What was so revolutionary about this?

excuse me? Lalah v2 is beautiful.

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Stairs

She's beautiful though.

India cock propaganda that led to India's current superpower status.

It's a joke. The show is about people who are stuck in time. Making a revolution is moving on/changing the status quo

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It’s Ikuhara’s only good work

>Somali
Kentucky public school user is that you?

Just how pretentious the anoime is.

Sadly this.

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retard

Do I look like an American?

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There was a homophobe in it

Carole x Tuesday is a modern version of this

why do you say somalian when she's clearly south indian

why do you make comments like this when you quite clearly haven't watched utena

it was the evangelion of lesbians

Eva is already gay

Threadly reminder that user please old men for shitposting

Yeah, she's Bi. Like everyone should be.

The show is very repetitive, and there is tons of circular imagery with rotation (like the dueling arena stairs). Revolution has two meanings, to make a circular rotation and end up where you started (stasis), and a political uprising/overthrow (change). Utena duels to change the world but actually ends up supporting the status quo for most of the series. The word revolutionary implies the dual nature of the characters' actions.

Also the show is obviously somewhat political and advocates for societal change, particularly around the issues of homosexuality and feminism. The show is politically revolutionary as well as revolutionary for anime as a whole since a lot of things Utena accomplishes hasn't been done before or since.

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Hence the "of lesbians".

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it's about personal revolution, finding yourself and destroying your old world with a new one - read Damien. Also, there is something Hegelian about the show but I can't say that on Yea Forums because anons would shout at me for being pretentious.

I have a theory that, because of all the unused duel themes and the art of Utena and Anthy riding horses and dressing in armour that there is a secret lost arc of Utena which only exists in another world

Very based, very redpilled.

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Is that image implying that Princess Tutu is lame?

Meh. It's literally "Heterosexuals Bad: The Show".

No, it isn't.

No it isn't, please read Demian

I’d say Utena is more Gnostic than Hegelian, although I’d love to hear why you think Hegel can be applied to the show.

Except it actually isn't at all.

The book by Herman Hesse? I have. And?
Can you say anything of substance or is "NO" the entirety of your argument?

>Can you say anything of substance or is "NO" the entirety of your argument?
What make you think the show says"heterosexuality" is bad?

it's more so specifically about the idea dialectic materialism in duelling, how two ideas present each other in a duel and end up clashing with Utena learning something new about herself through the other's problems.
Utena is based on it, it literally takes the egg and abraxas section and uses it in the student council scenes
There is also a song called Abraxas

Maybe not heterosexuality in itself but heteronormativity as a whole. That is the most consistent theme not only in Utena but in Ikuhara's entire opus. Utena is vague enough that it can also be interpreted as a coming of age story but there is absolutely nothing in it that pinpoints it as such.

>revolutionary for anime as a whole
I’m not sure about this. Homosexuality and feminism were covered in anime predating Utena (Belladonna of Sadness, RoV and Oniisama e to name a few). On top of that, Utena’s influence on the medium as a whole isn’t felt as strongly as other 90’s shows like Eva and Sailor Moon. It’s undoubtedly one of the classics of the 90’s, but I wouldn’t call it that influential.

Don't you agree that it is possible that a work references superficial elements of another work without actually having the same thematic core?

>Maybe not heterosexuality in itself but heteronormativity as a whole.
It's not about hereronormativy, as much as it is about how society puts labels on people and puts them into boxes.

The princess/prince/witch archetypes are inherently toxic because they people are complex and multi-faced. Dios died because how much society expects from men. Anthy became a witch because women/princess are not expected to "save" anyone. Except she's not a witch because in the end she's also a victim.

That is a neat interpretation you have there but how do you know it's true?

What? You think the show doesn't criticize the stupid archetypes? The themes are pretty much forefront.

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Ikuhara himself said that he based Utena on the book, and its clear when you read it

Ok that I can sort of agree with that. I wouldn't say it's against heteronornativity as much as society's inflexible view of gender roles as well as a lot of feminist ideas. Really it could be interpreted to be about a lot of things because it's concerned with the mechanics of how culture influences and controls people.

>Utena is vague enough that it can also be interpreted as a coming of age story but there is absolutely nothing in it that pinpoints it as such.
There is a lot that pinpoints it as a coming of age, like the demian references. And also most of the plot and characters. Really I don't see how you could leave coming of age out of a discussion of Utena's themes, it's a very central part.

You're not wrong, but I still stand by my stance at least as far as the authorial intent of naming it "Revolutionary Girl Utena." Those predecessors never went as far as Utena in its refusal to accept gender roles and its nuance in portraying feminist ideas (Anthy is by far the best "feminist" character in anime and TV as a whole). It wasn't as influential as Eva but it still influenced a certain number of shows and is still influencing them today, like Revue Starlight. I think time will only make Utena stand out more. And it is a nice dovetail with the series' finale that the show didn't try to influence the industry by having fuck tons of merch and marketability but instead by doing its own thing and being the best work of art it could be. That is the reason it's still relevant today.

>(Anthy is by far the best "feminist" character in anime and TV as a whole).
Interesting, do you mind elaborating?

>That is a neat interpretation you have there but how do you know it's true?
That's not how interpretations work user. But also what
said. If you didn't pick up on the major theme that the roles people play are often harmful and impressed upon them by society to the point where they become internalized you missed a lot of shit. That is almost explicitly stated in dialogue several times.
The princess/witch dichotomy is basically the madonna/whore complex and explores this idea.

Your picture is a comment on gender roles. Gender roles are a sort of a social "box" so inherently if you want to discuss them then this indirectly concerns the issue of stereotypes. But is the larger theme ever actually addressed in the show?

her car looks like a dildo

All over. Utena wears boys clothes. Anthy believes she must be the Rose Bride even though she doesn't have to be. Juri experiences shame over her lesbian-ness. Miki struggles with being a "nice guy" and what being a man means. Wakaba deals with how society views and treats "ordinary" people. There's more all over.

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You can't leave coming of age out of a discussion about the formation of sexual identity and vice versa but they are still distinct themes.

Not who you were talking too, but the princess/witch dichotomy is clearly a play on the Madonna/whore complex. And that’s exactly how all the characters in the series see Anthy— Either as this pure incorruptible thing, or worth less than dirt. Her relationship with Akio also has to be one of the most believable portrayals of domestic abuse in the whole medium. Anthy hates her brother, but just can’t see a way to go on without him.

>but just can’t see a way to go on without him.
Maybe because she's the actual reason he's like that? He's as much of a victim as she is, except he's her victim.

I don't remember this being very well explored in the series and the movie exaggerates his role even further portraying his as a weak man and a literal rapist.

>Maybe because she's the actual reason he's like that? He's as much of a victim as she is, except he's her victim.
The victim of what? Saving his life?

It’s both. They both imprison eachother. Just like real dysfunctional relationships.

That's just Akio's excuse for being shit. Society is the one at fault but while Akio was victimized he became a victimized and by the time of the show he is not a victim at all in the present. What Anthy did to him was wrong and it did mess him up but she did not perpetuate the cycle of abuse like he did. Yes Akio is a product of his circumstances but those circumstances put him in a position of complete power over Anthy which he abuses knowingly and intentionally.

*became a victimizer

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>What Anthy did to him was wrong and it did mess him up but she did not perpetuate the cycle of abuse like he did.
She saved his life and took the swords in his place. If she had done nothing he would have been dead because a prince can't exist in a sensible reality.

She did save his life, but who did she save it from? Akio was choosing to be the prince, he didn't have to be. Just like Anthy didn't have to be the Rose Bride.

Anthy also essentially raped Akio at this point. We're told Akio was overworking himself trying to actually be the prince (which I agree can't exist) and was going to die. She takes the swords of hatred in his place and saves his life, but this action is verbally linked several times to Akio's fall from grace. It's heavily implied Anthy slept with him at this point, and that this led to psychological damage to the both of them and their current abusive relationship. So in this instance Akio truly was a victim of Anthy, but it is also true that he was the cause of his own life-threatening circumstances by choosing to be the prince. She only "saved" him from his own choices, and it led to him becoming a monster. I want to be clear I'm not blaming Anthy too harshly for her choices, she was young and it was a life or death impulse decision.

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>Anthy also essentially raped Akio at this point.
I give you that the fall of Dios has some sexy vibes going on (The lost cottage, Dios sweating, the loose clothes), but the actual "fall" is really just vague in show. We are just told that the moment "Anthy the witch" was born Dios died. For all we know, Akio just became jaded after witnessing what reality did to his sister.

More so, really, her reasons were largely driven by trying to do good (Though, probably jealously was also in the mix because she was the only girl who couldn't be his princess), she was factually the only person who truly cared for him.

Ultimately though, you can also argue Akio's "fall" was inevitable and just a result of the themes the show tries to adress, you can't stay a child forever, at one point you have to grow up. And once you lose your innocence, you can't regain in.
Heck if we go by the movie - There was never a prince in the first place. Anthy's magic made him a prince.

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I could say a lot about this, Anthy can be interpreted a lot of ways and that's one of the interesting things about her.

What I really enjoy about Anthy's character, is how she functions perfectly as an individual character while also serving as a really detailed and nuanced stand-in for traditional femininity as a whole. This is summed up in the line, "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride," said by Anthy herself. Anthy's dialogue is consistently entertaining and true to her character. Nearly everything she says when she's not in bed with Utena is an underhanded insult which no one pays attention to because she acts so demurely about it all. All the while she is manipulating the people around her to do her brother's bidding using her status in the "dueling game" which is not dissimilar from a wedding (church bells ring every duel). Anthy's abusive relationship with Akio is very believable and sad, and explains why she would do the things she does. She has boxed herself in to her own self-denial and self-loathing.
Looking at Anthy as a symbol of femininity, we see that she uses her sexuality to manipulate and control the people around her because that is the only method through which she has agency, or at least that is what she believes. Essentially it's an exploration of the historical heirarchy of men and women through the lens of an abusive relationship, and how those power dynamics are internalized by both parties. It's a neat metaphor and I think it's conveyed really well.

There's a lot that's been written about Anthy, this is just the main lens I view her from.

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a black girl having time in screen

It is vague, probably intentionally so. Watching the scene though, especially the shot in my pic, makes me think it's being implied pretty strongly. And the show implies sex with shots like this at least a dozen times, so I feel pretty strongly that she had sex with him. It ties in very nicely with the connection to Adam and Eve. The scene is about how women are able to use sexuality as a way to control men and how this ability has been historically demonized by the dominant culture in myth and legend (eg Adam and Eve). And it would explain Akio's feelings of victimhood very well.

>black

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Akio and Anthy simply have a fucked situation. If Akio doesn't organize duels, Anthy is stuck in that coffin forever. And that's true weather Akio can forgive Anthy or not, and weather he's right in that or not.

The beauty of Utena is that it doesn't have a villain.

Akio is clearly the villain.

That's an interesting interpretation. I've always looked at it like Anthy could leave the coffin at any time as long as she felt valued and valuable, and the dueling games were doing more to keep her in there then get her out. I don't buy that Anthy is trapped in the coffin by anything but her own mind.

This thread needs more Nanami

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Both Akio and Anthy could leave anything. Akio could just "man up" and Anthy could do what she did at the end of the show.

It's obvious between the two Akio is far worse, in the show patriarchal structure he holds all the power, while the system demonized Anthy.

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Hey, leave Princess tutu alone!

holy fuck, nanami is so hot!

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I like how she looks with her hair down.

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she is the cutest that way! I wish we saw more of that.

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extremely based, extremely redpilled

Only it wasn't.

Anthy is not a symbol of femininity, she represents unfiltered reality. Enokido and Ikuhara say this outright in an interview.

Would you happen to have a link? Also what exactly do you mean by that? Anthy clearly has her own filtered view of what is happening. Is it about her powers?