How does Fate decide which literary characters are real Heroic Spirits and which are fake phantom spirits?

You think Agatha Christie is a big name, relative to those other authors?

>How does Fate decide which literary characters are real Heroic Spirits and which are fake phantom spirits?
Depends on Nasu's mood.

Not that user but by some counts she's the best-selling novelist in the world.

Nobody knows OP, nobody knows

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>Paul Bunyan is fake
fate-go.cirnopedia.org/servant_profile.php?servant=174
>Sleepy Hollow Headless Horseman is fake
fate-go.cirnopedia.org/servant_profile.php?servant=158

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She's probably more easily recognised that Conan Doyle, but then Holmes as a character completely outshines Doyle in terms of recognition, ironically.

Even tertiary OP knows more than you. How embarassing.

t. secondary
Both those Servants are explicitly Phantom Spirits and not full Heroic Spirits and only became Servants through shenanigans.

>Captain Nemo is real
Wait, what?

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Somewhat

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Christie quadruples fuckin JK Rowling in sales, hell she's only matched by godamn Shakespare in numbers you complete mongoloid

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Captain is almost certainly Nemo but we don't know shit about his nature.

>How does Fate decide which literary characters are real Heroic Spirits and which are fake phantom spirits?
"Can we think of a way to fit X into any Servant class?"

this the daily reminder that fgo was a mistake?

You mean Extraverse right?

You could forget THE GREAT POIROT?

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that tho but it wasn't that invasive.meanwhile fgo became the center of the tm verse

>Captain Nemo
>White

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In his original conception Verne wanted to make Nemo a Polish exile who hated the Russians, his editor convinced him to make his ethnicity and nationality ambiguous instead.

>Arjuna is brown
>Rama and Karna aren't
They don't even care, I'm sure they just throw designs at the wall and run with whatever sticks.

FGO has some high points at least, meanwhile Extraverse is dragged down by Nasu's insistence on using Nero as an MC.

Because going with that idea would have lost them the Russian market and piss off Russia which was a major French ally at the time. Also the book does allude that he has a dislike for British Imperialism and why would do that if not India? lastly what fucking relevance does original conception have? None because it didn't make it into the book

Whatever will make the best husbando bait
pale skin is associated with divinity in indian mythology irc

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Edmond Dantes being real at least makes some amount of sense since TCOMC was based off of a real revenge murder.

>pale skin is associated with divinity in indian mythology irc
But then that should extend to Arjuna too. I wouldn't expect consistency at any rate.

>TCOMC was based off of a real revenge murder.
>The Count never actually murdered anyone

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Makes sense to me if he's legend for shit he did under an alias. That mystery has to be recreated for people who wouldn't know what Nemo means.

>TFW Extra manga without Nero is even worse and wormfaces are even bigger cancer than Nero
Why can't extrafags have anything nice?

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Cyberspace HGW on the moon was an inherently terrible idea for a setting to begin with and I'm sure one of the driving reasons behind it was the need to churn out cheap low-poly assets to pad fodder enemies and bland environments.

Better question is why is fansubbing so deep in the shitter that no ones translating the second Heavens Feel movie to the point we need to wait for the official release with subs.

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Well thats why Doyle killed Homes as he was tired of having to write about him and was his way to attempt to get rid of him so he could write about other things.

Of course we know that didnt work.

>Paul Bunyan is a loli
What a fucking surprise.

>Headless Horseman is actually riding a wolf and is a actual wolf.
...

Don't you dare hate on Lobo

Did they make a heroic spirit of this dude yet?

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>Heroic Spirit Adolf
What would his Skills and Noble Phantasm be?

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And they fight crime.

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CR killed fansubbing for most series years ago
not sure why no one subs the shows CR doesn't pick up though, I've been away for a few years
god I miss 2011

Yeah but Fate is such a big deal that you'd think there'd be a group willing to sub it. Or am I just out of touch and Fate/Stay Night is forgotten and not that popular anymore?

Fate as a franchise is more popular than ever but I wouldn't be surprised if F/SN itself (outside UBW) had fallen out of favor

I know we're on Yea Forums but do you really have such little cultural knowledge?

Auschwitz reality marble for phantasm.

The Shinjuku Avenger is a composite of the Headless Horseman and an actual wolf

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Sleepy_Hollow
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobo_the_King_of_Currumpaw

Both are phantom spirits because the former is fictional and the latter is not famous enough to be a true Heroic Spirit but because of Shinjuku shenanigans when fused together they are able to become a Servant.

Karna has pale skin in his mythologie.

Guys I know who Poirot, The Invisible Man and Headless Horseman are. I'm calling the other guy an idiot for not knowing them

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Kinda

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How does one into reading? Help me please

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Spear of Longinus

Why is the MC such a degenerate?

1. Pick up a book
2. Start reading

This entire thread forgot that you can summon versions of heroes, both fictional and historic. You can summon the myth itself, the inspiration for the myth, the hero at multiple stages in their lives, etc.

We literally have three different Jack the Rippers and two Edison.

On the other hand, it's been established ever since the original F/SN that it is not possible to summon heroes who never existed no matter how famous the legend is. That's why some random farmer dude is standing in for Sasaki Kojirou.

When they need more money.
They know the gatchafags will eat up anything anyway

>Fran is real, but there is also a fictional Frankenstein's monster
>The Invisible Man is fictional and not famous enough to be summoned directly
>Poirot is fiction but he was hastily summoned, we don't know if he can be summoned as a heroic spirit
>Hessian is fictional, Lobo is real, but neither are famous enough to be summoned
>Sherlock and Paul are fictional, but are famous enough to be summoned
>It doesn't explicitly state if Edmond Dantes is real or fictional, but the one summoned is simply an avatar of vengeance and just a part of him
>Nemo is fictional, but we don't know if that's really him or another mixed bag like Zhuge Liang or something else altogether

>Sherlock and Paul are fictional, but are famous enough to be summoned
IIRC Holmes is the mix of the legend created by the novels overlaid on a Holmes who in TM might have actually existed, but is left ambiguous. Paul is a joke character who was summoned with the power of comedy and a Holy Grail. If you have a Holy Grail even donut steel like Jeanne Alter and Cu Alter can be summoned.

>It doesn't explicitly state if Edmond Dantes is real or fictional, but the one summoned is simply an avatar of vengeance and just a part of him
He's considered real, Jeanne talks about him like he's historical fact and there's a drama CD with one of his early adventures hunting down the dudes who got the Abbe Faria imprisoned. The Count we summon is the aspect of him from before he completed his revenge and redemption.

At the end of the day the example of REGEND demonstrates that there is probably a line of "totally did not exist" past which you can't really summon a hero. Nasu has never followed his own rules, though.

Why is Nursery Rhyme a hero? If concepts can be heroes, why can't the Internet and Money be heroes?

Originally I figured that it was because the Mooncell can do whatever the fuck it likes and isn't bound by the Throne of Heroes, but now that she's in FGO I have no clue.

Not possible to summon in the Fuyuki system, you mean?

everything is recorded by akasha / the root, throne of heroes is just one category in it. if you could get the right ritual you could probably summon basically anything.

has to match the female one

Also Dumas pretty much state the he is real.

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Dumas says Dantes came to visit him once, but Dumas just hid inside his house so after a while Dantes left

That aside we can't be sure of anything Dumas says, he might not even be Alexandre Dumas père

>Dumas says Dantes came to visit him once, but Dumas just hid inside his house so after a while Dantes left

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Wouldn't Sherlock be fake giving that he's fictional?

>Holmes is addicted to opium
>Dantes keeps boasting in the novel about how fucking amazing hashish is
Do you think the two of them host drug parties in Chaldea?

Yes, and the Hassans join them

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WTF why none told me that Roman was Solomon?

What about Fou being Primate Murder

user spoiler are spoilers for a reason, also finish the fucking singularity.

Riyo has both of them as raging homosexuals.

tsukihime in fgo when?

just wait

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The Best Character In Type Moon

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What is her name

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>still no servant from my country

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The Best Girl

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The same reason why in Fate fame or age of your myth equals power except when it doesn’t. Fate is dumb.

>Yea Forums is uncultured and knows nothing about real authors

Sasuga

I thought autism played the bigger role on your power level when you are summoned as a servant.

Fran is cute! CUTE!

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>All the major EU nations have a hero
>Except fucking spain, that has Columbus as the closest thing

what do you think void dust is made of?

>one of the 9 Beasts is a mortal woman born in the 2000s who ate a bunch of computer programs

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Half of our goddess is in, but it's not actually presented in any way.

Colombus is italian, but yeah...

Blame Nadu, he really liked Bayo. Not that I'm complaining.

E D M O N D
That's her name, don't you forget it.

He was an italian whose explorations were done for the Spanish crown, that's what I was referring to as "The closest thing." His voyages were for Spain's glory.

It's not fair, bros...

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I mean yeah, I get you, but Spain have plenty of characters to choose, dunno why there aren't any.

Don't the nips love Magellan or something? Maybe one day

LB7 soon

Avicebron is spanish

Nah, but considering that Cthulhu is canon in Fate they might do so in the future.

LB7?

Lostbelt 7 is rumoured to be set in South America.

Well shit.
I assumed he was from the middle east, given the heavy judiastic golem forming and poet sides of things, and the desert-looking home in his flashbacks.

Probably some kind of Holocaust reality marble that... embodies the concept of mass killing to not merely achieve effects beyond the 'common sense' of the age by crystallizing the echoing power of the holocaust to refract human though, though the ultimately unsuccessful nature of the legend results in an anti-army noble phantasm which is a sure* kill**, but extremely costly to invoke?

Does that sound like something Nasu would write?

I'm more pissed at them jewing Germany out of several servants. Freischütz is just absorbed by Moriarty, Hessian is just a part of Lobo, Iskandar's design and powers are basically what Barbarossa would be.

he is a jew born in the moor controlled part of
spain though.

I'm surprised they don't have Conan the Barbarian servant yet.

If they make him a berseker they fail hard.

>fake phantom spirits
I don't think those were fake, they just weren't strong enough to qualify as heroic spirits.

I've never really dived into Fate that much but just from what I've heard over the years it sounds like he has a strong bias against America and American myths.

Anyway, Paul Bunyan is strange because he was real Maine/Vermont folklore that got Disneyfied by a maple syrup company in the 1920s.

Pecos Bill was complete fakelore but if Sherlock Holmes shows up then whatever.

what's his noble phantasm?

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unexpected semen stain

Surviving AIDS.

Frankly, it's bullshit that he just "Nah"s away almost all mythological contribution America has to offer. Edison is a fucking lion for no reason, Tesla is more Serb than American, and the Big Men are apparently not good enough for material. Hell, Bunyan was brought in as a loli. The only worthwhile servants out of American folklore are Billy the Kid and Geronimo, and they're 3-stars and not particularly competitive.

Most legends are based on something real, that's why some characters can be real while others can't.
I'll just use Vlad III as an example, he can be summoned as either the real Vlad III or the Dracula persona, despite the fact that Dracula never existed in the first place.

>Billy
>Not good in the era of skadhatch

I did not have sexual relations with that woman - retroactively cucks enemy master

Or I could still use my Gil and get the same results.

America is too fucking young to even be relevant

I really hate poirot stories so im ok with that

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Moriarty outright calls the phantom spirit detectives at the climax of Shinjuku "fictional" and they were only able to appear through Shakespeare and Hans shenanigans.

is that the germophobe from seto no hanayome

>no record of winning against important servants
So? Even a sword autistic is better than him

>The only worthwhile servants out of American folklore are Billy the Kid and Geronimo
Aren't you forgetting someone?

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Could someone give me a quick rundown as to what their Noble Phantasm would be?

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well, he is in the leon with Trump and all future presidents

Wait, UTW didn't get back together to do it?

The funny thing is, by the definition of an heroic spirit, Hitler's prolly the closest thing to one in the modern age. The status is determined by the perception of humanity.
His actual life is shrouded in so much misinformation from both sides that the majority of humans have an almost mythological view of him, either as evil incarnate or as the greatest hero to ever live.

There are only seven beasts and Kiara was just the right part of Beast III.

At least Karl Magnus is there and the historical version identifies himself as German instead of French.

American myth gets the short end of the stick in the lore unless if it involves lolis and/or Cthulhu.

Also America exists solely to btfo of invading AYY LMAOs.

>Mfw more people are beginning to realize lost belt 4 is going to be Septem, but with a million Sakuras and a million times worse

I'm referring to the two "halves" of 3 and 6 as different things because I do not see a way where III-L is something that'd work organically combined with Heaven's Hole.

user the only extraverse servant in LB4 is Karna.

>Expecting Karna but not Arjuna
>Explicitly the female Arjuna from that one part of indian myth where he pisses off a goddess by downplaying her advances claiming "she's more like a mother-figure to him" and in her rage she curses him to live as a woman, with the range of time varying based on the version of the tale.

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Not that user but do you know why Beast III and VI have L & R part ? From what i remember then III-R = recives love from all while III-L = gives love to all so they'll never be able to stand together

I have a secret for you; Fate isn't real and it's written by an author.

I do understand that but then the counter argument is that the one half of beast 6 we've seen is the actual Beast of Revelations which almost certainly means that the other half of it is the actual Mother Harlot, two things that obviously should be together.

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The other half is that stupid thot from that worthless story called Fate prototype

I was honestly happy when the Big Lad made it, cause I feel like previous picks were tad weird
I still want to see Peter The Great as Ruler and a couple of writers/poets)

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You got Sigurd

This guy actually gets how the system works.

Not really. We know from FSN Archer that servants can be pretty powerful in the same time period as they lived, and the Throne of Heroes is supposed to be outside time anyway, so age doesn't matter.

The bigger issue is that America exists entirely within the historical/modern era, whereas the servants with the best feats or legends almost have to be older than that. From the beginning, America is too well documented for it to have proper 'legends', and historical figures aren't strong servants, except for when they actually are*.

The other issue is that personal combat is basically dead in 1607, so the closest you get to figures who can fight are generals, and you need a pretty significant revision to get someone like Washington or Lee or Patton to be able to mean anything in the same area as Hercules. Beyond that, IIRC nasu has said that the servant system is pretty heavily biases against firearm users, because their weapons are 'power separate from their own existences' or somesuch.

*Nero, for example, shouldn't have any fighting ability worth mentioning based on the historical cannon, but does anyway. I guess because Sebia.

>He thinks Manaka matters

It's almost like Yea Forums is a cesspool that reads garbage like Akame, Masamune-Kun, Hitman Reborn, BnH, and World's End Harem unironically and delude themselves into thinking they're not reading glorified toilet paper

>I guess because Sebia
no its just imperial privilege

FPBP

Lot of stories about Hitler taking the Spear of Longinus. So he'd be highly likely to have it if summoned.

They did make El Cid. He died though.

Kojiro:
>apparently some historians say he was made up
>this belief is so little spread all English results for his name treat him as an actual historical person
Fake.

King Arthur:
>You can't even place his story on a specific century due to anachronisms
Real. He was also a little girl.

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I mean you also have Herc and Medusa who don't even have a historical figure to be sort of based on.

Dunno if you can really count him, I think Sigurd is more like the original Norse version while Siegfried is the German Prince of Xanten from the Nibelungenlied

How does that work for Noble Phantasms? If the actual NP exists in the world, when the HS is summoned possessing that NP, does it mean there are then two copies of that Noble Phantasm in existence? And what if you use a NP as a catalyst to summon the Heroic Spirit with that NP? Could you get shit like Cu dual-wielding Gae Bolg with Gae Bolg?

NPs like Avalon I can understand, since Saber canonically doesn't get summoned with it (because she loses Avalon as part of her legend), so when she's given it in FSN it's a temporary thing.

But as a better example, actually, Gray in El-Melloi Case Files. Gray has Rhongo. What happens if Gray's Rhongo is used as a catalyst to try and summon Saber? Do you then (while the Servant is summoned) have two Rhongomyniads? And for that matter, what happens if both NPs (one summoned, one pre-existing) are used against each other?

Given that you can summon the concept of disease as a servant, I wouldn't be surprised if "internet" and "money" are in the summoning pool somewhere.

Given that summoning Archer caused two of Rin's pendant to exist in the same time, yes.

That's just a pendant though, something in me wants to say that a Noble Phantasm is kind of a different order of object.

I could see him either being:
A really shitty Rider that's based on a Nazi point of view.
A meh Caster based on the legends surrounding nazis and the occult with ridiculous Noble Phantasms based on the concentration camps and shit.
An otherwise shit Lancer that has the lance of longinus. Makes it so he can't be "defeated" but he has shit stats so he gets his shit kicked in but he won't die unless he loses the lance.
A pretty good Berserker that has Hitler as "the ultimate evil" that the majority of society views him as.

I think that last one is Avenger's territory and not Berserker. Especially since his hatred toward people stems from a love of (his own) people, which is one of the qualifications for the class.

Could Gil just give his master a Noble Phantasm to use?

>could
Yes.
>would
Fuck no.

I mean he gives his master an elixir of youth in SF. I guess it depends on the master. Why didn't he give Kotomine some shit?

It depends who his master is and what kind of mood he's in. He pulls out things for his master in Strange/Fake a few times.

I'd honestly put that down to him being so elated he gets to see Enkidu again. That and it isn't really a NP, just like how that wine he pulls out in FZ isn't a NP.

Is there a more powerful gang of servants than this?

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Add Solomon and Enkidu, maybe. Possibly Karna as well?

They don't have the laugh though

I don't see why they couldn't end up with two NPs at the same time. If they clashed then it would probably come down to who had more magical power or the NP would be ranked down in the hands of someone who wasn't its owner. I would lean towards the second option.

This is actually really interesting. I'd like to see something like this explored in an actual grail war.

What class would he be?

>fights barehanded
>doesn't have notable kills
>doesn't go crazy
>doesn't ride
>doesn't cast

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I want to see Conan as a Noble Phantasm.

But honestly, he'd just be a recolor of Zero's Rider.

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Strange Fake has the Key Sword for Gil's GoB used as a catalyst.

user, Hercule Poirot would be too strong.
I wish he was in though so we could have running gags about his obsessive compulsive disorder

beacuse Kotomine is a degenerate that only exist to amuse him. not his master.

>"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

Real out of left field but any more love Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser can get anywhere would be welcome.

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Aren't loads of legends technically "literary" heroes?

>Hercule Poirot would be too strong.
What's he going to do, deduce me to death?

Caster or ruler cause that's where everyone else goes when they can't figure that shit out.

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Both Chinese punchmen so far have been stuck in Assassin.

Sherlock Holmes is not real in Nasuverse, the Count of Monte Cristo is not real in Nasuverse and very likely Nemo is not real either.

They are all fictional servants whose fame is so great that they can be summoned independently as a Heroic Spirit, the same goes for Paul Bunyan.

I am unsure if Franky also is in this fictional niche but even if she was her fame is great enough to be summoned as a real servant.

The others legends are too weak to become servants so they are phantoms instead. In fact, Hercule Poirot and many other smalltime detectives are summoned at the end of Shinjuku as phantom spirits to assist the main character.

So it doesn't matter if they're real, the throne records them as is regardless. The same goes for legends affecting how a servant is. Salieri, despite not killing Mozart, is bogged down by his legend there. Vlad has to suffer through vampiric traits even though he didn't have them in real life. It is irrelevant whether it was real or not, it's a part of their legend and that's where the power comes from.

Edmond Dantes is real in the Nasuverse though. Dumas talks about basing his story on the real Edmond Dantes who visits him during his life and via the drama cd we know of events that actually happened too. He really did get crazy revenge powers and burned Roa to ash.

He's weak, actually. Holmes is weak in direct combat too, even though his entire NP is basically limitless asspulls works. Basically, Shinjuku clarifies that Holmes = Moriarty >>>>> other detectives

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Kojiro is revealed to be a real person in the world female Musashi came from. He's only fake in the Fate/Stay Night world so they basically retconned him since the Throne is multiversal.

>Sherlock Holmes is not real in Nasuverse
He's real because Moriarty calls all the other detectives fictional, by exclusion that means Holmes is real.

>the Count of Monte Cristo is not real in Nasuverse
Dantes is 100% real in the Nasuverse with TCOMC based on a real person, though aspects of him differ from the book (such as the nature of Haydee)

>I am unsure if Franky also is in this fictional niche
Fran is considerd real, Caules summoned her with Dr Frankenstein's original blueprint as a catalyst.

>The others legends are too weak to become servants so they are phantoms instead.
All fictional people end up as phantoms and not real Heroic Spirits. You can't summon a fictional person as a heroic spirit, that's why Medea got a nameless farmer as "Sasaki Kojiro". If they can be summoned as Servants, they were real, outside of specific exceptions created by Bael's fuckery in Shinjuku.

>He's real because Moriarty calls all the other detectives fictional, by exclusion that means Holmes is real.
...

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Wrong, the only factor which plays a role in being a phantom is not whether you were fictional or not, but how strong your legend is. This is directly stated in Shinjuku and not refutable. So again, it doesn't matter if you were fictional and Kojiro being fictional was basically retconned in Shimosa anyways.

>This is directly stated in Shinjuku and not refutable.
Post caps

Moriarty tells you that you can't have completely fictional Servants without an extremely good reason, most of our "fiction" Servants were based on a "real" original model like Fran and Dantes. Fame alone won't cut it.

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He outright states that Phantom Spirits are fictional entities.

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How is Moriarty himself not fictional?

Fictional entities, and also randos whose fame isn't strong enough to qualify as a heroic spirit. Point is that most fictions will become Phantom Spirits, not HS.

I'm guessing the same way that Fran, Jekyll/Hyde, and Dantes aren't fictional.

How do you think Babylonia will be?

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He says right there that servants with fame powerful enough can exist even IF they are fiction retard. Both Moriarity AND Holmes are both fictional but have fame strong enough to exist. Holmes himself has basically his ENTIRE FGO BIO devoted to this
>he protagonist of the stories that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote in the 19th~20th Century, he is a detective who explains all enigmas and one of the ancestors of the “detectives” that appear on the many mystery novels of later years
>For argument’s sake, if he was really originated from the stories, then there is a possibility of not only Doyle’s novels but also its pastiches having been included... according to the Chaldea staff’s gossips
Holmes and Moriarty are entirely fictional.

So let's summarize so this fuckwit doesn't twist it again
>all fictional people end up as phantoms

vs what is actually said in the story which is
>MOST servants cannot exist if they are purely fiction
>there must be a powerful reason to exist on fiction alone
>literally Nursery Rhyme
>fictions whose spirit origin values fail to suffice

So don't try and twist it now that you're wrong retard

Fake is Real
Real is Fake.

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>He says right there that servants with fame powerful enough can exist even IF they are fiction retard
He says that there must be a "powerful reason" then gives the fucking concept of protecting children as a reason. How do you get "enough fame" from that?
You said it yourself,
He says here that fictions don't have sufficient Spirit Origin value.

Fame is the "powerful reason" most of the time in determining whether a servant manifests and how strong they are, this is Fate 101

But let's stop getting off the point, which is that your claim was
>All fictional people end up as phantoms and not real Heroic Spirits
And that's completely untrue and destroys your entire premise. Nevermind the Holmes massive headcanon that came before it.

I don't think that's gonna happen since we actually have St. Longinus as a servant now

I love that he is completly broken and way too OP even as a servant. It was about time the church actually got some powerfull representation and no Jeanne/Martha/George do not count because they're tanks/healers, I'm talking about offensive power.

>Fame is the "powerful reason" most of the time in determining whether a servant manifests and how strong they are, this is Fate 101
Fame was only ever mentioned in Fate as a reason for someone to have gotten recorded in the Throne and to get a powerboost in the War. It was never mentioned to let fictional people exist, that's the basic premise of Fakesassin. If being famous would let a fictional person be a Servant with zero basis in fact then Moriarty would have said so, not given an outlandish exception that proves the rule like Nursery Rhyme.

>But let's stop getting off the point, which is that your claim was
>>All fictional people end up as phantoms and not real Heroic Spirits
>And that's completely untrue and destroys your entire premise.
Fine, let me amend that statement. All fictional people end up as phantoms and not Heroic Spirits, except for outlandish exceptions that prove the rule like Nursery Rhyme who is the concept of fairytales and doesn't actually have fame.
All that quote says that Holmes has had the novels integrated into his spirit origin. That's no different from Vlad being able to become a vampire. It doesn't say that Holmes was fully fictional.

First, it has become clear to me from your responses that you are some sort of ESL. How do I know this? Because you claim, against all logic, that this post supports your argument when it does not. And I have just realized you are reading it entirely wrong, not that it matters because the original japanese translation supports what I am saying regardless.

You are reading it as
>Fictions, whose Spirit Origin values fail to suffice
And this is a common ESL mistake which completely changes the meaning of the latter half of the sentence. "whose Spirit Origin values fail to suffice" is not a descriptor of the first part without the comma. Instead, the correct reading of the sentence
>Fictions whose Spirit Origin values fail to suffice
implies "[Those] fictions whose Spirit Origin values fail to suffice," which means the subset of fictions who have too low spirit origin values. This is in line with the previous image posted and the correct english interpretation.

So, now that you understand why your claim has no merit, let me address what you said
>all fictional people end up as phantoms and not Heroic Spirits
wrong, again based on those two screenshots and also the various examples, one of which you provide and try to play off as nothing
>Paul
>Holmes
>Moriarty
>Nursery Rhyme

>all that quote says that Holmes has had the novels integrated into his spirit origin
No, it says his spirit origin is derived from just that and anything else is headcanon, because he most certainly does not talk about it elsewhere. Literally stating he is the protagonist of the book series and owing his existence solely to that.

>because the original japanese translation
>Japanese
>translation
Nitpicking aside, as a different user asking for academic interest, could you post the corresponding screenshots from the Japanese version?

>Paul
If I'm not mistaken reading the wiki entry (and the TM wiki is always suspect), wasn't Paul created with a Holy Grail and the power of the Goddess Columbia? It's been well established that if you use a Holy Grail you can even force fanfic-tier Servants like Jeanne Alter and Cu Alter to exist.

Mea culpa to the misplaced comma. a
Although I'd still argue that Nursery Rhyme isn't a proper example of a fictional entity that becomes real through fame like you are claiming Sherlock is. Paul is literally a crossover gag character.

As for Holmes
>The Heroic Spirit Holmes, who resembles the men he was modeled after, such asJoseph Bell, Doyle himself, or the oldest detective in the world,Vidocq- he was summoned into this world as none of the above, but rather, as the protagonist of a series of novels (for his words and actions cannot be thought of those other than that of a protagonist's).
>In the end, was the story of Sherlock Holmes really a complete work of fiction penned by Sir Doyle, or was it the biography of the actual Holmes as written by Dr. John H. Watson? Perhaps it was somewhere in between the two? At the very least, Holmes himself should know the answer, but it's not a topic he brings up himself, and when the issue does come up in conversation, he always deftly evades the question.
Even he won't confirm whether or not he is real.

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>anons are arguing over whether fictional people are fictional fictional people or fictional real people
Is this the power of Typemoon autism?
Isn't it moot anyway since whether a fictional person was fictional or "real" is down to whatever the hell the author felt like?
We can probably assume that Franky and Edmond are "real" because they have massive aspects that differ from the original stories (Fran's gender, Haydee being a fairy) and therefore there had to be some basis from which these aspects arose outside of the stories.
I don't think Holmes and Moriarty have any such characteristics, although Holmes tells (you) in Shinjuku that he told Watson not to write too much about Moriarty. which suggests he was actually alive at some point unless fictions just take place in a weird phantasmal world? This assumes we can even trust what Holmes tells us, which we really can't.

TL;DR the writers didn't care, why should you?

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The japanese version isn't clear on that part as well but I suppose it phrases it better. When Sherlock says he wanted to remove him from Watson's writings, it's instead said in the JP version (in this part of his monologue) that Watson was not with him when he confronted Moriarty most of the time. This doesn't give us a clue because it may be the case that we only know of Moriarty due to the author not being Watson or Sherlock/Moriarty have a way deeper history than described in the books.

Either way, he does later say he wanted Watson to limit what he said of him because he was also aware that they would both become servants in the future. Which is ridiculous as well. Ergh.

Alexandre Dumas also claims to have encountered Dantes in person, but this assumes we can trust Dumas.

Thanks user.
>霊基数値が満たない虚構

>This assumes we can even trust what Holmes tells us, which we really can't.
Why can't we trust Holmes? Serious question, I wasn't aware he was considered an unreliable source.

have you seen the way he keeps alternating his raised eyebrows every sentence? he is like a space alien who learned human expression from Dreamworks movies.

He's lied to us before (about his class) and withheld the truth as well (about Lostbelts and the pillars before it happened). There is also pic related.

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Nemo is a phantom, Sion even points it out.

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One day we ausfags will have our servant.
I hope the same happens for whatever country you are from too.

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So is the pastiche line just an excuse to have his Noble Phantasm name be "Elementary"?

well, yes, and that's his most famous "quote"
he also technically has two known NPs, the other is for disguising

Wasnt the theory that she fused nemo and little prince phantoms to get a servant?

So Incas? I mean, that's the only civilization that matters down there.

At any rate, going to the library and trying to see what peruvian girls can give Nasu the greatest amount of money is going to be somewhat enlightening that's for sure.

>user keeps bringing up Sasaki Kojirou like it means anything anymore

Hey, you know what was also true in the F/SN?

>The Fuyuki Grail system was entirely unique in its capacity to recreate the form and personality of a Heroic Spirit instead of just summoning it as formless power
>The Grail needs to gather prana from top quality leylines for 60 years to run a War for just two weeks. Past that point the whole thing becomes unstable and ends
>The Avenger class was created bespoke for Angry Manjew by the Einzberns
>Saber is going to Avalon after death instead of becoming a HS in the Throne of Heroes because she's considered "still alive" along the British as the Once and Future King

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It's his most famous quote, but it wasn't a catchphrase in the novels, rather from a pastiche.

Hitler as Grand Avenger w/Rhongomyniad as his NP. It's gotta happen.

Also Sherlock is still shrouded in mystery. There’s a lot of foreshadowing about him possibly being a Foreigner/linked to otherworldly shit.

How op is he?

He was helena friend too.
Btw how people say that he wasnt real when we have a short story of those 2? same with Dantes

I hope its that military officer that lose againts the emu

P U M P I T
youtube.com/watch?v=KV5QlSgq7lg

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There are both versions of each heroic sprit, the one we actually get depends on the writers. For example, in Extella Link, we have a fictional Charlemagne and a real Charlemagne.

Isnt that just the extreme case of the vampire vlad and Vlad III case?

In Extella Link it's stated that Charlemagne (twink) should never have been summoned and that a true Charlemagne would always take the form of Karl der Grosse, just with a different personality and some different NPs from what we see in Link. So that's also not really a good test case either.

Isn't the Gudao-looking Charlemagne supposed to be the one who hangs out with the Paladins (aka KOTR fanfic)?

Who gives a shit about anything Fate related post Zero?(not counting newer adaptations of older shit)

Babylonia wasn't bad.

Carnival Phantasm was great

He can't be a servant himself since all past and future US presidents are in the lion

Speaking of which, Hyde/Jekyll in Nasuverse is real right ?

Yes

Pretty much all the literature heroes so far are real, except apparently for the Shinjuku phantom spirits.

Emu-man the slayer of whites

He's going to make you do the 'evil voice', confess, then shoot yourself. Then he's going to laugh and take Hastings out for lunch.

>Germany only has Siegfried
I'm so sorry.

Germany also has Karl der Grosse.

If 19th century is still viable then Bismarck should be valid for Germany.
And Garibaldi for Italy too.

I'm still holding out for Munchausen at some point, though.

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Still no:
>any of the bogatyrs
>Koschei
>Yaga
>Elena or Vasilisa
>Kolovrat
>Peresvet
>Vladimir
>Alexander of Neva
>Dmitriy of the Don
>Olga
>Pushkin or Tolstoy
>Peter the Great
>Ekaterina

Koschei not being in yet is the one that puzzeles me most, as he is one of the faces or slavic folk
And on top of it, Viy is a weired spirit attached to Anastassia.

>He's real because Moriarty calls all the other detectives fictional
>by exclusion that means Holmes is real.

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Not that user but in Nasuverse Holmes is real. He did meet Helena before

Don Quixote, Rider Class.
NP depends on the enemy size. The more absolute the unit, the stronger his spear.
Y/N?

>It just seems totally random or down to author bias.
Like any work of fiction?

Yeah, I just ended up reading the whole thing.
I just felt like pointing out how what that user said didn't really make sense because why not.

Faggot who hasn't got into Extra, Grand Order or any of the spinoffs and shit here.
Say, has there been direct interactions between the 2 versions of a same servant?
For example, I know people like Arturia, Mordred, Cu Chulainn and Jeanne have 2nd versions.
The alt of Cu is a berserker, Jeanne's an avenger and the alts of Arturia and Mordred are riders.
Has there been any interactions between them and their original versions?

Also, are there any other remarkable cases of a servant having 2 versions of themself?
I can't explain it, but the idea amuses me.

Yes, multiple instances. Jeanne and Jeanne Alter face off at the culmination of Orleans and a key aspect of Extella Link is the clash between Charlemagne and Karl der Grosse.
Also, MHX's whole thing is hunting down all the other Saberfaces and she trains Saber Lily.

Those are slightly different cases. Some are actual alts, some are jokes, some are the originals in a different class.

Artoria alts:
>OG Artoria
The original.
>Artoria Alter
The original, but tainted by Angry Manjew in the Heaven's Feel route.
>Artoria (Summer) (Archer)
Joke Servant, the OG Artoria with a watergun.
>Artoria Alter (Summer) (Rider)
Joke Servant, Artoria Alter with a watergun and a motorbike
>Artoria (Lancer)
Alternative universe version of the original, who used the lance Rhongomyniad as her primary armament instead of Excalibur. Big tiddies. In the Camelot singularity timeline, Bedivere failed to return Excalibur to the lake so she couldn't die and instead ascended to become Divine Spirit Rhonyomyniad
>Artoria Alter (Lancer)
Alternate of Artoria (Lancer) who chose to retain her humanity instead of becoming a Divine Spirit, and wandered the Earth as the captain of the Wild Hunt. Not much is known about her
>Mysterious Heroine X (Assassin)
Walking Star Wars/Sword Art Online joke
>Mysterious Heroine X Alter (Berserker)
Walking Star Wars joke
>Proto Arthur
Male Arthur Pendragon from Fate Prototype, alternate universe.

Mordred alts
>Mordred
OG
>Summer Morded (Rider)
Joke Servant, the OG Mordred but stole Prydwen from Artoria's treasury to use as a surfboard.

Cu alts:
>OG Cu
The man himself
>Caster Cu
OG Cu, but in a Caster class container so he does his rune magic instead.
>Prototype Cu
Alternate universe Cu.
>Berserker Cu (Alter)
A fanfic of Cu created by Medb with a Holy Grail, basically her fetish fantasy version of Cu.

Jeanne alts:
>Jeanne
The original
>Jeanne Alter
A fanfic version of Jeanne created by Gilles with a Holy Grail, with the desire for vengeance that Gilles was sure that she should have had while being burned at the stake. Canonically the actual Jeanne, being a saint, is impossible to corrupt
>Jeanne Alter Santa Lily
Joke Servant. Jeanne Alter who drank Gil's potion of youth and wanted to become Santa Claus

Forgot one
>Artoria Alter (Santa) (Rider)
Joke Servant, Artoria Alter who decided to become Santa Claus.

>Oh boo hoo, we Germans only have one or two Servants
Look on the bright side you cunts, you actually have them. We're a major english-speaking country closer to Japan than those American fuckers, but they get a ton of Servants and a singularity, whilst we get jack. Just make a Ned Kelly Servant Nasu, it's not fucking hard.

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I still don’t understand why Dantès shoots lasers.

Cool tomboy Ned Kelly would be neat.

learned it from Faria while in prison

>Also, are there any other remarkable cases of a servant having 2 versions of themself?
Heracles and Alcides.

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He's some dude who had scarily accurate fever dreams of elder gods, which are canon, so the effects of his writing can't be hodgepodged into making him a caster like Shakes or Hans
He's essentially the Fate equivalent of a non-fiction writer so zero mystery=zero chance to be a potential servant

In Type Moon the Church is a magic superpower organization, so naturally the treasure of Monte Cristo guarded by Abbe Faria can give you magic superpowers.

Extella Link is literally exactly about this, with anime bishonen 'myth' Charlegmagne fighting his huge, ripped 'real life' equivalent

But as a result the entities from his works are essentially factual, so we get Abby and Hokkusai instead.

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I don't think it was ever stated that Carter can't be summoned.

Forgot:
Artoria Lily
2 Medeas
3 Medusas (kinda 4)
2 Blubeards
3 Gills
2 Nero's
2 Quetzs
2 Marthas
2 Sakatas
and a bunch of other doubles

What? It's too soon.
We even don't know BD release date in Japan.

Subbing camrips is pretty rare. And the camrip that we do have is at a weird angle. It's not the heyday of fansubs anymore, not like when Mazui had a wizard to stabilize and remove all the flicker from the Disappearance of Haruhi movie cam.

Just read the VN you fag.

Mine neither.
I want:
Bernardo O'Higgins as saber
Arturo Prat Eide3r
Lautaro rider/ruler

>skipped helping citizens in a quick montage
>no long distance travel
>CGI beasts
>CGI lahmu
>CGI tiamat
>CGI gorgon
>CGI hassan

because Zero was bad and there have been several superior works since

Arturo Prat as rider*
Fu*** autocorrect

He became the Doctor Who of the Nasuverse instead and travels with his own eldritch loli.

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Why are the indian servants nerfed so hard? Rama should be a grand ,capable of shit-stomping gilgamesh but no he's treated like a fucking joke. Karna is eternally cucked and arjuna is an edgy cunt.

Paul bunyan is just an advertising mascot instead of a "real" legend IRL. At least Paul being fake makes sense.

What class would be Osama bin Laden?

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>Archer Pushkin never
>Rider Lermontov never
>Caster Gogol never
My inner Yea Forumsfag is convulsing in pain.

Rama even being below Karna or Arjuna in the first place is stupid, it's like they didn't even try.
For fuck's sake, Hinduism is one of the few instances of a religion actually having a clearly categorised power level system with regards to combat ability and even then TM managed to completely miss it.

Spin-off where Gil and Iskandar made the deal and conquer the world together when?

>missed opportunity of Catherine the Great waifu

Well they managed with Medb and Kiara, I guess The Bull Empress would also be feasible.

Rama forces himself into a class he's bad at so that he can see his wife in the archer class because that's the only class she's qualified in. If he took the archer class, he'll never see his wife again. That's why his sword is an arrow.

Fake News reeee

>Bismarck
>Noble Phantasm - The Concert of Europe
>When Bismarck dies, everyone kills each other

That's still a hard nerf, he's an Atimaharathi while Karna is a Maharathi, the difference is pretty big.

Can you post the chart, I‘m confused. If I remember correctly both Karna and Rama were the highest level.

I'm just going by the wikipedia version.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_mythological_wars#Levels_of_Warrior_Excellence

But then it also states that Arjuna is Atimaharathi while Karna is Maharathi which seems pretty weird. Dunno.

>Heroic Spirit Kutuzov
>His NP is a reality marble of wooden Moscow perpetually burning down

Holmes literally says Watson is just a Conan Doyle alias

You need emu servant.

>Curryfags complaining about powerlevels
>again
Wake me up when Karna doesn't job to Gawain

Source?

Would Hitler be OP considering how infamous he is?

He would get a power boost due to fame in any western country, but his spirit origin itself would be really weak due to lack of mystery unless they write some bullshit to avoid that

There’s lots of mystery about Hitler and the average person doesn’t know what he was like.
e.g Did he even die in the bunker?
I think this post puts it perfectly.
He’d prpbably be summoned with a spear of longius + charisma and german tech NPs, like jet planes, tanks and the gustav, landkreuzer, all that stuff if he got any.

>He’d prpbably be summoned with a spear of longius
literally no one has heard of the spear of longinus conspiracy theories though

Also the gas chambers.
May not be the most iconic part of him but he’s said to have been very into the occult, feel that people at least know that. From passing words on TV and etc.

>Koschei
Now THAT is something I want to see Nasu's take on.
But the question is: What Class?
>Saber (He's been depicted wielding a sword since his appearances in fairytales)
or
>Caster (Given how he's pretty much a Lich with the weirdest fucking phylactery ever)

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meant for

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He would make a lot of people seethe when they see him in F/GO.

They should give Germany the Red Baron, that's pretty much the closest you can go for a soldier-type servant past the 21st century. Either that or Simo.

His phylactery isn't that weird, he was just super paranoid about hiding it, to the point of absurdity.
Considering he is primarly depicted as sorceror irrelevant of his aramaments, he could probably bullshit himself into Caster\Berserker double summon and be a punch wizard. He also qualifies for rider pretty easily with a creepy undead horse and everything.

I really wanna see what they could do with Svyatogor, if he is even possible as servant in the first place.

>His phylactery isn't that weird, he was just super paranoid about hiding it
The way he hides the needle IS the weird part part about it. But given how he managed to hide it in the first place would indicate that he possessed quite a lot of magical capability, so Caster it is.
Also, given how in the original fairytail the needle is literally referred as "his death" would Shiki be capable of cutting him down without it?

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Depends on which Shiki we are talking about, but in general...
Ryougi would probably run into the same shit she had with Souren, lines are there most likely, but next to invisible.
For Tohno, he wouldn't have problems with lines, but considering lack specificly his "death", there probably wouldn't be any points.
Thus, depending on how exactly needle works, it would probably be pointless to cut him in the first because he would either pull himself together or just respawn whole again.

You mean the most well-known English mystery writer? And no, Holmes, Watson and Moriarty are just characters. Give me three of Doyle's actual, specific stories that are better-known by the general public.

>what they could do with Svyatogor
Giant bearded manly man - cute girl obviously, maybe even a loli

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I'm not sure it's even confirmed whether or not Carter/Lovecraft is even dead or not. Virtually nothing about the guy has been revealed since Salem, assuming he's also not just David Bluebook as well for some reason.

Please, if anyone in the slavic folklore deserves to be reincarnated as qt loli, it would be Solovei Razboinik

Uh do you mean the Greek hero or some other dude?

The Multiverse lets them pick and choose. In one universe, Musashi was a female ronin who was ostracised because of her gender and was of little renown. In another, Musashi was a male samurai who became famous.

The unofficial rule is that the closer a fictional character gets to the modern era, the more likely they were purely fictional. 20th Century is usually the cut-off line. For example, Sherlock Holmes was created in the late 19th Century and was a real person in this universe whereas Hercule Poirot was made in 1920 and is an entirely fictional creation by Agatha Christie.

Also, if an author themselves is a Servant (Andersen, Shakespeare, etc), their creations are usually utterly fictitious unless they were based on real people with notable exceptions like Dumas.

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Not really relevant but in GO mats, Musashi did mention someone (the name is censored) who shares the same face with her. I wonder if that person is another Musashi-clone or what...

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Do you think Gilgamesh was aryan perfection?

They really need a monk clas

Mate, he was clearly perfection itself. Bara perfection.

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