesn't make the picture more clear. It makes everything blurrier and removes detail.

Modern computers are good enough to remove it without any loss of detail.

If anything the image improves because you removed all the noise from it.

So it's
>removing grain bad
>adding grain also bad

Degraining algorithms removes "fine" details but those are very minor. While the grain itself is a massive imperfection/distraction that retards see as part of the "detail." That's the problem.

Its like a dollar bill covered in shit vs cleaned up dollar bill but some of the details are now scrubbed off.

Which is better? I certainly don't like to touch shitty dollar bills, but others consider it an artform.

You are false.

>Grain is camera lense imperfections
>lense
Yeah no, try again.

You are fundamentally altering the integrity of the image. If you can't handle the film stock aesthetic than stick to digital animation.

there are literally people that add film grain to their videos and then try to use noise reduction

Yes. Grain was a limitation for the time and has no place today unless you are intentionally going for a vintage aesthetic. On the other hand, once grain is inherent to the image it is impossible to degrain without DESTROYING the image.

Languages evolve dumbass. Lense is now perfectly fine.

It's impossible to remove parts of an image without removing detail. At most they could remove it then go back and replace it with stuff added later but at that point you're just drawing over the image.

Adding grain is never good. Grain wasn't added to old anime, it was inherent in the way it was produced because of the cels being put to film through being filmed with a camera.

Your dollar bill analogy is retarded and doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about. Film grain is more akin to the texture of the material money is made from but I can't think of a proper analogy for removing the texture of money outside of completely remaking it using a different material.

Languages evolving has nothing to do with you attributing grain to part of the production process that doesn't have anything to do with grain.

>a limitation
It wasn't a limitation though? It was a product of using actual FILM.

The debate here isn't "limitations" it's really just a difference of medium altogether.

Attached: [philosophy-raws][Kite][MOVIE][BDRIP][Hi10P FLAC][1444X1080][00:32:08]001.png (1444x1080, 1.62M)

But that's exactly how grains are formed dumbass. Imbalance of lighting + dust in the air causes the film cameras to take pictures of a grainy image. Higher grain = lower quality work environment.

Stop pretending to be retarded.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_grain

>dust in the air
It's more like dust on the film but not exactly. Though I guess having a dirty filming environment could cause more shit to be on the film. If shit floating around in the air caused grain then it would cause it with digital cameras too. The grain is caused by the film not being able to be completely clear of tiny imperfections. Heavier grain is also caused by low quality film stock. Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that the grain is there and removing it damages the picture.

Grains are THE damage to the picture. Removal of it the grains is called "restoration."

That's not film grain. You are thinking of actual filming imperfections like hairs or scratches on the film, something most Pro-Grainers are in support of removing.

Film Grain is inherent to film stock itself. The silver in the film is reflective and produces the effect. Incidental scratches and dust can be removed carefully BY HAND without sacrificing the integrity of the image. Criterion does a wonderful job with this. Digital Noise removal is an automated process that removes all sorts of visual artifacts automatically, but also alters the content of the image, giving it a smeary, less detailed look.

The only reason why DNR is used is because it's cheaper. Stop defending bad restoration practices because of your ignorance.

How do you remove dust, hair etc on the cells without removing detail?

I'm not a languagefag, you were just completely off

Restoration might be fine by me but it would have to be done manually. Just throwing something through an algorithm is going to cause issues. But doing it by hand would be too expensive and offset the amount of money expected from these cashgrabs.

Removing stuff like hair or scratches on the film also involve removing things from the finished product. It would probably be better to remove significant damage, if they're going to do it manually (like is done with actually good restorations of live action films, though some I've seen put damaged frames as is, like the most recent Metropolis, the 20s film, remaster) but again, just throwing stuff through an algorithm is going to negatively affect the picture.

Read this post:

If they were on cels, you can't, they were shot on the film. You generally use temporal filtesr with mocomp to substitute the area from adjacent frames, but you would have to mask very well or else the same filter kills lots of details.

Usually they take the previous and next frames and approximate the frame they are on (Cel animation was photographed frame by frame).

Not every bit can be removed, but most can utilizing this technique.

youtube.com/watch?v=Pk6s_Ac2uYk

>manually restore >30K images
Are you retarded?

not every frame needs restoration.

Every frame would have grains/noises. So if you want a "perfect" restoration job, you'd need to do 30K+ images for each anime episode.

It's on the cels. It moves and sticks around for long while each film frame is only visible for a split second.

I manually fixed about 300 frames on one OVA. It's crazy but it's doable with some budget (or when you are crazy and do it in free time).

Attached: 1468561828210.png (158x173, 22K)

Removing grain is not a perfect restoration. Grain is inherent to the image.
see

Just use state of the art AI and and have it redraw the frames in full 8k.

M.D GEIST 4k WHEN?

Attached: Geist.jpg (400x302, 128K)

Sometimes. Lots of it is usually on the film which can be cleaned. Some dust on the cels isn't particularly bad tho, it's definitely worth killing everything by the usual-sort-of DNR.

And this is why "restored" anime is always going to be shit. They don't want to put in the effort or spend the money while restorations of live action stuff (at least older stuff that will appeal to film historians and such) are done lovingly by hand to get the best possible result. But they also don't remove the grain so they don't have to spend all that time on every frame scrubbing the image of detail.

If you want to do something do it right. I don't want the grain removed but the only way to do it without destroying the image would be to do it manually.

Grains is the imperfections captured on picture. To restore the picture to perfect quality as the original artist intended, you need to remove the grains.

Grain cannot be removed without sacrificing the integrity of the image. It is inherent to film stock which is the medium utilized at the time. A grainy, accurate and detailed image is better than a clean, smeared and blurry image.

The artists were aware that their cels were going to be filmed with film. Unfortunately cels and digital filming never really coincided. At least with good digital. Something like Turn A used cels and had some digital parts to it but they're noticeably lower quality than the scanned film parts.

Grainy images are already compromising on the integrity of the image and its VERY visible to the naked eye to the point that it fools people like you into thinking "this is how the anime should be."

(not who you were replying to but anyway)
Nice theory faggot but do it and the image looks ass. So I don't do that when encoding because I'm hetero and actually have some sense for art.

Two "wrongs" don't make a right. You can always remove detail in your own encode if you wish to scrub it clean. You can't add back lost detail.

Unfortunately your "sense of art" has fooled you into thinking grainy images are quality image. So you're the faggot.

You don't understand what DNR actually does.

>grainy with preserved detail vs blurry with detail removed

To go back to the original example.

Some people like their dollar dipped in shit, they call it "perfect dollar bill as god intended."

Others want to clean that shit up and with the possibility that it might remove some details that are not readily apparent to the naked eye.

Some anime productions were really dirty. Back when it was produced for low quality tube TVs they didn't care if there's pubic hair all over the picture because nobody could see it back then.
Sometimes the camera would also move out of focus and similar shit we have to live with nowadays. I recall Nadia being really bad in that regard.

Yes right, faggot. How many cel animes have you encoded btw?

Your analogy is inaccurate and silly. Some people want their paintings to be presented as originally drawn. Some want them smeared around so you can't see the brush strokes.

To go back to my response to your original example

Film grain is more like the material the dollar bill is made of.

Pic related. This can't be removed with DNR though.

Attached: MacrossCamera.jpg (1440x1080, 730K)

This is why I watch my analogue television anime on my CRT in 480i as originally broadcast. The film wasn't meant to be presented like this.

>grainy image
>originally drawn

Yup. You're not rescanning the cels digitally (which would be an impossible endeavor for almost any anime production), so you're taking the original scans as they are without smearing the lineart detail away. Just as originally produced.

Do you also watch your anime films in a theatre as projected from a film projector as they were originally intended? Japan made so many compilation movies you could see the difference between the TV broadcast and the film actually projected from a projector. Take Gundam 0079 as an example. These days you can get something similar (not exactly because most of the grain was scrubbed) in quality to the movie versions from the TV version. The fact that these compilation movies were made kind of discounts your entire point since people would have seen parts of the TV broadcast in bluray-ish quality when they watched the compilation movies in theatres. Or look at Gunbuster too. It was released on VHS and laserdisc, which wouldn't have been very good quality, but then you could have went and seen the movie cut in theatres projected on film and seen the difference in quality between the home release and theatre version. Broadcast and VHS releases were done purely because of technical limitation but that doesn't discount that film scales up really well and people would have seen the difference back in the 80s.

Just because you don't see the artifacting doesn't mean most people wont. DNR is actually extremely obvious.

What exactly is reflecting the camera?

>Do I watch in a theater
No. Would if I could. That goes on the OLED.

>Compilation movies negate your point
Nope. Different productions, different products, not nearly every anime got a theatrical version.

You realize that you changed the "originally drawn" to "originally scanned" and then to "originally produced" right?

And you realize that grain, an artifact, an imperfection, an destruction of the original art, is VERY obvious/visible to 100% of the people with 20/20 vision right?

cels are placed under glass

You can spot the oilpaint look that denoising causes easily on a cheap LCD user, so leave that strawman where you found it

BTW Im not even a grain enthusiast, I have no problem to weaken it a bit if it is too strong, but when you smooth it all away like most shit encoders do, it just makes the anime look bad. Texture is needed.

You are never seeing the originally drawn image in any cel anime. You are seeing a photocopy of the drawing, which in turn was probably a redone cleanup of the original.

And normally the camera isn't visible because it's not lit?

Production staff of Television anime would have checked the final cut on a television. The limitations of television were taken into account at all stages of production. Designs, photography, ignoring flaws in the image etc.

The glossiness of the cel I imagine.

>Different productions, different products
The Gundam compilation movies had added scenes but the majority of scenes were straight from the TV series. The Gunbuster compilation was just a recut. Might have had added scenes too but most was the same stuff. Macross Plus got a movie version too which was again mostly reused footage. Not every anime got a theatrical version but people would have seen the difference in quality between things aired on TV and what they saw in theatres. Especially if it's basically the same thing.

I'm arguing for not removing grain. Not sure what you're replying to me for.

You're right, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a night and day difference between SD TV airings and actually projecting the 16mm/35mm film. Even with Gundam 0079 taking into account what it would be airing on it still looks much better on bluray. It would look even better if they didn't insist on filtering it to shit.

The bluray was a fucking disaster. Just look at the parts with saturated red blood showing, the compression artifacts are low rate MPEG-2 tier.

So? It's the product as originally released and intended. They could not have intended it any other way.

Grain is inherent to the image of this kind of production, if grain isn't to your taste, then shows from this era of production isn't to your taste. Grain is obvious, it's also not a problem. Smearing an image 20 or more years after the fact, is.

The fact is, the only reason grains exist in old cel anime is due to technological problems, not because the artists intended their anime to be unwatchable mess of grainy shit. They did their best to keep their camera room clean of shit to reduce the grain as much as possible before hand. If digital degrain technology of today existed back in the 80s/90s, the animators would surely have gone that route and reduced the grainy anime as much as possible.

The fact that you fags keep arguing that the grainy anime is the "best" possible outcome today is retarded.

The artists certainly intended their anime to be an unwatchable mess of blurry shit.

>They did their best to keep their camera room clean of shit to reduce the grain as much as possible before hand
Oh, you're the retard that doesn't know what film grain is.

Absolutely not. See The claim that the anime producers wanted grainy shit is the stupidest claim in this thread so far.

Film Grain has nothing to do with a dirty production environment. If you consider it unwatchable that's your issue, not the shows as originally produced. Your fantasy of the animators agreeing with you has no verifiable basis in fact.

You can always degrain after the fact, you can never restore lost detail. Restoration should not use DNR.

>I'm arguing for not removing grain. Not sure what you're replying to me for.
Oh, I didn't read the whole thing, thought it was the anti-grain pretending-to-be-retarded user.

how fucking dumb are you dude rofl

This make peepee VERY big

You don't know what film grain is.

See
and

>Your fantasy of the animators agreeing with you has no verifiable basis in fact
Every animator has switched to digital for good reason. All anime today are without grain, except through post process effects some use to add grain to it as "aesthetic" quality.

Switching to digital has very little to do with artists avoiding the visual aesthetics of film and much more to do with the logistics of physical ink and paint.

You have no basis in fact.

There are absolutely cases where grain was completely intentional. This shot from End of Evangelion is a particularly useful example, since it was recycled from episode 25 of the TV series, where it's significantly less grainy.

Attached: vlcsnap-2019-05-06-21h46m12s313.png (1920x1080, 2.62M)

>for good reason
It was financial reasons, user. Digital much cheaper than hand painting.

So why don't they add grain to all the digital anime today if grain was such a good thing?

Dumbass

Attached: Dennou.Coil.full.478011.jpg (1275x2000, 1.46M)

Because adding grain to a digital is an additional step that adds no objective value, only an aesthetic one.

Conversely, removing grain from a scan originally produced with film stock smears the image and removes fine detail.

Grain itself is not what makes the image better, it's the fact that the grain hasn't been scrubbed away that makes it better.

>if grain was such a good thing?
Why can't you understand that grain is merely a product of using film, it's not an aesthetic choice. Digital animation doesn't use film, therefore there is no grain.

Imagine being so autistic a small level of visual noise prevents you from enjoying a film. Imagine thinking smearing the image around is the better choice.

Attached: 1554564397287.jpg (558x614, 18K)

Then we go back to the shitty dollar example. Removal of shit from dollar bill vs enjoy handling the shit covered dollar.

False equivalence.

Your retarded analogy crumbles under any kind of scrutiny. Speak objectively, address the points presented or concede.

I-I got that reference.

see

THING I NO LIKE IS POO PEE
THING I DO LIKE IS NO POO PEE
HAHA CHECKMATE

>Yes. Grain was a limitation for the time and has no place today
kill yourself subhuman.

Mardock Scramble, eh.
They actually do it quite often. For the same reason you want it on cel anime encodes: it makes the flat regious look better. Hint: banded gradients.

Elaborate.

If new anime was filmed with film then the grain should be there. But digital has no grain and there's no reason to add grain to digital. The only people advocating for added grain are probably those 80s aesthetic shitposters.

It's more like, grain should be left untouched if the anime was shot on film. No one is saying we should be putting grain on digital anime.

>But digital has no grain and there's no reason to add grain to digital.
It can be a legit effect or postprocessing. Dirty picture is more "real" to human eye based on some psychologic research, I recall from university.

>No one is saying we should be putting grain on digital anime.
Several anti-grain retards are rubbing their two braincells together in this thread trying to figure out why people want grain in old anime but not in new anime.

Just to clarify, you are the fringe and do not represent the vast majority of Pro-Grainers

watched the blu-ray of Demon City Shinjuku yesterday. It was glorious, but I noticed some reflections from the scanning process. Made me kek because it completely took me out of the movie just like those single penis frames in Fight Club.

Attached: laughinghaman.gif (346x261, 1.49M)

Can someone give me a less autistic rundown on why HD remasters are such a bad thing without using the words "soul" or "soulless"?

>If new anime was filmed with film then the grain should be there. But digital has no grain and there's no reason to add grain to digital.
Accepted and agreed but also

People think grain = good. So when HD remasters appear without grain, they think HD remasters = bad. Dumb people confuse grain with quality rather than anti-quality.

The only anime I've seen that does something similar is G-Reco. It's not exactly grain but it does have some texture filter added in some places. But I think adding grain is the same bullshit as video games adding dust to your screen or chromatic abberation. I hate it.

Because they're put through tons of filters that ruin the image. All a remaster should do is scan the film at a high resolution. Some scans need some color processing too but they insist on scrubbing the image as much as possible to make it blurry as shit because apparently people prefer blur to grain.

Attached: gundam-reconguista-in-g-gundam-g-no-reconguista-g-self-jahannam-landing-holding-on-beach[1].jpg (1920x1080, 176K)

People who want to strip the grain out of old shows are probably the same people who hate honorifics and think localization is better than translation.

Blurs are natural result of motion/animation. Blurs don't look good on still frames. Grains look good on still frames because they "retain" the details, but does badly on animation.

Since we're discussing animation rather than still picture restoration, blur > grain.

>age of DNR

HD remasters are not a bad thing inherently. Through the proper techniques they can be wonderful new ways to see older films.

The major issue is that analogue film stock has a reflective dye that creates a small amount of visual noise in the production process, known as grain. Nowadays we work digitally, so we have no grain. Because modern audiences are now unused to grain, many "restoration teams" utilize a process called digital noise removal" to remove the grain. Unfortunately this process also effects the image aside from the grain, giving it a smeared/blurry look. Sometimes even erasing entire lines from animation!

A proper remaster should remove dirt and hairs by hand when appropriate, and to leave the image as accurate as it was originally produced, with grain.

People who want grain are the same racist people who are anti-science/technology because technology removes grains and promotes clearer insight into the nature of big bang physics.

Blur caused by DNR has nothing to do with motion blur or whatever the fuck you're talking about. Motion blur in animation isn't even caused by the camera like in live action films. It has to be drawn into the image.

None of what you've said is remotely accurate so I don't even know where to begin to argue with you.

I can't decide if we're being trolled or we have a sperglord on our hands.

When you pitch a fit like that, all you're doing is telling me that I hit the nail on the head.

The brain recognizes motion in generalized sense, thus details are lost and only general movements are kept as basis. That's because we operate on pattern recognitions not detail oriented recognition. When we miss something from our sight, our brain fills in the gap. When something moves from left to right, we fill in the gap of the future estimate and espections. Our brain always does this pattern recognitions that details are only apparent when its a still image. For movement, our brains can only process in patterns. That's why things like animation/films are even a thing. We don't see distinct detailed images when we watch anime/movies, we see smooth motions.

That has nothing to do with blurring every frame in an image. This isn't motion blur, it's a blurring of each individual frame, like putting a camera out of focus.

Are you insane?

>penis frames in Fight Club
>me googles it up
>wait the fuck?! Brad Pitt was not real?!!! WTF!?
Man I wonder how old I was when I saw that back then. I guess that could explain it.

This whole paragraph has nothing to do with anything. You were talking about motion blur but full image blur caused by DNR has nothing to do with motion blur and there is actual motion blur in movies caused by the camera. Animation generally uses smear frames to give a similar effect. Neither of these are related to the brain filling in motion and are things added into the images that are going by at 24 fps to better link each frame to the next frame.

>Since we're discussing animation rather than still picture restoration, blur > grain.
What a load of nonsense you keep spewing here. You trolling aka pretending to be retarded, or what?

Attached: no.png (720x527, 483K)

film enthusiasts:
>maybe we should preserve and restore films as originally released?

anti-grainers:
>THE BRAIN FILLS IN THE GAPS OF BLUR
>SHIT SMEARED DOLLARS
>IF YOU LIKE GRAIN SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU ADD IT TO DIGITAL?

Baby don't hurt me.

>This is about as true as the average earth is secretly flat and nasa is lying to you videos on youtube.
VHS has a resolution of 333×480, retard. It is infinitely inferior to the original film transfer, which would have been captured at a bare minimum of 8mm film. And quite honestly, nothing from the 80s should be captured in 8mm film, even Dragon Ball was captured in 16mm film. Which is a fact that you can google.

VHS 333×480
bluray 1920x1080
8mm film 900 vertical lines
16mm film 1800 vertical lines
35mm film

You are a fucking idiot. Suck my dick, you dumb fuck.

>placebofags
>MIGRAINE

>actual watchers
>lets remove these grainy images so we can actually see the difference between characters and backgrounds rather than this noisy image where distinctions between the two are blurred

Yes exactly.

Screw the camera, anyone knows how they achieved such convincing DoF back then?

Didn't read. Not even memeing.
A good first step if you want me to read your post is having the video source right. It's not VHS so whatever you wrote is irrelevant.

Get your eyes checked.

>people arguing grain was not a limitation of technology and implying its a sign of quality
LMAO

There is no anime where the grain is so bad you can't distinguish characters. Even the VHS versions aren't that bad and having a bluray release with grain would still be much, much better. What you're talking about doesn't even affect live action film either, which is more likely to have the grain left alone.

Attached: 1964 - Dr. Strangelove.mkv_snapshot_00.26.25.459.jpg (1792x1080, 782K)

Said nobody ever

>early VHS aren't that bad
You never owned VHS. Don't lie. VHS problems with grain was the least of the problem. Heck, if you saw grainy images on VHS, it meant VHS was working properly. When it didn't work properly, it was a shit show.

Leaving it there is a sign of a quality remaster.

It's both. It's an intrinsic part of animation created with old technology, and trying to remove it degrades the quality.

Yeah you're an idiot. Seriously.

I know that. I'm just saying that it wasn't so bad that you couldn't distinguish characters. And if VHS wasn't that bad (especially when the same anti-grain people are arguing that the "quality" of VHS or SD TVs was taken into account in the production process) there's no way that a high quality image with some grain would be that bad. If anything, DNR makes it look more like a shitty VHS copy than anything quality.

I think you get that from shooting vertically and arranging multiple cels corresponding to different planes at various distances from the lens which determine the level of focus for each one.

The multi-plane camera could work wonders.

Anyone have a list of 4K anime releases? I really liked CCS's blu ray so quality similar to that would be great.

It's a limitation but it was something the artists all knew would affect the art.
Like music artists were aware of the limitations of a 7'' single so they engineered their sound around that, so were even the most amateur cinematographers at least partially aware of the chracteristics of various filmstocks. I'm not even talking knowing the difference between 35mm or 16mm but the differences between Ekta or Superia.
Are the same concerns valid today? Not so much, but they were in the mind of artists at the time.
It's not vhs. And you're mixing and matching terms like resolution when analog has no such thing. You're rather fundamentally uninformed, hence the flat earth joke.

Using VHS as a quality guideline is not valid. VHS is is pretty trashy. Saying it was fine on VHS, so its fine for today is completely invalid. What we called fine on VHS "back then" was a relative term in comparison to no other choice(there was laser video and betamax, but they never caught on due to how expensive they were).

they are all shit and DNRed to hell.

They used the camera for the depth of field. So they put something in front of the camera to get it to focus how they wanted. The dof and lighting effects are actually real effects (the same way that a live action film does them) and not just done after the fact.

Char's Counterattack has an actual 4k release. The CCS release is 1080p but downscaled from a 4k master. Most TV anime was filmed on 16mm film so they wouldn't fair so well at 4k. You'll have to concentrate on movies and OVAs that used 35mm film.

You're right, it looks too good to be an actual screenshot of that shitshow

That's amazing, thanks anons.

...

I'm not doing what you're saying I'm doing. That user was saying that film grain makes it hard to see what's going on or to distinguish characters. But that's a shitty argument since even the shit quality of VHS didn't cause those issues in most cases. And there's plenty of examples of live action film that doesn't have those issues despite having bluray (sometimes 4k) releases with film grain in tact.

That actually looks like original cels, did they re scaned the show or something? If that isn't the case they did a great job, I can't say the same for most "remasters"

>wanting a properly handled remaster is Yea Forums

Guess we've resorted to baseless Ad Hominem now. So I suppose i'll call you a zoomer.

Nobody rescans shows. That's not a thing. It doesn't look that good, it's been degrained to hell.

People have restored videos from the 30s to high quality images today fine. We can restore shitty grainy images from 80s-90s with shit like waifu2x just fine. Arguing against the grain is pretty dumb.

Attached: 1531314339371.webm (624x466, 2.94M)

Honestly I can't even believe anti-graintards are even a thing. This entire thread has shown that a vast majority of them don't even know what grain is, why it's there and what removing it does to the image.

Maybe they are industry shills?

Videos from the 30s more often than not retain the grain because nobody that is actually interested in restoring old video is going to destroy the image by trying to remove the grain.

Attached: 1927 - Metropolis.mkv_snapshot_00.26.03.444.jpg (1440x1080, 583K)

And it's the same with everything shot on film.

youtube.com/watch?v=03K0E_BgEKg

They removed heavy grains/artifacts as much possible while keeping the video quality high as possible. If you compare the two, would you agree the restored video is of higher quality?

Filmphiles are retarded shit just like audiophiles of the audioworld and the homeopathy of the medical world.

That video is about the damaged film they found and has nothing to do with film grain.

You don't know what grain is. Criterion doesn't remove grain.

You have no argument.

Every film is damaged by grain. This video is a fact that you can take a completely shitty original and make a much better restoration via modern technology.

What am I watching

They didn't remove grain in the video you linked. You don't know what grain is.

Pretty sure this autist inventing "novel arguments" against grain here is just a case of

I don't even a 4k TV, I'm waiting for PS5 to upgrade

>Char's Counterattack has an actual 4k release.
Where can I find this

Quality Japanese cinema.

Attached: 1552114662990.webm (624x466, 2.93M)

I can't find much detail of the process they used, just that they used "digital processes". I can assure you they didn't just run it through a shitty DNR algorithm though.

Don't know. You can probably buy it on like Amazon but I don't know if you can find a download of it.

And you realize modern technology is not just limited to degraining process to improving the image right?

A degraining process does not improve the image.

what the hell! someone else has watched the family game?
you are absolutely based user!

Attached: The Family Game (1983).jpg (3072x3840, 2.23M)

I'm talking about anime though and anime studios don't give a shit. Removing extensive damage and removing grain are also two completely different things. The Metropolis damage wasn't even completely removed but they did as best they could. If you gave the damaged film to an anime studio they'd probably just airbrush it out and not care what the end result looked like. Just that it looked "better" because the damage was gone. Though the film damage in Gundam is still there despite the grain being almost completely gone so damage to them is better than grain.

tl;dr, Anti-graintards BTFO to oblivion

>little grimy dots are FINE DETAIL
lmao fucking boomers. how the fuck do you reach 30 with this level of autism and not kys yet?

Nobody is claiming the grain itself IS the detail, retard. Removing grain removes detail from the image, the fact that the grain is gone is not the detail being lost.

>Filename
Damn right.

Attached: Iria Zeiram the Animation - NCOP (R2DVD 768x576 x264 Hi10p AC3).mkv_snapshot_01.03_[2019.01.27_06.28 (768x576, 79K)

>bluring it removes fine detail!
>of my 80s shitty seasonal slideshow!
Literally go back to trading vhs old man. Did your nephew show you how to use the computer? Adorable.

>anti-graintards hate the source material they are arguing to destroy

I accept your concession.

You know who needs a BD?

Attached: Mamono_Hunter_Yohko_06_[h264_AAC][F3EAD1CA].mkv_snapshot_38.14_[2019.03.27_01.14.27].jpg (640x480, 65K)

The 80s had maybe 5 good shows tops and most of the OVAs were shit. Nostalgia goggles are a boomerfags biggest blanket.

Eh go get isekai'd

Truck-kun, no!

Nigger, I was born in 1995, my first anime was Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-Chan dubbed on youtube. I'm practically a zoomer. You don't have to be old to understand the intricacies of analogue video, nor do you have to be old to appreciate the over 50% of anime productions that were animated on cels. If you don't care about this stuff, then move on from it, these remasters are not made for you.

based
that retarded OVA was my 90s, along with Akira

Film degrades over time and degrades from being exhibited at all. Correcting for damage done to the print generations later is not the equivalent of dnr and you know it.

Zoomer pretending to be a boomer, wow. What is that now? A doomer?

Wait, is there a better version of Dirty Pair floating around? Flash or otherwise?

Honestly, I don't think a lot of them DO know it. Throughout the thread it's apparent most anti-graintards don't understand what grain even is, why it's there and what removing it does to the image.

People genuinely asked why don't modern anime studios add grain to modern productions as a standard. They really don't get it.

>zoomer pretending to be a boomer
Nowhere did I do this.

>what is that now?
Somebody who actually enjoys animation as a whole and not just what is marketed to me in the current year.

>Doomer?
that's a mental state and has nothing to do with your age.

>It's a release that doubles the frame rate

Attached: vomit.png (336x296, 187K)

yeah, never got remastered

Do companies do this? That's a new one. Or are you talking about pirate encodes?

>YouTube
So a hipster sooner even worse. Sad!

just the japanese remaster DVD box I'm afraid

i've seen a few times in the case of the latter

There is literally nothing wrong with exploring an artform that you love.

Left or Right?

Attached: AuBBZWZ.jpg (1915x759, 178K)

Left. Right looks greasy, and she pops too much from the background art in a distracting way.

Grain or Butter?

Left however
>not the same frame
>resized
>.jpg

Wow Kyoani's remaster of Sailor Moon is lookin good! :^)

>When the DNR so strong it gets rid of the raindrops
>better add a sharpening filter to create ringing

cringe

REMASTER FUCKING WHEEEEEEEEEEEEN

Attached: 1448225034280.jpg (1773x1997, 2.28M)

Pfft. You're small time.
I watch my anime like I watched my porn in the 80s.

Attached: Dare you watch my Magical Realm.gif (493x328, 953K)

You have brain damage.

POST GRAINY SCREENSHOTS RIGHT FUCKING NOW

Attached: (G_P) Patlabor TV 18(x264 1080p)(41EB05B7).mkv_snapshot_00.31_[2013.08.19_20.04.38].jpg (1440x1080, 123K)

Attached: Sumissu.jpg (1432x1080, 212K)

Attached: Magic Knight Rayearth Ep49 [720p].mkv_snapshot_11.41_[2019.02.15_21.16.56].jpg (960x720, 101K)

>check out this comparison for the 4k release
>videos max res is 1080p
>further shrunken down for side by side comparison

Attached: 1460299846593.jpg (633x323, 46K)

Attached: [FroZen-EviL]_Yawara_-_032_[720p][Blu-Ray][060B6BB2][00:12:10]001.png (960x720, 923K)

Attached: [Kagura] Ranma 1／2 - 014 [BDRip 1440x1080 x264 Hi10P FLAC].mkv_snapshot_18.47_[2013.09.04_18.17.11 (1440x1080, 171K)

Nice how it shows that denoising usually kills lineart too, in the lower-contrast parts.

The SD is also not the best possible quality, it might have TV-levels (wrong conversion so washed out). On the DVD release, the colors are similar to the remaster (it was a remaster too), even tho possibly not as strong.
The detail improvement should be massive though, really looking forward to that one. Bikini armor FTW,

Attached: [1985] - Genmu Senki Leda - DVD.png (2148x1054, 3.08M)

Can confirm, even the non-terrible degraining filters will eat up raindrops in anime.

Here's a cheat using waifu2x upscaled to 1080p from 480p grainy source.

First frame = 480p upscaled to 1080p using mpv. Second frame = waifu2x upscaled to 1080p.

Attached: test.webm (1920x1080, 283K)

>The less you see on screen the happier you are.
Oh but simplistic designs with no fucking shading are supposed to be good right? Fuck off, the CGI and digital effects were great in this show.

Attached: (You).png (1440x1080, 609K)

Just imagine the fucking mess if this shot was put under DNR.

Attached: 326.png (960x720, 568K)

As if there's enough detail to warrant a 4k release.

Attached: 00004.m2ts_snapshot_01.50_[2017.11.17_20.57.01].png (1920x1080, 3.74M)

Move forward, not backwards!

G R A I N

Attached: [HorribleSubs] Kill la Kill - 19 [720p].mkv_snapshot_15.27_[2014.02.20_21.16.22].jpg (1280x720, 70K)

>digital trash
kill yourself.

Attached: Urusei Yatsura TV 026 [BD-rip 1440x1080 x264 FLAC].mkv_snapshot_05.43_[2013.09.10_20.01.33].jpg (1440x1080, 170K)

Grain and all those artifacts hide the fact that cel animated stuff has lots of imperfections, like shity lineart, bleeding colors, cheap inks. If you remaster those shows the fantasy that old anime was of higher quality would shatter.

I can't imagine I share a board with people this stupid.

Imagine a guy manually applying ink onto celluloid, by the time he's on his hundredth cel his hand is shaky and can't avoid making mistakes. All that stuff is hidden behind the low resolution and grain of old releases. Remove them and you'll notice for sure. Wanting 4k releases of stuff that was drawn on A4 sizes cels is retarded.

user, just a piece of advice, do not apply this type of reasoning to whatever important thing irl

Removing grain does not increase clarity, it decreases it. Your position on 4K restorations in general is a different matter altogether. Personally I prefer to view television anime as originally broadcast, so the cel stuff would be in 480i on a CRT. If someone wants to see them restored to near workprint quality I can understand their position.

Nice. More 4K releases means more OVAs and movies actually get exposed for how shit they looked.

What does that even mean? Increased line clarity has no bearing on character design, coloration, animation quality or whatever else.

Avert your gaze.

Attached: 1540344470581.png (1920x1080, 2.44M)

>Imagine a guy manually applying ink onto celluloid, by the time he's on his hundredth cel his hand is shaky and can't avoid making mistakes

Yes, that is in fact referred to as 'soul'. We do actually like things that contain soul. Is there a problem with that?

>Grain and all those artifacts hide the fact that cel animated stuff has lots of imperfections, like shity lineart, bleeding colors, cheap inks.
grain/dirt can't hide that, retard.
The one think it masks is flatness of the solid areas. Which is the reason it is desirable as I told you like three times in this thread, you thickhead.
>the fantasy that old anime was of higher quality would shatter.
oh, you are one of those retards that have to shit against old anime for reasons. Probably for your fragile little ego to feel important.

Attached: fatepalm.jpg (500x500, 61K)

REEEEEEEEEEE

The size of the cel has no bearing on how much detail it can hold and how much of that detail can be imprinted onto film. Just because a cel is A4 size doesn't mean the film it's on only holds up at A4 size.

bro where do i download this? cant find it on the usual sites

It just wouldn't be Yea Forums or 4chinpo in general without autistic faggotry, after all.

>
The OP (and well, the rest too) is going to be so nice in HD.

cel is amazing, i love cel

I am currently watching the downsampled 4K remaster of CCS. It's degrained and it looks fucking appailling. Should have downloaded the 200GB batch. That probably does have dynamic grain. Escaflowne looks like complete fucking trash without grain, too. TV shows need the grain to distract the eye from all the aristic blunders.

Exposes terrible line art, leaking cels, shadows from the plates the cels were placed on during the filming process and so much other shit. SD rips barely making it possible for you spot them, but proper remaster make it so bloody obvious. Dozens of TV shows suffer from unline shadows. Pic rel isn't even a good example for this, and yet it's still distracting and makes the cel stand out from its environment. This was an obnoxious as fuck problem in Turn A in particular.

Attached: 1532896540402.png (1440x1080, 2.02M)

WHERE ARE MY GRAINS? UGLY! TRASH! BLURRY! UNWATCHABLE!

How does cel shadows existing mean something looks terrible? Just like grain it's an inherent thing that was part of the production process. I'd rather see cel shadows than watch some shitty looking VHS copy of something.

None of those small issues, which only become apparent when viewing the work in a way that wasn't originally intended, have much bearing on the overall visual presentation of the anime. Nowhere near as much as the categories I've listed above.

This but unironically.

>oh no mom I don't want to leech the big files
>if I convince everybody to do use those magic filters from AMV making guide, the episodes will be 175 MB again like when I was born
>right? right?

Can't stop me from downloading 100 TB Sailor Moon episode in full Cel shaded glory.

also
>I want to only leech small encodes
>but knowing that somebody watches it in better quality
>I know, I need to convince everybody that worse is better!
I guess

>lol has no impact haha
It very much does. It makes models stand out and thereby shows how pisspoor a lot of cels were actually integrated. Justify it as much as you want it's an indicator for amateurish work nonetheless because it's an unintended byproduct of the production process. An artistic blunder, same way color leaking from the cel is.

>Nowhere near as much as the categories I've listed above.
But nobody gives a shit about your extremely biased opinion, my 14 year old friend. You're going to justify artistic blunders no matter what, so what's the point in hearing your worthless statements on the matter?

You are judging films in a form that they were never intended to be seen, for minor flaws that are inherent to the process in which they are made.

How do people justify watching this without grain? It looks so fucking trash.

Attached: 1553476138669.jpg (1440x1080, 310K)

found the zoomer

They could always go through and airbrush cel shadows out if they bother you so much. Probably wouldn't ruin the image anymore than removing the grain does.

Hope you're not one of those people who complain about the hardlock on early digital resolution. After all, you were never supposed to watch those at above 480p either.

You genuinely believe that the presence of line breaks and cel shadows have more bearing on visual presentation than character designs, animation and coloration?

No one gives a shit about your autism either. You downloaded it anyway so it's not like anyone cares about your input. Most people watching anime know fully well it's being produced on a shoestring budget and they still watch it despite the production issues. It's only your loss if that shit stands out to you and you can't enjoy shit because of it.

Of course not, you can't help the way the show was originally mastered. If 480p is their native resolution then that is how i'll see it.

Yea Forums is full of south americans with shitty internet connections who watch anime on their phone

of course they're going to hate actual decent releases that keep grain intact

The thing is, we're not even talking about pirate encodes. I don't care what pirates decide they want to do with their encodes. If you prefer grainless anime, more power to you.

We're talking about official restoration and releases here. You can always degrain after the fact, you can't add back lost detail. The point is to allow the public to make their choice on how much of a quality hound they want to be, rather than having the company decide to set the bar low for you.

Nobody gives a shit about your arbitrary list. Why would you think that it's of any importance? Or rather: Why would you think that the list suddenly eliminates the artistic blunders from the viewers attention?

>looool spics
Implying it's not the Aussies and the Burger living in the Midwest who get by on 200GB monthly datacaps. Those usually also are the people who want to pirate but refuse to spend a dime storange. Unironically go an check the IPs on a given HS release. It's mostly spics and asians.

Do you genuinely believe that the presence of line breaks and cel shadows have more bearing on visual presentation than character designs, animation and coloration?

>The point is to allow the public to make their choice on how much of a quality hound they want to be, rather than having the company decide to set the bar low for you.
Kek. Look at this entitlement. It's the company's work to publish. They are the ones who have a right to decide what the product is supposed to look like because they want to make money off of it. If they sell the show with grain, and the modern audience doesn't want grain, then the average CUSTOMER will not make their own degrained encode. What sort of bubble do you subhumans live in? Where does this entitlement come from? Who the fuck do you think you are?

the people in production are mostly inexperienced or try tocut too manY corners. so instead of watergating their 16mm film they end up slapping a bunch of filters on it instead, which is cheaper but also looks "cheap"

Talking about yourself, saru-chan?

The films themselves are entitled to an accurate and unmolested release. Modern audiences don't give a fuck about grain one way or another. Companies use DNR because it's cheaper than removing scratches and dust by hand, it has nothing to do with consumer needs.

I am sure you're able to back up your claims with sufficient empiric evidence. You wouldn't be trying to spread bullshit in an attempt to make the intellectual property rights holders look like a bunch of dilettantes, right? If the sales numbers don't plummet, the PAYING CUSTOMER (read: not you) doesn't give a shit. I'll be waiting for the data.

There are no alternative releases, so there is no data refuting or supporting my claims. My evidence is that the average consumer doesn't even know what film grain is.

>here are some jpg artefacts from using jpeg at 10% on top, senpai
heh nothing personal, kiddo

Attached: 1551460541119.jpg (1024x963, 112K)

>anything big daddy corporation shovels down my gullet is the best and intended presentation because they are the authority and you should take it like a little corporate buttslut

no thanks. I'll keep bitching and shouting about poor quality releases like Funimation's recent Dragonball Z "remaster".

I buy releases that are properly treated. Criterion has taken a lot of my money.

At least you're smart enough to admit that. However, I would argue that increased production/remastering costs very much have the potential to result in higher prices, which, if the consumer doesn't give a shit about grain or no-grain, very much has a direct impact on consumer needs. The consumer wants it cheap, the the company provides it at a cheaper rate. That's how the market works. So pretending for the question of grain or no-grain to be irrelevant to the consumer, just because they don't care what the show looks like, is disingenuous at best, and retarded at worst.

You can complain all you want, but at the end of the day you're (likely) not even a paying customer and therefore have no leg to stand on.

I honestly do usually get the grainy encodes because they're less compressed, but I use degrain filters.

Fucking this, retards won't acknowledge film grain is just an unintential byproduct of cels. It's like someone gloating that his blown up old photos are better for the red eyes and halos.

>Fucking this, retards won't acknowledge film grain is just an unintential byproduct of cels.
But its'a good byproduct because otherwise cel animation looks like dogshit, see this

I do admit that grain was a product of the production. But filtering it out after the fact isn't the same as it not being there in the first place. It's there and you can't get rid of it without losing information. Have you seen Die Hard? That movie has a lot of ugly looking lens flair. But trying to remove that would just make it look worse because it would require removing parts of the image. It would be even worse if they tried to do it automatically like they do with grain removal.

If the company can't afford (lmao) to remaster it properly, they can't afford to release it at all. I AM a paying customer when the release is properly done, i've even imported some blurays from Japan.

Do YOU have proof that remastering properly WILL increase the costs to the end user? Where is the data? Many live action films are released unmolested and are reasonably priced to the consumer.

What about budget releases of grindhouse films where they don't touch them up at all? Those are not degrained in the slightest and come out far better than heavy hitters like Dragonball Z.

I am in favor of grain but when it comes to anime the numbers don't lie. DNR doesn't matter to most anime fans. Just look at the sales of the Gundam BDs. A lot of the Gundam BDs had DNR and they still rank higher than most other anime releases. Consider how atrocious the Zeta BD in particular was, and it's still a top seller. Most people don't care.

Attached: chrome_2019-05-06_18-44-02.png (887x919, 80K)

And if people don't care either way, the best course of action is to leave the release unmolested, both for accuracy and for the sake of hardcore fans.

>DNR doesn't matter to most anime fans.
Most people can't tell good video, actually they often mistake shitty things for quality. Like, overshoot contrast or saturarion - "OMG it is so vivid and crisp, you remastered it dude!"

Like one of the other anons said, there's no other available releases. Putting out a shitty product and people reluctantly buying it doesn't prove anything. I'm not saying everyone that bought those is like that but you can't compare something if there's nothing to compare it too.

>You have to take our shitty product or we WILL raise costs on you!

Nope, sorry. Doesn't work that way. If you raise the costs I will not buy your product. If you continue to put out shitty products I will not buy your product, and will make everyone I can aware not to buy your product.

>can't afford
Nobody ever talked about an inability to afford something. If the costs for the company go up, so does the cost for the consumer. So if the batch is sold at a higher price, demand goes down and you need to compensate somehow.

>Do YOU have proof that remastering properly WILL increase the costs to the end user?
I don't, but that was your entire claim. It increases production cost so if the company goes for profit maximization then it will automatically increase prizes, too. Or corner are cut somewhere else in return. The company sure as hell won't sell a more costly product at the same rate.

Then why should the company remaster the version in a more cost inefficient manner? I realize that I worded that post poorly, but I was primarily referring to customer needs. People bring up a lack of alternatives but there's no evidnece that supports this. In fact, one of the Anons even says that they refuse to buy shit remasters. So wouldn't we be able to apply his stance on the matter on the Japanese people and assume for some of them to look at it the same way?

Holy shit this fucking thread. Why do some of you people who like destroying film even care about no-grain? You know you're not gonna watch any old anime in the first place, you're all too immersed in a millennial sense of irony to actually enjoy these kinds of things in the first place.

>I don't
I accept your concession. Provide evidence that proper remaster costs are inherently passed onto the consumer or fuck off, Funi shill.

Oh no, the mighty Anonymous is gonna hinder my sales. My profit margins are shrinking. Help! Help!

I honestly love serious autismo threads like this. And it's fucking Monday.

Are you pretending that Funimation didn't just get their asshole plowed by consumer outcry over their new DBZ blurays? They TANGIBLY lost so many sales. Delicious.

>I accept your concession
Kek. The entitled little faggot who thinks he's in a position to dictate how the rightsholders release THEIR product pretends to have won an internet argument. Genius, if proper grain had a positive impact on profit margins whatsoever the company had no reasons to touch them. Hence they either are irrelevant and they roll the dice (their good right) and they remove the grain cause it hampers profits. Go be entitled somewhere else you little shit.

I don't dislike grain I just want HD images to be well done.

Attached: vlcsnap-2017-09-19-00h07m25s132.png (1432x1080, 2.45M)

or they remove the grain cause it hampers profits*

>In fact, one of the Anons even says that they refuse to buy shit remasters. So wouldn't we be able to apply his stance on the matter on the Japanese people and assume for some of them to look at it the same way?
Because most people conflate DNR with something being automatically shit, which, even as a "grain purist," I will argue against because some shows with DNR still look fine. If we're sticking with Gundam, G, Turn A, and Victory still look gorgeous despite DNR.

What ACTUALLY matters to people is whether or not it's an upscale. Because that's where the truly shitty "remasters" are.

DNR doesn't affect sales but shitty upscaling does.

Attached: chrome_2019-05-06_18-56-29.png (762x72, 7K)

Stay seething over your major loss with the new DBZ blurays, Funi fuck. I hope Vic tears your dick off.

The tides are shifting, video quality, specifically grain is becoming part of the normal dialogue around a release. You're going to have to deal with that change.

Adapt or die.

How do I play 4k videos on a non-HDR monitor? Everything looks dark and google isn't helping me.

That looks like some low quality upscale.

>zz sales
Holy moly

>Because adding grain to a digital is an additional step that adds no objective value, only an aesthetic one.

Not true. You NEED grain for shows like Berserk. Not everything benefits from the ultra clean digital look. As far as aesthetics go I like both grain and without.

>specifically grain is becoming part of the normal dialogue around a release
Go stream some more. I'll be selling my NO GRAIN releases to plenty of willing and happy customers.

You'll see. DBZ 30th is just the beginning. Good luck.

Who gives a shit about the US market anyway? Nobody. France and China are both more important.

In a sense it was. It's from the Bluray remastering of a 90s OVA that used archival footage from the 70s for one episode. The rest of the episode proper was like this.

Attached: Time Bokan - OAV 2 [BDMux1080p Ita-Jap-Eng].mkv_snapshot_17.48_[2018.01.18_22.07.16].jpg (1432x1080, 798K)

Japan's image boards read our shit. If it becomes a big deal, it'll spread.

They'll jump on it even more when they are educated, over there release quality is a much bigger deal as a niche product they will spend far more money on.

>France
maybe for manga, definitely not for home video
>China
arguable, most just import the nip releases if they do buy anything lol

>the retarded burger thinks he has an impact on the industry again
30 fucking years. 30 fucking years you've deluded yourself into believing this nonsense and all you've gotten are some Netflix anime. Never seizes to amaze me.

I've come to the realization that removing the grain makes retro anime look like they're from the early 2000's which triggers nostalgiafags to no end. Hence why their autism for it.

>wants to drum up a consumer revolt for DNR
Don't fuck with the mouse bro. That's how you never wake up.

jesus

Grain simply makes cartoons look better. Everytime grain was used on digital, it looked better than without. Fact. That's why I am running a static grain script in mpv.

>minimizing what happened to funimation recently

Good luck.

Christ

...

Based falseflagger

Reminder that anti-grainfags are industry shills. There is no reason to prefer DNR unless you are the company releasing the blurays.

superstar

Do those remasters have the slight animation cell jiggle even when characters are standing still?

Don't know how is it called but it's basically an after effect that wasn't put there on purpose. It's just there because when you put animation cells after each other to shoot them you are not completely accurate while laying them down - therefore the slight jiggle. You can notice it on pretty much any non-digital animation. Anyone knows how is it called?

Attached: TUcvheP.png (640x480, 365K)

Do people seriously hate this? I get hating grain removal when it turns into a pile of greasy shit, but this is sharp as fuck.

>the whole thread
>grainfags get BTFO
>grainfags cry SHILLS

If you're talking about film stock jitter, most releases will fix this. If you're talking about inaccurate placement of cels during photography, no that can't be fixed.

Not falseflagging. It's actually true. Iso used grain on both his RahXephon episode and Dennou Coil and both looked incredible because of it. I am surprised there aren't any more studios who at least add some form of static grain to their works. Must have a negative impact on reception. I just want to grain on shit tier OVAs (most of them) that I don't give a shit about to trigger people, and grain on stuff I like (almost all of which already has proper bluray remasters with grain). At this point I simply wanna see the garbage OVA cel visuals be exposed for what they are.

Not once did grainfags get BTFO. Anti-grainfags had to even be reminded what grain even IS.

Good try though, "profit margins".

>t inaccurate placement of cels during photography
Have an example?

>entitled little child part of the instagram generation
>wah wah why is this company does this I have a voice wah wah
Hope there'll be more DNR releases. Hopefully all of them will be. DNR releases with bad colorization. YES. PLEASE.

If you mean shaking, it's super common. But's not a big issue, your brain actually compensates it and you hardly notices it. Actually stabilising is bad in a way, because part of the image has to be cropped afterwards. So I don't think it is a good idea to do with rips. Maybe in production, when you have reserve area that is going to be cropped to keep out unfinished parts of cel etc. But I still think it is not needed in most cases, the shake would have to be exceptional.

Seething.

Who let in the schizophrenic?

Coming from the guy who has been doing nothing else but points out how he's entitled to a release with grain. Heh, nuffin personl, kid.

You seem very angry.

antigrainfag "arguments" are really desperate ITT

Oh you haven't even seen me hit 50%.

>t-think of the poor profit margins!

Soon.

this thread

Attached: gundam_5.png (2154x1600, 2.24M)

So there's the argument that remasters show the original artistic intent behind the cels, but I have to wonder if the cels weren't drawn with the knowledge of how the filming and broadcasting processes would make the final product look thus making the remasters perversions of the intended viewing experience.

Thats a dumb way to look at it. The artists drew a certain way. The films tried to capture it as best as possible. Grains and low quality video in VHS were the best the technology could offer before the internet hit mainstream. Then VHS upgraded to DVD, but DVD was still trash compared to BD due to limited capacity of DVD. Each time technology progresses, the best possible viewing way is the intended viewing experience of the animators. The animators in the 60s didn't intend their animation to be best represented in old cassette drives that could not hold color information due to lack of storage medium.

There's a similar argument with old video games. Some of them had visuals that were specifically made to take advantage of the display tech at the time

Attached: 2728597-batmancomparison.jpg (1238x471, 450K)

Go watch something from the 70s with subtitles. The subtitles don't move but you'll see the picture shaking slightly.

Of course cels were drawn with the knowledge of what photography would do to the image they were actually drawn with a bit of leeway for that purpose. Pretending otherwise is completely dishonest.

Poke the shills and watch em swarm.

>the entire picture
That's film judder. Inaccurate cel placement is when a character wiggles when they talk or something.

They could not anticipate what future technology could bring. They could not have intended their animation to be viewed any other way.

On top of that, resolution and grain are not the same thing. Grain can be on bluray just fine.

This is a tough one

What a great color scheme. What episode is this?

I'm sure they were but I still prefer seeing flaws from a 1080p bluray release over shitty, blurry, VHS visuals. I also pointed out earlier Japan's love for compilation movies so stuff like Gundam or OVAs that did get theatrical releases probably had at least some thought into how they'd look when projected with a film projector.

I also like running old 3D games at 4k with copious amounts of antialiasing.

Not really. Archival photos show that verifiably companies worked with PVMs during production. Faux-transparencies due to composite artifacting are the exception not the rule. As long as the game is displayed via CRT it's fine.

Holly shit, this is ultra sharp.

Same as ye olde anime too.

You probably are Mr Autisitc low information shitposter since it's default behavior.

Attached: 31Tl6uS.png (1006x276, 39K)

Not as sharp as it could be.

Most of everything is trash.

Are you fucking dumb? The cels are long gone.
They probably got the 35mm film and put some post processing filter on top of it.

It doesn't matter whether animators anticipated future technology. What matters is how accurate new technology captures their artistic work.

The animators didn't draw grains on their anime. They may have to live in grains in production method due to technological limits of the time, but as future comes, as it has come now, living with grains is just trash outlook. Living with the outlook that view grains as the best form of quality is just peasant mentality.

You don't understand what grain is, why it's there and what removing does to the image.

>500+
Sayonara friends

See you next time a company fucks up a release.

Removing the grain destroys the artist's work more than leaving it there does.

This. DNR isn't like cleaning an image, DNR is smearing an image so much that grain can't be seen. It's creating a problem to fix a "problem"

>artist draws anime
>someone takes picture of it
>in the process they shit on the anime
>it comes out shit covered
REEEEEE STOP REMOVING THE SHIT. YOU'RE DESTROYING THE ARTIST'S WORK.

>artist draws anime knowing it'll have shit on it
>shit gets put on it
>years later, companies who don't give a fuck smear the shit around and make it look 1000% times worse
>people ask them to stop
>muh profit margins!

Jesus christ, when will these grain autists understand that this is not degrained, not upscaled, not filtered not anything. Its a RESCAN of the ORIGINAL FILM with better technology. It looks the way the artists intended it to

Attached: f90.jpg (1145x1273, 640K)

That's not what grain is you fucking retard. Grain is inherent to the film. A 5000millionK scan from 2048 will still have grain unless they run it through a grain removing digital process.

FUCK you.

>Its a RESCAN of the ORIGINAL FILM
The ORIGINAL FILM has grain on it. The only way to get rid of the grain is to run it through a degrain filter. Every remaster, regardless of if it has grain or not, was a rescan of the original film. That's how they do remasters.

>pretend to be knowledgeable
>but you aren't
You aren't looking at a raw interpositive frames scan, you're looking at the master which by definition has been processed to become what you're seeing.

Attached: t-[00.00.000-00.01.667].webm (1280x960, 142K)

I don't care as long as the video's in modern resolution. How about that?

You're entitled to your low standards.