"Let's kill 1500 people to save 1501"

>Then why did you start a fateshit thread
whats your basis that he is OP?

>t. edgy underaged chunnis that have never had to make a hard decision in their lives
KEK

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Isn't his mentality normal for a rogue soldier? Personnel under an organization often receive mental coach, however this dude is just a solo terrorist

If only Shirou had gotten the memo

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>he doesn't conquer both sides with sheer charisma/tactics without spilling a single drop of blood
Pathetic.

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>The Graal shows him that his way of doing things is completely retarded and he ends up agreeing.

Except that's not what happened. The Grail was corrupted so it was always going to cause as much damage as possible AND it can't grant wishes the user itself can't comprehend and Kiritsugu doesn't understand JUSTICE outside of raw stats.

Fate/Zero ending is just an explanation that greedy strategy doesn't always work. DP is always the correct answer.
Where my CSE bros at?

>Don't Pull the Lever: The Anime

this, the entire point of the story is that Kiritsugu is a fucking retard

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You're comparing analogy to an analogy. The 1500 and 1501 is an example taken to the extreme, if you're going to compare it with your analogy, yours should be taken to the extreme too.
Also, It's not like Kiritsugu would choose his answer based on quantity alone, he would consider other factor beside making his decision.

Kirei was right.

When you have a gun, every problem is a target.

He was a good dad (to Shirou) but didn't know just how fucked up he was mentally and thought his talk about being a hero was just a harmless dream a child would have. Kiritsugu is ultimately a normal person who pushes himself to do inhumane things, while Shirou is fundamentally broken inside. If it wasn't heroism Shirou would be obsessed with something or become an empty husk like Kirei

>If it wasn't heroism Shirou would be obsessed with something or become an empty husk like Kirei
So essentially Yea Forums?

It would be too extreme to show kerry judging wether or not some people had more of a right to live than others based on the good deeds they could do in the future.

If user was presented with the same choice they would first ask "which boat has more niggers"? before blowing it up.

Do remember that Kiritsugu's "mage training" could also have killed Shirou if Rin didn't step in, which also lowers his "good dad" points, I'd say.

The only thing Kiritsugu did wrong was not killing the Einzberns

Literally what is wrong with that?

I'm not sure he could have even if he wanted to. He didn't know how to find them. Unless you're just saying he should have gone on a rampage right before leaving for Fuyuki anyway

I meant he should have killed them in the first place, magi are bad for the world.

>"Let's kill 1501 people to save 1500"

How the fuck they convinced him that the grail could grant the wish they want is the part that I have a hard time grasping. What sort of adult human thinks you could just wish all conflict away without killing everyone?

>Kiritsugu's "mage training"
lol what? He didn't give Shirou any real training that was the whole point. Not that shirou could learn anything much specific from him anyway since he wasn't an Emiya and Kiri also never did classic magus stuff, but then he died anyway. Shirou after that simply kept doing it himself the wrong way, and so wrong it right back around to working.

>could also have killed Shirou
Doubtful while Shirou had avalon inside him, though maybe he could have brain fried.

>What sort of adult human thinks you could just wish all conflict away without killing everyone?
A complete manchild. His using "boku" is not coincidental.

No, he has the most estoick view of the world, maths are the laws of the universe and shall be respected.

Why not? If you give everyone what they want there is no need to fight for resources.

Avalon doesn't work long after Saber's gone. He gets killed plenty of times even with avalon.

>Saves 1000 by killing 500
>Those 1000 uses up resources and wrecks the earth twice as fast
>Results in deaths later on anyways

The problem is that not everyone will be satisfied with what they got and there will always exist THAT dude that wants everything and more.

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if the non-tainted HG could do that. It obviously doesn't work if Angra is in charge, though.

I'm referring to the whole "Only teach Shirou how to create a new circuit" thing with the "Mage training", which is what could have killed Shirou, since you aren't supposed to do that every damn time. If memory serves, he only taught him that since he didn't want Shirou to become a magus, but he clearly should have taught him a bit more...

An adult human who can literally alter the flow of time by creating a synthetic micro universe inside themselves? I mean shit user, if I knew literally for a fact that for-real magic was a thing, and that the Root and ultimate control over a world even was a thing, then that would definitely alter what I'd consider sensible.

IRL no we can't wish away all conflict, but with god power it's not inconceivable to imagine things like "No human can ever again kill or permanently harm another human" and then have that stick. Maybe there would still be "conflict", people could still be stuck in prison or physically carried off and then a wall built around valuable areas or something, but if the very laws of the universe were changed so that it was literally impossible for humans to kill each other (like, you pull a gun and aim it at someone and shoot and the bullet just stops a millimeter from their skin no matter what), well that'd sure change the face of the world.

First world people lives better than kings of the old days. Are they happy?

>I'm referring to the whole "Only teach Shirou how to create a new circuit" thing with the "Mage training", which is what could have killed Shirou, since you aren't supposed to do that every damn time. If memory serves, he only taught him that since he didn't want Shirou to become a magus, but he clearly should have taught him a bit more...
Yeah but then he died. At that point he was already fading hard and into despair to a large extent anyway. Sorry user just can't hold it against him that Shirou got totally the wrong idea and then autistically pursued it against all agony and everything.

Then again if Shirou hadn't done so (and if Kiri hadn't gotten the ball rolling there) the 5th war would still have happened except it's quite possible everyone would have died that time. So it still worked out.

>If you give everyone what they want
What about people like Best Priest who literally do want the suffering and death of other people? What about people who just plain want EVERYTHING?

That makes no sense user, you can't eliminate conflict like that. You could though stop people from hurting each other.

Yes, a lot of them are, especially people who are not poor.

Well, yeah, you theoretically can't hold it against Kiritsugu. Though I still think that he could have said "Only do this the first time", and "Do this from then onwards.". It still wouldn't have been all that much, but it would have been enough to prevent Shirou's autism from almost getting him killed. (Though then again, maybe this whole "Shirou could have died from Kiritsugu's faulty training" is just a part of "Everything goes wrong when it comes to Kiritsugu and loved ones", it's like a curse.)

>Kiritsugu
>Not a retard

It is fundamentally impossible for there to be life without conflict, all the way to the cellular level. Unless everyone is basically a zombie where they think the same, act the same, and there is never competition for resources, conflict will always exist.

I have a better question; Who keeps fucking up the boats?

Jews

that was the whole point of zero

So why not give them infinite resources and make them have the same values?

I figure Kiri was sort of going for a NGNL Zero scenario, where it actually was pretty cool. The world was changed and a god was created such that all war/killing/theft and such was forbidden, and people resolved things with intellect instead, but even that could be fairly optional. Granted, there could still be conflict on some level but compared to wars everywhere, even world wars, it worked out bretty gud. I'd think he'd have been satisfied with that even if he didn't have the imagination or purity for it.

Of course a big part of NGNL0's scenario was precisely that they did it WITHOUT killing anyone, purposefully as part of the magic of it. That spirit and belief in the game was part of what made God work, and lowered the power of the god of war too. When your plan is based on a phenomenon where intention/belief influences reality, better get those parts right too.

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The same manchilds who think magic exists.

>make them have the same values
Blatant brainwashing? What's the point then? Just have everyone's brain release dopamine forever with no diminishing returns.

> Kill everyone
> Therefore no one can be killed!

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who do you think

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In summary: Kiri needed to be a magical girl for things to work out. Then he could have changed MapoPriest through FRIENDSHIP and gotten all the enemies to compromise and join the same side, heroic spirits inspired and heroic, then cleansed the grail of the curses through LOVE AND PEACE.

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Even if you do end up erasing conflict, you'll just end up with Texhnolyze's world.

Go to sleep, Angra

No, even mages don't have to despair!

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To be fair he was fighting for what he thought was an omnipotent wish granting device. It's a lot easier to justify utilitarianism when you're fighting for something that seems like it can solve all problems everywhere, forever. It's not like he could've know the grail was literally the most evil thing on the planet.

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Even if the grail wasn't corrupted by manjew, there are still a lot of things that could've gone wrong. A bigger red flag was that the Grail ritual had never actually been completed, why Kerry would place all his bets on a supposed wish granting device that has never granted any wishes is beyond me.

Even if the grail wasn't corrupt it wouldn't be able to do what he wanted, it just wouldn't kill everyone. "Conflict-less utopia" is such a vague term that there are thousands of ways you could go about it, and most of them aren't ideal even if they succeed.

Yeah, particularly since it had only been corrupted in the previous 3rd war, if Kiri had been around for the 1st or 2nd shit he might have pulled it off.

Then again maybe not, one theme in some of this stuff is that it doesn't tend to go well to try to simultaneously use super magic but also "real world" utilitarianism. The whole point is to do something that isn't stuck by the normal rules, but that can mean the normal rules can't be used to get it either. If the grail is filled with suffering and death can it actually then be used for a wish for something the opposite? I guess the Honorable Warrior aspect of the fight was one way around that in the 1st/2nd war, where all the Heroic Spirits were restricted to be good, and if everyone agreed up that they would die honorably then none of them would carry a grudge about it, the best wins isn't self-inconsistent. Still though if the mages were huge dicks and denied that (like Kiri did with lancer) they might still fuck it up.

To me it seems self evident the reason the ritual was never completed was because a battle royale isn't exactly the most stable way to choose a victor, but yeah you're right. Obviously Kiritsugu was desperate and wanted to believe this was his way out because he saw no other options. I guess in a world where magic already exists and does crazy shit if all leading authorities on magic in the world say something is true (like the grail granting wishes) it's not too big of a stretch to take their word for it.

Because he didn't have any realistic options to fulfill his goals? Kiritsugu knew he would break eventually so he tried to make his dream come true while he was still able to.

It probably doesn't help that at least one of the Big 3 involved tries to cheat the system every damn time (When will the Einzberns learn that their "tricks" never end well?)

>A bigger red flag was that the Grail ritual had never actually been completed
People had reached the Root before though, and the very existence of the grail and grail war period showed that some subset of the Third Magic was a real thing. The Einzburns did possess it at one point. Kiri also had a direct connection to his father trying to work on something like the 4th, he didn't care but this wouldn't have been odd to him it's what all mages were after.

I mean shit user, no one has successfully completed a commercial scale thermonuclear fusion power plant either, but it's not like we doubt the physics. We know the basic concept works, and all evidence and modeling indicates there are multiple likely paths. It's just really hard and capital intensive.

He was after the grail precisely because his ideal world was so vague. He says this in episode 25 I think, his reason for choosing the grail was because it could create his utopia in a way no human ever could. Assuming that it was an omnipotent wish granter then it could carve a path to that ideal world that a human could never even comprehend.

>Because he didn't have any realistic options to fulfill his goals
And that's the entire theme of his immaturity. He never learns to let things go like an adult, not until he saves Shirou.

>When will the Einzberns learn that their "tricks" never end well?
Never, the old man there also went crazy a long time ago. They just wanted to see it done and see what happened no matter what at that point. Zouken also lost it and forgot his exact motivation and purpose in the first place when it all began, ground down by the centuries. The Tohsakas actually stayed the most stable and I don't think they ever tried to cheat or hack it, rather they were the youngest and weakest bloodline family, but then built up steadily through the generations as focused magi. They just couldn't compete at the start on sheer skill/power/mystery, but they had the most growth and biggest chances long term in a fair fight.

The argument of "he was immature and needed to let things go" is a lot harder to make in a world where magic literally exists. Growing up means compromise with society, but if there are literal superpowers and things that can grant wishes then compromise isn't really necessary. There would've been no need to "grow up" if the grail granted his wish like he wanted it to.

I think he lets things go because he can't do anything anymore not because he abandoned his beliefs.

>He was after the grail precisely because his ideal world was so vague. He says this in episode 25 I think, his reason for choosing the grail was because it could create his utopia in a way no human ever could. Assuming that it was an omnipotent wish granter then it could carve a path to that ideal world that a human could never even comprehend.
Yeah, it's a big risk but I think that's actually a pretty fair thing. A lot of people have speculated IRL that the best/worst thing for humanity would be a strong super human intelligence emerging: best thing if it was benevolent, worst thing if it was hostile. In the latter case obviously that'd be eternal hell. But in the former it'd be a for real god to us, able to guide things in ways beyond our comprehension too.
>"If there are no gods it's be necessary to create them"
and all that, there is a real argument there that humanity just has a point with technology and personal power and growth that our minds simply can't handle it any longer. It's not illogical to then want to create a mind that CAN handle it for us. Of course the terrifying bit is if it goes bad, but an omnipotent wish device that responds to intentions would be a nice shortcut.

And he had no idea how the grail even works. What if it just takes away free will to eliminate conflict? Doing this is going to reveal the existence of magic, how is the world going to respond to that? Even if it stops "conflict", can people still fuck with each other in other ways like financially? There's a billion questions he should have been asking.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have tried, but he wouldn't have been so broken if he had realistic expectations of it not working.

>I don't think they ever tried to cheat or hack it
You don't think Tokiomi conspiring with the supposedly impartial mediator and his son who happened to be a fellow Master counts as cheating?

You are probably right on that "never learn" part. It's sort of funny that as far I remember, Einzberns also always have their hands buried into all HGWs even when they aren't directly participating.

He works for NASA, they never let you think and come up with other options.
It's always kill them to save others, only extremes.

It's more like he realized the value of a single life and abandoned his pure utilitarianism way of action.

>He never learns to let things go like an adult
And yet IRL some of our greatest leaps forwards as a species have been from people who refused to let things go and compromise but pushed on anyway. Yes, 99% of those attempts fail miserably, but the last 1% can change the world. A current example is Elon Musk, people get mad at him because of his crazy and autism, but I think those are inseparable from his success too they can't be split up: you HAVE to be crazy and willing to ignore a lot of common sense to even try for shit like that. And there is no guarantee of success at all by definition. And if it goes well then in later stages those same impulses can become actively harmful to stabilizing that progress. But luckily some people are like that anyway.

Nasuverse magic is very limited to what it can do, the problem with his wish is that it's self-defeating even if your God. If you take a look at everyone else's wish, theirs are at least tangible (save for Zouken's original).

>You don't think Tokiomi conspiring with the supposedly impartial mediator and his son who happened to be a fellow Master counts as cheating?
Sorry, I meant "cheat the system" itself. The Einzburns and Zouken both dicked around with the core foundations to utterly ruinous results. Yes Tokiomi tried to win via an alliance (though to win that he had to convince a magi-hating organization that he was in fact the least bad one there), but I can't really put that in the same bucket as corrupting the system via a loophole to summon All The Evil Of The World or making the whole parallel dark Grail or whatever. If the Einzberns had tried to just make someone strong and then pay off one of the other participants during the 3rd I would have counted that as pretty tame by magus standards too.

What's wrong with this idea? You save 1 more life

If he had the slightest expectation of it not working he would've fucked off with his family altogether

What if that one guy is a huge asshole

I meant let go of failure, not give up entirely before even trying. This is the difference the stories show between Kiritsugu and Shirou. The latter knows he'll never make it but accepts that, the former needs to get to the end go or he'll break.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism#Criticisms

>Nasuverse magic is very limited to what it can do
No, magecraft is. But True Magic is by definition an actual miracle completely unrestricted by anything science or magecraft could do with any amount of time or effort. There is nothing "very limited" about them, and if someone really did get direct access to the root they could change everything.

>the problem with his wish is that it's self-defeating even if your God
It wasn't though, precisely because it was fairly vague and he was leaving it to God to figure out the details. Taking again the NGNL0 setting where this actually happened and worked, I don't think Kiri would have been upset with that result (particularly if it was mainly just human nations rather then many super beings and humans can use some magic too).

Have to hand it to them, the whole "Hire an anti-magus assassin as your Master" plan was sort of genious. Too bad it ended just like the other Einzbern "plans".

>I meant let go of failure, not give up entirely before even trying.
I don't understand what you're arguing then. How could he have "failed" until he actually went through the whole grail war and either lost and was killed or successfully made it to the grail?

>The latter knows he'll never make it but accepts that
In UBW. Not in Fate (and whatever AU it was that led him to becoming EMIYA).

The Einzberns are cursed, it's always going to end poorly for them

They are getting what they deserve for the whole debacle with Angra Mainyu

You should let the side with 1500 people win because they deserve to win for being better.

>the whole "Hire an anti-magus assassin as your Master" plan was sort of genious
It was probably the most sensible thing they ever did.

>Too bad it ended just like the other Einzbern "plans".
Nah user, it actually worked. It was a good plan. The problem was that their PREVIOUS plan was so fucking bad that it CONTINUED to fuck them forever more afterwards. If they had done their strategy for the 4th war during the 3rd war none of the shit would have happened (of course the metaproblem there is that would have changed the whole setting forever so commercially not so viable).

You are part of the 1500, thanks for your sacrifice, byebye.

Raw unit counts is weak sauce criticism of utilitarianism. You can find some "measure" that takes into account lots of variables about quality of life years remaining and resources invested and how tough they are and how hard they work and how smart and on and on, and still end up with a number on each side where one number is bigger then the other number.

Well, yes, the plan worked until the "hired assassin destroys the grail due to your previous plan" bit, yeah. Though honestly... I'm not so sure the plan would've necessarily worked better without Angra. I mean, they didn't do it in the Apocrypha timeline, but their plan that time ended screwing them over anyway.

>You are part of the 1500, thanks for your sacrifice, byebye.
And you are part of the 1501 so thanks for your sacrifice, byebye? Now what genius.

Yes but even then there's no way to determine how much value each variable has over the other. What you said really just determines how long they'll last and how much labor they'll produce. How do you decide what makes a life more valuable than another?

Not happening since you reject any other solution so it will always be the 1500 side that gets sacrificed, byebye now.

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Why did they summon Saber instead of Assassin? Caster and Archer could've been good fits for Kerry's style as well.

Eh once we start talking AU it gets into stuff like the Anthropic principle though user. I mean, we're only seeing a tiny subset of AUs, and the ones that are interesting stories. Maybe there is one where the Einzberns just win the 1st war right off and get back the HF and welp that's the end of that. We can't evaluate a plan based on AUs, just its own merits, and their 4th War plan was perfectly good. Their weakness had been their own skills weren't direct combat oriented, and a servant alone couldn't make up for that. So they just found a pro who was also very motivated, they got him one of the most powerful heroes possible, and left it to him. Nothing complex about it, and even if it went wrong the "only" thing that would happen would be another loss, whereas the failure scenario from the previous plan was "everything is fucked forever" which is what happened.

I haven't watched the NGNL movie, can't really comment on specifics, but NGNL isekai world felt far removed from ours. Like, if that was our world, what happens to all the grudges built up all these years? Are religious conflicts just going to evaporate? Are people willing to accept political policies based on who wins a game? You can bet on people looking to abuse the system in any way possible. There aren't much physical violence in first world countries, the rich are still fucking over people below them.

Not saying you can't reduce suffering with the grail, something like creating clean drinking water will go a long way. But eliminating conflict altogether while not fixing the human condition in the slightest is just going to be the same thing with a shiny coat of paint.

True, true. Though they did try the "servant alone making up for the lack of combat oriented skills" in the 5th war, at least.

What if, hypothetically, each one of those 1500 on the hit list had a 50% chance to kill 1 person every year, with the chances of killing again decreasing by half(rounded down) each year? Would the death count ever surpass 1501? You should be able to solve this

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The Knight classes are the strongest by design, Assassin, Caster, and Berserker are meant to be shit. The 3 families that designed the HWG get the Knight classes or Rider if somthing goes wrong. It's a rigged game.
Also, if you have Avalon, you use it to summon King Arthur, strategy be damn if you can Excalibur everything

>How do you decide what makes a life more valuable than another?
I don't understand user? I'd decide based on my own moral principles and what I believe is best long term. The decision I'd come to might well be different from what you'd come to, but that doesn't change anything, whichever of us wields the power would then make the choice. To the extent that we'd fight to be the one to make the choice (or not) is part of what life is all about.

>Why did they summon Saber instead of Assassin?
Pure raw upfront power, incredible survivability, high versatility, and probably figured that the assassination angle was handled just fine by Kerry and his pet soldier follower. Saber also served to take the spotlight by her nature, and Iri was there too, so attention was deflected from who the true master was.

I mean yeah I'm sure Kerry could have worked on something with a caster or anyone really but "let's have the servant handle things the master can't" is logical. And he did win.

Their only problem was summoning a Lawful Good Saber, really. Someone like Mordred could have been more Kiritsugu's style (though still not necessarily most ideal, but better than Artoria)

We never got enough of her. Also, Kiritsugu did nothing wrong.

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Yo Kiritsugu is so mature, he wears black cloths and smoke and use gun so badass, he also eat burger with the taste of murder I want to be like anime, why is he so fucking badass

>To the extent that we'd fight to be the one to make the choice (or not) is part of what life is all about.
You asked what was wrong with Kiritsugu's choice, and I told you. It's impossible to quantify value in any objective sense. If your argument is that you can subjectively quantify value, and whoever wields the most power can enforce his subjective measurements of value on the world, that's true but isn't an argument for why utilitarianism is correct. It's a might makes right argument. If I'm the strongest, what's wrong with me choosing that no humans have value and should all die?

You're not supposed to agree with him.

We can all agree he was in the right to shoot down the plane though right?

you just criticized utilitarianism lol

>but NGNL isekai world felt far removed from ours
If you haven't watched the movie (and it's worth a watch, they did a great job with it honestly) then yeah this won't make sense. The world of the TV series is a long, long time after it has been totally rebuilt, you are in fact seeing a sort of utopia. But there was massive horrendous death and suffering leading up to that, world war with multiple literally magic WMDs deployed and most of the planet wiped out.

>Like, if that was our world, what happens to all the grudges built up all these years? Are religious conflicts just going to evaporate?
They did mostly "evaporate" as in they were turned to plasma by magic nukes.

>Are people willing to accept political policies based on who wins a game?
You get no choice, that's the point. God literally makes it so, because a God was created by a persons wish who wanted an end to all the fighting.

>You can bet on people looking to abuse the system in any way possible.
But it's not possible. God really is smarter then people and really does exert direct control.

I mean we're getting into something that obviously is not real, but thinking of it in-universe terms is still possible. Think of it like if we were all uploaded into an MMO that was written via formal verified programming so perfectly bug free, and as regular players. And then an admin made the entire world a Safe Zone. So just nobody could be killed by another human. Yes people still suffer in other ways, but it does eliminate violent conflict.

As an earlier user said, Avalon is so fucking OP that if you've got access to it probably more sensible to build a plan around it then anything else.

To be honest, I wonder if anyone knew anything else about King Arthur than "He is probably really good" before the summoning. Which is probably why Einzberns wanted this specific Servant in the first place.

>let the Einzberns experiment on Illya before and after she was born
>Killing Kayneth and Sola was complete overkill and unnecessary at that stage of the war
>cheated on his wife

Not killing Shirley was a mistake but I can’t blame him for that

>If your argument is that you can subjectively quantify value, and whoever wields the most power can enforce his subjective measurements of value on the world, that's true but isn't an argument for why utilitarianism is correct.
I actually think it is. Having the power still leaves infinite room to decide how to wield it, and utilitarianism is one way to make a decision about what to do. There are other strategies besides utilitarianism you could decide were better, but you HAVE to choose something. Even choosing "I'm not going to wield it and will leave it to others" is still a choice. Utilitarianism as a personal philosophy is self-consistent with subjective systematic valuation if it means always choosing the option that the system shows as having higher value, regardless of the value system itself.

Think of it like Rule of Law user: law is all 100% perfectly subjective and can be modified over time, but there is a real world difference between a society that agrees to be bound by that and follows the system and one that is just random whim.

it may look simple on paper but the world is a way more complicated for it to be applicable on large scale

At least in Fateverse everyone knows of King Arthur, one of the greatest legends of all. In fact that's explicitly called out as a weakness too: no secrecy. With other servants you can see them fight and see their weapons and not know who they really are and in turn what the full extent of their powers and legend is. Arthuria and Excalibur is so well known though that the slightest glimpse and everyone knows instantly, hence invisible air. The full power of Avalon does seem to be less well known but it's part of the legend too.

Basically if there is any balance to King Arthur, it's that the whole honor fight thing is self-fulfilling, that's one servant that can't ever really be under cover or a surprise card through a full war. Have to just win through force of arms (unless the master does something sneaky of course).

It was more because they used the Das Rheingold to make the grail

Personally I actually agree with your logic though I think this kind of thinking is irrelevant in discussions about morality because it can be used to justify anything. Anything someone decides to do with power is "correct" under your logic, is it not? You're making a case for egoism right now, not utilitarianism.

You got me on the whole Invisible Air bit, I admit. Though it sort of goes into the "really good" bit, in the end.

>Dad: Is there a way to purify humanity
>Wish machine: I can destroy humanity if thats all you wanted
>Dad: No way fag

>So just nobody could be killed by another human. Yes people still suffer in other ways, but it does eliminate violent conflict.
I mean, that's what I'm arguing. Eliminating violent conflict itself is easy, just make everyone invulnerable except to natural causes. It's what happens after that you have to worry about.
I never said a utopia can't exist ever, just that you can't snap your finger and make it happen. Sounds to me like NGNL universe did their share of toiling and sacrifices to build themselves up to that point, so it wasn't just the magical mechanics that made it happen.
>Think of it like if we were all uploaded into an MMO that was written via formal verified programming so perfectly bug free, and as regular players. And then an admin made the entire world a Safe Zone.
But this CAN be real. You can install cameras in every nook and cranny, have everyone wear shock collars to control them from violent crime, and have advance AI or something to monitor everyone at once to make sure no one does anything wrong. That gets the same effect but doesn't sound ideal at all.

>Grail turns the whole world into China
That would be one hell of a ride

>Anything someone decides to do with power is "correct" under your logic, is it not?
No, not if it's something I disagree with of course. Precisely because morality is subjective, I get to decide if I think someone's choice is right or not.

But I do think a more complex form of utilitarianism isn't the worst way someone in charge could wield power too, so long as they really were being systematic about it and were trying to avoid coming into situations where it was necessary. I mean, again think of rule of law, sometimes "following the rules" results in outcomes we consider bad in the short term. But there is real value long term in consistency and orderly thinking and self-restraints around wielding power vs just doing whatever pops to mind. It's more possible to step back from, evaluate the results of, and optimize. I never called it the best, I just think that it's weaksauce counter argument to over simplify "the greatest human benefit".

>No, not if it's something I disagree with of course.
Okay yeah so egoism then.

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>That gets the same effect
It doesn't though, that's the problem with panopticons. It's inevitable they're abused, they do far more then just control physics because of course they can't just control physics. Tons of extra information is being gathered. And they still can't actually prevent violence, they merely raise the likelihood of consequences (to 100% in the ideal). If someone is in fact willing to pay the price they can still be violent. I mean, suicide bombers by definition pay the death penalty right? They're still a threat.

In the MMO setting, you can still have perfect privacy. In fact the argument for that is enhanced, because even if you and someone else are alone on a desert island a thousand miles from anything with zero observation or interference possible, you still can't hurt each other. A lot of things we have as big fights (gun rights for example) totally change, in the direction of MORE freedom because now the consequences of misuse drop. Might still be a good idea to ban lead bullets because of the pollution, but everyone can carry around whatever they think is cool wherever they want and blaze away because no one can be hurt by it.

No user. You need to learn to separate yourself from arguments and evaluation better. It's not egoism to be able to recognize that every individual makes their own value judgements about what system to use for their decision trees, yet at the same time those systems have objectively different outcomes and results over time.

Alright, let's step way back. Initially you said you'd decide what makes certain lives more valuable than others based on your own moral principles. How do you decide those moral principles?

>How do you decide those moral principles?
An ongoing process over my whole life up to now. I personally have a set of entirely subjective axioms that are just things that are core to me, like the basic value of individual expression or total opposition to slavery. There isn't any "objective" around axioms, they just are foundations. Then I also have goals, both for myself and how I'd like to see humanity evolve into the future. Goals, like "I want to see humanity expand beyond Earth" are also subjective. Combine the two and then objective decisions and strategies can be drawn, at least to the best of my ability within the limits of my experience and intelligence. These are objective because IF you take the axioms (which set the boundaries on what methods are moral) and goals as a given, then there are many ways to reach the goal that will be more or less effective. There is plenty of room to compromise with others in this too, they may have goals that can be complimentary, or that are orthogonal, so we can find a strategy that will satisfy us both.

I mean, that's just how it is right? Everyone has to adopt something, more consciously or unconsciously or both. You can try though to look at someone else's axioms and goals and figure out to what degrees you align, and what is more important or less. Or for that matter you can look at some and quite clearly know "we will never agree".

Official Emiya philosophy tier list:

UBW Shirou > Shirou Childhood Kiritsugu > F/Z Kiritsugu = EMIYA > HF Shirou > Fate Shirou

>And they still can't actually prevent violence
Probably should have specified super-advanced shock collars that prevents any movement right before violence, but that's besides the point.
Look, the whole premise of your world rides on the fact that there's a higher being that doesn't do any of the abuse humans are prone to and knows exactly how to manage everything perfectly. Ask 10 people "how would you design this MMO" and you'll get 10 different answers. I can't begin imagining asking the grail "Is abortion okay? What's your tax policy? How do you deal with inequality? How are we resolving climate change?" If the answer is "just fix it with magic" what's the point of anything anymore? How is it different than, say, Madara's Moon eye plan which gives everyone a utopia?

disappointing emiya list user pls:
FKL Illya > UBW Shirou > HF Shirou = MiyuShirou > F/Z Kiritsugu = EMIYA > Fate Shirou = Childhood Shirou

>Look, the whole premise of your world rides on the fact that there's a higher being that doesn't do any of the abuse humans are prone to and knows exactly how to manage everything perfectly.
Yeah it does, because we're talking Grail or Singularity here. The context is "was Kerry reasonable to go for this, given that he really did have the potential to gain a Grail."

>Ask 10 people
Why would you possibly ask 10 random people? Of course they'll have no idea. That's why you don't, instead you yourself believe that your specific wish is the right path and then seek to make that real. Other people's opinions are by definition irrelevant, since that includes other people who want to kill/hurt people and the whole point is to deny them that.

>I can't begin imagining asking the grail "Is abortion okay? What's your tax policy? How do you deal with inequality? How are we resolving climate change?"
Well that's nice because that's not what's going on. All the things you describe are subjective axioms/goals, but Kerry (and Riku) had already figured out. What they wanted was a method to make their values/goals real. It's not "is this ok" it's "I wish for inequality to be eliminated in a way that matches all my values as best as possible" for example. Or shit the latter one really is trivial, "I wish for global CO2/CH4 levels to be instantly reduced back to 1800 levels and ideal plans for fusion reactors to pop into existence all over the world." Boom, grail could just do that one, no morality at all involved that's just mechanics.

Illya is not an Emiya for some ass backwards reason.

>Illya is not an Emiya for some ass backwards reason.
FKL Illya definitely is. In FSN she never sees Kiritsugu again and is completely indoctrinated and further massively modified by the Einzberns. She totally identifies as that. In FKL though she never even sees them or knows anything of her heritage growing up, she gets to grow up in a family setting and know her Dad and Mom and brother, seems fair to consider her an Emiya. Like, she even gets the Emiya harem powers, what more argument do you need then that!?

Does anyone else hate the fact that Kiritsugu was so normal and emotionally healthy as a child? It really waters down his character and what he's supposed to represent.

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>Does anyone else hate the fact that Kiritsugu was so normal and emotionally healthy as a child? It really waters down his character and what he's supposed to represent.
wut. always thought opposite, it was key to his character and what he represents.

Why isn’t her last name Emiya? Shirou in FKL is Emiya and he was adopted

>Yeah it does, because we're talking Grail or Singularity here. The context is "was Kerry reasonable to go for this, given that he really did have the potential to gain a Grail."
So his plan was "let's hope the God I'm about to unleash on reality doesn't do anything too fucked up?" When your end goal involves bending reality on a global scale, it's not something you should skip part 3 of planning. Yes, it's possible it may work out, but it was clear Kiritsugu threw all his eggs in one basket without a hint of a contingency. I swear to god, had Shirou's goal been to wish world peace, the community would have called him stupid even more than they already do.
>Or shit the latter one really is trivial, "I wish for global CO2/CH4 levels to be instantly reduced back to 1800 levels and ideal plans for fusion reactors to pop into existence all over the world."
So, one of the greatest threats to our existence just disappears without any effort or trouble? Yeah, that will go great in teaching humans value of action and consequences.

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Even if you didn't know who the 1500 were, are they family, friends, autistic, incels, niggers, racist, etc; does it matter when in the end you save more people saving 1501?

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That's literally the point though. He's a twat, anybody that isn't a edgelord or a blind "end justifies the means" fag would realize that.

Arguably. The problem is, there's no way to correctly measure human worth without massive biases.

>So his plan was "let's hope the God I'm about to unleash on reality doesn't do anything too fucked up?"
Pretty much, or at least "MORE fucked up then the world already is." I mean remember, this is a guy who as a child saw his Dad (and lots of other maguses since) zombify entire civilian populations who were then all massacred (and not because of any particular moral worry about it but to keep things covered up), and then spent much of the rest of his life in horrendous war zones of various sorts, often dealing with even worse monsters. Yeah Angry Manjew was even worse and something he rejected, he wasn't a nihilist "well everyone should just die then," but real world sure as fuck isn't all roses and Nasuverse world is arguably even worse.

>When your end goal involves bending reality on a global scale, it's not something you should skip part 3 of planning. Yes, it's possible it may work out, but it was clear Kiritsugu threw all his eggs in one basket without a hint of a contingency.
He was desperate. And that's realistic too, a lot of climate activists and antiwar types and such are all desperate also because millions of actual people really are being killed and hundreds of millions threatened. Most of us sort of shut that out, or we'd go nuts (or we're emotionally stunted). But if you really care and you know every passing day raises the corpse pile ever higher, and a miracle chance presents itself, that's worth fairly big risk for that kind of reward.

>So, one of the greatest threats to our existence just disappears without any effort or trouble?
Yes? "Teaching humans consequences" is cute and all user, but sounds less so when the real translation is "billions of children who had no choice and gained nothing from it will pay the price." Sacrificing moralizing for results and hoping future gens will realize another miracle is unlikely would be a trade I'd make in a fucking heartbeat.

>blind "end justifies the means" fag
Converse isn't true either though, it's retarded to say that "no ends ever justify any means" and sometimes people do have to be sacrificed.

I mean personal experience example here: I'm a certified First Responder and have begun studying for EMT-B. I've seen some nasty stuff, but one thing we received training for that I've luckily never had to deal with is a mass casualty situation. Normally you are supposed to prioritize each individual absolutely to the max humanly possible short of risking yourself (in part because if you become injured too now there's another victim for the next guy to worry about). But mass casualty is an exception, then you are trained in Triage. And they told us we had to be ruthless about it, black/red/yellow/green tagging. Triage is literally sacrificing the few for the many, but it's what has been decided as the least bad choice in a bad situation. What else would be better? Obviously ideally we'd prevent every single one and thus never face the situation in the first place, or we could bring unlimited resources to the scene fast enough to not need to choose. But to the extent we can't, triage is next.

I would say the converse is accurate. If your methods are good, then it doesn't matter what the end result is going to be. You can't make the world a worse place by doing good things.

Also, how is triage that a case of the ends justifying the means? Saving the people that can be saved over the people that almost certainly can't be saved isn't ruthless, it's sensible. It started in the crimean war in response to the massive death rates among wounded soldiers.

(continuing)
After they implemented it, those rates decreased significantly. It's not sacrificing the few for the sake of the many, it's saving those that can still be saved.

Isn't the point of True Magic that it cannot currently be achieved by any other method? Things such as instant long-distance communication would have been True Magic at one point until science caught up.

Keyword: a lot.

so was Iri a legit cuckquean? she knew he was having an affair of sorts and she didn't seem to care much

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>If your methods are good, then it doesn't matter what the end result is going to be. You can't make the world a worse place by doing good things.
"The road to hell is paved with good intensions" didn't come out of nowhere. You can absolutely make the world a worse place doing good things if it means allowing worse things.

>how is triage that a case of the ends justifying the means
How is it not? You're literally leaving some people that might have been saved to die to raise the likelihood of saving more. Normally you do whatever it takes for every single individual. Even if they're totally non-responsive you don't stop CPR and whatever else until you are physically incapable of more, you can pass it onto someone better trained or advanced services arrive and certify them dead and relieve you/direct you elsewhere. In an MCI though it's different, under S.T.A.R.T "deceased" can be merely non-breathing if a simple airway reposition doesn't immediately work. They're just left there. Also since humans aren't perfect, if you try to classify via triage there will almost certainly be some undertriage and some overtriage. In general we're supposed to bias towards overtriage, but you can't go too far there or it defeats the point.

I mean, it's an example of all these exact issues isn't it? You are making decisions about sacrificing some to save more, and you have to do with imperfect information by your own subjective judgement. More training and experience can improve things, but even that can't be counted on always. People just have to do the best they can, because doing nothing would be worst of all.

It was never confirmed if she knew. Not like she could do anything about it either since Kiritsugu was quite literally her entire world

>It's not sacrificing the few for the sake of the many, it's saving those that can still be saved.
Already gave a response, but more simply this just isn't so. Even a simple FR who does enough will see a decent number of non-breathing people resuscitated. Triage absolutely involves leaving some people to die who would have been saved because the probability is low and the same amount of resources spent on them could save more spent elsewhere. It also means that sometimes someone who is deemed minor or delayed priority dies because there was something more serious that was hidden whereas they would have been saved if they'd been given full attention right off.

>so was Iri a legit cuckquean
nah she was the only one who got a child out of it, no enemy chicks in the nest = winner

judging by how perverted she is with her maids in prism ilya I wouldn't even be surprised If she wanted to watch kiritsugu and maiya go at it just for entertainment

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>Isn't the point of True Magic that it cannot currently be achieved by any other method? Things such as instant long-distance communication would have been True Magic at one point until science caught up.
Technically yes, it's from the root, but science isn't catching up to violating mass energy conservation (denial of nothingness) or operation of parallel universes (kaleidoscope) or materialization of the soul (hf) or time travel/time control or whatever the fuck blue is (cold fusion? direct manipulation of the strong nuclear force?).

And that's just what has been brought back from the root and memory/use of it still exists, there is plenty more that has been lost. And there is the whole Reverse Side of the World from the age of the gods, which in nasuverse was an actual real thing. Magic can be powerful, even if in the modern age of the series much has long since faded away. Potential still exists though, the exact amount varying depending on setting. It might be nearly impossible to reach anymore, but if it could be Kerry's wish wouldn't be at all that big a deal.

You certainly wouldn't be wrong to say the risk was insane, or even to argue that it didn't justify the reward, but the reward was still real in that setting.

or she just shlicked over saber. fair trade, he got maiya she gets king of knights.

Prisma Ilya definitely shouldn't be used as a source of characterization for a version of a character in something else

the answer is to make everyone immortal

>"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" didn't come out of nowhere
The road to hell being paved with good intentions refers to a "ends justify the means situation". Again, and i'm sorry if I sound repetitive, you can't make the world a worse place by doing good things. Like, you can't turn a country into a murderous fascist dictatorship by being really nice and caring towards everybody.

>How is it not?
Because I don't see how the method is at fault here. Yes, you can make a mistake and let somebody die that would have otherwise been saved. But the method is still saving people using the most logical system we have available to us.

you literally don't get involved because it's not your business and they're free to live and die as they please.

fucking americans

>Technically yes, it's from the root, but science isn't catching up to violating mass energy conservation (denial of nothingness) or operation of parallel universes (kaleidoscope) or materialization of the soul (hf) or time travel/time control or whatever the fuck blue is (cold fusion? direct manipulation of the strong nuclear force?).
I don't know, I feel it's way too early to say those things aren't achievable via science, at least in the Nasuverse. True Magic is just impossible to reproduce in the current era, but with the death of Mystery it may be possible in the far future. It's outright stated (CM3) that many former Magics are already gone due to societal advancement. There's no obvious reason this couldn't happen to the rest.

>you will never mana transfer with the king of knights with your wife helping

why live

Regular Iri spent her entire life in the castle and was personally groomed by Kiritsugu into being his ideal human being, while Prisma Iri left the castle at a young age and spent a lot of time "working" with Kiritsugu overseas and as such became significantly more degenerate.

And then you get a trap, an idiot and his waifu stopping you too.

>Fucking a 10/10 mythological king who knows a wizard that can give her a dick.
>Fucking some random girl that is never mentioned again after she dies.

The country that was attacked is not exercising any freedom there. War is not typically consensual.

Fucking idiots.

I fire the WMD at a random point in the country. If anyone dies as a result of the random attack, that's just the price of justice. The survivors of the 3500 people will stop fighting after they see that god is watching.

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You're going to have to explain this one.

>10/10
>the barest hints of a figure that tells you she's female
>has crippling autism that not even quasi-death has fixed

>prisma kiri turned her into a slut who liked dominating other women

was he actually based despite being an autist?

>the barest hints of a figure that tells you she's female
She's stacked as hell underneath that armour.

>has crippling autism that not even quasi-death has fixed
She's both incredibly badass and capable yet still a massive sub. Literally the perfect woman.

> She's stacked as hell underneath that armour.
user...

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That is perfect size for actual human beings. Not anime cow tits monsters.

>Again, and i'm sorry if I sound repetitive, you can't make the world a worse place by doing good things.
No problem I don't think you're being repetitive, but you're not correct. There are endless examples of this user. I mean, just on the topic of triage, is it a bad thing to save a child? I mean, normally we would consider it a good thing right? So if you come on an MCI and there are a bunch of adults injured and also a 10 year old who is not breathing and you devote all your time to saving them, is the world a worse place if they live but everyone else dies? What if they don't live and everyone else dies? What if just some other people die who all could have been saved? What if one of the dead was an important researcher or was setting up a philanthropy that falls through and tons more people don't get help as a result? Etc etc.

Also for what it's worth be careful not to fall into a circular reasoning trap in terms of "good things." Not saying you are, just that it's easy to reverse cause and effect here.

>Because I don't see how the method is at fault here
There is no "fault", but neither is it the only solution. We could all agree instead to choose to prioritize the young over all else instead for example. But we choose to prioritize the end of "the many at the expense of the few". That's what we're talking about here. Triage is utilitarianism.

dude if he slept with maya first no complaining just because iri took it to a million second. losing is still fair.

I get what you're coming from. But it still just seems odd to view "having to make a tough choice on who you save" in the same way you would "making a choice to kill somebody to save somebody else or improve the world."

Perhaps it depends on whether you view non-choice as something distinct user? I personally think that non-choice isn't a thing in these situations, that choosing not to take action is itself a choice, that if a human has power they have a duty to use it as best they can, and that not choosing to wield it doesn't mean it goes away or they evade responsibility. I assume in all this you're familiar with the classic ethics thought experiment, the Trolley Problem? The scenario there is a runaway train is going down a main track, and there is a branch track, and you are at the switch station. 5 people are stuck on the main track, one is on the branch track. The train will reach them very shortly. Do you pull the lever and direct it onto the branch, killing that one person, or let it kill the 5?

This is considered a big ethics thing, but I personally find it easy because to me not pulling the lever and letting someone be killed is completely identical to having pulled it to kill them. Non-action isn't a separate thing, it's an active choice. So it's "do you kill 5 people, or do you kill 1 person". Caveat about if you have secondary information about the relative value of each group, but with no other information known I consider it easy.

However there is absolutely plenty of schools of thought that non-action isn't the same as active action. If someone holds that as a moral value, then it's a lot trickier.

I'll add that there are tons of other variants of this, some closer to Kerry, that have been proven through MRI to engage different parts of the brain. Ie., the one where there train is going to hit the people, but you can stop it by pushing the fat guy next to you onto the tracks. Or another where the guy stuck on the side track is the one responsible for the 5 being stuck on the main track.

I bet she has a choking fetish

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Honestly, Amakusa's plan for Apocrypha was the real way to accomplish this,and it was never objected besides
>We're already dead we shouldn't meddle in the affairs of the living world
And
>Ur the villain so we have to stop you

Amakusa's wish was for everyone to live as immortal souls or something like that, it may not be strictly world peace but people would be happy and never die. Pretty much a new era for humanity.

The problem with his plan was that it was non-consensual. Apparently it was portrayed as more of a gray area in the LN but I haven't read it so I can't speak to it.

World peace was non consensual to people who like to wage war and live by selling weapons and like competitiveness and stuff like that but it's understood its for the best. With everyone becoming immortal he instantly solved world hunger in the world and death by diseases, which might not even exist anymore since humans would become magical thingies.

I get the point but if it was the protagonists wish it would have been portrayed as a good thing.

>1500 vs 1501 person
How wold you decide who lives retard?

If somebody had told me back in 2012 that people would still be discussing Kiritsugu and his philosophy near the end of the decade, I wouldn't have believed them.

[# of gay people on Side 1/# of gay people on Side 2]
If the number is greater than 1, nuke Side 1. If the number is less than 1, nuke Side 2.

The real brainlets are the people who aren't trolling and genuinely think that Kiritsugu is wrong when he prioritises saving the greatest number of innocent people.

Did his plan still let people die if they wanted to? Because being immortal otherwise would be a thing of horror. What about new births? If it was just "you can't die until you reach the age of 70 at which point you suddenly get tired and then pass away peacefully 5 days later" or something like it could work more easily. Though better hope that world wasn't on the Note's progression or it'd still suck pretty hard.

Eh, not like it's not a classic ethical question and always will be since there is no one answer to everyone. This is just another instance and twist with its own fun take on the scenario.

Can debate the exact methods though.

The scene at the end with the Grail and kiritsugu Killing everybody was pure kino even if he is a dumbass edgelord

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Have you ever read a tragedy before, user? The point of a tragedy isn't to show how the hero won. The point is to show how the hero is critically fucked up on some degree and show what happens because of that. Fate/Zero isn't a triumphant story like Stay/Night. It's a tragedy, and the fact that it didn't end with Kerry dying cold, sad, and alone instead of with a well-intentioned, loving young adopted son is the only thing that stops the ending from being an absolute shitsack of depression.

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Even so, the World would just say fuck it and Apocrypha would have been culled from the Universe.

The only people Kerry has ever truly saved are Shirou and Irisviel. In every other instance he just chooses the path that results in a theoretical numerically greater number of people surviving. He even remarks that he would've blown up Kayneth's hotel without evacuating everyone first but has gone soft since starting a family

The grail was literally made for the sole purpose of activating the Heaven's Feel and making humanity ascend. Amakusa is the only person in I think the entire franchise that was actually going to use it for its intended purpose, but he's "wrong" for doing it somehow according to retards like Jeanne, who was perfectly okay with Seig unilaterally taking away Humanity's ability to make that choice in the future.

Illya is going to finally manage Kiritsugu's and Shirou's dream and save both the world and her hot grail girlfriends. Best daughter/imouto, but it's not their fault they had the wrong archetype for their dreams.

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>The only people Kerry has ever truly saved are Shirou and Irisviel
Nah user. At the very, very least there was the zombie bee incident. There is no fucking way to claim that if that aircraft had landed (and she was absolutely planning to land it and save herself) there wouldn't have been mass civilian casualties. We don't get to see a lot of other really specific certain examples in the series, but that one at least is unambiguous.

>retards like Jeanne, who was perfectly okay with Seig unilaterally taking away Humanity's ability to make that choice in the future.
I'm not denying that Jeanne was retarded, but we don't know what she would have said about his decision to whoosh the Grail. She was already dead.

>The grail was literally made for the sole purpose of activating the Heaven's Feel and making humanity ascend
I thought in HSN it was made specifically to let the Einzburns recover the Third. They didn't really have any specific plans for it, they just wanted their family magic back as magi. They were forced to ally with others to achieve it and deal with their goals and risks, but that wasn't theirs. And the Tohsakas were just totally traditional magi devoted entirely to reaching the root, for no greater purpose then knowledge. Don't remember what Zouken was after though, but I don't think two of the three families intended to make humanity ascend, at least not with that grail.

>Wait till the tribes engage in a full scale battle.
>Fire the wmd in the middle of said battle and wipe out half of both tribes.
>If their armies meet again, I use the wmd again and wipe out another half of their armies.
The survivors will get the bigger picture and not fight anymore.
See that's what our planet needs. Some sort of an un-biased and un-feeling AI satellite that orbits the planet and processes information. Should a conflict break out somewhere in the world, the AI will fire a laser and wipe out both sides of the conflict. The only way humanity can know peace, is if we hand our freedom over to a non-human third party and let it call the shots as it sees fit.

fuck its been forever. was it somehow going to mess with the laws of physics, flip the reverse side of the world/bring back the gods type stuff too? not that that would necessarily be a bad thing.

Zouken worked with them to claim it for himself. He had absolutely no other way to save Justeaze, since she was beholden to the will of the Einzberns, so if he didn't ally with them, somebody else would have, she still would have died, and he wouldn't have a claim on the Grail.

Schneizel please.

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Zouken wanted to ascend humanity, but eventually his soul started rotting, forgot his original purpose and sought the grail to grant only him immortality.

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Ah that's right, he really was in it for her. Then it became so long that he forgot that, only a desire to claim the grail at any cost. He had a last memory at his end in HF was it?

At any rate, not in it to ascend humanity either, he was probably the closest in some ways to HF shirou.

IIRC his plan involved him keeping his finger on the trigger.

Lancelot, Numeral Gawain, and Galahad are all stronger than King Arthur

>go to tribe 1 and use the magic thing to kill 100~200 and make it clear to them that I did it
>do the same thing with the other tribe
>they have a common enemy now, hopefully they will try to unite forces to beat me
>throw away my life masturbating to fate girls like i am doing right now

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Not a bad idea, nothing works quite like mutual enmity. Why not just tell them that you'll kill more of them if they start pulling shit again?

I'm glad to see both the schneizel strategy and the lelouch strategy come up.

I mean shit yeah how about that Kerry? You use the grail to become a horrible monstrosity, a 1000 foot high cthulu creature thing or something, and make yourself nearly impossible to beat but not if all humanity comes together. Announce you're an alien weapon and the main fleet will arrive in 200 years for colonization and humanity has been selected to be wiped out and stand no chance. Go devastate some areas, focus on the worst parts of the world, until humanity comes together to destroy you and then has to keep together knowing a bigger threat is "on the way". Die as the most hated thing ever, having killed millions, but uniting the world via common enemy. It'd fit him.

Secondaries that still think Artoria is unbeatable are cute.
She's been heavily power creeped by multiple servants in FGO that would wreck her shit

hah wonder if corrupt grail could actually be used this way. could a wish be crafted that it'd grant, like
>i wish to become something that can kill millions and would take ten million soldiers to kill
and it'd go through because mass violence and dark thoughts, yet would work for world peace in a good way anyway. fuck that'd be way better.

>Lancelot, Numeral Gawain, and Galahad
Not so much if they were nerfed by being put into a shitty class. Hercules is pretty wasted as Berserker, yeah his stats are through the roof but all his fuck win skills and strategy and combat smarts are sealed. Obviously they can all be Sabers naturally too though.

>Secondaries that still think Artoria is unbeatable are cute.
No, just stupid. Core interesting point of the setup is that no one is unbeatable, it's not DBZ. Every servant has the offensive power to beat nearly any other given the chance, except maybe a few shitty cheater ones like herc.

What are their tax policies?

Artoria wasn't even unbeatable in Zero, when she was summoned by a decently strong Master, or in FSN, when she was summoned by the person she has incredibly strong compatibility with. She's powerful and Excalibur is basically a kill-all nuke when she can fire it, but she's never EVER been built up as the strongest, besides by Rin, who is a fag for balanced classes.

>she was summoned by the person she has incredibly strong compatibility with
In F/SN she's a shitter until she gets Rin and a master.

>And a master
*as a master.

Sakura also counts.

She pulls off some incredibly feats despite her drastically weakened state that she wouldn't have if it wasn't Shirou's neck on the line, or if he hadn't stepped in

Berserker Lancelot only really lost because of his trash tier master.

Wipe out half of each.

This. Zerkerlot is pretty bullshit. Besides the hypothetical "serious Gil" that will never actually happen, can anyone beat him?

>non-Divine
Ramesseum Tentyris GG lmao

ozy

Berserker class issues is the limit though arguably, it imposes enormous extra strain even on a decent master, only a monster like Illya can really handle it long term. That's why none of them use it normally, Zouken did it in part to give him some extra boost but most for a laugh since it'd make the suffering quotient even higher. And while yeah pretty shit master in F/Z, normally there wouldn't be extra command spells being supplied to get around other limitations.

OZYMIND

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Hercazerk barehanded maybe. There would be no weapon to claim, Zerkalot would get a kill or two but then Herc would become immune and Zerkalot would be out of options and without the brains to try something else. Herc would just beat him to death. While it often jobs for story reasons, 12 Labors is pretty fucking bullshit itself.

Ozymandias.
>non-Divine so he eats huge penalties by entering Ozy's temple
>Ozy doesn't have weapons for him to KOH
>Ozy copies his fighting skills with Imperial Privilege, both while having the presence of mind to play smarter and not being weighed down by a bunch of curses and penalties
>Ozy is already functionally immortal within the temple; has survived having his head chopped off by surprise and regenerated

But Kiritsugu doesn't believe in utilitarianism, he just practice a form of it because it was the only realistic way for him he knows of to get anywhere. But it is still something not acceptable for him, he chased for the Holy Grail to try to create such world without need for such sacrifice.

------------
>Even Kotomine knew that:
>"You do not need to understand. Emiya Kiritsugu desired peace. Isn't it simple? But it was too simple for this complex world. He had to reject the extra parts that could not fit into that perfect shape."
>"But he could not tolerate that.
>He sought a perfect shape, but still wanted to save the extra parts.
>…But that is a miracle exceeding human power.
>There is no such thing as a world without conflict. He sought the Holy Grail to deny that fact."
------------

All he knows is that the Einzberns told him the Holy Grail is a legitimate miracle that could grant any wish, and he had little reason to doubt them considering they could demonstrate their sorcery trait with wish-granting (which is basically the ability to cast things without the knowledge of the magic itself). So basically he believed that such wish is possible with the demonstration, with the amount of power the Holy Grail collects, because the system was suppose to create a miracle, and even in the strict case the Einzbern would be able to give his wish a proper form with their sorcery traits.

>But when he found out the grail was corrupted and limited and malicious it is, he rejected it.
Kiritsugu doesn't even think he's a good person, he thinks he's immoral due to his methods. and one of the reasons he said he doesn't deserve to hold Illya when she was born.

>However, since the Grail at this time was tainted by Angra Mainyu, Kiritsugu was presented with the most malicious imagery of his "saved World".

The thing I find kinda find BS about Berserklot is that he gets the "Eternal Arms Mastership" skill.
It removes the downside of Zerkers being blind brutes when fighting. So he fights exactly like he does in life (which was already pretty strong) with boosted parameters.

Thanos pls go

IIRC Atoria has the highest raw offensive stats with Dark Sakura, and essentially infinite prana, but luck takes a big hit. Rin is also pretty crazy as a master though too for a human.

Wonder if Illya would in fact be the ideal master there, can supply all the crazy power but without the darkening and luck loss. Though hoo boy would that make for some awkwardness/amusement, imagine Einzberns couldn't find herc relic but got back Avalon somehow, and summoned her again because "heroes are new each time", except this time she'd have full memories. Then she'd hear all about Illya's view of Kerry abandoning her. Cue absolutely epic Kerry hatefest.

That was LITERALY the corrupted grail showing the vision of the worst version of any wish.
It was already stated multiple times in F/SN that the corrupt grail will INTERPRET ANY WISH into a wish for complete destruction.
Which means it will even interpret the most harmless and insignificant scale wish as a wish for extinction.

You think that's bullshit? FGO added Minamoto no Raikou, who gets that, a HIGHER degree of Madness Enhancement, and the ability to summon doppelgangers of herself. She's also naturally physically more robust because on top of her years of training and leading, she's also part demon.

Yeah, when shirou talks about his dream being beautiful he meant it, it was Kiritsugu's real dream and it was nice however unrealistic. Kiritsugu should have been born a magical girl.

That's was not his philosophy at all anime only shitter. I bet you don't even know what Angra Mainyu is

THE BEAST THAT ANNOUNCES THE END

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The beauty of Emiya Shirou is that he got the memo and decided attempting to pursue the saving of lives is far more noble and just than just standing aside like a fatass in front of a computer screen watching everything burn.

There's also the trauma and the fact he's literally incapable of NOT saving lives when he has the ability to save them.

>Except that's not what happened.
Don't argue with Fate/Zero babies, they don't stick around for your explanation and leave the thread as soon as they think they won the argument. They didn't even understand the grail was corrupted and thought that's just how the holy grail is.

thats literally the basis of utilitarianism, save as many people as possible. Kiritsugu's morality was just the trolley problem ad nauseam

>What sort of adult human thinks you could just wish all conflict away without killing everyone?
Apocrypha may be dogshit but some of the lore is still in tact and it proves the grail is absolutely capable of that provided you have an idea in mind beforehand (and provided the grail is still untainted).

The problem is Kiritsugu didn't have a METHOD to save everyone, and even if he should the grail was corrupted with All Evil's of The World and would interpret the wish as "ok so kill everyone got it" regardless.

Kiritsugu's situation is unwinnable the second he was told about the grail. He was doomed for failure because his goal is to "save lives" and his method is to "take lives" which nullifies the point. It's a logical, adult decision to make; "you have to kill people sometimes in order to prevent them from killing MORE people."
This was a lost cause as a result.

The beauty of Emiya Shirou is his success in spite of owning a more childish, basic ("fake" if you will) version of that same ideal. He changed the method to an impossibility and wound up saving more lives than Kiritsugu ever did.

Nasu fucking adores his exceptions and Emiya Shirou is one of them. The guy's a hero and would have made his father proud.

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>He changed the method to an impossibility and wound up saving more lives than Kiritsugu ever did.
What the fuck was Shirou's method, besides "throw himself into as many retarded situations as possible"?
>Berserker's about to wreck Saber
He throws himself in the way of a MADNESS ENHANCEMENT BOOSTED HERACLES
>Gilgamesh is about to rip Illya's heart out
"YOU BASTARD" and Gil still kills Illya anyway

Shirou knew that line of thinking was retarded, he still wanted to have the ideal of saving everyone because he thought it was beautiful and something worth fighting for

Lancelot would still beat her though.
KoTRs >>>> almost all nips

Except Shirou didn't and that's the very thing he knows can't even in UBW, his ideal was about the pursuit that made it beautiful for him.

Hercules could definitely beat zerkalot barehanded. Arondight could kill herc, but only once (or maybe a couple of lives at once if used right, but not all). Then herc resurrects and is now immune, and that's basically the end of the fight.

Based

>What the fuck was Shirou's method, besides "throw himself into as many retarded situations as possible"?
That was his method. Risk his life to save everyone.
>He throws himself in the way of a MADNESS ENHANCEMENT BOOSTED HERACLES
Yeah, almost costed him his life didn't it?
>"YOU BASTARD" and Gil still kills Illya anyway
I think you're confused and you think that I implied Shirou is a flawless superman or something. He's constantly putting himself in danger and often times unwinnable situations but his selfish pursuit of selflessness caused him to save a lot of people, which he forgot when he became a Guardian because he spent an eternity basically in Kiritsugu's shoes, which disgusted him.

>>[# of gay people on Side 1/# of gay people on Side 2]
>>If the number is greater than 1, nuke Side 1. If the number is less than 1, nuke Side 2.
>side 1 is 100% gay
>side 2 is 0% gay
>divide by zero
>magical wmd grows a horse dick and rapes you
oh no no no

How do you KOH clones of the person you're fighting that are also stronger than you?

>The problem is Kiritsugu didn't have a METHOD to save everyone
So if I touch a omnipotent wish granting device and ask for world peace, and my method is that the grail will alter human brains in a way, that make it impossible for people to act on their violent thoughts or plans that will lead to more violence, will my wish be granted?

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The grail interprets any wishes as wishes for destruction. If you are the one that made the wish, then you'll only get the worst possible version of your crap that ends in annihilation.

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Free lobotomies for everyone.

Rejoice! You're a Superhero!

So they are going to genoside 2000 people for no reason? Shit men, then its easy, does 1500 deserve to die, who know who would be next in their genoside war

See? Your example is shit

>the bag
kek

Wasn't Iri the perfect master for Saber in Accel/Zero where they were basically guaranteed to win?

>a omnipotent wish granting device
Not the other anons but the thing is that in magic the "device" isn't necessarily just an inanimate object like a phone that you can just use however you want however you acquire it. The method and actions can warp the device too.

Or basically, you can't necessarily accomplish a childish wish with adult methods using magic.

Wishing on the corrupted grail as it is will only be interpreted as a wish for destruction.

Even if the grail was uncorrupted, making a wish is so complicated that it is like programming a computer language that only true gods would know. Because all the grail at that point is pretty much a glorified mana fountain (the grail wasn't even designed to grant wishes)

It says a lot that even with the fucking King of Mages at the winner's side, they could only grant the mundane as hell wishes of more money.

So was Illya with her near infinite mana and literally hercules.
Anytime someone says "it's a guarantee" in Fate you should KNOW things will not go as planned because there are always unexpected bullshit that will crop up to prove them wrong. Happens in real life too.

FSN Illya was even more powerful then Iri though, far more heavily modified. Iri would be more psychologically compatible however.

yup

she didn't get her own route though and everyone knows that route phantasm is the ultimate power in fate. a heroine having a route is like a glorious treasure chest made of crystal happiness and filled with dreams. routelets can just suffer in the abyss.

FUCKING NO

Wait for one side to genocide the other, then drop the WMD on the surviving tribe.

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IMAGINE user

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You have no idea what's even happening in that scene don't you?

IMAGINE

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Fate/Extra Archer, who was suppose to be a gestalt representation of the Shirous even recalls making a suspiciously similar decision with planes dilemma and making sacrifices.

>t. Emiya

>miyuverse Shirou > every route Shirou

What's more worse for him was that in those cases, the people on the plane that were infected with deadly viruses were still conscious as well as working together to try to land the plane. And Archer still had to make the decision to shoot them down knowing full well of their cooperative actions.

Oh, absolutely, that's an inevitability in any route. Heaven's Feel has him run into the planes/trolley dilemma with Sakura. The point of Shirou is that he never gives up seeking a "save everyone" solution. He even decided to protect Sakura while trying to prevent her from killing any more people.

There are many factors about those numbers which Kiritsugu also considers: why would he want to get involved in the first place? What kind of people are on both sides? Are they even worth of saving? And so on. He completely understands that his logic is flawed and his judgement gave him nothing but suffering, he got himself involved in this war to achieve his goal of peace for everyone, he wished to be hero of justice, he wished for utopia that was unachievable and he knew it. Kerry was ready to carry all burdens to achieve this goal, one last time. That was the entire point of Zero.

i mean, the wishes did work in their favor and they saved humanity dozens of times and Solomon finally got to live like a normal person

>kills his father because some dumb bitch stole his research and caused zombie apocalypse
What was his problem?

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>The point of Shirou is that he never gives up seeking a "save everyone" solution. He even decided to protect Sakura while trying to prevent her from killing any more people.
Did you play it? HF Shirou is directly about abandoning the path of the hero and choosing one precious person instead. Like, sure he wants to save her and that would keep her from killing more people, and since she hates it keeping her from doing so is good for her too, but it's totally different from the other routes unless you go Mind of Steel which if they did it in the adaption would have made for one of the biggest shit storms in anime history.

>uses complicated analogy with many factors to seemingly prove a point against a simple, straightforward one
Literal autism. This is why stories can no longer be told straight for what they are without all the bullshit subversion in between. This is the reason why tax posting exist. This is why I don't take people who cry about "muh realism' seriously. You will grasp at any straw as long as it results in you being right and other wrong, simply because the scenario presented doesn't agree with your ideology.

Except he does have to consciously make the decision of giving up saving everybody, which was why him directly killing Artoria Alter with his own hand for his goal was something he knew was going as against his paradigm.

Tell me about the socio-economic systems of both sides as well as their histories. It could very well be that the larger tribe deserves it.

idk why i love Mind of Steel so much, it's not as dark or edgy as the other bad endings but there's something so unnerving about it

There were memories.
There was the warmth of life.
Her warmth was always by my side.

I kill her along with those memories.
I search through my mind and throw them away to where I can't find them again.
They'll never return.
I'll never recall her now.
Such a thing will never be forgiven.

I chose this path.
I killed someone else to save Sakura

Using my own hands, I killed someone who protected me until the very end.
Neither regret nor a confession will bring forgiveness.
…This is what it means to ally with someone.
I'll keep sacrificing important things for the one I love.

And on this path…
There's nothing brilliant enough to make up for what I've lost.

"But Saber"
I'll search all my life for happiness that can measure up to what I've lost.
I'll keep losing more than I gain, and I know I'll stop someday.
ButI'm going to take responsibility for stealing things away, even if I'm pathetic, comical, or meaningless.

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>take ethics class in college
>excited to talk about trolley problems somewhere that's not here
>literally everyone else says they wouldn't pull the level because killing is wrong
I don't get it. is utilitarianism a philosophy that only appeals to autistic manchildren?

Remember that if two people are holding someone hostage, Kiritsugu's philosophy dictates that the best path in all cases is killing the hostage, since its the lesser number. Forget the fact that the criminals might re-offend.

Then remember that this is the apex of Shirou's ideal.

Then remember that the entire point of FSN that the game kept trying to hammer into people's heads over three routes is that hero is not a good thing.

have you every heard of "kicking the can down the road"?

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It's got a lot going for it packed in. You're right hard to put a finger on exactly what it was, but it clicked well. Maybe seeing the insanity that was always in Shirou really coming fully to the fore and into control, the guy we knew pretty well at that point and in a route where he normally gets more human, except now he decisively leaves normal humanity behind. It was a neat end to mix in there though.

Yes, Kiritsugu's struggle with morality is also the one his son goes through.

This is also why all of the heroic spirits in F/SN are kind of dicks. Because even though Shirou's resolve and his swords were both forged in fire, his goal is unobtainable even by people with ridiculous over the top myths like Cu. The whole point of the premise of the original "trilogy" is this. Nasu sort of forgot that at some point.

>archer hero of kittens
based

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>Fate/Extra Archer, who was suppose to be a gestalt representation of the Shirous
He's supposed to be the representation of literally all nameless heroes. Or something. It's actually not very well thought out or explained.

dada wanted to continue DA research
K thought it'd bring another disaster like the one he just experienced
this fits well with his origin and all (to separate)

kinda sucks that we don't see Shirou do those horrible and pragmatic things to win the HGW. I really wanna see him go down that dark path so he can cling on to his stupid dream

Depends. What was the tax policy of each side?

The grail was going to HF everybody in its general vicinity, which would have eventually been the whole world because Amakusa put it in the Hanging Gardens.

Then again no one actually has the ball to be 100% faithful with their own ideology. Because of human tendency, everyone will always try to corrupt their own to fit whatever moral justification they may have.
The only prop I could give to Kerry is that he isn't a robot. That would be scarier.

I miss when fate was about mentally ill children instead of a heroic spirit circlejerk. when did things go wrong?

It was kind of a "dark" path I guess, but I'd almost more describe it as like seeing a real example of blue & orange morality rather then black and white, like we were seeing a Hero but realizing that's not an existence that actually works within the world. Rather then it being a dark path it's more like it's just one that no one else can comprehend yet he's set on maybe? Maybe "becoming a force of nature" would be more like it. Dunno, it was interesting though.

>Fate was pretty decent back in the day
When you were 15 maybe.

My god this is like the kreia threads on Yea Forums

Its such a horrid fucking misrepresentation of how he (and redman) operate

Its not that he kills a shit load of people to save proportionally a few, its that he’ll kill a few to save many

He will kill a war criminal to stop conscription of child soldiers
He will kill his mother to prevent a zombie plague from ruining the world

His father to stop vampires

And he will marry a homunculus and serve as the Einzbern master for a bid to end war and violence. He knows its a long shot but a miracle is what his philosophy demands

The grail is corrupted though and justifies mass murder by taking his ideal to the extreme until none but hisnwife and his daughter are left.

Do you get it retard?

No, he was more of a representative.

>In EXTRA Archer is almost the same entity as the Archer in Fate/stay night (although not the same person), but their true names are different. Please refer to Archer’s Special My Room in EXTRA to find out why his true name is just a regular noun, and not a normal human name.
>Unlike Cas-Ko, Archer’s Special My Room is very simple to access. You can activate all his flags by talking to him in between rounds, Ms. Shirano. [TL NOTE: This Ms. Shirano seems to be an inside joke. Maybe someone called Shirano sent them a fan letter asking how.]

>Archer is a guardian. He was born into the world as a kind of defense mechanism which arose from the collective unconscious desire of mankind for continued existence.
>He was essentially unconsciously elected by the masses to be their faceless representative.

Mind of Steel Shirou is going to murder everyone and destroy the grail after figuring out it's evil. It feels dark to me because he's going down that blue and orange path by killing off every person that mean anything to him in his life for utilitarian reasons. He's basically becoming a force for good in a very inhuman way

Is Nagato Waver?

'
>they used the Das Rheingold to make the grail
Wait is that canon? That's fuckin' hilarious

>whatever the fuck blue is (cold fusion? direct manipulation of the strong nuclear force?)
Something something about consumption and destruction, the 5th is similar to Goetia's plan in this aspect. Time travel/time control is a side effect of Blue.

It’s almost like he thinks all loves have equal value and subscribed to autistic number game.

The real question: was Shirley giving his dad the succ?

*loves=lives

>he thinks all lives have equal value

Except he doesn't, why do you think the Grail's final choice for him was his wife and daughter vs. the entire world?

>The the Rhine gold

This is true. This is also why he is such a one track moron. That is what makes him tragic, sure, but hes still a moron. He literally robs mankind of chances to get better, to improve, to face its demons. There will continue to be war criminals because humanity will just assume some guy will come along and off him. There is no cure for zombie plague because the secret underground magic war is keeping a whole lid on how terrible magicshit can be for humankind (because mages just want to keep practicing magic at the end of the day). Vampires remain a myth because hes just killing all the vampires and moving on. And the grail endures because everyone who could have helped him stop the grail another way or spread the news about the true nature of the grail are either dead or are already on the run.

It goes into where Mind of Steel Shirou is bad not because hes getting the job done through inhumane means, but because hes becoming inhuman to accomplish one job. Once you swing that way towards the proverbial dark side, you'll just keep swinging that way because thats what works out for you - until you stop recognizing what makes the outcome 'good' or 'bad' in the first place (which is basically the ultimate outcome for Emiya Alter).

Its also why Chaldea stands as the absolute good path - because there is coalition building, there is knowledge building, there is networking, there is a concerted group effort to learn as much as possible and get humanity (in Singularities or the real world) to act in the best way possible to treat all the problems threatening life on the planet - as opposed to just resorting to the kill-them-all method which might be ideal for exactly one problem.

It's fitting because Kiritsugu's ideology was based on the complications of the real world and Angra oversimplified it to basically OP's scenario in order to fit his insane murder logic. Kerry's ideology was never supposed to be a simple, straightforward one. You're thinking of Shirou.

Your post is unreadable. Please reformat and try again.

Yes it's canon. That's why the Einzberns are cursed with bad luck though

>Kerry's ideology was never supposed to be a simple, straightforward one.

His calculus is a cost benefit analysis for helping mankind through murder death kill methods. If it ends up not helping mankind, he has to backtrack his methods. This is why he blew up the grail in the first place. Its actually super straightforward.

fuck you

Let them fight. I'm sure only about 1k people will end up dying at best and a lot of people from the losing side will end up surviving as prisoners or escaping.
The flaw in Kiritsugu's logic is that he deals in absolutes and goes trough really extreme decisions without realizing that letting things flow naturally can sometimes end up in a better outcome than anyone could've expect.

>is ok with killing a huge ammount of people instead of looking for other solutions
>calls other people edgy

Fucking this, Amakusa was robbed

>everything she ever did was for his sake
>repays her after putting her to rest by deleting every last memory he ever had of her
Fuck HF Shirou

someone post that comic with how shirou would try to resolve the runaway train issue

he knew her for like a day and a half in HF. The only time they really interact is SLH.

Sparks Liner High was fun, but this scene was also fun in its own way. Seeing Shirou self-destruct because he can't handle losing his ideals, but he can't handle keeping them either--it's the best.

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Makes sense though, retard.
1501>1500

Yeah, the scene wouldn't work without UBW and Fate routes.

If he can untie people, why didn't he just hit the lever and then untie the one guy?

If you're not going to give me any more information I'm not sure what other choice I am supposed to make, kill 1501 to save 1500?

Shirou becomes another slave of Saber's selfrightious naive aura
Shirou lives for himself no matter what
Shirou destroys everything he ever knew and cared about for the woman he thinks he loves when in reality she's jsut the perfect excuse for him to act on the self inflicted punishment and suffering he feels he deserves for surviving the fuyuki fire 10 years ago as not only does it give him the punishment he wishes for it also gives him the most fitting punishment he would ever allow himself, hurting others for his own selfishness while calling it not selfish because he's "saving" someone,.

To this day I do not see why people call this nonsene deep, it all reads like it was written by someone who wanted to be chunni but was too embrassed by it so he tried to make it as serious as possible with tones of violence,sex and flowery monologues by people who think they're "above" normals.
You can sum up the three routes as 2 out of 3 of them are Shirou doing it for pussy and one of them doing it for himself while getting pussy in the process

it's no wonder the most straight forward route is the favorite of the majority

To be fair, it's more taking his philosophy to the extreme and show how it isn't consistent.

>You can sum up the three routes as 2 out of 3 of them are Shirou doing it for pussy and one of them doing it for himself while getting pussy in the process
You can do this for literally any piece of work ever.

It still does, to be honest. It means different things for the audience and Shirou. For us, it's the decision to kill the loyal, earnest king who would have given up everything for her country and bonded with her Master. For Shirou, though, it's the death of his original ideal. He, who once would have sacrificed himself for others, has just taken the life of somebody else for his sake and the sake of the girl he loves. He effectively sacrificed more to allow Sakura to live, but Saber is the first and only person in HF that he directly kills himself. He doesn't have a similar breakdown when he kills Kirei in Fate or Gil in UBW because they were trying to destroy and were malicious; he was the hero who would stop them. Saber, while corrupted and bent to Sakura's will, was more or less innocent to him, and far different than the villains he wanted to stop.

Does anyone call fate deep? Kek
I think some route are well written but there's nothing deep about it

With all of those grail mud/Angra Mainyu stuff in FSN+FZ Holy Grail Wars, Marisbilly truly did a right choice for not participate in the 5th HGW and managed to find other ways to complete his plan.

You're missing the nuance of his character if you boil it down to that. He never wanted to kill people to save others, that's the whole reason he entered the War in the first place. He wasn't "kill the few to save the many," he was "save as many as you can." Reality just kept forcing him into positions where that required killing people, mostly because magi are uncaring dicks. Him blowing up the grail was the crystallization of his ideals because he stepped on Saber's will, ignoring the cruelty of his methods and sacrificing his own happiness in order to neutralize a potential threat to strangers. The point of the thought experiment he went through wasn't to make him look retarded or make him backtrack, it was that he could show his conviction by taking it all the way to killing his own family.

It does make you wonder tho, what if he decided not to shoot illusion Iri and IIiya? What then? Would the grail try to mind rape him with another scenario?

Yeah maybe. I'd have to wipe my memories of Fate and UBW to see for sure. Someone get to work on the mind wiping technology.

Nigga you can't even save yourself.

He never knew the value of human lives.

>kill no one and let 3001 people die
I'll do this. Miss me with that great responsibility shits senpai

>Marisbilly truly did a right choice for not participate in the 5th HGW and managed to find other ways to complete his plan.
>literally joined the 5th HGW and won it

WMD the side with 2000 people since obviously the ones with the superior technology have more to contribute for the rest of humanity and it's better to avoid a war

>magi are uncaring dicks
He wasn't any better. If anything, he was the exact same, only with the ultimate goal being relatively nice, but some of the others could have brought prosperity their own way depending on their wishes despite being garbage people too.
Honestly, his whole ideal was extremely self serving in nature because he kinda just wanted to justify him having lived that long doing what he did.

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Not a very mentally adult one. It's interesting to note that in FSN, both Rin and Shirou, literal teens, when first hearing about Grail both went "Wow, that sounds like something that will not work as advertised".

No, Angra wanted him to accept that scenario so that it could enact it as his "wish". It could curse humanity to its heart's content while Kerry lived in a world free from conflict with his family as the only people left alive. The whole point of the mindfuck was to break his will enough that he'd accept settling down with his family, which was the thing he'd been fighting the whole War. That's what made it a thematically fitting climax.

That's FGO timeline. It was mentioned in Case Files (same timeline with FSN) that Marisbilly didn't join the 5th HGW because he had known about Angra Mainyu thing

I see people continue to be retarded and misinterpret Fate route.

I would have just wished for anyone in a position of power, or to spread information to others to be entirely unable to lie, or falseflag in any capacity whatsoever, or anyone trying to create a narrative that was false and could harm others, or hide intent that was for their own benefit alone.
Maybe nuclear bombs would fall in a single day after that in the entire world, but at least i'd see everyone try to save face, and only be capable of being brutally honest and shock the entire population. If the world can't work with truth from those who control information and those in power, then it doesn't deserve to exist

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Marisbury has to be one of the stupidest characters in Fate in a long time.
>what if there was this super powerful renowned magus that I literally never mentioned prior in all of the times I've mentioned powerful magus

Would actual Iri be revived or would it just be Manjew in Iri's body?

>what if there was this super powerful renowned magus that I literally never mentioned prior in all of the times I've mentioned powerful magus
To be fair he has just been a thing since FGO though. And from what i remember, Nasu hasn't mentioned much about magus stuff in Fate/Typemoon since FGO. Case Files has a bit about him btw.

I neither made nor agree with this, bitch, I was just asked to post it. It arguably matches Shirou at the beginning, but only on a technicality - namely, where he would throw himself in front of the trolley if he THOUGHT it would work. He basically does the same with Berserker v. Saber Round 1. The difference is that that actually would save Saber, while a trolley will obviously just turn him into a pancake, which means that the example makes him look stupider than he actually is.

Hitler went after groups of people with no real reason, and even if you hate the jews or blacks, what did the gypsies do to you? Or what did the polish? Plenty others too

>no real reason
Not that I would be caught dead actually agreeing with Hitler logic, but there's more reason to go after them than after jews and blacks.
>gypsies
Produce absolutely nothing of value for society, live just to survive
>Polish
They actually had their own country. A would-be empire can't let that stand.

Alright, so what about the jews they helped the economy in many ways and he even let the extremely powerful jews live for a while.
There were also people of half and half origin that had to escape or hide even though they did nothing wrong or even killing full blooded germans for trashy reasons because his army would just do as they please

Killing the Jews was not really smart for anything other than keeping his "campaign promises". After rallying the people under the hateful claim that they were responsible and thriving while Germans suffered, letting them be would have been awfully suspicious.

>ITT: philosophy, hypotheticals, history, character analysis
I'm just here to fuck King Arthur guys.

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Yes because you can't kill a fraction of a person. Something like a 0.01% chance to kill someone will still possibly add 1 to the death count, so reaching 1500 is not impossible.

>liking human surf boards

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The ones that watch anime.

waiting around looking for other solutions dooms everyone

Shirou was literally broken. He couldnt NOT try and be Kiritsugu 2.0. At least until he got that worm pussy.

That's kinda the entire point of his character.

It's alright, his parallel world daughter inherited his idealism and became a magical girl in his stead.

This sounds pretty fucking edgy

DON'T FORGET TO DO YOUR CHORES!

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Too bad Kerryfags are too busy being retarded edgelords to understand that the entire series is meant to deconstruct his viewpoint and why it's unhealthy as fuck.

Kerry knows his methods are wrong but couldn't find a more feasible solution to irresponsible magus fucking up the world. That's why he wanted the grail in the first place - because it promised a miracle.

I don't think anyone thinks his viewpoint isn't unhealthy as fuck, the boat scene basically screams that at you. He could've lived a happy life, but decided to live for a self destructive ideal instead of himself.

He broke when Angra Mainyu showed him the only way to bring about his world peace was wiping out humanity. Nasuverse works really like that "humans are dicks" canard; see CCC where every other living being on Earth except for plants vote for humanity's extinction because humans suck.

His ideology is a child's, and he has the literal palate of a child (sucking down more fast food than an American) to highlight that. When he lost that motivation, he became a useless man that had to be taken care of by a child in Shirou.

There is sweet fuckall about magi, you don't understand how deep Nasu's autism goes, and Marisbilly kills himself in every timeline except FGO's so he does not matter

Can't zerkalot just pick up whatever and use it to kill herc? All of the different items he picks up act as different NPs right? Thus bypassing herc's immunity.

>Marisbilly kills himself in every timeline except FGO's so he does not matter
Wait what ?

That was literally the corrupted grail providing the worst possible monkey paw interpretation, which wasn't anywhere close to what he wanted even at the most cynical level.
It would also completely shred your vision too because it interprets all wishes as a wish for destruction no matter how harmless.
The series was about limitations of chasing after any kind of ideals, expressed throughout multiple characters

>The flaw in Kiritsugu's logic is that he deals in absolutes and goes trough really extreme decisions without realizing that letting things flow naturally can sometimes end up in a better outcome than anyone could've expect.

Or worse. The point is, he doesn't take risks. He leaves nothing up to chance. He will take the path that will save the maximum possible number of people GUARANTEED, and that's it. It's better than getting greedy, trying to save more, fucking up because of unfounded optimism and losing more lives than planned.

>Angra Mainyu showed him the only way to bring about his world peace was wiping out humanity
No, he showed him that it was the only way in which Kiritsugu could imagine a peaceful world and therefore was all that the grail could accomplish for him. He never completely gave up as we know that he continued to travel the world and solve conflicts while he was living with Shirou. His dream is that of a child, his ideology is that of an adult. That's why he tells Shirou that adults can't become seigi no mikata and is put at ease when a kid promises to take up that naive dream and hopefully achieve it in a way Kerry couldn't.

Also, you are obsessed. The fast food is about utilitarianism and how he turns himself into an unfeeling tool. In contrast to Shirou who is able to express his humanity around the dinner table.

No, he never accepted those actions as solutions in the first place, which was the whole fucking reason he seek the grail to find an 'actual' solution.
What actually broke him was realizing the whole grail thing was a scam and there is no fix-it solution, especially since it also requires quantum computer level of visualization of the wishes regardless. In other words, assuming the grail wasn't corrupted (i.e. not turning EVERY wishes into a wish for human destruction) it requires a solution beyond what a human can devise.

>When he lost that motivation, he became a useless man that had to be taken care of by a child in Shirou.
The grail mud was killing him and made him lose his ability to use magecraft.
That still doesn't stop him from constant going oversea to get Illya back (hence the constant trips that Shirou was talking about). And he didn't ignore the future consequences of the Greater grail either considering he setup explosives to cause a mana chain reaction to collapse the cavern when future hgw occurs, (which plays a part in closure of non-HF endings)

He's retarded and probably mixing up characters. The only character who committed suicide in all timeline's besides FGO is Lev Lainur. It's his failure to do so in FGO that allows Goetia to kick off his master plan.

>The only character who committed suicide in all timeline's besides FGO is Lev Lainur.
It was confirmed that Lev also committed suicide in other Fate timelines (except FGO) too ? Since i only know about Clock Tower 2015 which is in Tsukihime/Mahoyo timeline

Yes. He's pretty much the "for want of a nail" that secures or denies FGO. Any timeline in which he fails to kill himself before Flauros takes over is doomed to lead to the success of Goetia's plan. Where the hell did we hear about Marsbilly killing himself?

Blue is the power of being based.
That is until Nasu fully explains it, since he is holding that back.

I'm going into semantics, Goetia's plan is similar to the 5th in certain ways, but only about 99% as effective, which means while it could be infinitely close to being the real deal, it is virtually incomparable in actual capability.

end yourself

I could kill the leader and only the strongest warriors of both tribes. Then threaten to enslave and kill all of them if they keep being retarded

>Isn't the point of True Magic that it cannot currently be achieved by any other method? Things such as instant long-distance communication would have been True Magic at one point until science caught up.

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of regular magecraft. True Magic is a phenomenon that science or any other method can't ever imitate.

I do actually agree that non action isn't a separate thing. Not making a choice is still a choice, pretentious though that might sound.

>Viewing normal breast size as flat.
Disgusting.

>Can't zerkalot just pick up whatever and use it to kill herc? All of the different items he picks up act as different NPs right? Thus bypassing herc's immunity.
It's not enough to be an NP, has to be A-rank (or higher obviously) to have any effect at all. Random shit picked up isn't A-rank. Now if there are a bunch of other servants around obviously that's different, maybe something can be worked out (though zerkalot keeps skill but still doesn't have higher level planning function, so it'd depend on them/masters). But 1v1 nah.

I think you should kill the 3001 so that it's fair for everyone.

That's not fair to the superior people though, fair is if the inferior are sacrificed.

No one is superior in the face of death

>Sorcery: Mysteries of a different kind than magic, that produce phenomena considered impossible to recreate in the modern era. Ultimately magical research aims to reach Sorcery. In the modern era, only five things are called Sorcery.
>"Sorcery," making the impossible possible
>Sorcery is a mystery of a different kind than magic. Magi refer to phenomena that are unachievable by magic and science in their time as Sorcery. If a phenomenon could be achieved by time and resources, then no matter the difficulty, it would not be considered Sorcery. When human civilization was young, all magic was Sorcery. But with the advancement of science, the number of feats achievable by people increased, and in exchange, Sorcery diminished. In the modern era, the number of remaining Sorceries has dwindled to a mere five.

>secondaries
Except most people that think that are people who read the VN because the VN goes out of its way to pretty much prove that Arturia with Avalon and an actual competent Master is pretty fucking high up there on the tier list.
Before FGO and everything weakened her.
At that point Nasu just made Excalibur a planet-saving NP because fuck you that's why.

There is no true choice anyway
World is predetermined

Their train of thought is "If I don't pull the lever, I'm not actively killing someone."
Which is just wrong because choosing to not take action is in this context effectively the same as pulling the lever. If you have all the means at your disposal to make sure five people don't die and you choose not to do it, you're still killing five people.
>but the lever was this way and I didn't actively kill anybody
That's about the same as seeing someone who's about to blow up a building, knowing full well people are inside, and choosing to not do anything assuming your only option is to kill him. Sure, you didn't directly kill the people in the building, but you could have saved them. You indirectly killed them and will still need therapy and have guilt issues afterwards.

Lol yeah! And he never saw any negative consequences for it! What the fuck?!
Wait...

The only thing predetermined in this world is that you and OP are faggots.

I don't think Kiritsugu's decisions could be important enough to be a Time-Lock though.

not that user but you have never heard about Quantum Time-Lock/Human Order Foundation right ?

Erotic Hentai 35 pictures:oxy.cloud/d/PCo

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You don't need to have a good education to see why that sounds retarded. Kiritsugu's just an idiot.

kill the leaders and important people of both sides and tell everyone i will nuke the shit out of them if they dont chill the fuck out and behave. there, i killed at worst about 100~ people at saved everyone else
>n-not ur business stay away imperialist swine!!
also implying they have any good reasons to fight and are not being manipulated by a third party who will profit immensely at their expense

Wow thank Jessica for the high-quality and virus-free images! My peenus weenus got really hard after that haha

Eh. Utilitarian consequentialism has it's own issues. Mostly that human beings are really bad at predicting the future. Sure in the trolley problem there is a clear and definite chain of consequences to pulling the lever, but that's basically the ONLY place you're ever going to see a clear and definite chain of consequences. In a situation where you can definitely kill one person in order to probably avert five people dying, acting in accordance with a principle ("Don't kill people") is a valid call, because as principles go, the general application of "Don't kill people" has saved a lot more lives than five.

Romani, pls

>Romani
Nah, he's only watching and asking Magi Mari on internet, user.

>Mostly that human beings are really bad at predicting the future.
That's a problem with humans, not the moral system. A moral system is your belief in what's "good" and "bad". We shouldn't choose our moral system based on what allows us to be "good" but based on what we believe is "good". This isn't an argument against utilitarianism. All other moral systems are for brainlets who don't even understand what they want.

>is utilitarianism a philosophy that only appeals to autistic manchildren?
Yes, because only manchildren have the free time that allows them to learn philosophy and rational thinking. People who work and spend all day preoccupied and exhausted will never develop critical thought or the tools necessary to understand what's correct and incorrect. Learning philosophy and critical thinking is a luxury that's probably never going to benefit anyone, which is why most people don't care.

>Forget the fact that the criminals might re-offend
Does he actually not care about that? If that's the case, Kiritsugu is not a consequentialist.

Not in lore. FGO bullshit doesn't matter.

Galahad being stronger than Artoria has been a thing long ago though ? It is even true irl as i remember. I might be wrong anyway

They werent real though

What exactly is so bad about becoming Kiaras sexslave and reaching nirvana together?

Rapture is bad, user. And to be fair she only truly loves Hans after all.

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>Kerry is retarded for thinking like that
>doesn't explain what's wrong with it
Every time.

Boku wa...

Well explain what he would have done then if it's wrong.

Haven't seen any of the adaptations. I was wondering whether the series or the movie was the better version of UBW.

The series is better user, you don't need to watch UBW movie though

youtube.com/watch?v=Pq4SSlsZ_p0

Thanks. I was only planning on watching one or the other anyway

Both will have casualties there will be 1000 or less left standing at the end of the day. If the hate is mutual I let them duke it out, it was none of my business anyway.

There is magic and wizzards
and a dude who uses mercury as a weapon and is older than 30
I'm pretty sure you would sound like "there is no way a dude would send his car to space in a publicity stunt" over there

>And to be fair she only truly loves Hans after all.
Kiara loves everyone. She can't be what she is without loving everyone.

>But this CAN be real. You can install cameras in every nook and cranny, have everyone wear shock collars to control them from violent crime, and have advance AI or something to monitor everyone at once to make sure no one does anything wrong. That gets the same effect but doesn't sound ideal at all.
At that point you can brainwash the people into liking the system, hell people are brainwashed into believing feminism and gender pronouns already Why this isn't a thing already? inb4 china social credit system

>Kiara loves everyone. She can't be what she is without loving everyone.
This sounds more like Kama/Mara's stuff though. Kama/Mara gives love for everyone and Kiara receives love from everyone but the point is, both of their definitions of "love" are completely wrong. III/R is the Beast of Pleasure while III/L is the Beast of Decadence. They do love humans like every Beasts, but their ways of loving is bad, especially in Beast III's case. It should be "Kiara love everyone's desires"
>Love is a fine thing, and desire is also something good.
>Be that as it may, it is the act of a beast when "love is turned into pleasure".
>Originally, love and desire are things to be thought of separately and they should be carried out at the same time for satisfactory results.
>When the soul of the messiah who tried to love and bring joy to people attained the Third Magic, Sesshouin Kiara metamorphosed into something inhuman.
>Wishing for the greatest salvation, she brings relief to every animal on Earth via pleasure while also becoming an outlet for said pleasure.
>Seven billion lives for the sake of her own salvation alone, in an attempt to reach climax.
>Unaffected by a purpose or a sufficient end, she's just trying to bring salvation to a "human" with pleasure alone.
That's why i said her love for Hans is true anyway.

>Its also why Chaldea stands as the absolute good path - because there is coalition building, there is knowledge building, there is networking, there is a concerted group effort to learn as much as possible and get humanity (in Singularities or the real world) to act in the best way possible to treat all the problems threatening life on the planet - as opposed to just resorting to the kill-them-all method which might be ideal for exactly one problem.

Old Chaldea was good, I have a bit of doubts on the Novoum Chaldea because I can't trust Sion and Gordolf has done nothing but be a fuck up.

In legend, Galahad always trumped Arthur.

>FGO shit doesn't matter
But it does. Seiba's entire character is to be Galahad but a selfish idiot failure anyway. Looking for the wrong Grail, for the wrong reasons.

>sexslave
She kills you immediately. You're not a sex slave but a sextoy with expiration date to one fuck or less if you give in.

Kama doesn't love anyone either. Neither of them do. It's lust not love. Kiara wants to take all the lust and Kama give it.

>I have a bit of doubts on the Novoum Chaldea because I can't trust Sion and Gordolf has done nothing but be a fuck up
Because Novum Chaldea doesn't have Chaldeas which is the key part of Old Chaldea's Rayshift system, the Animusphere's treasure (it was made with both science and their own mangecraft) and most importantly, Rayshift is considered as the biggest threat for the "God of Another Planet" when it has Chaldeas. Rasputin/Kirei specifically told Anastasia to destroy it in Prologue 2.0 and Sion said the invasion could only begin after Chaldea/Rayshift system had been destroyed. Chaldeas was also the reason why Marisbilly had to participate in the HGW and according to Lostroom mats, it wasn't created in Chaldea too (Transported from XXXXXXX to Chaldea).

Since Chaldeas was created with the Animusphere's magecraft, Sion is not able to recreate something like that (currently we use her Trismegistus II + Paper Moon instead of Trismegistus + Sheba). If Chaldeas had been a thing in Novum Chaldea, we could have used Rayshift to encounter Lostbelt and all the stuff in Ooku event could have never begun. That said, at least Sion prevented Kama from doing reverse-rayshift to Guda and Mashu while for Gordolf, he's a third-rate magus after all.

unironically based.

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your reasoning forgets that someone else will most likely take over and repeat shit

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There was a very old Superman comic where to stop a war he gathered the generals of both armies and made them fist fight in front of everyone