Now that the dust has settled, who was in the wrong here?

>Ad Hominem attack

Not him, but thinking that the Holy Grail War was a place for honorable dueling in the first place was really just an assumption on his part. A few minutes of critical thought evaluating the kinds of people participating and their reasons should make someone question that line of thinking. Why would magicians stake the entire ritual on who summons the best SSR and not do everything they can to rig the game in their favor? That was him just trying to get his wish without winning the magic cup. It's not really a "Moralfag vs Edgyfag" issue so much as there was never really the framework for anything honorable to happen there in the first place.

>honour
>in a dick waving contest between mages who would sell their own children for some random piece of esoteric knowledge

Lancer is the guy that goes muh 1v1 in videogames when he is at 100% hp and you are 2%, fucking "muh honorabu" my ass

Let me propose this: Kiritsugu was in the wrong for dealing with the situation they way he did when there was a 99.99% he would have gotten the same results (Lancer getting his duel is just a bonus) and slaughters 2/3 people just to mitigate that 00.01% chance of failure.

>But Lancer might've won!

The LN makes it clear that he's completely outclassed and Saber's just toying with him for the sake of honoring the agreement.

>But Kayneth could form a pack with another servant!

Could he? From Kerry's knowledge, he knows that
>Kayneth Fried Circuits
>has no command spells
>Assassin is dead
>Caster is dead
>Rider hates Kayneth
>Berserker isn't of the mind to make a contract and would drain him instantly
>Gil is Gil

The only one with any chance of defecting to him is, ironically, Saber.

He honestly could have just let him go with extremely little chance of changing the HGW's outcome, but maybe he didn't want to leave loose ends with ties to powerful magus families? It's not hard to see that coming back to bite him after the war.

It was excessive and its framed so that the audience thinks like your post. The key point of Kiritsugu's character arc in Fate/Zero is that his brand of Heroism was not that his "kill 1 to save a thousand" nonsense was right, its that he was completely wrong. You can't solve the problems with killing and simplistic utilitarianism, there is always going to be conflict.

>Could he? From Kerry's knowledge, he knows that
>Gil is Gil
He doesn't know this. Nobody knows Gil's identity except for Tokiomi, Kotomine, and Rider.

Saber is more to blame than Diarmuid.
Diarmuid understood that his personal honor had to be of secondary importance compared to his master's life and/or victory. It's why he abandoned the fight in the forest to save Kayneth, and it's also why he broke one of his lances to allow Saber to stop Gilles. Saber refused to accept the circumstances of the war and kept insisting on her stupid honor which caused Kiritsugu to feel as though she had betrayed him.

Kerrytugu did nothing wrong

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That is one of the dumber moments of the anime in light of Fate/Stay Night. Saber in F/SN would likely not be on board with such tactics since she didn't need to do that to win, but she her definition of honor was far more loose than her fight with Kiritsugu implies. In the Fate route Saber is about to slaughter a defenseless on the ground Rin before Shirou stops her, after she already took out Archer bad enough that he couldn't leave spirit form to protect Rin.

Zero is technically an alternate timeline rather than a true prequel, so you can chalk it up to that if you're feeling generous.
Or you can blame Urobuchi for being a hack, which he is.

seiba is never wrong

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Killing Kayneth was pointless and needlessly edgy.
>severely crippled and humiliated, the face he makes at his wife is of a man who just wants to make it out of that mess alive no matter the cost
>Assassin and Caster are dead leaving only Gil, Saber, Jets, and Rider to contract with. Rider and Saber would never contract with him, Berserker would dissipate extremely fast after Kariya is killed, and Gil's master is the least of your worries when dealing with him.

Even in actual war, people who pull the shit Kerry did are labeled as criminals and mass murderers.

Fate/Zero was just a big ole "let's shit on Saber"

Urobuchi has a fetish for breaking honorfags

It's not that he was mad over having to stab himself in the chest with a spear, it's that he had an assblasted tantrum over the mere idea that it could happen to him. Tactics like that are HGW 101 and should be expected as a matter of course.

>sacrifices his 11/10 wife and daughter for some backwater voodoo ritual that has never actually been recorded to work for a poorly thought out wish that has so many fucking loopholes the grail didn't even need to be corrupted by Manjew for the wish to turn sour.

At least Prisma Kerry isn't a dumbfuck and knew what was really important.

Sacrifice or not Iri was on death's door. Kiri honestly believing that wish could be possible without wiping out all life or turning everyone into jellyfish or something is the part that seems the most absurd to me though.

F/SN Saber is punished "venom" Saber, mentally broken after destroying the grail with her own hands. F/SN is the version of her that's "out of character" compared to every other canonical depiction of her, and that's for story reasons and the fact that she needs to take the reins more since Shirou is so passive.

any of you fags have a guide for this fate shit? don't even know where to start with this

Read the VN. Watch Zero. Do whatever.

Violet Evergarden.

so i get narratively this wouldn't be particularly interesting, but is there any actual reason kiritsugu couldn't just teleport behind everyone with square accel and shoot them in the back of the head? assuming he has avalon it seems to not really put much of a toll at all on him

simple enough

Nothing in this post makes sense. Zero is the only other depiction of her where she does anything significant outside of FSN and HA, and it's the odd man out there. How the fuck is Shirou passive?
Read the VN. Don't watch Zero first. Otherwise in terms of anime really only the UFOtable stuff, the cooking show, and carnival phantasm are worth watching

Servants are still faster.

That doesn't help him find opponents. Sniping has the same effect.

>Only one user of a True magic can exist at a time per world line

Okay, but how does that work with second magics dimension hopping?

maybe the fast ones yeah, but was enhanced kuzuki who splattered rider really that much faster than maxed out kiritsugu?

also i mostly meant vs other masters, like how he fought kirei and kayneth

not that it would've altered the outcome much either time

You for feebly trying to ascribe concepts like "logic" or "sense" to the Fate series.

so vn, first aired anime then zero ?

he ended up engaging in multiple face to face duels

Nasu for writing fate
Fatefags for reading and watching it
You for making this shit thread
And most of all me for responding to your low effort bait

>it seems to not really put much of a toll at all on him

It actually does, they don't show it in the anime but he was under extreme strain from square accel to the point where his internal organs and blood vessels were rupturing

i'm of course assuming he has avalon, which instantly let him come back from being basically donutted

>Zero is the only other depiction of her where she does anything significant outside of FSN and HA
>F/GO doesn't exist
>Garden of Avalon doesn't exist
Don't reply if you don't know what you're talking about. As for Shirou being passive, I'm mainly talking about Fate route Shirou, and early in the other routes when he doesn't have his bearings in the war and isn't fully committed to the idea.

Kuzuki has an unconventional martial arts style which gives him an edge over any humanoid enemy though

If you have the stomach and time for it, the original VN first, then the Zero anime and any of the shitty VN adaptations if you care, then Hollow/Ataraxia, then AUs and side stories, of which there are dozens in all forms of media

Thats still bad writing though, it was spelled out pretty clearly in F/SN that Saber was a tough king who was focused far more on saving her kingdom and being a sacrifice than her honor. She just didn't take her ideals to kiritsugu's murderous conclusions, but she still would fight like hell and do what it takes. Killing an opponent like Rin who could fight back if allowed to escape makes sense. There is even anecdotes in the flashbacks about her confiscating necessary provisions for her wars. In zero she's presented as a simple moralfag contrast to Kiritsugu's edge, it's only by writing her like she's stupid that this works.

Kek Saber does absolutely nothing in FGO. Her only two presences in the story are edgy alternate versions of her with entirely separate characterization

Whoever created this shit series

>In the Fate route Saber is about to slaughter a defenseless on the ground Rin
Are you forgetting the fact that she and Shirou just survived an attempt on her Master's life in his own home just seconds after she was being summoned, and that she had absolutely zero reason to believe that the Magus that just ran in on her with a Knight-class Servant was anything other than another combatant come to kill her contractor?

I honestly just forgot about garden of avalon, but a couple interludes in fgo counts for jack shit unless you're talking about the lancer version which has a pretty radical departure from the saber we're talking about, or some swimsuit adventure bullshit

F/GO exists for waifu appeal so of course any edge of saber would be written out or just given to saber alter.

This.

>I literally kill for a living
>wtf where are your morals, fight me to the death honorably!!

>couple of interludes
The original version of her gets flashbacks from Bedivere in the main story of Camelot and her personality is the same as in F/Z. Again, don't reply if you don't know what you're talking about.

>that's still bad writing though
>character is fleshed out and shown to be multi-faceted and capable of feeling different things at different times
>this is somehow bad writing
Maybe if you weren't a speedreader, it wouldn't be.

That flashback is basically just her going "Seriously dude, just let me die. Throw the sword in the pond". You've being vague to make it seem like there's more there

I'm not saying she was wrong, but that's not what the mary sue honorable knight zero paints her as would do is my point, her sense of honor is far more nuanced than that. Saber liked a good fight and wasn't as underhanded as kiritsugu, but she would have killed the masters as needed provided it wasn't over the top in brutality.

Its so obvious that this whole scene was there for Urobuchi to shit on Saber because lol honorfags and then end with Lancer cursing everyone because muh gritty war where everyone suffers. I'm glad he's now playing with puppets and left Fate alone.

>There is even anecdotes in the flashbacks about her confiscating necessary provisions for her wars.
F/GO expands on this. She wasn't going around ruthlessly ransacking villages. She was evacuating and dismantling the villages and taking in the citizens into Camelot. She hated doing this and lamented it to Bedivere, but only did it because it was the only way for her people to survive.

That's not the one I'm talking about. Flashback I'm talking about is the one I mentioned above. This is the third time I'm going to say this, but please don't reply if you have no idea what you're talking about.

>don't reply if you don't know what you're talking about
You absolute faggot, your pretention aside, those interludes add nothing to her character. They're just little fanservicy scenes rehashing stuff we already know about her from a million other adaptations and routes

Kiritsugu for being a cunt. He could have written in the Geass Contract that Kayneth won't go after him once the trade is done or that he had a day to leave Japan, killing him as a preemptive measure was dumb.

Also it's one thing to kill the enemy Servant - that much no one can say is bad. But he took many unnecessary steps in cruelty and THAT wasn't required at all.
All he needed was to point a gun at Kayneth in the wheelchair to get him to agree and suicide Lancer, since Kayneth was in no condition to counter it. Meaning he didn't need to use Sola as a hostage and especially not a Sola with her arm cut off. Kayneth had no way to respond to the machinegun so he would have agreed either way to that contract.
And once he killed Lancer he was obviously defeated to his very core. Murdering him was just styling on him. There was the chance Kayneth would have contracted Mage Assassins to kill Kerry, but Kerry could have prepared for it on the Geass Contract if he cared about that. Honestly, it was a harmless mage with no magic and his half-dead fiancee. Shooting them down pushed Kiritsugu into the complete monster territory for me.

>interludes
I'm talking about extended flashbacks in the main story, in Camelot, written by Nasu, as canon as canon gets. Nobody here seems to have any idea which scene I'm even talking about, so you're clearly either a speedreader or you never read it. Stop pretending you have.

Yeah I wonder why didn't Kerry complain. Saber was fighting Lancer, he suddenly decides to jump away at their Masters' direction... and she thinks it's ok? Was Arthuria just gonna let her own Master get murdered? Because that was the likely scenario. And not stopping Lancer is one thing, but not even chase after him?
If she wanted to know what was going on in the castle, at least follow Lancer so your Master isn't left unprotected.

>speedreader
I'm not saying she would support kiritsugu's edge, but in Zero Saber is presented as some kind of naive honorfag who doesn't understand war. The issue is not that she called kiritsugu out, the issue is that Fate/Zero has to make her dumber so Kiritsugu can have that debate and conflict with her and make it look like he's on top. Its bad writing because it takes an established character and changes her personality to attack a childish concept of medieval european honor. The "ideology clashes" in Zero involving Saber are always framed with her on the defense and seemingly answerless to Iskander, Kiritsugu, and Gilgamesh to make the audience see her as naive or stupid.

>Yeah I wonder why didn't Kerry complain.
He did complain. Although the reason Saber didn't follow him was because Iri was getting the shit kicked out of her by Kotomine.

> in Zero Saber is presented as some kind of naive honorfag who doesn't understand war.
This is not remotely how she's portrayed. She criticizes Kiritsugu because she believes there's no way someone with a heart as cruel as him can have noble intentions. At no point does she criticize his tactics as being ineffective. The debate between them is solely about whether she can trust him. She does the same shit with Shirou. If he suggests that she go around feeding on civilians, she says she'll kill him right then and there. Saber has always been Lawful Good aligned.

>written by Nasu, as canon as canon gets
Spotted the Nasu apologist. Either way, I recall specifically what scenes you're speaking of now, and Saber is very clearly intended to just be a foil for Titty Artoria and to flesh out Bedivere's character some more. She really couldn't matter less.

So because her story role isn't central to the plot, that means that you can just ignore her characterization? I was just using that as one example of Saber being consistently Lawful Good aligned.

I'm uninvolved in the Zero debate you're having, I'm just saying that her appearances in FGO provide absolutely zero evidence regarding her character that's not just as strong or stronger elsewhere. FGO is a mess of very slight AU versions of characters anyways, like lots of the EXTRA characters and Emiya, so I really don't think you should be treating it as a valid source with which to analyze older canon.

Anything written by Nasu is a valid source with which to analyze older canon written by Nasu. Not everything in F/GO is written by Nasu, but Camelot was.

The writer has nothing to with it you mongoloid, Camelot's Saber just flat-out isn't the same character as FSN's Saber since her history splits drastically after the Battle of Camlann and Bedivere fails to return the holy sword. Using lines from one to prove characterization for another is something that should be taken with a grain of salt at best and ignored entirely if possible. I'm saying you're entirely capable of making your point without using FGO, so you should stop weakening your position by referencing ambiguously relevant material.

Even at this instance, the King of Heroes knew He was finished, didn't He?

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Its very weird to see people using an extremely Irish name on a Mongolian cartoon newspaper.

Watch studio deans fate stay night if you like torture.

You said you recalled which scenes I was talking about, but apparently you didn't. I'm talking specifically about a flashback Bedivere has to way before the Battle of Camlann, to the original Saber with her original appearance. I know the difference between Saber and the Lion King. That is not relevant to this conversation at all.

The whole point of that scene is to compare and contrast the new King Arthur to the one we know from F/SN. Naturally, it is meant to be representative of the one from F/SN.

I'm going through the archives to find the scene right now since nobody seems to even believe me that it exists.

Yeah, after personally depleting the other 98% beforehand, also in 1v1 combat.

If you play the VN, then the 2006 anime can and should be skipped.

>People bring up scenes she appeared in in Camelot
>"No not that one"
>Won't clarify which one he means
>Keeps acting belligerent

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This. Saber would kill a teenager for making a suggestion like that. She's crazy lawful good BUT not a little naive girl.
In a way, Arthoria is a better Jeanne D'arc than the actual Jeanne in Fate. A good lady, but still a lady of war.

Hesitation is defeat

I just spent 15 minutes patching the scene together in MS paint and then my computer died while I was saving it, so fuck it. If you want to watch it, it's chapter 8 of Camelot, Sanzang Returns from India

>F/GO expands on this
F/GO is mindless pandering trash made up over a decade after the fact. It's not seen as canon by anyone but its paypigs.

I should make this more clear, I think Kiritsugu's killing of kayneth was pointless butchery. I rewatched the scene and while you are right about what she said, but the focus on kiritsugu's edgy rant on honor and warfare without a rebuttal from saber is still an example of how the debate is poorly written. It's presented in a way that Saber is supposed to look emotional compared to a more rational and calm "realist" kiritsugu. The scene should be conveying to the audience that Kiritsugu is completely fucked in the head and that is what I get out of the exchange, but the surface level makes it seem like Kiritsugu won. He had the last word, he more explicitly stated his ideals compared to Saber, and nothing actually changes much as a result in their relationship. The way it's framed, it's far more likely for someone to agree with or respect Kiritsugu's stance, even though he's more of a retard than Shirou.

That's what I'm saying, what Fate/Zero does is dumb down her character so Kiritsugu can edgewank without opposition.

Your tantrum falls apart due to the fact that Nasu has flatly stated that it's canon. The original creator decides canonicity, not some nobody westerner.

Imagine whining about the largest expansion of lore and setting just because it has titties when every single game Nasu has ever had has "mindless pandering trash" jam packed into it

Who said anything about tits?

Nasu is a hack who frequently changes what's canon based on sales and popularity polls. F/GO was just him patching up an intended dark side of Saber's idealism to make her even more of a non-threatening Mary Sue that nobody can complain about.

It's always about the tits.

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>muh canon
Fate is mess of alternate universes because servants sell so it makes sense to just keep on creating stupid grail war scenarios disconnected from the original fuyuki story. F/GO is this concept taken to gatcha extreme where waifuism is main draw, not story. F/GO shouldn't be treated as cannon when talking about F/SN because it has nothing to actually fucking do F/SN. I keep seeing people claim it invalidates the canonicity of the original game anyways, so why fucking talk about it in relation to F/SN or Zero at all?

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Yeah, I wonder. An in-character Saber would probably just grab him by the neck and put him against a wall to explain himself.
Though Fate/Zero is a prequel so I can't criticize too much on it. Saber retains her memories, maybe we have to accept she was naive at first and that's the thing that changed her.

That's not a writing issue, that's a directing issue. They framed it that way so it looks like that on the surface for secondaries who are just watching for the fight scenes.

In all fairness you're comparing Irish Lancelot to Irish Hercules

>Sacrifices
They weren't his to begin with you fucking retard.
Irisviel and Illya were going to die no matter what, they're homunculus designed to be the container for the grail. Irisviel was dying the SECOND she stepped into Fuyuki and dead Servants started filling her up.
Illya is designed to die shortly after age 18 as I recall.
Kiritsugu's only hope was that the grail wasn't tainted with all the evil's of the world and oh shit turns out it is.

/Zero babies piss me the fuck off, they don't understand even their favourite part of the series.

>Fatefags
Imagine having a franchise this disconnected because of what Nasu says and does

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>every single game Nasu has ever had has "mindless pandering trash" jam packed into it
Not Mahoyo.

FATECHADS always win mlpkek

You know, I never thought of it like that.

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>go into a Fate thread
>act smug about Fate posters

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>lore and setting
I'm tired of this shit meme. Lore and setting are a tool to tell a good story so if the plot and characters are shit so is the lore because its pointless. Read random wikipedia articles if you just want to know a bunch of useless shit.

I do read random wikipedia articles though.

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>muh Nasu dictated canon
The creator loses credibility when they switch the canon around as much as Nasu has, especially when half the reason he does it is so waifu autists can self insert better. Fucking hang yourself, gachashitter.

Cope
CHADsu always win

I would if it wasn't for the fact that she already would have done other grail wars as implied in F/SN, and she was also a king who fought and won many wars. She wouldn't be that naive.

It's still a writing issue because she didn't get much of a rebuttal, but that's more so because Kiritsugu's ideal's couldn't survive a serious debate.

>Original Saber with her original appearance
Debatable. I know what you're talking about and am saying what I'm saying regardless. She's still fundamentally from the Lion King worldline. You're assuming that pre-Camlann, Artoria's history is exactly identical to FSN's Artoria. I'm saying that, given the fucktons of other servants in the game that are very similar to their original counterparts, yet have subtly distinct differences (Vlad is another that comes to mind), assuming not only the particular Saber from those flashbacks of a distinct world from original Saber but really any incarnation of her at all in the game has dubious connection to FSN. It's a retelling, user, not a continuation.

>honor is the same as morality
woman detected

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Their system is literally a lite version of Grand Servants summoning system by Counter Force, user

When was the first time that explanation was used?

worst lancer

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Kiritsugu was right, but he wasn't correct.

Only tangentially on topic but i'm reading Cu Chulainn of Muirthemne and its so fucking cool, even if it is mostly just various demonstrations of how Cu is the fucking best at everything. As expected from best servant. Here's a quote from the book :

"That is truly a drop before a downpour. I know well who that man is. Like the sound of an angry sea, like a great moving wave, with the madness of a wild beast that is vexed, he leaps through his enemies in the crash of battle, they hear their death in his shout. He heaps deed upon deed, head upon head; his is a name to be put in songs. As fresh malt is ground in the mill, so shall we be ground by Cu Chulainn."

Lancer.

I don't know if it can be simplified into a "right" or "wrong" situation. Kiritsugu's main goal is to win the Grail War through any means. The servants are just that, servants. Having morals is all well and good but the Grail War is not the place for it and the servants should realize it but in that situation they were going by the rules that they were fighting for themselves and not for someone or something else. They were fighting in a world that was not their own.

I do sort of feel for Lancer because he gets he gets fucked over here and in SN

Lancer. The age of heroes and honor had long since passed.

Doesn't EA have a crazy lengthy 'cast' time or whatever the term is? Like even if He HAD brought it out arm intact, He still couldnt have IMMEDIATELY unleashed Enuma Elish could He?

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Where my Riderbros at?

IIRC Nasu said that in an interview (the one which he explained Grand Servant summoning system)

Diarmuid was literally too beautiful for this world.

>""""""11/10 wife"""""" is literally clone of woman who created backwater voodoo ritual

I've only watched Zero did I blow it?

Blow what?

No. The anime just does that for dramatic effect. It's the same thing with Excalibur.
In the VN Excalibur takes less than a second to fire and Ea can be charged up enough to intercept and overpower it during that time.

No, the sequel takes time a few years later and many things make more sense if you watched Zero. When they talk about Rin's father or the church and you know all about it, it's cooler than if you didn't.

If you want to read/watch FSN then yea, kind of i guess. F/Z has spoilers for some important stuff in Heaven's Feel (the last route of FSN) and i think it would be hard for you to understand the "All the World's Evil" episode in F/Z if you didn't know about HF before. But overall it's still fine though.

For every faggot here who would summon a strong servant in a grail war, you're all wrong. None of you would have the capacity to even get out their noble phantasms.
The only real move is to summon a normalfag servant like Mata Hari, Li Shuwen or an author-type.

Nah bro, screw Noble Phantasms. I'll go out by just having the servant exist.

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If it wasn't for Kirei, Tohsaka could have won and accessed the akashik records, just as planned.

How did kotomine come back to life at the end

ITT: Scenes women will never understand.

>His servant isn't a mana battery by themself.

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Wait wut? Where's THAT from?

Don't he need cast time when using the anti world? He doesn't need to yell shit when using it as a beam weapon.

>Fate/Zero
In hindsight, this was terrible and a waste of time

he bitched out in the last seconed and paid the price.

In actual war, youd kill anyone who has attempted to kill you, regardless of how and when they did it.

Where did you get that, user ? Also im pretty sure that statement is false though