What does "pretentious" mean to you

"than it needs to be"
uhm?? So you're suggesting complete bland directing or what?
They just tell their story the way they tell their story that's it.

Such as?

See what I'm saying OP. when someone tries to explain what pretentious means to them you always get retarded answers

Lain has a lot more depth than Eva and it's symbolism and aesthic practices are used far more effectively

pretentious means characterized by assumption of dignity or importance, especially when exaggerated or undeserved

Evangelion is pretentious for example because it used christian symbolism everywhere purely because it's "cool", i.e. it makes the anime seem more sophisticated without it actually meaning anything. Same goes for all the Freudian shit when it doesn't really have anything to do with the main theme of the anime.

Lain is pretentious because the director outright went to say he sought to create a narrative that would be hard for foreigners to comprehend.

Ghost in the Shell (especially SAC) is able to tell its story that involves high concept ideas in a very straightforward manner and is absolutely not bland, there's no reason for Lain to be the way it is.

Yes because every idea has to be presented in a straightforward manor because otherwise it's pretentious. Okay.

Straightforward = good
Complex = bad and pretentious

>manor
Why do you pretend to care about narrative complexity so much when you're barely literate enough to comprehend the back of a cereal box?

Pretentious is what the shows are called that are worth watching.

Complex stories aren't bad. But Lain's ideas aren't as complex as to require the story being told in the way it is.

You can tell a simple story in a simple way, a complex story in a simple way, a complex story in a complex way, but not a simple story in a complex way.

>Straightforward = good
>Complex = bad and pretentious
What a straightforward way to put it.

Of course. After all the quality of posts is extremely important to this community, and straightforward = good.

Bedeutungsschwanger is what we call it

I literally never call anything pretentious but in my mind something mostly comes across as that when it tries to do something more than just tell a straight forward story and fail - be it because the author didn't think it out enough or for other reasons.
The key part being that it failed.

I consider something pretentious when it presents itself as deeper or more meaningful than it really is. There is a certain degree of condescension involved in pretentiousness; it attempts to get the viewer's approval for the "intelligence" of its author rather than to display a message as the message itself requires to. Say, you wish to involve the reader or watcher emotionally, or transmit such an amalgam of information, thoughts and emotions that the only way to present them is through equally complex metaphors, very vague wording, symbolism, animation or such. Aesthetic is, after all, a collaborator of the narrative. That wouldn't be pretentious, that would be very rich from an artistic perspective. But if you try to beat around the bush and needlessly use the aforementioned narrative resources to display a scene or a message whose meaning is very obvious, hoping that people will think there's more to it than there really is, then you are being pretentious. I have watched none of those series (although I intent to) so I wouldn't be able to tell whether they could be called pretentious or not.

literally nothing
because nine times outta ten people would rather just throw around buzzwords rather than actually phrase out a coherent argument

The reliogious symbolism in Evangelion is a good example, since it is well know that its inclusion was shallow and pointless.
I still give Eva a pass since I still feel like the message at its core came from a very sincere place.
Trying to come up with other shows as examples would be controversial since the intent of the authors would be up to debate.
I try not to use the word pretentious when talking about shows I don't like since it makes for a weak and vague argument.
In general I cordially dislike any show that overly relies on symbolism, since for me it has the same applicability as references. You either get it or you don't, and a show that aims for a universal message should in my opinion strive for resonance rather than obscurity.

>Lain was "a sort of cultural war against American culture and the American sense of values we [Japan] adopted after World War II". [Ueda] later explained in numerous interviews that he created Lain with a set of values he took as distinctly Japanese; he hoped Americans would not understand the series as the Japanese would. This would lead to a "war of ideas" over the meaning of the anime, hopefully culminating in new communication between the two cultures. When he discovered that the American audience held the same views on the series as the Japanese, he was disappointed.

I think it's safe to consider that the idea of purposefully constructing your narrative a certain way solely for the purpose of confusing certain audiences, and failing anyway as pretentious.

To me it means the guys saying it is a retard.

embarrassing

>The reliogious symbolism in Evangelion is a good example, since it is well know that its inclusion was shallow and pointless.
But wouldn't that be the opposite. The creators are fully aware that the symbolism means nothing but it is there to look cool. It isn't pretending to be anything.

pre·ten·tious
/prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective
adjective: pretentious

attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

Under this definition I think Eva and Lain fit. Though Eva, and to a certain extent Lain (though Lain strikes me as the creator throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks in how it's constructed), both still manage to be enjoyable and I think you can offset pretension in something you make in certain ways. So for me it doesn't automatically make something bad. Texhnolyze however is both pretentious and shit.

This is a good point but then you have to ask yourself if that actually matters? Creator intent is generally meaningless in a variety of ways, death of the author and such. Just looking at both concepts side by side it does seem like they're incompatible to some extent.

"cool" in this sense means an air of sophistication. Which makes it pretentious because despite giving off such sense it's utterly meaningless. They can say whatever they want in interviews, it doesn't change the role said symbolism plays within the show itself.

Oh yes definitely.
Now knowing this makes the author look like a prick. It's kinda pathetic and rather amusing.
I still like Lain since I find the atmosphere it creates very involving and Lain's struggle with identity is fascinating to me.

I've never understood why Texhnolyze is considered pretentious. Sure, it's incredibly slow and needlessly dark but I never got the impression it was trying to spread some deep message. It was just made for a very niche audience.

Does it, though?

As long as we can agree on the fact that art is communication and not pedagogy, we can ascribe any failing of the work of art to pass on its message to the author.
Audiences are not free of obligation, since they should bring their knowledge when engaging with the work of art, but for an author to purposely getekeep the public for the sake of being obscure is the essence of pretention, and reeks of vanity and self-importance.
Not every show should appeal to the lowest common denominator, but every author should strive to get his message across to everyone who could benefit from it.

I agree that texhnolyze sucks ass, but I still think that calling it pretentious is a weak argument to express how shit it is

Prententious is most commonly a buzzword used by dumb people that got triggered because they couldn't understand what they were watching. So they then attack the anime to make their feeble minds feel better.

you're right about eva, retarded about lain

>it's utterly meaningless
I would say it lends itself to the aesthetic of the show. Which gives it meaning.
I think the series would be less without it.

Attached: [Sephirotic] Evangelion - The End of Evangelion - 26' [MULTI][BD 1080p 8bits 5.1 AAC][84BEB803] (1920x1080, 271K)

I hate being reminded that I share this board with complete idiots

What other kind of "cool" would the christian imagery in eva supposed to be? Was the intention to give it a ghetto aesthetic? Stop feigning ignorance.

You're the only one retarded

Eva, Lain, and Texhnolyze are not pretentious but Ergo Proxy and Boogiepop Phantom are.

Non-brainlets actually enjoy thinking and figuring out plot/themes without the creator shoving it in their face. It also allows a lot more room for other things, like scenes for setting the tone or general creative freedom. Things like Lain give you the best of both worlds.

>Pretentious
>Adjective
Meaning: Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.
-oxford dictionary

it's just Yea Forumsmericans spreading their retardation
I wonder how you would react to Hamlet.

>Take Evangelions Christian symbols as an example.
If people on Yea Forums don't trust Ikuhara's bullshitting, then why do they trust Anno putting on a retarded accent?
EVA isn't that vague

If you dislike a deep anime and post it here everyone will assume you that you "didn't undertand" or that "you are retarded" so you use the word "pretentious" as a defensive mechanism to try to look smart.
It is sad because it means you care enough about the opinion of anonymous people in this chinese noddle board.
Please don't use pretentious IRL like it is used here.

you are completely overacting, he centred the themes of Lain on what he thought was exclusive Japanese experiences - doesn't mean the show is meaningless. It's like calling Hamlet meaningless because it's a very English play which other cultures react to and interpret differently, he was trying to do what Hamlet does.
Formation of identity is important to Lain, which is why it references In Search of Lost Time

Monogatari is the most pretentious pile of crap ever to exist.

Anno was clearly lying and you know it
as I said, watch that fucking interview and it is clear he put on the dizziest voice possible

Wad hamlet specifically crafted with the explicit intention of confusing non english viewers? There's a difference between naturally born cultural differences in a work and being deliberately culturally obtuse (and failing). Intent is the entire point of the meaning of "pretentiouss", which Lain 100% is.

>>Wad hamlet specifically crafted with the explicit intention of confusing non english viewers?
it has a lot of themes around culture and perspective, and Hamlet is a deeply complex and constructed play. It is very possible

Hamlet. Ay, marry, why was be sent into England?
First Clown. Why, because 'a was mad. 'A shall recover his wits there; 3485
or, if 'a do not, 'tis no great matter there.
Hamlet. Why?
First Clown. 'Twill not he seen in him there. There the men are as mad as
he.

Gentleman. She speaks much of her father; says she hears
There's tricks i' th' world, and hems, and beats her heart;
Spurns enviously at straws; speaks things in doubt,
That carry but half sense. Her speech is nothing,
Yet the unshaped use of it doth move 2865
The hearers to collection; they aim at it,
And botch the words up fit to their own thoughts;
Which, as her winks and nods and gestures yield them,
Indeed would make one think there might be thought,
Though nothing sure, yet much unhappily. 2870

>mean to you
>mean to you
>mean to you

thats not how it works retard

Why is everyone shitting on you, you didn't even say it was bad, they just instantly saw the word pretentious and thought that's what it meant
ironically, straight forward thinking from all these autists

Are you being deliberately obtuse for the sake of argument or are you legitimately retarded?

There's a difference between creating a culturally specific work because those cultural aspects are what you want the narrative to be built around, and deliberately building a narrative in a unnecessary way in an attempt to confuse and therefore project greater merit than exists.

I don't use that word. I use the word 'bad' instead.

I would consider something to be pretentious if it just copied the aesthetic of something else without any of the substance or intelligence behind it, or if it tried to prove a really obvious point while acting like it's a startling new revelation. Lain and Eva aren't really that pretentious.

>for the purpose of confusing
Learn to read.

>deliberately building a narrative in a unnecessary way in an attempt to confuse and therefore project greater merit than exists.
He didn't do that though, you can see the Japanese aspects in the idea of personalities and masks - the inherit themes were Japanese not the narrative. The narrative would have stayed the same, with that idea or not.

He overestimated Japan's cultural differences with the west, the west is just subtler in its restrictions.
The things I would call pretentious is monotogari and indie games, they have 'artistic'-aesthetics', but no artistic meaning

Can you actually read anythyng without taking it entirely at face value? If you're building something with a very Japanese mindset specifically to make Americans understand it differently from the Japanese (who will understand it the correct way due to it being cinstructed in tgeir cultural language), then clearly the method by which you'll make them understand it differently is confusion. Why not actually try understand arguments and try to engage them in a constructive way instead of making these cringeworthy attempts at appearing clever?

Music has artistic aesthetics with no meaning. Are you saying music as an artform is inherently pretentious?

it has musical depth, if a musician is trying to sell an artistic image but his music isn't deep or complex than he us pretentious

ie, any rap-artist Yea Forums or pitchfork likes

I've always taken it to mean "work that thinks it's smarter than it actually is".

I've described Monogatari as this, as it is just another piece of harem light novel trash that tries to obfuscate it's fanservice with it's word-play and framing. It's not smart, at all, but it tries really hard to present itself as smart. As such, I call Monogatari pretentious.