Was Gohan vs Cell the sorriest excuse for an arc finale fight in shounen history?

It was great.

So you don't care about good action in an action series then?

Why?

Cell was an evil dick that got off on terror, Gohan was the only one strong enough to stop him

>animefag

Because he lives in the world, doofus. Where would Gohan live if Cell destroyed it?

...

>Trunks dying and Vegeta cleaning up the mess he made
>Goku admitting he kind of fucked up
>16’s very bleak and violent death
>The transformation itself is a culmination of Gohan’s ragebabby bouts and the anime in particular did a pretty incredible job with it
>The visual of the father-son kamehameha and how that communicates the passing of the torch for the audience
Again when you examine the whys and hows the story falls apart but Toriyama’s greatest strength was always striking visuals communicated clearly.

Yeah ok.

Said no one intelligent.

Yes

Truth.

Not those other anons but fair enough. I wonder if some of the hate of it is retroactive: Gohan had finally awakened to his father's half of his instincts, joined up with him as an equal/surpassed him (and the other older generation), quickly had to suffer and go through a resulting childish new-to-superpower phase ("I can do anything now, nobody can stop me, I can retardedly indulge the enemy"), etc etc. But the problem is that the follow up arc promptly has Gohan give up on all that and he turns into a mama's boy bitch, lets himself slack off and in turn isn't center stage when the next world threat shows up. If instead Gohan had turned into a somewhat more balanced less sad but still awesome and more powerful version of the badass we see in Trunks' future, it'd have felt like his moments there were more meaningful. Instead it feels like it was executed so-so, but then worse went fucking nowhere.

>that “5 minutes” shit.
That was the best part though

Nah, the Buu arc's issues have nothing to do with people seeing the Cell arc's issues. There's no excusing shit like the whole Gohan vs Cell fight being 3 punches/kicks and a Kamehameha blast.

If the fight choreography is nonexistent, then what value does Gohan vs Cell have?

Yet he was a pussy about it till Cell Jrs and 16.

>Nah, the Buu arc's issues have nothing to do with people seeing the Cell arc's issues. There's no excusing shit like the whole Gohan vs Cell fight being 3 punches/kicks and a Kamehameha blast.
>If the fight choreography is nonexistent, then what value does Gohan vs Cell have?
My point isn't that it's good, it's that there are other sorry fights in the series that are more forgivable because they're seen as starting points to more awesome stuff later. Context does add flavor, if the Gohan vs Cell thing marked genuine permanent growth for Gohan into a badass who would take center stage going forward then I think people would still think of it as a mediocre fight, but it'd be meaningful too. Instead it's not only poorly executed, it all just gets wiped away right afterwards! It might as well have not gone that way at all. That adds to the salt.

do people seriously not like this fight?

It wasn't even a "fight". They were barely any exchanges or meaningful dialogue between Gohan a Cell. Just Kamehameha spam. This user brings up a decent point though

I fucking hate the Cell saga because nothing happens organically, everyone suddenly acts top tier retarded. Be it the villains or the heroes, everything that happens between them seems to depend on stupid plot devices, asspulls or characters giving handouts/dropping the ball.

>Vegeta allowing Cell to transform
>Krilling not activating the remote for Android 18 because he wanted pussy
>Goku not stopping villains because he conveniently had a heart virus (the heart virus thing is is really stupid as hell)
>Gohan not killing Cell outright giving him the chance to kill Goku and Trunks
>Goku giving Cell a senzu bean
>Goku not training harder and trusting his retard son to save the world despite having a hyperbolic time chamber
>Gohan suddenly cares about Android 16
>Piccolo "tricking" Cell into holding a retarded bond villain tier monologue to regenerate
>not telling 16 the bomb was removed from his body
>now characters can suddenly have years of progress by staying in the hyperbolic time chamber

Everything that happened just felt so forced and stupid

I feel like I'm picking on a special needs kid with this, but no.

Attached: Fairy Tail.gif (600x800, 1.13M)

He was nervous, sure, but can you really blame him? Unless you think he was being a pacifist which was is just wrong.

I would love for you to explain the appeal of a "fight" that consists only of 3 or 4 punches and a Kamehameha blast.

>nothing happens organically, everyone suddenly acts top tier retarded.

Everyone's moment of character stupidity was organic and very within character, though. Vegeta only cared about getting a good fight, Krillin always wanted a girlfriend and #18 was the first girl on-screen to show interest in him, Goku always cares about having a fair fight, and the SSJ2 transformation heightened Gohan's Saiyan instincts and made him more cruel and ruthless.

The only really stupid moment was when Cell forgot Piccolo could rip his arm off and regenerate. There's really no excusing that.

dunno man that one was so fucking bad that it almost became hilarious again. SO BAD HOW DID HE DO IT.

I hated the finale but I can't agree with you on most of this list user, at least not in the context of DBZ. Vegeta's arrogance and lust for battle was a core part of his character from the start, it took a very long time for him to ever move beyond that. It's one of the only real "alien" aspects about him really, the battle-above-all in ways that make no fucking sense. Goku too in many ways, for all his growing up amongst humans he's not human and that does come out once in a while.

Krillin was dumb yeah, so was the Android 16 stuff.

Si

I don't think anybody past the age of 13 likes Gohan vs Cell.

He was when he talked to Cell saying he didn't want to kill him.

It doesn't at all match any of the buildup of the arc so yeah. Like the fight itself is fine but this is an arc where gohan has wholly not been a part of it. He has no stakes in this fight or relationship to the villain.

Not wanting to kill =/= refusing to kill. Besides, Gohan's whole speech there was meant to serve as a passive threat to Cell.

>the fight itself is fine

Attached: Lion King.gif (214x115, 59K)

sure, I guess, but bad is bad.

This isn't exactly uncommon in anime though. The fight itself is shit because there's no fight, but the match is still epic because of the characters and. Setting and story etc.. Just like Gon vs Pitou or Ichigo vs Aizen which are fan favorites even though they are one sided.

In summary we were sadist teens and Gohan stomping Cell like an ant was memorable. When Goku went SSJ Frieza was still putting up a fight. Here Gohan hits him so hard he devolves. Anti climatic but still nice.

Shit

Right, what made it work to some extent was everything that built up to it. Cell and all his shit, seeing him knocked backwards through the series was satisfying as a teen, the final father son thing wasn't bad either. Fight was worthless but seeing the long awaited moment Gohan stopped being quite such a bitch was good.

Bump

>Gohan stopped being quite such a bitch was good.

He stopped being a bitch since Namek.

It would have been perfect if the series ended right after.

>Ending with a shit ending and fight.
No.

>Gohan is a pacifist for no reason
>Goku starts acting on his retarded "next generation" mindset for absolutely no reason
>shit choreography
>resurrection/zenkai asspull
It was the worst thing to come out of db until the series end.

>>Gohan is a pacifist for no reason

At no point was Gohan a pacifist.

Fuck no

>Yusuke vs Sensui
>Ichigo vs yhwach
>Tsuna vs bermuda
>Oga/beelzeub vs Fuji/satan
>Everything in Fairytail

Cell didn't know about regeneration in the first place because he never needed it, as he only attacked people leagues under him.

What the fuck are you talking about? Gohan doesn't want to fight Cell, even when the Cell Jrs are wailing on his friends he doesn't do anything besides ask Cell to stop. How is that not pacifist? The entire first part of the "fight" is Cell trying to goad Gohan into actually fighting him.
Does Gohan even hit Cell one single time before he goes SSJ2?

You either haven't watched it in a long time or at all to begin with.

>even when the Cell Jrs are wailing on his friends he doesn't do anything besides ask Cell to stop

We see him trying to bring out his hidden power because that's the whole reason Cell's even doing this in the first place. What did you think he was doing when it looked like he was trying to power up, taking a shit?

>The entire first part of the "fight" is Cell trying to goad Gohan into actually fighting him.

No, Cell's trying to get Gohan angry so that his true power is brought out. Cell wants to fight Gohan at his strongest due to his Saiyan cells.

>Does Gohan even hit Cell one single time before he goes SSJ2?

Yes. He kicks him square in the face shortly after he tells him about his hidden power, and he also lunges at Cell when he threatens to involve Gohan's friends.

I've read this particular part in the manga more times than most people. I know when people say something that isn't actually true about Gohan here. Hell, the DBZ fanbase in general has a problem with not researching things for themselves and instead just repeat what other people tell them.

>in the manga
lmao no one gives a shit about that crap we're talking the anime here

My arguments still hold regardless if we're talking about the anime or manga.

He powers up so he doesn't die against Cell. Cell makes the first move and Gohan just defends. He spends most of his time as SSJ1 defending while asking him several times to stop the fighting, as if Cell's just going to be talked out of it. He flat out says he doesn't want to fight and doesn't enjoy fighting. He wants the entire thing resolved without fighting.

>in the manga
>not researching things for themselves
The second I pull up a clip of Gohan being a whiny bitch, you'll just say it didn't happen in the manga so show me YOUR evidence that proves it was changed.

no. it was one of the better ones, at least better than buu. it should have been the beginning of gohan taking over as main, but fans wouldn't let goku take a backseat and screwed up the rest of the series and character.

>He powers up so he doesn't die against Cell. Cell makes the first move and Gohan just defends.

I'm talking about when he looks like he's powering up during the Cell Jrs. beating down on his friends, not when he first starts fighting Cell.

>He spends most of his time as SSJ1 defending

He defends because he's cautious. He's cautious because he's nervous, and understandably so.

> while asking him several times to stop the fighting, as if Cell's just going to be talked out of it. He flat out says he doesn't want to fight and doesn't enjoy fighting. He wants the entire thing resolved without fighting.

Of course Gohan doesn't "want" to fight Cell. He doesn't "want" to fight any life or death battles because he seeks no thrill in it like Cell or Goku do. Notice when he says he doesn't like fighting, he says "I don't like to fight...like Dad does." He means that he seeks no personal enjoyment out of fighting life-threatening battles.

Secondly, his whole speech to Cell was meant to intimidate to him into backing down. He says he doesn't want to kill Cell despite how awful he is. Cell then asks him if he just threatened to kill him, and that's when Gohan tells him about his hidden power. Then Cell tells Gohan that his little plan of trying to intimidate Cell failed. This is meant to convey that Gohan was trying to make Cell believe that the outcome of this fight would be inevitable. As for why he's doing so? Because he just realized that the thing Goku is hoping for, Gohan's hidden power, is something that's beyond his control. Because of that, he tries to use words and admittedly timid threats to get Cell to back off because he doesn't know how to bring out his power.

>so show me YOUR evidence that proves it was changed.

Sure, if you know of a good place that keeps manga scans, I'd be more than happy to post them for you.

Go back to your containment thread

>if you know of a good place that keeps manga scans
You're the one who claimed Gohan acted differently so it's on you to back it up.

I wouldn't call it anti-climatic. If anything was and probably is still rewarding for people because seeing what happens to Cell is both psychologically and mentally traumitizing for the villain. His entire purpose up to the Cell Games was survival so he could gain his Perfect Form and power. And look what happens? He travels back to the past into another timeline, bides his time, absorbs #17 and #18, humiliates the Z-Fighters repeatedly, beats Vegeta, Future Trunks, Goku, and Piccolo only to lose everything he was obsessed with in a handful of punches from a child who doesn't come up to his waist in height. Half the time up to that point, Cell was surviving by being a coward or manipulating people like with Piccolo and Vegeta.

It was pretty gratifying to see how short and brutal his 'fight' with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was after he blew off Gohan's constant warnings and threats of what would happen. Hell if Gohan really wanted to, he could potentially beat Perfect Cell in his normal Super Saiyan state if his instincts were like Goku's.

Attached: Dragon Ball Z v18-108.jpg (2037x3056, 1.49M)

I've searched, but all I can find are shitty fan-translation scans. I want to post Viz ones like did.

>Hell if Gohan really wanted to, he could potentially beat Perfect Cell in his normal Super Saiyan state if his instincts were like Goku's.

I doubt that. If that was the case, then Goku wouldn't have been banking on Gohan's hidden power so much. It's pretty iffy on whether or not SSJ Gohan is stronger than Goku at this point, but if he is, it must not be by much.

Honestly, I did too out of curiosity many times with no results. It's one thing to debate and argue about interpretation, but without anything concrete to back up your perspective, what else is reliable enough to go off of but the sub?

>nothing in super came close to this cinematography
>www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjMieoMEGc4

Attached: 1542048319096.jpg (244x320, 26K)

The fact that you're right combined with how lackluster this is in the first place shows just how shitty Super really is.

oh completely agree. Like imagine if the old team had super's budget and technology

>this was animated 27 years ago

Attached: 1550943853472.png (616x616, 405K)

I'm saying the scene you posted wasn't very good to begin with, but a lot of that can be blamed on all the filler injected.

Gohan's full power as a normal Super Saiyan was already as great if not slightly greater then Goku's. This is further highlighted by Gohan having zero issue following Goku and Cell's fight while everyone else including Piccolo, Future Trunks, and Vegeta struggling to keep up with what was going on due to how fast Cell and Goku were.

That's basically what I'm saying - Gohan's either as strong as Goku, or he's slightly stronger, but not strong enough to beat Cell without his hidden power.

I still just dislike how Vegeta shot Cell in the back so Gohan could over power him while he was stunned. I would have been fine with Gohan just beating Cell but Vegeta's interface kinda made that last beam struggle feel cheap.

Too one sided and boring.

Really? I thought it was a nice redemption moment for Vegeta and a good way for him to avenge Trunks.

Well I see what you mean. I guess I just felt his blind rush against a now unstoppable Cell showed he did care. That and his apology to Gohan showed he really did realize how badly he messed up. Those two things were I felt enough to show growth and that he learned something.

Isn't the assumption that all of his copied abilities were just programmed into him? How else would he know how to do a kamehameha when presumably before that fight with Piccolo he had never seen someone do it?

And if that knowledge WAS programmed into him by Doctor Gero, why the fuck would he not have also programmed the knowledge that Piccolo (and therefore also Cell) can regenerate limbs?

Cell just forgot that Piccolo could rip his own arm off. I didn't remember that back when I first read it since Piccolo hadn't done it in a while, so Cell forgetting makes sense too.

Attached: 1498313375116.jpg (782x1016, 186K)

Hey, I was the one who made that picture awhile back for the lulz. Thanks for reminding me of it, user.

To clarify though, it's not that Gohan was too scared to do anything against the Cell Jrs. He knew that unleashing his hidden power was his only real hope of saving everybody, so he's trying to unleash it by using the anger that's building up inside of him. People tend to forget this though and just assume he stood there like an idiot doing nothing at all.

Pic related, you can see Gohan trying to bring out his power here. Sorry for the shitty fan-scan, but it's all I could find.

Attached: awrwwq.jpg (800x1210, 208K)

>memecrunch

>He knew that unleashing his hidden power was his only real hope of saving everybody, so he's trying to unleash it by using the anger that's building up inside of him.
You're just assuming all that from his shivering. I can just as easily say he's scared half to death of the pressure put on him and the inner conflict of choosing to do nothing or help the others is making him like that.

>You're just assuming all that from his shivering.

There's also the fact that Gohan literally thinks to himself in a page earlier about how he needs to unleash his power if he wants to save his friends. Plus, Cell himself is acknowledging that Gohan's strength is rising, so obviously Gohan's not just standing there being scared,

Attached: agid.jpg (800x1217, 184K)

No you are thinking Goku vs Jiren which is only like that because everything is before it complete utter shit.

In the final panel on that page he literally seems even more scared that he won't be able to help his friends. This page undercuts your point even more. He's not trying to bring out his power, he's panicking that he can't.

Again, if all Gohan was doing was just panicking, his power wouldn't be rising. In the scan I posted on does that really look like Gohan's just panicking to you? His face look serious and determined, not scared and panicked. It fits Gohan's character more for him to attempt to save his friends, which is what he's trying to do by bringing out his power.

>memecrunch.com

Jiren is also probably the shittiest big bad in any story between the original series, GT, and Super. Such a fucking incredibly bland and boring antagonist.

Gohan is conflicted, that much is obvious. Like I said, he's scared of what's happening but still wants to help and that still fits everything you've said and shown. The doubt where that fear comes from doesn't make any sense though which is the problem.

>The doubt where that fear comes from doesn't make any sense though which is the problem.

He isn't doubting himself though, he knows what he has to do. He isn't sure of how exactly to bring out his power, but he's trying anyway. He isn't holding himself back through doubt, he's trying his hardest to unleash his power.

>he knows what he has to do.
He has doubts about whether or not he can do it at the end of the day.
>He isn't sure of how exactly to bring out his power, but he's trying anyway.
That doesn't mean there's no fear or doubt involved.
>He isn't holding himself back through doubt, he's trying his hardest to unleash his power.
He would be able to exert himself effortlessly if he didn't have subconscious blocks which all came from personal doubt.

>He has doubts about whether or not he can do it at the end of the day.

What doubts? The closest thing to "doubt" is him saying that he doesn't know how to bring out and control his hidden power at will, which is just him stating a fact. He's trying to overcome this issue by attempting to manually bring it out himself. There is no doubt holding him back or preventing him from trying.

>That doesn't mean there's no fear or doubt involved.

Even if there's fear or doubt involved, it's clearly not stopping him from trying to save his friends. He wouldn't be trying to power himself up if he was letting doubt stop him.

>He would be able to exert himself effortlessly if he didn't have subconscious blocks which all came from personal doubt.

Doubts and fear had nothing to do with Gohan being incapable of fully letting loose. He didn't explode because he wasn't angry enough. The Cell Jrs. beating down on his friends was helping him to get started, but he needed something more extreme to really push him over the edge. That of course, was 16's death.

>The closest thing to "doubt" is him saying that he doesn't know how to bring out and control his hidden power at will, which is just him stating a fact.
He regerets putting everyone in a near death situation and is scared of losing them. He's scared of being too powerless to stop what's happening in front of his eyes making him desperate for that power.
>There is no doubt holding him back or preventing him from trying.
>it's clearly not stopping him from trying to save his friends.
If that were true, he'd fight as hard as he could right then and there instead of being frozen like that.
>He wouldn't be trying to power himself up if he was letting doubt stop him.
That's why I'm saying he's conflicted.
>Doubts and fear had nothing to do with Gohan being incapable of fully letting loose.
Gohan was always limited by his fear and inaction. Piccolo had to throw him into a mountain just to make him man up and Gohan still didn't even remember what happened. That's the definition of a mental block.

>He regerets putting everyone in a near death situation and is scared of losing them. He's scared of being too powerless to stop what's happening in front of his eyes making him desperate for that power.

Gohan's scared of losing his friends, yes, but that's clearly not stopping him from trying to unleash his power. He has every intention of trying to save them, and there's no indication that he's too busy doubting himself to actually try and find a way to save his friends.

>If that were true, he'd fight as hard as he could right then and there instead of being frozen like that.

Again, Gohan isn't just standing there with his thumb up his butt. He's trying to let loose. Trying to fight as he was would be pointless because it was blatantly obvious Gohan couldn't possibly save everyone by just rushing in this time. Unleashing his power was his best hope, and he knew that.

>That's why I'm saying he's conflicted.
No he isn't. There's no mental battle with himself taking place, his mind is on a straight track. He's not arguing with himself over whether he should try unleashing his power or not, he's already made up his mind that that's what he needs to do.

>Gohan was always limited by his fear and inaction. Piccolo had to throw him into a mountain just to make him man up and Gohan still didn't even remember what happened. That's the definition of a mental block.

Gohan was only limited by his fear in the early Saiyan arc, and obviously so considering it was his first time fighting. By the time Namek rolls around, Gohan never lets fear stop him from saving his friends or taking action. That was the whole point of his character arc in the Saiyan arc.

>Trying to fight as he was would be pointless because it was blatantly obvious Gohan couldn't possibly save everyone by just rushing in this time.
If he were wholehearted in making his power come out, he would have forced himself into that hopeless situation just like Piccolo did to him and he did to Freeza. His power always came out in response to action up to that point. Here, he's hesitant so it's harder for him.
>he's already made up his mind that that's what he needs to do.
The conflict is subconscious, his lack of action speaks volumes for this.
>By the time Namek rolls around, Gohan never lets fear stop him from saving his friends or taking action.
Exactly, he took action on Namek and got the power boost when he attacked unlike during his transformation which took much longer due to his subconscious blocks.

nyaa.si/view/932817

>If he were wholehearted in making his power come out, he would have forced himself into that hopeless situation just like Piccolo did to him and he did to Freeza. His power always came out in response to action up to that point. Here, he's hesitant so it's harder for him.

Forcing himself to fight means that he wouldn't be able to focus on unleashing his power. Gohan wasn't simply trying to get mad, he was trying to use his anger to force out and control his hidden power. The reason Gohan was able to transform with this rageboost was because he was making a conscious effort to bring it out and control it. That's also why he didn't lose his power from the rage after a few seconds like in the past. Before 16's death, Gohan didn't have enough rage to bring out his power because nothing that extreme had happened yet. It had nothing to do with hesitation or doubt.

>The conflict is subconscious, his lack of action speaks volumes for this.

The conflict is nonexistent. Him trying to bring out his power is him taking action.

>Exactly, he took action on Namek and got the power boost when he attacked unlike during his transformation which took much longer due to his subconscious blocks.

It took longer because what angered Gohan was a slow and gradual process this time. The more he saw his friends getting tortured, the angrier he got. He didn't immediately snap because despite the torture, his friends also didn't sustain any critical injuries to really make Gohan angry. It was just your typical punching and kicking. The worst it ever got was when Yamcha got his wrist broken, and obviously Gohan wouldn't go berserk over that. Compare that to something like Freeza immediately stabbing Krillin and throwing him in the ocean to drown, and it's obvious why Gohan reacted more angry sooner. It had nothing to do with any "subconscious blocks."

Thanks.

>Forcing himself to fight means that he wouldn't be able to focus on unleashing his power.
Forcing himself to fight only worked to his benefit before so there's no reason it wouldn't here. What you've said is practically headcanon.
>The reason Gohan was able to transform with this rageboost was because he was making a conscious effort to bring it out and control it.
That doesn't make sense considering 16 told Gohan to "let go" and doing that unleashed his power. Rushing into a fight is literally letting go of all the inhibitions he had up to that point yet he chooses to stand there and bottle up his feelings.
>That's also why he didn't lose his power from the rage after a few seconds like in the past.
Again, that's practically headcanon. If anything, the reason he can control it is because that was the goal of his training with Goku.
>The conflict is nonexistent.
Again, if there's no conflict, there's no reason for Gohan not to act. It's counter intuitive to bringing out his power.
>It took longer because what angered Gohan was a slow and gradual process this time.
But Gohan didn't care how much stronger Freeza was. He let that stop him with the Cell Jrs on the other hand though. If he had no conflict, the thought that he was too weak wouldn't even have crossed his mind to begin with.

I'm getting tired so I'll just say this: for everything you bring up, I can just as easily counter with something else. None of this is stated outright one way or the other anywhere so it's just interpretation. Just as I can't prove beyond the shadow of a doubt the conflict is there, you can't prove it's absent so accept that it's a difference in perspective/opinion and nothing more.

...what?
It's literally the pinnacle of shounen fights and I've read all the shounen that are regularly talked about. How on earth can this conclusion be formed?
Do you guys not understand the thematic importance of that fight not for DBZ, but for life in general?

>How on earth can this conclusion be formed?
Read the thread idiot.

You haven't seen / read Bleach have you.

>Forcing himself to fight only worked to his benefit before so there's no reason it wouldn't here. What you've said is practically headcanon.

Forcing himself to fight never had any bearing on whether his power unleashed or not.His rage boost is tied to his emotions, not whether he fights or not. Either he got mad enough to get a rage boost, or he didn't. That's always been how it works. There's nothing "headcanon" about that.

>That doesn't make sense considering 16 told Gohan to "let go" and doing that unleashed his power. Rushing into a fight is literally letting go of all the inhibitions he had up to that point yet he chooses to stand there and bottle up his feelings.

16's death unleashed the power, not him just telling Gohan to let go. 16's death was the straw that broke the camel's back and is what made Gohan angry enough to get a rage boost. How is Gohan "bottling up" his feelings when he's directly using his anger to try and power up?

>Again, that's practically headcanon. If anything, the reason he can control it is because that was the goal of his training with Goku.

Goku trained him to be able to be more natural with his Super Saiyan state. He never said anything about controlling Gohan's hidden power.

>Again, if there's no conflict, there's no reason for Gohan not to act. It's counter intuitive to bringing out his power.

Conflict isn't what's making Gohan not rush in, common sense is. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Gohan wouldn't be able to save everybody in his current state. Not only that, but the entire reason for what was happening was Cell trying to get Gohan to unleash his power. Gohan is aware of this, and that's why he focuses on it - because that's the whole point. If this had nothing to do with Gohan's hidden power, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. But as it stands, Gohan had another option other than just rushing in, and he took it because it was the more sensible option.

>But Gohan didn't care how much stronger Freeza was. He let that stop him with the Cell Jrs on the other hand though. If he had no conflict, the thought that he was too weak wouldn't even have crossed his mind to begin with.

What conflict is there in Gohan realizing that he's not strong enough to save everyone with his current power? He's not struggling with that idea, he accepts it and focuses on a different method. With Freeza, Gohan's hidden power was never relevant to anything going on, so he had no other option than to just attack. With the Cell Jrs, his hidden power is more than relevant and an obviously more sensible option to focus on.

I honestly have no idea where you're getting this whole mental conflict and doubt thing, but agree to disagree.

Attached: 1544924822917.png (625x626, 16K)

>What conflict is there in Gohan realizing that he's not strong enough to save everyone with his current power?
His acceptance of that idea directly contradicts his desire to save them.
>Gohan's hidden power was never relevant to anything going on
How? His hidden power was a part of him just like with the Saiyan arc. Both Vegeta and Freeza realized this as well.
>he had no other option than to just attack. With the Cell Jrs, his hidden power is more than relevant and an obviously more sensible option to focus on.
The scenario isn't any different just because he's more self aware later on. If anything, that self awareness is a part of what makes him hesitant.

>I honestly have no idea where you're getting this whole mental conflict and doubt thing
And I have no idea how you can't see it, it's not as if I'm the only one who thinks this way either. My problem isn't so much with that, but how you're trying to pass off your opinion as objective fact when you're making way too many assumptions. Don't try to claim his mindset is a certain way when Gohan didn't even understand himself unless Toriyama has explicitly stated something on the matter.

>His acceptance of that idea directly contradicts his desire to save them.

How? Him realizing this doesn't make him not want to try at all, it simply makes him change his course of action. Where is the conflict at?

>How? His hidden power was a part of him just like with the Saiyan arc. Both Vegeta and Freeza realized this as well.

Vegeta or Freeza never orchestrated any sort of event with the explicit goal of trying to get Gohan to unleash his power. That's what I mean by his hidden power not being relevant. The villains before Cell never cared about forcing it out of Gohan, so why would Gohan care about it then?

>The scenario isn't any different just because he's more self aware later on. If anything, that self awareness is a part of what makes him hesitant.

The scenario is different precisely because of the context of the situation. Gohan'd hidden power is the focus, hence why he focused on it. Him knowing he wasn't strong enough to save everyone didn't cause him to hesitate in trying to save his friends, it simply caused him to pick a different method.

>And I have no idea how you can't see it

I don't see it because the manga never tries to pass this off as what's really going on.

>My problem isn't so much with that, but how you're trying to pass off your opinion as objective fact when you're making way too many assumptions.

I never said my opinion was objective fact, but what IS objective is what's directly in the manga. Sure, you might need to use logic to fill in some things that were never explicitly said, but that's a given with storytelling because there's always going to be some things that aren't spoonfed to the audience.

>Don't try to claim his mindset is a certain way when Gohan didn't even understand himself

What about himself did Gohan not understand?

Anyways, this will be my last post for the morning. I need some sleep.

>it simply makes him change his course of action. Where is the conflict at?
It's in the fact that he's trying to get angry. Despite everything that's happening around him, he still isn't resolved to fight through his anger alone. Emotions don't work like a switch, Gohan's conflict was in trying to let go the way both Goku and 16 said.
>The villains before Cell never cared about forcing it out of Gohan, so why would Gohan care about it then?
Because of the immense difference in power between him and the enemy and the fact that the Grand Elder unlocked some of it already. His power isn't absent just because it isn't a central plot point.
>it simply caused him to pick a different method.
The only method to do anything is to fight, 16 told him to fight and he powered up once he accepted that.
>the manga never tries to pass this off as what's really going on.
>what IS objective is what's directly in the manga
It does through his actions, actions always speak much more about a character than words.
>What about himself did Gohan not understand?
He didn't understand that his anger was directly tied to his power or lack thereof and struggled desperately to unify his thoughts and feelings.

>you might need to use logic to fill in some things that were never explicitly said
That is my entire point, my logic is based on what Gohan felt and did, while yours is what he said in his head. Neither way is 100% true, but both are based on what is portrayed in one way or another.