Was he evil?

He wasn't evil, just idiot and then desperate. In eclipse, he became truly (and quite likely irrevocably) evil.

>”saying that makes me feel smart” is also not an agrument
Ok
That make’s you feel smart.

This. In the universe of Berserk forces actively conspire to force the usage of the Behelit.

i mean i wouldent have, because i dont have his ambition. i would never have got to that choice or even lived that long. however if i did make it there and somehow was given the choice i would do it. better than living as a cripple and wanting death.

Are you telling me, some god-like entity comes up to you, offers you immortality and infinite power and you would just go like; "Naaaaah, aint got no ambition nigga" WHEN YOURE A CRIPPLE?
Thats some bullshit right there.

Griffith Is a heartless and cruel sociopath willing to sacrifice anyone to achieve his selfish goal. He is the epitome of evil. He created massive amounts of destruction and suffering in the world so he could prop himself up as the savior and divine king of his new world. It's all a lie that he perpetuates to his worshipers because he wants to be God.

That's irrelevant. He sacrificed thousands of more comrades to get to that position even before the eclipse. He stopped caring about other people a long time before that

True Neutral

He was conceived by the idea of evil

So stupid and so wrong. Griffith is Satan tier evil. Only a truly cruel and evil monster would cause so much suffering for such a hollow and empty goal. Pure selfishness.

Yes

Would he still want Guts if he knew that Guts was used goods?

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Does griffith still think like griffith or is his mind kinda different as femto?

I feel like he lost part of himself in transformation?

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He lost all emotion except to Guts and Casca.

>t. brainlet

He is a messianic figure. Whether or not his actions come from selfishness the outcome is still the betterment of the world.

Griffith may as well have ceased to exist when Femto was born.

Simply false, and the fact people keep repeating this meme makes me wonder if they've even read berserk.
There's a very good reason the count comes right before the golden age arc, because in light of the count griffith's actions become unforgivable. The count was about to die, to be damned to eternal suffering, and all he had to do to stop it was sacrifice his daughter.
But he didn't, because he loved her too much to do that
Griffith wasn't even about to die, he'd lost everything, sure, but if he actually cared about his friends, the people who'd risked their lives to save him, he wouldn't damn them to an eternity of suffering.
But he didn't care about them, and easily gave into the godhand. He's a terrible human being, and anyone who claims they'd "do the exact same thing" are either liars, sociopaths like griffith, or have never actually truly loved anything in their lives

And even ignoring ALL that, there's still the rape of casca, an act of pure spite which he had NO reason to do other than get back at guts. That alone make him evil

>Griffith wasn't even about to die
There are things worse than death. He was an ambitious person and to be a useless cripple that didn't achieve anything would have been the worst thing in the world to him.

>There are things worse than death.
I'd say murdering everyone that loves and cares about you is one of those things.

I agree. Those things are not mutually exclusive.
He is explicitly not a sociopath and does care about his friends. That has been positively demonstrated many times and is not subject to interpretation.

I agree that he isn't a sociopath and did care about his friends. But that really does make his betrayal all the worse.

>There are things worse than death.
Yeah, like being damned to an eternity of suffering
You know what's not one of those things? Being a cripple because you couldn't keep it in your pants and decided "hey, I know, I'll fuck the princess! What's the worst that could happen"
>He was an ambitious person and to be a useless cripple that didn't achieve anything would have been the worst thing in the world to him.
Means nothing. Him being in that state is ENTIRELY his fault.

Whether it is his fault or not has nothing to do with it.

I've only seen the anime and the movies. Is the manga following the golden age arc worth it ?

I definitely wouldn't sacrifice all my comrades to a horde of blood-thirsty Apostles just so I could rule a fucking country.

Are you retarded?

it depends how much shit you are

Are you?

You're asking if the manga is worth reading after the flashback, so I ask again, are you retarded?

And I ask again, are you?

It absolutely does. The question in discussion is "was he evil."
You claimed, or at least implied, that he was justified by being a "useless cripple" which was "the worst thing in the world to him."
But he's the very reason he became a useless cripple. Actions have consequences, and Griffith, rather than facing the consequences of his actions, decided to take the easy way out and sacrifice the people you said he "does care" about, damning them to an eternity of suffering, all because of his own stupidity. Then to top it all off, he rapes casca for no reason other than to spite guts.
He's undeniably evil, the fact that he was in a bad spot he caused doesn't change that

I noticed that most heros suffer before they become the hero.
Guts was born from a dead woman, abused and raped, but the only thing Griffith went through before becoming the leader of the Hawks was being poor.
In comparison, Griffith is the whiny rich kid who had it all yet still complained, while Guts was the poor kid who never showed a frown (or at least tried to).
So, Griffith is not a hero, his current kingdom prospers, but there has been no sign of that it was his intention. It's also not really his kingdom, because it was already there buried under the ground, yet another thing the spoiled brat was handed on a silver platter by crushing the meek (the people who trusted him and never did him any wrong).
Thus, Griffith is an evil arrogant pompous bastard

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What the fuck is even the point? You're a literal fucking demon god and you're playing Jesus with a bunch of humans? For what fucking purpose? Griffith is alive.

>You claimed, or at least implied, that he was justified
I haven't in the slightest. The user I first responded to claimed that he is a sociopath and didn't care about his friends which is wrong. That is all I was trying to say.

>The user I first responded to claimed that he is a sociopath and didn't care about his friends which is wrong
I am that user, and Griffith is most definitely a sociopath. You don't even need to bring in the godhand to show that, his actions throughout the beginning of the golden age arc show that. And he did not care about his friends, otherwise he wouldn't sacrifice them. Again, see the count. You can't say in the same breath "I care about these people" and "I'm also going to damn them to eternal torment." the latter is 100% contradictory to the former by definition.

This is wrong.

What if you were an emaciated gimp cripple and every continuous moment of your life was going to be suffering

Wow, nice argument pal. Sure convinced me

It wasn't meant to be an argument.
Your statement is explicitly wrong and you are using a logical fallacy to support it.

>Your statement is explicitly wrong and you are using a logical fallacy to support it.
It's not and I'm not. By definition care means "feel affection or liking" or "look after and provide for the needs of." damning someone to eternal torment goes against BOTH of these definitions.

...

Griffith deeply is aware of what of his actions, but his goal is to compensate what he did by making sure as a king that his kingdom and its citizens will be protected, in peace and not be harmed by anything since he also wants to separate humans and monsters.

Gonna be perfectly honest with you here: I think it'd be easier for me to just off myself.

his point is that he would take it in the situation you outlined, but that he would never be given that opportunity in the first place because doesn't have the ambition to reach that point in the first place

Why do we always have this thread.

He thought so too, until causality kicked in

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THIS

Next Berserk chapter that will release soon will be about Griffith.

>Griffith deeply is aware of what of his actions, but his goal is to compensate what he did by making sure as a king that his kingdom and its citizens will be protected, in peace and not be harmed by anything since he also wants to separate humans and monsters.
This was a pretty fair argument pre-Eclipse. At that point I'd say flat out he wasn't evil, ruthless yes but it was a shitty, ruthless time period and overall he did well by his people. Taking out the Queen and such like he did for example is something some would call evil, but I think that was well within the bounds of the game of power and what she was trying to do, and that their fat lazy sucking on the common people was the real evil. If he'd kept on like that and become king, "for the greater good" would hold a fair amount of weight. It could also well kick off a permanent boost for humanity, in terms of improved technology and government that would ratchet things forward for the whole nation.

The problem at this point though is that no matter how good he makes it for his people now as a God Hand, he has still turned the world to shit and cause such sheer ginormous numbers of deaths and made so much of the planet beyond the one special place a death zone that I don't think he could make up for it, nor is it necessarily bring humanity as a whole forward.

before eclipse he was a morally gray character, not good or evil, did evil for what he believed it was good and did good that could be considered evil at first sight, after eclipse he becomes the literal embodiment of evil, so yeah.

Imagine one of your friends kills everyone of your acquaintances, rapes and mindfucks your gf while trying to kill you, then releases a plague on your country and makes everyone move to his house to live in peace. Does that sound like a good guy to you?

It's true that he cannot redeem himself, by becoming a God Hand Griffith likely became more aware about the casuality of the Idea of Evil, so he essentially ruined the world to unsure that the idea would not ruin the fate of his kingdom, due to that don't even think Griffith would try to oppose the Idea of Evil.

he did nothing wrong

Blonde pretty boy with AMBITION is the worst archetype. Can't stand him, Reinhard or McGillis.

So put you grasses on nothing will be wong.

I would've done the same thing, and anyone who says otherwise is lying. I was bedridden for 2 weeks from a bad car accident and I was beyond miserable; I couldn't imagine being permantely crippled.

was Guts gay for Griffith?

New Ichigeki when? The scanlations only go a couple chapters into Volume 4...

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what about DIO?

Sometimes when I'm living my normal life, taking a walk, taking a shit, lying in bed before I drift off to sleep, I think about what Griffith did and I start to grind my teeth.

he was a dicklet

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>Griffith is the whiny rich kid
No he wasn't.

Griffith was an orphan who prostituted himself to save the lives of his little bros.

You're all fucking retarded.

There was suffering before Griffith. There will be no suffering after Griffith.

It's that simple.

except for the suffering of everyone outside Falconia as they are overrun by monsters

and the suffering of everyone in Fantasia as Griffith harvests their souls after they die

she wanted to fuck guts but casca stole him away

Not that user but you're wrong. It all depends on the degree of the "liking"

Yes he was evil.
Human sacrifice is evil.
Indiscriminate murder is evil.

That doesn’t make it okay nor not evil

You never truly loved someone

>durr ends justify durr meanz

Having the behelit in his possession at all meant that he was destined to become a God hand. Pre eclipse had no bearing on his life at all. He was that evil the whole time but it was never realized until then.

Everyone in Falconia are likely going to be harvested by Griffith for even more power the instant he deems it fitting. Don't kid yourself.

Didn't the latest translations just come out 8 days ago?

Yeah, for Chapter 22, but it's part of a volume. There's at least 4 more chapters that haven't been done yet.

Not sure if it's quite on topic for this thread but it's been posted in Berserk threads in the past.

Did Griffith even understand the nature of his contract with the God Hand or did he unwittingly doom the Band of the Hawk? Was the behelit just some magic amulet that he was told to use in a desperate situation that he didn't know the consequences of using? Did he not even know how to use it and just wind up using it accidentally in an attempt to kill himself? I don't actually remember.

What does Griffith do with the soul whisps that he's been interacting with?

Griffith did nothing wrong

Since when is it wrong for a commander to sacrifice his troops to win a battle? The hawks knew that they might die under Griffith's command and they knew that they might have to fight against demons every now and then and they chose to stay anyway

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As a member of the Godhand, souls he claims go straight to hell

Dto fight whom?

They are his possessions but I know he wouldn’t waste them no matter what. He’s narcsis

This it's actually horrifying considering how he's turned it into a majestic ceremony that all of his followers consider beautiful

Ok so lets say the whole sacrificing his squad wasn't evil right. It was for the greater good, he had no choice, etc, etc. Cool, fine.
How do you justify him raping a chick in front of her boyfriend just to spite him though. Clearly that was evil, and so therefore we can conclude that Griffith was in fact evil.

Casca wanted to fuck him all her life so it wasn't really rape. Also Griffith and Femto are basically different people in terms of personality

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>Also Griffith and Femto are basically different people in terms of personality
Not really. Those are still feelings from Griffith. The whole rape thing was 100% something Griffith wanted to do. Griffith was fucking SEETHING ever since Guts left, it was his way of fucking with Guts and that was pretty clear.

True but Griffith had empathy while Femto doesn't. Unless he's just larping

He killed people for money ever since. He was porably not evil, but egoistic and nihilistic in some ways. He became truely evil, when the King broke him and I dont think, that he would have sacrificed the whole brotherhood, before he was tortured.

Griffith had some empathy, but it's not like he was an angel before.

He needed to "rape" Casca to impregnate her with his demonic seed.

He wasn't perfect but he was still selling his body to fat old men and self-harming because of how guilty he felt over everyone who died for him

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I'm on chapter 70 bros

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I thought the selling his body thing was for money/status at the time.
Didn't he end up killing those guys too anyway?

He did it for money so that they wouldn't have to fight as much to pay for the army stuff. He doesn't directly say it but it's pretty clearly implied when he goes I DON'T FEEL GUILTY AT ALL HAHA PLS TRUST ME while cutting his arms open

>already knows the story
>ch 70
damn user

No, but Griffith was totally gay for Guts

>he thinks the demon baby was part of the plan and isn't going to be the fatal flaw that will lead to his defeat

Ubik and Conrad fucked with him into making the sacrifice, as they're the prime manipulators amongst the Godhand. But never once did they do anything that directly defied his free will. They just did shit that would push him into seeing the sacrifice as worth it for his "castle."

The rest is all Griffith.

he's chaotic neutral. you can count on him to serve himself every time. sometimes he follows strict rules of personal conduct. sometimes he rapes caska because he can. sometimes he competently leads large armies to numerous victories. sometimes he risks everything to fuck a princess.

He never intended for the Demon Child. In fact, he didn't even KNOW about it. Casa was pregnant from before, but his demonic seed caused what wouldve been a normal, easily killed kid to become something that could very well put him down.

causality makes morality moot in berserk

Not literally, dude.

>Griffith was an orphan who prostituted himself to save the lives of his little bros
Also, no, he did it to gain funds so the band of Hawk could continue to realize his goal.
He did it all by his own free will and had to carry the consequences which eventually broke him.
Like the spoiled rich kid, he wasn't up to the task and had to become a literal monster to fulfill it.
Guts went trough events objectively worse and it didn't broke him.
Guts rolled into his situation, but Griffith chose it.
Again, Griffith was a poor orphan, but that is literally all.
As far as we know, nothing was ever done to him to justify sacrificing as many in war as he did.
All that happened to Griffith were the consequences of his desires, unlike Guts who simply rolled into one bad situation after another.
He didn't even chose to pick up a sword the first time, unlike Griffith.
Same goes for the murders, Griffith chose them for his goal, guts did them to survive.
Again, it's the whiny rich kid vs the badass poor kid.

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Kek, what? He did that after he went and he went because the band was in no shape to fight to acquire the funds themselves at that moment if i remember correctly.
It wasn't nobel, it was a way to not have his master plan delayed.
And he couldn't bear the consequences of his own actions for once.
The entire "i can't let you suffer alone" was said after the fact and not before.
it could have easily been a white lie to gain sympathy as it could have been the truth, nothing was implied there.

dumb sonia

Casca suggested to Griffith that they could have just fought a few battles to get the money they needed and Griffith replied that every time they fight they lose more men, and then started having mental breakdown and rambling about how he doesn't feel guilty. Even the the most thickheaded reader should realize at least after the Eclipse how guilty he felt about leading thousands to their deaths

Thus, he did it to achieve his goals quicker, because losing his soldiers would mean that he failed.
The mental breakdown was after he felt shame of having becoming a whore and not before.
Miura is a man of psychology and a coping persons will tell itself and others all the lies they want to hear.
Also, he had the moment to chose to not sacrifice his peons during the dream in the image here , but he didn't.
His dreams were more important to him than anything else.

It doesn't matter if it was before or after. The point is that he felt clear guilt in that scene and several other scenes like when the kid in the band died. Clearly he wasn't in the best mental shape during the Eclipse but if he did not choose to make the sacrifice then he would have killed thousands of people for nothing. So he chose to go forward and kill more so that the people he already killed didn't die in vain

>utterly ignores his raping of casca

It was an accident, it was dark and he thought she was Guts

>It doesn't matter if it was before or after. The point is that he felt clear guilt in that scene
Of course it did, because the scene with Casca showed shame, not guilt.
Not once have we seen griffith show any guilt for having led his soldiers to their deaths, except for the underage kid.
Hell, he even justified their deaths the entire time, because they were necessary for his goals. He also said that they weren't his equals by acknowledging that they didn't had any goals of their own at the ball, which was the inspiration for Guts to leave.
Griffith needed pawns not friends, which is why the kid who died didn't fit in.
Which makes it one time out of the countless other dead soldiers that were ignored
Fawning over one dead kid instead of hundreds of dead comrades doesn't mean that he was suddenly feeling guilt for all his dead soldiers.
> if he did not choose to make the sacrifice then he would have killed thousands of people for nothing
He didn't knew that he would be able to create a utopia before he was a demon. Falconia was a good situation born out of a selfish desire at the cost of thousands their lifes.
He continued to fight for kingdom before he was offered to become immortal, so why the hell would he refuse the offer? He wouldn't, because as you said, he was already sacrificing his people in the first place

i hope that griffith worshipping whore gets impaled by dragonslayer

>le "griffith was pure evil he never felt any guilt even though he was literally self-harming and crying and apologizing to his victims it was all an act lmao" meme

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>He did self-harm, like most whores
>He was a lying cunt like most whores
Concession accepted

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Next you're going to tell me that he never cared about the hawks

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i mean he didnt really give a shit if all those men fighting zod died he only cared for guts

Except that the sacrifice doesn't work unless you sacrifice something you love. He didn't sacrifice just Guts, he sacrificed them all

Obviously not enough to not have them die for him.
Normal people don't send the people they care for into war and neither do they sacrifice them to become a demon

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Everyone forgets he didn't want Guts involved in the eclipse what so ever. Griffith was just powerless to stop guts. So once it was too late, it's too late and he's going to perform the ritual to the best of his abilities.

Almost anyone would do the sacrifice in his situation but just don't want to admit it

He was already gone before the eclipse

they where just along for the ride

"A fitting sacrifice" is required, not necessarily something you love.
The kid in the conviction ark, who was buried under the pile of corpses sacrificed the world in order the build a new one and became the egg-shaped apostle.
His sacrifice was not based on love, but it was fitting.

Maybe so, but only hypocrites would try to justify it as anything other than selfish or evil and that's what the thread's about.

>Except that the sacrifice doesn't work unless you sacrifice something you love
That's completely wrong and the fact Griffith apologists keep getting the quote wrong annoys me to no end.
You have to sacrifice something that's "a part of you," which does not mean it has to be something you love.
Do you think void loved all the people in Genseric's city? Or the egg of the perfect world loved "the world in its current state"?
While it is fair to say the hawks clearly were important to Griffith, to say he loved them because he sacrificed them is pure bullshit

This.
If anything, this fact shows that Griffith didn't really care about the hawks, and certainly didn't love them.
If he did, he would wanted them to stay away and not sacrifice them, like guts

The egg man was gay so normal rules don't apply. As Slan explained, it needs to be someone so close to you that it's like sacrificing a part of yourself which is why you cease to be human

It's not evil at all unless you think humanity is evil. Selfish, sure

Being a part of you equals love. No enough information about Gaiseric

>Being a part of you equals love
The egg of the perfect world hated the world and sacrificed it for that reason. There was no love involved and the world wasn't a part of him, but it was fitting to sacrifice the old world to create a new one.

>Being a part of you equals love
No it doesn't. It means it's important to you, that's all. You can hate something that's a part of you. You can be ambivalent to it. Again, void and the egg both show you don't have to love something to sacrifice it.
Griffith did not love the hawk's. He loved guts that's made very very clear, but that's it, for that very reason he didn't want guts to be part of the eclipse.

Egg was gay. Blame Miura for changing the rules

Egg is canon if you like it or not, and it shows you're full of shit.
And it's not just the egg. Void, again, sacraficed a whole city, and there's no way he knew everyone in that city enough to love them. And Griffith and the count both showed that if someone truly loves something (guts/count's daughter) they'd want them to not be sacrificed.

>Void, again, sacraficed a whole city, and there's no way he knew everyone in that city enough to love them
Prove it

>It's not evil at all unless you think humanity is evil
Evil: morally reprehensible, causing discomfort or repulsion, causing harm, something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity.
Yeah, Griffith is evil by definition.
The rest is irrelevant.

>As Slan explained
>Trusting another whore
When will purehearts learn?

It's not morally reprehensible to save yourself even if it means that others will die. It's normal human survival instinct

At the time of his sacrafice, he was locked in a tower, and had been for years.
But let's be reasonable. Let's say he was in there for only a year. In a year, it's guaranteed that at least one baby is born. Void coudln't have known this baby, being locked in the tower. But as he sacrificed the whole city, that means he must have sacrificed this baby he didn't know

Also, while I'm indulging your faggotry, you are completely ignoring the main points about the egg being canon and both count and Griffith not wanting the one they love to be sacrificed

Lots of assumptions.

Egg is a special case. It doesn't work like the rest since it wasn't human in the first place

Hiatus ends in 5 days bros don't be sad

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>It doesn't work like the rest since it wasn't human in the first place
Except he was human. And again, ignoring the main points.

he wasn't saving himself, because Guts already saved him.
he was dissatisfied with his position, just like when he was poor and decided to sacrifice those who trusted him, again.
Yes, it is morally reprehensible.
He was evil and being morally reprehensible was just one of the reasons for why

He was the kid buried underneath all the dead bodies in front of the tower

He was a human but not when he was doing the sacrifice.

He wasn't saved. His condition was worse than death

Not true, the sacrifice made him an apostle and as an behelit apostle he caused the change of the world.

>He was a human but not when he was doing the sacrifice.
Not at all true. He was 100% human up till he activated the Beherit, which he did because he was about to die

In other words, not a human.

Yeah he sure looked human lmao

He was freed from the cellar and thus saved from torture. The fact that his condition got worse, because of his own wrongdoings changes nothing. He was saved by Guts and had the chance to walk a completely different route. He even dreamt about living a happy life with Casca as a cripple, but got butthurt into sacrificing his soldiers again

if he was a holy man he would probably care deeply for every soul

This was him before the sacrifice.
The picture you have in your head was after he made the sacrifice to be the egg that will hatch the new world.

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>Yeah he sure looked human lmao
t. speedreader
We only ever see the egg in his apostle form
Do you think zodd, the count and even Griffith weren't humans before their sacrifice because they become monsters after it?

You mean like Mogus?
Kek, holy men don't exist.

There was only one way of saving him and that was the sacrifice

He's clearly a troll, no wonder they chased him out

is SK gonna come back or are we waiting for him to deus ex machina the final battle?

Totally. Im rereading for the 15th time and he smiles like a happy little fuck after learning that Guts also assassinated the kid.

>There was only one way of saving him
Saving him from what? Bearing the consequences of his evil actions?

he's worthless and can't do shit
but epic design

Also he tried to have Rickert killed.

Every time I think he's omnipotent I remind myself he couldn't even kill Rickert, the Krillin of Berserk

I hope he comes back. I want to beat the shit out of him

From being a cripple. Griffith did no commit any evil actions so I dunno what you are talking about

>randomly tries to give Guts girl advice
>makes a dumb sword that does nothing
His horse is the most useful thing about him

Yes he is evil, all the good he ever done for others was just to use them to achieve his dream ultimately. He is now roleplaying "god"

>Griffith did no commit any evil actions
He did if his actions caused discomfort or repulsion, harm, sorrow, distress, or calamity and yes, his actions brought that.

>From being a cripple
Saving? No. He needed a good healer and chose the one who likes to get paid in blood.

Evil is subjective so your silly dictionary definition is irrelevant.

No healing was possible. He tried to kill himself and couldn't even manage to do that so he chose the only path left for him, just like almost any other human would

His results aren't evil but his actions and motives are.

damn i could use a horse like that

You never truly loved yourself.

>Evil is subjective
no, people have a subjective opinion of evil, but there is still an objective definition.

>No healing was possible
Baseless assumption, because they never asked the elves and magicians.

>he chose the only path left for him
Wrong, the other path was to live happily with Casca and their dog named Guts like the dream showed.

>thousands
Dude was the commander of a small elite mercenary band, hundreds would already be stretching it.

Then by that definition the entire humankind is evil.
>the other path was to live happily with Casca
How could he live happily knowing that he killed thousands for nothing and spit on their graves by not going forward? Now that would be evil

Band of the Falcon was in the thousands when it became part of Midland's general army.
Casca and Guts were both 1000 man commanders.

He'd ended a 100 year war dude. That's enough accomplishment. I guess he'd feel guilty about all the royal/noble assassinations he did though.

I'm glad Miura made a character for all the Griffith dindu nuffins

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Reality is a bitch, deal with it.

There's literally nothing written about him other than "he has ambition". At all. He wasn't well or bad written, he is hardly even a character.

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Obviously he shouldn't feel guilty since he didn't personally kill anyone except his enemies. But he feels guilty nontheless. From Griffith's perspective doing the sacrifice was the morally correct thing to do

>There's literally nothing written about him other than "he has ambition".
And how that plays out, along with his relationship with others.

>Then by that definition the entire humankind is evil.
Irrelevant to whether or not Griffith is evil

>How could he live happily knowing that he killed thousands for nothing
Those are the consequences any responsible human would bear.
He who plays with fire gets burned, no need to murder more people, because you screwed up.
Also, he even believed that his soldiers wanted to continue to fight for him after they died, that's how megalomaniacle he was.

>Now that would be evil
No, it would have prevented the evil acts he committed later on.

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Yet the fact remains that only one in a million would refuse to sacrifice the band in his situation. You are free to call that evil but then you have to accept that that means that almost all of humanity is just as evil

I fucking hate this threads. It was funny at first but now it's not even ironic. People ACTUALLY think Griffith isn't evil. The fact that you are even questioning if he's evil should give you a fucking clue.
>B-but muh guilt, he didn't have any other choice
Shut the fuck up, by those mental gymnastisc all the fucking god hand and the apostles are good boys that dindu nothing

>There's literally nothing written about him other than "he has ambition". At all. He wasn't well or bad written, he is hardly even a character.

His whole character is defined through his abandonment of that ambition for his homolust. He's pretty deep in the golden age and during the eclipse while he's juggling his ambition, regret, and love (later jealousy and resentment too).
Falcon of Light is two dimensional though, mostly because we've yet to get any internal monologue.

Maybe you should go read Naruto or something if you want "villain bad hero good" stories

>is a servant of the "Idea of evil"
>People claim he is anything but evil
Griffith is objectively evil in the berserk universe, since he objectively serves the idea of evil

Honestly though everything after the kushan invasion he's done has been on the up and up

>Yet the fact remains that only one in a million would refuse to sacrifice the band in his situation.
Prove it

based
i want to make my clown and sex myself

"No"

I can't help you if you are naive enough to think most humans are that brave and noble. It's all an act and in a real situation most would eat their families alive if it meant survival

The final boss of Naruto was similar to Griffith. The whole "free-will vs utopia" thing is an easy way to give credence to a villain's drive.

>Yet the fact remains that only one in a million would refuse to sacrifice the band in his situation
Yet, only those who are willing to sacrifice people are given the offer of sacrifice in the first place. Which is why nobody, i repeat nobody has turned down the sacrifice yet.

>You are free to call that evil
Only evil people get the offer to sacrifice

>but then you have to accept that that means that almost all of humanity is just as evil
Why do you think that's a point and why would i care? We all know that humanity currently isn't the best thing to happened to this world. If the description of evil fits humanity then humanity is evil. Your personal opinion might be to disagree, but opinions are irrelevant when they contradict reality.

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So you admit you made a baseless claim you can't prove to support your ridiculous idea that Griffith, who literally serves the very idea of evil, isn't evil?
Ok, good to know, thanks for playing

>Which is why nobody, i repeat nobody has turned down the sacrifice yet.
Are you joking? the very first sacrifice we see is one where it's turned down

Wouldn't make the deed not evil and thats' what the OP's about

I just can't see Irvene being evil or sacrificing someone to gain power.
Man so chill.

>Which is why nobody, i repeat nobody has turned down the sacrifice yet.
Stopped reading here, maybe go read Black Swordsman again

Wow there's a thing called the idea of EVIL? I guess that means that all morality in Berserk is black and white and not grey after all. Really activates almonds

Wrong, the count had already sacrificed his wife.
He wanted another offer to get stronger to defeat Guts

>Stopped reading here
No arguments to support your case that Griffith was not evil
Concession accepted

Sure, he did want to sacrifice guts, but he couldn't because it wasn't a proper sacrifice. And sure, while he already sacrificed his wife, it doesn't change he refused to sacrifice his daughter, which was the only thing he could sacrifice to the god hand to get his wish of being able to live

Wow, I wonder why, could it be that it's almost like I never said that Griffith is evil?

Maybe you should read more literature instead of just wating for the villain to out himself as a bad guy. Thank god Rickert is not as dumb as you and slapped his shit and left even after seeing his "good deeds"
Please don't tell me you actually think he and the god hand aren't up to no good

>I guess that means that all morality in Berserk is black and white and not grey after all.
When it comes to the god hand and apostles, yes, it is objectively black and white. They are objectively servants of evil

THIS

not evil*

Griffith is going to fuck over everyone in Falchonia and EVEN THEN you fags will say he did nothing wrong. screencap this shit.

No they aren't.

So Griffith is evil?
Concession accepted again

>serve the idea of evil
>hurr durr they don't actually serve evil
Ok retard, whatever you say.

Not in my opinion. But people are free to think that way as long as they are honest and admit that Griffith being evil means that humanity is evil.

>Please don't tell me you actually think he and the god hand aren't up to no good
It just seems too obvious, lazy writing. I'd like to see an ending where Griffith is killed by Guts and then Guts is killed by the masses of Falconia. Something with a little effort.

And also god hand doesn't give a shit, they chillin in their own realms not a care in the world. Slan said so herself.

Griffith is called a white hawk, does that mean he is literally a hawk? Just because it's called the idea of evil doesn't make it evil

The baron demanded an offer, he wasn't offered one
The baron also wasn't human at that point.
So, i dare say that the count doesn't fall under normal circumstances

And in the discussion we had i proved that he objectively was and that opinions don't matter in the face of reality.
Why would it matter if humanity is evil?
If you're honest, you know that we are.

He's called that because an aspect of him is a hawk, in this case his armor. In the case of the idea of evil, that means there must be something evil about him
And the idea of evil outright states it's the "Reasons for pain. Reasons for sadness. Reasons for death. Reasons why their lives were filled with suffering. "
If that doesn't sound evil to you, then your just as evil as Griffith

Objective evil does not exist. Why does it matter? Because that's what we were arguing about. I never said that humanity is or is not evil

If I call you evil do you suddenly turn evil? Pain, sadness, death and suffering are not evil

Ok, great, we've established that you're just as evil as Griffith. Now go sacrifice your friends to demons or something

Oh my god you really think they aren't doing shit don't you. Why do you think they recruited Femto, helped him get a body and made fantasia mmmmh?

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>Objective evil does not exist
Sounds like those "time doesn't exist' people.
Evil has charasterics that define it. When these charasteristics apply a person or deed can objectively be called evil.

>Because that's what we were arguing about.
No, we weren't. You suddenly mentioned that humanity must be evil as if it was some sort of argument. Again, follow the facts, not your opinion

I'd kill my friends to stop being a cripple. ofc I would've never gotten into that position in the first place because I'm too much of a sperg to fuck the princess anyways

>They knew they might have to fight demons every now and then
Fucking speedreader. Zodd was a battlefield legend, nobody in Golden Age Midland knew demons existed back then. Wyald was the first full exposure the entire Band of the Hawk had to demonkind, which was immediately before the Eclipse. Literally no one knew they'd be sacrificed to turn Griffith into Batman except for Wyald, Zodd, and demons who could sense the Crimson Behelit. The ENTIRE POINT of the Golden Arc was each member being a small flame of dreams flickering and melding under Griffith's ambition. Guts had no ambition beyond living, but everyone else, even Griffith, had a dream of the future. The Band of the Hawk was a way to achieve their dreams, not become demon chow.

A person can be good, but another person can be better. We're not all equally good or evil.

If you hit your toe and it hurts do you say "damn this pain is evil"? I doubt it

That was the only thing we were talking about. Griffith's actions are rational and morally justifiable. You can call them evil all you want but most people would do the same

Fuck off demon

Any rational person would have fucked off right after Wyald. It was their own fault for staying

Pretty much everything demon-related sends you to the soul spiral. Vargas got killed by a demon, Count Slug was a demon, and all the branded go to hell. Only way to avoid hell is get killed by a farmer or some shit.

So that he could break down the astral borders and they could follow their basest desires in other dimensions even easier. The godhand don't have the ambition of Femto. Ambition is femto's basest desire, of course.

They were all planning to do so. Judeau was gonna take care of Griffith and they'd all go their separate ways.

>That was the only thing we were talking about.
Humanity no, Griffith yes.
Also, you still haven't explained why i should care if humanity can objectively be seen as evil.

>You can call them evil all you want but most people would do the same
Doesn't make his actions not objectively evil, my dude. Also, Argument ad populum.

>Griffith's actions are rational and morally justifiable
Rape is morally justifiable, so that's not an argument against the fact that his actions were objectively evil.

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>He didn't read Skull Knight's exposition about how the baby isn't Griffith's
Retarded speedreader

It's pointless to argue with you since you keep putting words in my mouth. When did I say that you should care about it?

Nah, this "kite" is gonna get shot by an arrow and bleed out slowly. Rickert will do what he needs to.

Swhat I've been saying all along. Griffith's demise will be because his feelings for Guts overwhelmed his ambition, like always.
It's why he was injured by Zodd, why he was imprisoned, and it'll be why his kingdom collapses. He's a flawless being in all ways but one.

Was he evil?

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Griffith's "evil" actions were just due to self-preservation instinct that every human being has. If those are evil then everyone is

He was only true to his desire. Besides Gambino told him it was cool.

no, you would do it too in his place. if you say he's evil, then all of humanity is evil

That's not true though. His actions were because of his ambition, self-preservation hat nothing to do with it.
For a normal person that would be the most important, but it wasn't what was on Griffith's mind.

SK will ride around on his magic horse until Zodd or a God Hand chops him up and "reveals" he's Supreme King Gaiseric.

Being an insane cripple is the polar opposite of his ambition. So obviously that would motivate him to say yes to the godhand

>Everybody acting shocked
It's like Isidro learning Guts is the 100 man slayer at this point.

Rickert made Guts' entire prosthetic arm, killed multiple trolls during Fantasia, and was the first being to touch new Griffith. Rickert is based you DBZfag.

Why did you bring it up in the first place?

Yeah but self-preservation wasn't the goal, it was the means.

Sooooo... Where does story go now?

With Casca back, the only thing that matters is Griffith's kingdom. Will it finally end soon?

Yet, his actions were evil before he became a cripple

>Forgetting that his Sword of Acuation literally causes Griffith to get everything he wants at the cost of screwing the entire world

I had originally typed out Yamcha, but I took his contributions into consideration. Krillin chopped off Frieza's tail after all.

be honest WE will all end before berserk ends

Because you called Griffith evil even though he is the most human character in Berserk. Even Guts is more "evil" than him in the traditional sense

Name one

>Giant brain dooms Band of the Hawk to gruesome deaths
> Isn't a villain

If rickert was worth a damn his would've built a suicide vest and taken out Griffith's human body, exposing femto to the princess and everyone
wyald is more human than griffith

>Wrong
Nope. He got the chance to sacrifice his daughter and turned it down. He actually considered it, too.

His motif is a hawk. God Hand dispersed visions of the Hawk of Light to the people of Midland. It's too fucking simple to miss.

The fact it is called the Idea of Evil exposes a skepticism concerning the concept of evil. It is not the origin of all suffering but the concocted explanation for it. It is essentially a scapegoat, something for people to point their finger at. If the concept of evil is evil in itself, it must be rid of. But there will still be suffering in the world.

No, anyone would rape a 6 year-old child soldier for 6 silver if they had the chance. Donavon was only following his ambition. Guts knew what who coming. Donavon.

So he's a hawk? How can he talk is he's a hawk?

Ok, so it wasn't an argument and thus irrelevant to the OP.
And nobody claimed that Guts isn't evil or never committed evil deeds. You're moving the goalposts, dude.
Also, Guts isn't more evil in the traditional sense, because he was murdering for a job, while Griffith ordered the murders out of a desire.
Guts looks evil and compared to him Griffith looks like a saint, totally destroying the ancient stereotypes of the black knight being evil and the white knight being the good guy, but again that's based on appearances and the ancient stereotypes were based on more than appearances.

>Name one
War, theft, arson, vandalism, murder, conspiracy, ordering assassinations you know, all the things he and the band did.

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How many chapters have we gone since a rape scene?

He ordered to be given another chance to sacrifice as a demon, while everyone who accepted the sacrificed was offered one and was human. I'd cal the slug demon a huge exception that might not even fit the same category because of the aforementioned reasons

Guts kills demons that menace townsfolk and villagers. He protects Casca through her catatonic state and hesitates to kill humans. He only cares to kill demons that are a negative impact on the world as a whole.
Griffith brings demons into the world for shits and giggles and LARPing as a holy king.

>War
He didn't start it, nothing evil in fighting for your people
>theft
Even theft is evil? What did he steal anyway?
>arson
He killed people who tried to kill him, nothing wrong with that
>vandalism
Wow... very evil
>murder, conspiracy, ordering assassinations
Again, he only killed people who tried to kill him

>Even theft is evil? What did he steal anyway?
Band of Hawk began as thieves. That's how Casca ran into them
>Again, he only killed people who tried to kill him
He was happy that Guts killed the kid

King Richard I A.K.A Richard the Lionheart was a Lion? How could he wage war? Don't tell me he wasn't actually a human who had traits that many attributed to an animal that represents those traits! Symbolism is really hard guys!

You don't know that he was happy about that. He didn't order him to do it anyway

What exactly is your point? Because that is literally what I said. Idea of Evil is not evil just because it's called that and your Richard isn't a lion just because he's called that. I dunno who you are arguing with

>You don't know that he was happy about that. He didn't order him to do it anyway
There was a full 1/3rd panel of him grinning like an idiot.

He was happy that Julius was dead. If he wanted the kid dead too then he would have ordered Guts to do it

He was happy that he got the freebie. leaves less room for succession power struggles.

He participated in wars, not to end them (which would have been nobel), but to make a name for himself.
Thus he murdered soldiers to make a name for himself
>Even theft is evil
If it fits the definition then it is. I'm suspecting that you think of Satan anytime anyone mentions the word "evil". Also, it has never been shown that they bought the possessions they had. Even looting corpses is a form of theft.
He also committed arson and vandalism during the many sieges.
Sieging a castle or the destruction of property falls under vandalism, vandalism is an umbrella term.
>Again, he only killed people who tried to kill him
Not at all, he killed in the wars he joined out of his own free will to make his.
He murdered to ensure his path to power, not to protect his hide, at least not every time

Maybe, but he didn't order it anyway. A happy accident

>He participated in wars, not to end them
Being a soldier is not evil. Killing your enemies is only normal. What should they do, bend over and let Tudor invade? Anyway, he did want to end the war, even if mostly because it would advance him
>Even looting corpses is a form of theft.
Not in a medieval society. It would be standard practice
>He murdered to ensure his path to power
True, but he never attacked them first so he was justified

>Being a soldier is not evil
He wasn't a soldier he was part of a group of mercenaries, guns for hire.
>Not in a medieval society. It would be standard practice
Guy, slavery was standard practice in medieval society, doesn't make it any less evil
>True, but he never attacked them first so he was justified
Dude, they were a band of mercenaries, murderers for hire. They weren't killing out of self-defense.

>He wasn't a soldier he was part of a group of mercenaries
Mercenaries are soldiers, come on now
>slavery was standard practice in medieval society
Yes, but it's not the same thing. Nobody is going to return the dead people's stuff to their families. Either the winning side takes them or someone else takes them
>Dude, they were a band of mercenaries, murderers for hire. They weren't killing out of self-defense.
Tudor invaded Midland. Is that not self-defense? It doesn't matter either way. Soldiers kill each other, that's their job

>He participated in wars, not to end them (which would have been nobel), but to make a name for himself.
Those can go hand in hand and often did in reality. Griffith had to make a name for himself to achieve anything.

He was ultimately evil for sacrificing everyone who cared about him to get what he wanted, and once he did that he was even more evil for torturing the survivors for no other reason than being able to

>Mercenaries are soldiers, come on now
Mercenaries pick their battles, soldiers don't
>Yes, but it's not the same thing. Nobody is going to return the dead people's stuff to their families. Either the winning side takes them or someone else takes them
You can say the same about slaves
>Tudor invaded Midland. Is that not self-defense?
Yes, the army was fighting to protect the kingdom, but mercenaries fight to make a buck.
>Soldiers kill each other, that's their job
No, their job is to protect the kingdom.
Killing is sometimes involved.

The world would have been a better place if he had done nothing

It would be shit as always.

Absolutely yes

>Griffith had to make a name for himself to achieve anything
Could have became a politician and not take advantage of the war to achieve his goal.
also, his goal wasn't to become knighted, as was normal in those times. His goal was to overthrow the king and to establish his own kingdom from the start, which didn't often happen in reality

The entity created after the eclipse is no longer quite Griffith, need to keep in mind that Femto has some very human elements (like empathy) removed from him, feelings he himself confirmed were gone when he meet up with guts for the first time after the eclipse.

>Could have became a politician
In a medieval world. Be more retarded, please.

implying evil exists
fucking brainlets

Reposting:
Do you guys not understand his whole ambition had nothing to do with being THE king? From the very beginning it was always a quest to cure his homosexuality. From the time he was young it was rampant, natural trap cocklust overtook him. So desperately he desired to be straight that he tried to do the manliest possible thing he could, become a badass mercenary leader. So strong was his ambition that he successfully overcame his desire to be a little fuckboy and actually rallied together one of the best mercenary bands in Midland and killed tons of people for money like a real man.

But it all came falling apart with Guts. He was irresistible, especially to a flaming faggot who loves the strongest, most muscular and handsome men and Guts is 10/10 in all those regards. It built up slowly but he kept it repressed, choosing to fuck an old man while thinking of Guts under the pretense of "fueling his ambition" as a horribly counterproductive way of venting the desire, and it hit critical mass when Guts whooped his ass and left and he was left in the snow heartbroken and gay.

In his last desperate attempt to achieve heterosexuality he went nuclear and fucked the primest, ripest piece of fresh, royal virgin pussy in the land, if that didn't work nothing would. But the results were inconclusive as he got his balls cut off along with about 40% of other bodily tissue over the course of a long year or two and suddenly his life wasn't about being gay or straight anymore. His rescue and subsequent Eclipse was the ultimate culmination, the final staged of producing a clean, heterosexual, completely pure and undicked body of beauty and power. This is evidenced by him christening it with the nearest fuckable pussy (Guts really took it the wrong way) cementing his heterosexuality for eons to come as he takes the fresh flower he'd picked a few years ago as his reward for finally being straight.

That is literally the entire premise for Berserk.

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>Mercenaries pick their battles, soldiers don't
That is true, but what does it matter? Griffith mostly fought for Midland anyway and he didn't go around killing innocent people.
>You can say the same about slaves
What? No you can't. Taking property that nobody owns anymore is not the same as slavery
>Yes, the army was fighting to protect the kingdom, but mercenaries fight to make a buck.
They fought on the defender's side nonetheless
>No, their job is to protect the kingdom.
Killing is sometimes involved.
That's wrong. Soldiers do what they are ordered. Both sides are trying to kill each other. Soldiers aren't generally considered murderers after they come home from war

>He was neither good nor evil.
Utterly evil. Ego the size of the universe. Sacrificed his best friends and comrades to Evil itself so he could become part of it.

>(Guts really took it the wrong way)

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He could have conned his way into power, but also by starting with semi-formal politics, gaining influence and growing from there.
Instead of gaining the support of the soldiers, he could have started with gaining the respect of the people and grew from there.

I'd have to say no, Griffith wasn't in the wrong here.

We need to recall both the flashbacks from right before his transformation into Femto and the chapter going over Griffith seeing the doll knight of the young boy who died fighting for him. When Griffith saw that doll and consequently the results of his ambition, he made the choice to keep going, thinking that if he stopped now he'd be throwing all their lives away for nothing, Griffith also never lied to anyone about his army, no one was forced to fight for him nor were they made promises he wasn't planning on keeping.

So although they died in ways not even Griffith could of foreseen, they still died on the field for Griffith, and Griffith still couldn't allow everyone who had fought for him to die for nothing, to let all those bodies leading up to the castle to go to waste.

>Griffith mostly fought for Midland anyway and he didn't go around killing innocent people.
Yes, but you're acting as if he fought to protect, which he clearly didn't. That's why it matters.
>No you can't. Taking property that nobody owns anymore is not the same as slavery
Slaves were property and if you won't pick up a slave, someone else might do it, so why leave it? It's the same type of reasoning.
>They fought on the defender's side nonetheless
By chance, not intent. He didn't sought out the winning side, he was simply born there.
>That's wrong. Soldiers do what they are ordered.
Fighting is a part of their tasks, not all of their tasks. Therefore, killing isn't their job, it's a part of it. Their job is to protect the kingdom and its interests.

>he could of gained the respect of the people

You either had power or coin, no one became a ruler in middle ages Europe using respect.

Not trying to but in but you aren't going to condemn a looted sword to a life of pain and hard labor by picking it up from the battlefield.

How would a commoner (who has no political power) and a no-name orphan at that, just con his way into power in a heavily stratified society? Why do you also appear to assume he would never have to get his hands dirty in the process? Could you grasp harder for a straw?

I'm failing to see your point here. Why does it matter what Griffith's motivation was? He fought in the war for selfish reasons, but he ended the war nonetheless. He never killed anyone except enemy soldiers who were also naturally trying to kill him. He may have taken expensive armor and weapons from dead enemies but they were not slaves and they no longer had any owners. There's nothing evil about his actions as a mercenary

Not all coups require(d) coin and bloodshed.
Also, the respect of the people would give him power and would have made him get noticed at the court.

The point was about whether looting was theft or not. The guy said that because it was seen as normal in those times that it should be seen normal now.
I called that an fallacious argument, because the same could then be said about slavery.

Name one single time in the middle ages were a ruler allowed himself to be overthrown by a peaceful and broke mob.

>The guy said that because it was seen as normal in those times that it should be seen normal now.
But that's not what I said
>because the same could then be said about slavery.
But objects and people are completely different

By using his charisma.
You know that he's able to get everybody behind him (no pun intended) he desired to.
This is what gave him his power and he could have used it in Midland to gain the support of the people first. Hell, this guy could probably cause a massive revolt against the king if he had put his mind to it. So, that's how.
>Why do you also appear to assume he would never have to get his hands dirty in the process?
We were arguing whether or not he could have achieved his goal without becoming a mercenary and the answer is yes, period.
Your assumptions are therefore irrelevant.

Then what did you say user?

True if that what was said, but I'm to lazy to scroll up to check so I won't pretned I'm invested in this.

Real question is what is his true dream?

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>Not all coups require(d) coin and bloodshed.
Yet they were generally achieved by people with money, power, or the willingness to resort to bloodshed. There weren't a lot of options for common folk back then. Griffith pursuing the martial path to achieve his aims was legit. You'd have to stop being a moralizing brainlet with no understanding of the context though.

I said that it was considered normal at the time. Soldiers didn't carry name plates and nobody was going to carry their armor to their wives across the kingdom or something. Picking up a sword that has no owner doesn't hurt anyone, enslaving some random person does

Due you asked me about the evil deeds he committed and i showed the deeds that were evil by definition.
Remember that there's also a side receiving all the blows he dealt and those acts were definitely evil to them.
People with families who got murdered by Griffith, because they were fighting in the army for personal reasons like feeding their families.
It goes both ways and from this neutral position we can call the actions of Griffith which were driven by self desires and nothing noble like providing for a family, evil.

Charisma didn't win Griffith any battles, nor did it pay for his army while he was taking it in the rear from an old guy. Any sweet talking he did would of failed as soon as he wasn't able to back up his promises.

Do you think the court of the Holy Roman Empire was just people sweet talking each other into power, and not I don't know....deals made for coin and land that you couldn't just talk yourself into getting?

>Allowed
Where did i imply that they would allow it?

>By using his charisma.
Yeah, charisma alone will just do everything, huh?
>answer is yes, period
That's just your baseless assumption. You have to try harder than your terrible fanfiction.

Salves were considered objects in those times, dude

To start with? No. But he crossed the line betraying his friends for power. A good man would have remained a cripple. I can understand his choice, but not condone it.

You didn't show any evil deeds though. Fighting in a war against the aggressor isn't evil. He was trying to end the war, even if it was just to become king

What does it matter? The fact still remains that if you pick up a sword that has no owner you aren't hurting anyone. You would be insane not to pick it up if you are at war. If you enslave someone then you are hurting someone

So you mean to tell me it was implied that a broke peaceful mob was going to force a ruler to step down by sending a strongly worded- oh wait, forgot that they couldn't read/write user.

So they were just going to yell at the rule from the base of his castle. great idea and I'm sure this has happened alot before in history so we know this is how it plays out.

Yes, money or power or the desire for change.
Griffith could invoke the latter and gained the first by having his cultfollowing in Midland instead of in the woods.
>There weren't a lot of options for common folk back then.
It should be pretty obvious that Griffith wasn't our typical commoner back then. Even without having a formal education he was able to outsmart those who had. This was all we knew of Griffith, that he had the ability to let everything go how he wanted.
>Griffith pursuing the martial path to achieve his aims was legit.
He did far more than what was legal to achieve his goal, kiddo.

Theft is the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent. If it applies to looting then looting is theft.
Some soldiers would have their weapons and armor to be inherited by their children after their death. Looting prevents that the possessions come into the hands of the children. It is theft. Also, just because someone's probably not going to pick something, doesn't mean that you'd automatically have the right to take it.

>enslaving some random person does
As you said, different times.
They didn't view it like this in those days and thus you have proven my position.
We should look at it from we view it today and not by how they viewed it back then (or at the very least, it's what you're doing despite saying earlier that we shouldn't).
Concession accepted.

Outsmart those on the battlefield and in court later when he mattered? It's almost as if he knew yelling at people to start a coup wasn't going to get himself anywhere.

Sorry user but you have to admit it, your fantasy of someone talking their way into power isn't at all realistic and would of made for a shit tier self insert manga.

Holy fucking shit you have either autism or schizophrenia or just can't read. Try reading that again slowly. I'm done

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>Charisma didn't win Griffith any battles
I never claimed that. I said that it gave him his cultfollowing. A cultfollwing that he would have also needed if he was going to gain power by other means than being a mercenary.
>nor did it pay for his army while he was taking it in the rear from an old guy
Wait what? His charisma was exactly why the old guy wanted to rear him and give him his full support in battle.
> Any sweet talking he did would of failed as soon as he wasn't able to back up his promises.
As with most conmen, but that doesn't mean that they never succeed.

>Do you think the court of the Holy Roman Empire was just people sweet talking each other into power
Have i claimed so? No. Neither have implied it. So, why are you strawmanning? I was talking about exceptions, not rules and that should have been pretty obvious.

It gave him the band of the Hawk, guy.
>That's just your baseless assumption.
Your baseless assumption is that there is no conceivable way that he couldn't or is this not so?

>You didn't show any evil deeds though
I showed individual deeds that by definition can be deemed evil, the intent or purpose of those deeds are irrelevant.
I know that you're adhering to the Machiavellian school of thought in which the end justifies the means as long as the means don't become the end, but a mean that is justified can still be evil.

> If you enslave someone then you are hurting someone
Not when you don't consider them people as was normal at that time.

Lol that comic never gets old I laugh every time I see it.

You mean like Louis XVI of France?
Yeah, that would never happen...

>Avatarfaggotry
Opinion disgarded

>Sorry user but you have to admit it, your fantasy of someone talking their way into power isn't at all realistic
What are cults and religions in general?

Someone who takes advantage of other people to propel his own agenda at the misery of others? Yeah its pretty evil.

>it gave him his cult following

He won every single battle they went into, not saying his charm didn't help but charm alone wouldn't of instilled faith like results do

>His charisma was exactly why the old guy wanted to rear him

While in this case true, Griffith would of never of gotten in that positon without prior battles won

>as with most conmen

Griffith wasn't a conman, he did exactly what he said he would,

>Why are you strawmanning?

It's hard not to look for what you must be implying when the premise here is pretty far fetched.

That was the result of a weak nation being run with bad choices, not someone talking the people into overthrowing a ruler using no money or force.

Cults and religion are run by entire organizations and are backed up by coin and armies (when talking about the scale of the catholic church back in the day). And even then their say wasn't absolute.

Miura likes to draw him being all cool and imposing but have you realized he's just a role-playing chuuni faggot? While the other gods are chilling in the astrals planes and shit, he's bored out of his mind styling on trolls by mounting his horse on top of a dragon. Everything he does is just to look cool and impress people but he's pretty much playing a MMORPG feeling no emotions. It's kind of lame but that's his dream.

>He won every single battle they went into
With cult-following i meant the initial members of the band of the Hawk.
You know, Islam had the same thing. Muhammed gained followers, because of he was able to con people into his religion/cause, but he really started to get a following after he was deemed unbeatable, which h was, until the Mongols.

>Griffith would of never of gotten in that positon without prior battles won
Not sure if he would have gotten into that position if he was uncharismatic/butt ugly either

>Griffith wasn't a conman, he did exactly what he said he would,
Irrelevant, you claimed that Griffith wouldn't be able to succeed with words alone and by mentioning conmen i showed that to clearly not be the case. You can get very far with words alone.

>It's hard not to look for what you must be implying
Using loaded questions is always a fallacy

>That was the result of a weak nation being run with bad choices
You wanted an example and i showed one in which the masses were riled up against the ruling class.
Whether or not the king deserved it is irrelevant. A charismatic person could always convince people of something that isn't real.

>Cults and religion are run by entire organizations and are backed up by coin and armies (when talking about the scale of the catholic church back in the day)
Organized and state religions, yes
Cults and minor religions not.
The smaller ones have the potential to become as big as the Catholic church, but they still start small. Islam is a great example of that.
Griffith could have used this approach and a mob of followers of a cult who aren't scared to die because they believe that they will be granted eternal life in heaven can be more frightening than the few soldiers left in the castle to defend Midland while the majority was out on the battlefield.
It all depends on how well you play the cards you were handed

You know user, that makes alot of sense truth be told. I never stopped to think about Islam's rise.

I know when to concede, you make the better case here.

Concession accepted

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