Could anyone please explain to me what the fuck did I just watch? The plot premise is "Vash has been insisting on being a pacifist moron for 100+ years because that works so well on a violence-ridden lawless planet, then keeps doing exactly that for the entire show despite people dying all around him because of his stubborness", his personal conflict never got resolved, the ending was a big fucking nothing, the humor is barely funny, and the show itself starts getting interesting only at episode 15 or so. Why the cult-like stasus, is it only because it was well-animated and widely marketed back when it came out? I really want to understand why people like it so much, but from my perspective, I was promised another Cowboy Bebop but all I got was another Darling in the Franxx. Like, the ending was so bad I'm legitimately depressed now, what a huge waste of time this show was.
Could anyone please explain to me what the fuck did I just watch...
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Read thee manga
>17 manga volumes
>26 episode "adaptation" that ended 9 years before the manga did
Do I read it from the beginning or I can just start where the anime left off?
The anime isn't something that adapts part of the manga and cuts off at a certain point. You're better off starting from the beginning.
the anime ending is better
don't expect the manga to make anymore sense to this brainlet of an OP
Thanks
It's Vash doesn't want to kill one of the kids of the pople his foster mom and love of his life died for. He also really believes that everyone deserves another chance at any time in their life and killing someone would take that potential future from them.
A little bit like Jesus.
I mean, that part I could understand because I'm actually of the same opinion and value human life a lot, but after so much people have died because Vash hesitated, I really dont understand the motivation. Like, it's one dead criminal or several dead people, do the math. Or use the non-lethal bullets which you have used once on that runaway kid and conveniently forgot about them for the rest of the show.
His personal conflict can't be resolved because the source of that conflict is his conviction to uphold a noble ideal in an ignoble world. The only resolution for Vash is to go on watching others die until he dies. Even if he gave up on pacifism, he'd still be stuck with that fate due to his inhuman lifespan. There really isn't a singularly positive message or a neat and tidy conclusion to be had. People will just go on living and dying, sometimes at the hands of others. Vash represents the absolute tragedy of striving for peace when violence is an inevitability. That isn't to say that the series is pessimistic or nihilistic, as it is important to note that Milly ends up carrying the seed of new life just as the events of the story are the result of humanity starting a new life on that planet.
except Jesus does not excuse murderers from being punished, Vash was brainwashed by that pacisfist bitch.
it's because it's about trying to end the cycle of violence and not letting the killing keep going
that criminal might have people that need him
he might have people that will avenge him
the 'do the math' thinking is already how people think and its why the killing never stops
vash a idiot
It never stops IRL because people are more or less on equal grounds with each other. Vash, however, could kill practically unlimited amount of bandits and keep doing that for centuries. There's already the case where a farmer grew a lush grove out of a single tree, and there's no mention of starvation or poverty in the show. I mean, it surely exists, but the way things are shown, it must be a pretty rare case to turn to banditry out of poverty. Maybe in manga things are different, but in anime, the impression is that criminals could easily make a living doing honest work, they just want to have it easy. Vash going planet-wide sheriff could easily fix that, which is why things look so moronic to me.
Being a criminal is easy. no risk, no hesitation, decisions come naturally without regret. do it for as long as you want. way easier than the most basic of honest career opportunities in a society with needs. gg
they make it very clear that the farmer is a special case and that most of gunsmoke is really fucked, there is poverty, lack of water and poor living conditions everywhere
and the and the constant turmoil is creating more bandits and desperate people
vash just going round killing criminals would do nothing
Yeah, which is why Vash going punisher would really help things. Honestly, the most disappointing thing about the ending is that after Vash killing Legato I thought he'd go full Punished Vash, A Hero Denied His Principles, but he doubled down on being a pacifist. Like, what's the logic? Why does he never change? That is even aside from the fact that he'd been at it for 100+ years and never changed. I literally can't wrap my head around this, how does this even remotely make sense?
Try not to drop it while reading the first two volumes, the art, paneling and everything is confusing as fuck but it'll get better as soon as you reach Maximum, that's where the story really starts, too.
I reread the entire thing a few years ago and I feel like everything was much clearer, so it might just be an issue of getting used to the style.
I guess for Vash it's not one dead criminal but one dead child that was angry and hurt at the moment but might still have changed, might have become a great father, etc. Also killing anyone could cause others to become angry and hurt as well. He just usually sees the absolute best in people and is able to forgive everyone everything.
And yet he can't forgive himself, for the things that happen that he could have prevented (yeah, he knows he's an idiot), for the destruction that follows him and expecially for the deaths he caused directly.
Well, he has no problem with throwing them into prison, he just don't want to kill.
I don't know much about the bible, it's just that I think the overall motive is similar, so while in christianity it might be 'repent and be forgiven', Vash seems to take this to extremes and doesn't even want to rob people of their chance to repent.
What would be the point then? If Vash just killed infinite bandits to save people, he'd be a generic action hero whose "peace" is a total sham and not applicable to our real world situation at all. You are supposed to empathize with Vash because his mission is just as impossible as it would be to end violence in real life. We don't have the option of just blowing away every bad guy with a big gun, so Vash isn't given that option either. In our case it is a practical limitation, Vash is limited by his morals to make him relatable to us. Technically you could go out and start wasting the criminals in your town in order to prevent them from killing others, but that obviously isn't realistic.
>Yeah, which is why Vash going punisher would really help things
ok you are shoot retarded and don't understand humans on a fundamental level
>Like, what's the logic? Why does he never change?
because he believes in forgiving people and getting them to live better lives instead of just taking them
he has seen the good and empathy in people and fight with all his strength to find that in everyone
>I really want to understand why people like it so much
The anime? Mostly the great OST, the comedy, the cool setting and Legato I guess.
The manga? I don't know about others but its one of the very few things that managed to make me cry and I believe it healed my soul.
I don't know man, the anime changed or left out some things that made me love the manga so I'm not suprised if people can't take much from it if they're not into the comedy bits. My favourite parts about the anime were the filler and the dub for fucks sake.
and it's still better
>changed
The anime finished before the manga was even halfway through, so more likely than not, your favorite moments weren't even "changed" so much as they were made well after the anime aired already.
The anime final battle was better but the actual ending was better in the manga. Gave a better resolution to Knives.
Seems like the author gave the anime team some kind of outline of the story he wants to write, I wonder if he didn't give all the details to not spoiler the manga readers or just hadn't made them up yet.
the manga follows pretty much the same path. just way longer for no reason
How many live could vash have saved if he had killed? There is never a situation were not killing leads to further killing except with legato I believe and maybe in the manga.
If Vash wasn't a pacifist saving all plants from being drained by humanity and letting all humans die would make the most sense.
Yeah, but that was basically the whole reason for the spider and butterfly thing. Rem taught Vash to value every life rather than choosing some life over others. You can try to apply "math" to the number of lives that could be saved by killing a particular violent individual, but killing that individual is still wrong, according to the view being represented.
Speaking of plants what happened with the female plants that come from earth? Did they just vanish like the vampires in gantz?
What exactly do you mean? They die when their energy runs out.
Weren't there 2 plants from earth send to deal with knives in the manga? I vaguely remember them being dropped near the ending and never getting any closure on their main revenge. Something like firing a canon to wipe out knives and the planet with it.
Oh, I barely remember. Didn't Knives dig into their powers, too?
By this point knives was a superbeing with essentially a whole SEEDS ship worth of plants he'd fused with. Two plants weren't going to be stopping him, though I honestly don't remember their significance otherwise
Sometimes I wish they'd make a new anime so we could have fun threads and shitposting.
How do you interpret the last line in the show about him deciding to "look to [his] own words for guidance" instead of blindly following Rem's ideal? Since he spared Knives he must still believe in the extreme pacifism he was already practicing, so what is there that might change as a result of his decision?
He might start putting a nigga down now with less hesitation, if the good outweights death he'd cause.
He was too blindly following Rem's ideals, and it almost cost him everything. He's become more realistic. He'll still probably try to save people when he can, though. But he's probably more prone to dealing with bad apples quicker.
I had a similar reaction in that the show was a massive letdown, but I didn't have a problem with the plot's premise. Just that I've seen it many times before, and the way Trigun presented its themes came off as very boring to me. Vash is literally a budget copy of Kenshin (which finished a year before Trigun), and the entire show is a straight up inferior version of Casshern Sins, if you haven't seen it.
He answers your question best at the end.
>promised another Cowboy Bebop
Whoever promised you that is a fucking retard. The two aren't anything alike.
nah i think he just meant that he's done living someone else's burrowed life and get to spend time with people he cares about exploring himself and deciding on reasons for his ideals himself
Well, in the manga he understood that not everyone who is willing to kill a person if the situation calls for it is taking "the easy way out" like he called it before, but that they're actually making a decision that's harder and lets them suffer as well.
I've seen both, how is Trigun an inferior version of CSins?
Casshern Sins had a great ending.
>None of you fuckers fear death, so I will become death, destroyer of worlds
This
The intended atmosphere of both shows is very similar. The main characters are the same, and the side characters are mostly the same in that they're all trying to find salvation (minus the useless side characters in Trigun). Casshern Sins executes much, much better though because it doesn't insert constant humor into a show that's meant to take place in a bleak and unforgiving world, on top of many other reasons. The plot of Casshern Sins is also far more original than Trigun.
The two shows were also made by the same studio, btw.
See , specifically
>He was too blindly following Rem's ideals, and it almost cost him everything. He's become more realistic. He'll still probably try to save people when he can, though. But he's probably more prone to dealing with bad apples quicker.
Exactly. I treat it as Vash actually being more realistic about his ideals than being completely beholden to it to the point of agonizing over every little mistake he makes.
While I recognize that the anime ending could have elaborated more on their Plant backstory, I thought the message and outcome was very satisfying. His simple line towards Knives ("I will... survive!") is also very cathartic for the very fact that Knives equates survival with taking the life of another, and it makes the line resonate even stronger.
Trigun is supposed to evoke the wild west based on the viewer's familiarity with that setting while Sins imagines a post-apocalyptic world tied loosely to an old IP, though. Maybe they have superficial similarities but the "intended atmosphere" is certainly not the same. Proposing that Sins executes its (themes? you didn't state exactly what here) better because it lacks humour seems to be an inherently unfair comparison anyway because the target audiences for both are different, what with Trigun being a shonen manga primarily for teenagers and Sins being for adults.
Also don't agree that characters having similar goals makes them the same, and I don't strictly recall anyone but the most minor one-off characters in Sins having salvation as their main goal. Ohji wants to protect Ringo, Lyuze wants revenge, Dio and Leda want to prove themselves/rule the world, respectively. Braiking I suppose, but he's only relevant for one episode. Hardly similar when you think about it.
That would make cash superman thus creating Superman's biggest issue
Fair enough. When I said Casshern Sins "executes" better, I mean to say its atmosphere created a much more immersive and emotional setting than Trigun's. It was so damn good it had my neck in a knot almost every episode I watched. You're really right though in that it isn't fair to compare the two series.
An adaptation that faithfully follows TriMax would be fucking ace. Too bad it'll never happen.
A character from some homosexual anime.
The scene where Vash kills Legato is better in the anime than the manga imo
in the manga the explanation for legato's power is fucking retarded
Cool. I felt let down by Trigun when I watched it too, believe me. Every single villain is barely one-dimensional and Legato and Knives aren't much better either (seeing it at the same time that Part 5, with its incredibly written minor villains, is airing I almost felt embarrassed by how poor Trigun's are). So we get this string of like 8 episodes during the middle that's just Vash dealing with these completely uninteresting villains (in addition to his backstory which I felt isn't very good, the characters on the ship + Knives weren't realistic at all) but it pulls itself together for the episode with Wolfwood's death and stays decent enough for the rest. I liked it a lot better when it's just Vash travelling from town to town and dealing with small-scale moral dilemmas with the comedy focus since he's fun to watch.
Trigun is about learning to live with your ideals in an unjust world.
Most of us aren't superhuman pistoleros, and have to temper that with pragmatism. Eventually, so does Vash.
Ending was rushed because the manga goes on for a fucking long time but the anime want getting a second season.
Ending didn't feel as satisfying because Legato the main villian for most of the anime series then knives is just like this one episode "oh we should have a gun fight to finish up".
Trigun has probably the best opening scene and first episode of any anime though.
Vash's pacifism feels so cheap when he's able to do over-the-top maneuvers like shooting down the barrell of a gun. When Vash getting shot point-blank became a comedic gag multiple times throughout the show I just had a hard time feeling any sort of tension when conflict came. This did change in the last third of the series. It was one of those shows I didn't drop because it was a supposed great classic, but really wish I did because the payout of the last 5 episodes was incredibly weak. I also really dislike Wild West inspired shows. Still trying to find something like Casshern Sins though.
To be fair I think it's mentioned at some point that Plants are more resistant than regular humans, and we also see that Vash's body has paid heavily for his ideals (pic related from the recap episode). So even if the show portrays it comedically (again, partially because of the demographic) I wouldn't say it makes light of pacifism. It's a fair point about the lack of tension though.
>Vash's pacifism feels so cheap when he's able to do over-the-top maneuvers
Also that he can stomach an insane amount of damage. Anyway he did learn his lesson the hard way.
Scars more like, missing chunks of flesh damn
Alright, I'll take the bait you shit eating FUCK. Vash has been insisting on being a pacifist because of how much he loved Rem and admired her teachings. She taught him and Knives to appreciate life, and that no one has the right to take it. "But user, you're being a moralfag since it IS necessary to take a life sometimes, like say a murderous rapist if no options are left." Well no fucking shit you empty brained coconut. Vash can actually live up to his title of 'Vash the Stampede', killing anybody with ease, had his switch flipped at any point. Now, we see this in Knives, being the outcome of man's careless abuse, turning him apeshit insane and continuing the cycle of hate. Vash is obviously meant to be his opposite from the get-go, having a more optimistic attitude rather than pessimistic or nihilistic.
>Vash's pacifism feels so cheap btw
Well, as cli-fucking-che it may be, solving a situation without the need of violence will forever be the ideal goal any of us should strive to uphold, or that its even PG-14. That's what Vash attempts, and as points out, his body has suffered heavily to uphold such ideals. Furthermore, he does actually have the ability to regenerate, but he's never done so for the following reasons; because the scars are a reminder of his ideals, it possibly reduces his lifespan(which is speculated and seen by Knives with his hair now a lot more lighter), it makes him feel closer as a 'human' despite what man is doing to his kind.
>all i got was another Darling in the Fraxx
>Vash's pacifism feels so cheap when he's able to do over-the-top maneuvers like shooting down the barrell of a gun.
That's part of the point though. It's mix of this stubborn attitude combined with his borderline arrogance in his abilities that makes the premise work until it's taken apart halfway through. His faith in his abilities to pull through any and all situation is actually tested. His fight with Monev serves to highlight this, wherein Vash even questions Rem as to how people can live in such a horrible place, showing that his belief in sparing lives don't necessarily come from a belief in people so much as he's just upholding what Rem taught him. It hits even harder when Wolfwood does the same only to get killed, which goes to show that what Vash is doing is even only possible because it's Vash himself. This culminates with Legato pushing him to finally pull the trigger which actually forces Vash to develop and move past Rem's teachings to continue living.
The manga is worse than the anime. Nightow has great aesthetics, but he's a mediocre writer. Kuroda is a fantastic writer who always takes Nightow's work and gives it a proper structure. I love Nightow, but Kuroda makes his stuff work.
Has Kuroda done other works as popular as Trigun?
Demonbane, Drifters, Excel Saga, Gungrave, Hellsing Ultimate, Jormungand, Mobile Suit Gundam 00, My Hero Academia, Tenchi Muyo!, and plenty of others.
So I guess just MHA.
Oh damn, I never realized
The whole planet is a near uninhabitable wasteland and the handful of terraforming ships that are still around are largely in disrepair.
There's really no helping you if you insist on dumbing down everything you watch into something stupid. You can do it with literally anything. You're a dumb peasant just accept it and look for good things
The OST really was fucking fantastic.