How do you feel about retcons in anime?

You don't have to know every single piece of hidden symbolism in order to understand Rebellion. That being said, most people don't understand Homura and thus they don't understand Rebellion.

Look at OP pic and see

>185454681
Very poor bait.

>don't understand Homura
Which interpretation are you talking about?

Homura the selfish girl, who wished to be the one who saves Madoka, and wants to keep her for herself?

Homura the broken girl, who started out as a friend, but then just got more and more fixated on Madoka to the point of obsession?

Homura the selfless girl, who only wishes for Madoka's happiness, and is willing to sacrifice her own happiness for her. Even if it means that she will never see her again?

Homura the adult who understands the true nature of the world, and decides that the only way to save Madoka and Sayaka from their own self-destructive nature is to keep them from the world that is too cruel to let them be foolish?

Homura the abstract representation of individualism, the absolute antithesis to QBs and Kiritsugus Utilitarism.
Kiritsugu wished on the holy grail for a solution, for a world that would not need Utilitarism, for something that he himself would not understand.
And Homura's LOVE - an emotion that no one could possibly understand - was what allowed her to pull god from heaven and save the world entire. Letting her holly grail overflow(that actually literally happens btw. I'm not being hyperbolic) and cover the whole world in her barrier. And create a world whose purpose is love?

Or the Homura, who is all of those things, all of those things at the same time. Because Homura is flawed. And Homura is broken. And Homura is selfish. Because Homura is human?

Or something else, that I do not understand?

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That's just a cute Sayaka.

Indeed, very cute, especially for a dead person

>185454681
what exactly do you pretend to think was retconned about Sayaka?
Sayaka is still dead in Rebellion, for the case you are going to pretend that you think that she isn't.

She hadn't any "ff" hair clips in the TV

For a person who did not become a witch but instead went to Magical Girl Heaven due to Madoka's Law of Cycles.
Mami and Kyouko, who were killed by witches, are still alive, since Madoka's wish prevented the existence of witches and Sayaka and Nagisa, who already became witches were rescued and then accompanied Madoka to Homura's Soul Gem.

>Or the Homura, who is all of those things
There is no other Homura, but if you understand all that what do you not understand about Rebellion?, it's not some extremely deep complicated story.

It depends on how relevant the retcon is.
Sometimes a prequel comes to avoid over exposition

>Homura the selfish girl, who wished to be the one who saves Madoka, and wants to keep her for herself?
I cannot agree with this in the least, as nothing that Homura did in Rebellion indicates a selfish desire to keep Madoka for herself. Especially not the ending where she condemned herself for the sake of Madoka's happiness alone.
>Homura the broken girl, who started out as a friend, but then just got more and more fixated on Madoka to the point of obsession?
Is she broken? I would say the only point in the story where Homura was broken is when she allowed Madoka to make the final sacrifice. She was "fixed" again during the flower scene and even during her witch scene she was determined to protect Madoka by whatever means necessary. Even by damning herself for eternity. Again, the very opposite of selfishness. What you call obsession I call absolute dedication. Something only an absolute love could motivate.
>Homura the selfless girl, who only wishes for Madoka's happiness, and is willing to sacrifice her own happiness for her. Even if it means that she will never see her again?
Yes, albeit very simplistic.
>Homura the adult who understands the true nature of the world, and decides that the only way to save Madoka and Sayaka from their own self-destructive nature is to keep them from the world that is too cruel to let them be foolish?
No contradiction here.
>Homura the abstract representation of individualism....
That is interestingly put, and I don't necessarily disagree, nevertheless it feels to me like you're mixing in the author's supposed intent, which I don't particularly like.
>Or the Homura, who is all of those things, all of those things at the same time.
She's certainly not all of those things, as I previously explained.

How it was a retcon when it was Homura's magical induced acid trip?

5th and 6th are complicated.
5th is meta-context heavy and 6th is allowing self-contradictions.
Who is to say that there is no 7th Homura?

But regardless, I don't understand pic related for example:
"Wer hat geträumt?" - "Who has dreamt?"
Also, do you understand the full implications of the scenes before that? I don't.
Like, have you noticed that the picture of frozen Madoka before the end is blurry compared to one that appears earlier? I don't really get what that means.
And no. Those things are not just "meaningless" things, they are essential to Homura's character and the true nature of her world. And the possible interpretations of that.

>No contradiction here.
Do you think Homura cares about Sayaka or not, or is it ALL only for Madoka and Sayaka is only a "means to an end"? It's a contradicting underlying motivation.
>She's certainly not all of those things
>nothing that Homura did in Rebellion indicates a selfish desire to keep Madoka for herself
Homura is not a flawless Hero. Homura has secret desires and hopes as well. But that does not make her less, it makes her even greater.
You are stuck on the 3rd layer. But that's good, there is still time to awake.

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Also, I have not seen Utena yet, considering how heavily Madoka is relying on meta for context, I am probably missing a giant chunk.

It's just as how Devilman and Tutu made me understand it a lot better.

Like, have you noticed that Rebellion's ending is actually a direct criticism of Tutu's? It's actually a hard contrast:
Rebellion ends with Homura making the world fake and surreal because it is BETTER OFF THAT WAY.
Tutu ends with the fairytale ending and Ahiru returning to being a duck because it's "the truth".
And Kimi no Gin no Niwa reads:

Have you realized it, yet?
That the truth
always lies in the past
All those things like "hopes" and "the future"
are but a selfish story of a distant garden
drawn by someone, but no one knows it yet

Very fitting, isn't it?

Devilman is beyond interesting. As a comparison, as Madoka and Homura are obviously reinterpretations of Akira and Satan.

Madoka is a meta singularity. It's absolutely insane how much it references everything. And all those metaphors that reference and cross-reference everything. That is the layer that Madoka is the most interesting to look at.

>nothing that Homura did in Rebellion indicates a selfish desire to keep Madoka for herself
You might argue that it's a subconscious desire that Homura fundamentally knows is wrong and will never act upon. In the same way people may wish death upon another, but never actually make a murder attempt.
>Is she broken?
She absolutely is, psychologically. She may be quite functional and capable of reason, but she is deranged on some level.
>What you call obsession I call absolute dedication
It's both. Homura can only love so absolutely because she is broken, and that is why we admire her.

Psst.

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>5th is meta-context heavy
It's nothing more than an analysis of Homura not an aspect of her
>6th is allowing self-contradictions.
The same goes for this, but i also don't see self-contradictions, she is as consistent as you could possibly be.
now your separation of her into several "Homuras" is rather unfitting because they are just aspects of one you can not separate them because one builds on the other.
Mind my memory is rather hazy so excuse me if i missremember.
>Also, do you understand the full implications of the scenes before that?
I did interpret those and with it "Wer hat geträumt" as to that the world Homura has created is only a dream, in a figurative way, since the inevitable end is the breakthrough of the Law of Cycles, and in general the scenes have a depiction that if i remember right was used a the beginning when they were fighting the bad dream.
>Like, have you noticed that the picture of frozen Madoka before the end is blurry compared to one that appears earlier?
I fear i can't remember it or at least i don't remember what meaning it could have, it might mean that one half can not exist without the other.
>they are essential to Homura's character and the true nature of her world. And the possible interpretations of that.
Absolutely, it looks like i mistook what you meant with "not understanding rebellion", most people i know who don't understand it mean the basic plot and characters not the underlying meaning of the imagery.

>Do you think Homura cares about Sayaka or not, or is it ALL only for Madoka and Sayaka is only a "means to an end"? It's a contradicting underlying motivation.
You make it out to be a black and white issue which it isn't, Homura has and does attempt to save Sayaka and she does care about her, but her feelings for Madoka outweigh it absolutely leaving her to turn Sayaka into a "means to an end" that is not a contradiction it is a consequence of Homuras character development over the time she's spent on her quest

Homura fundamentally is a good and kind person but also broken and damaged.
She is holding herself back.
And she is holding herself together.
She also has poor social skills which make it all even worse.
Honestly, she desperately needs some hugs.

>Homura can only love so absolutely because she is broken
Oh, I wouldn't necessarily say that.
Something is bugging me about that sentence, as I don't necessarily think that this is something that can only happen to a broken person.
Look up the concepts of "Knightly love" and "Agape", they are actually quite fitting.
And again, I think this is valid, but it is not necessarily the single interpretation.

>i also don't see self-contradiction
The contradictions arise when we had debates about 1th Homura vs 3rd Homura on Yea Forums people are fundamentally incapable of understanding multicausal motivation is what I mean.

>It's nothing more than an analysis of Homura not an aspect of her
Oh, it actually is. Because this is another way her character motivation can be understood. A personification of individualism is acting out a principle in the world. And she definetly follows those principles, you also have a lot of philosophical monologue from Homura, so I think its entirely an aspect of her to follow her philosophical convictions to some degree. Like, Homura clearly demonstrates an understanding of relativism, that much is undeniable. Also, her own conflict with absurdism is interesting.

>as to that the world Homura has created is only a dream
Well, that would be a trivial interpretation, but I don't think it's quite that.
First, it's a reference to the opening monologue:
"In this irredeemable world (...) I DREAMT that I encountered that familiar smile once again..."
So it could mean that Homura was the one who dreamt.
Yet in the end, it's Madoka who is dreaming, as
"the guardian protects the sleep of the innocent"
I just don't think its the full picture, I feel like I missed something there.

>absolutely leaving her to turn Sayaka into a "means to an end"
Homura's actions in Rebellion demonstrate that she has put a lot of thought into how to make Sayaka happy.
Homura went out of her way to put Sayaka together with Kyouko, and to put her back into her peaceful life.
Why would she do that if she really saw her as a "means to an end"? She could have just gotten rid of her.

>Oh, it actually is. Because this is another way her character motivation can be understood.
I don't mean it that way, of course those aspects fit her, but they are not her.
I guess what i mean with it not being an aspect is because it is not a character aspect in the way i see the concept, it just takes all of her aspects and gains a conclusion ie her being a personification of individualism is not an inherent part of her but a consequence of her aspects, kinda as if you said that someone is evil because of certain aspects being evil is not an aspect but a conclusion pulled from the aspects (i guess unless you have cartoon tier writing where it is).
But this is merely semantics i guess.

>So it could mean that Homura was the one who dreamt.
You misinterpret what i wrote, it is not a literal dream but it has the fleeting aspect of a dream and of course the aspect of a dream being fake like the world Homura has forced onto the world.
>Yet in the end, it's Madoka who is dreaming, as
>"the guardian protects the sleep of the innocent"
I do see the point, that Homura is the guardian that protects the "dream" in which Madoka and co live, though it does feel comparatively lacking to me.
>I just don't think its the full picture, I feel like I missed something there.
This is absolutely natural, with a story that is not absolutely simplistic.
I just used those words as a response, if you read what i actually wrote then you'd recognize that she cares about Sayaka, what i referred to with "means to an end" is that Madoka takes priority at the cost of everything else, besides Sayakas happiness is inherently tied to Madokas happiness.
And someone being a means to an end only means that "a person can be used in ways that might be bad to get a certain goal", not "a person i will use and abuse and kill".
To be just a tad more autistic have a car analogy, A car is a means to an end but you would usually still treat it well unless you had no other choice.

>But this is merely semantics i guess.
My main point was that she is actively pondering those moral positions, and therefore THAT is a character aspect of her, but yea its semantics other than that.

>"the guardian protects the sleep of the innocent"
Oh, I forgot to mention that this is a direct quote form kimi no gin no niwa

>You misinterpret what i wrote, it is not a literal dream
No. I didn't claim that you said that, I get that it can be taken the way you say it. as the aspect of a dream being fake like the world Homura has forced onto the world

>what i referred to with "means to an end" is that Madoka takes priority at the cost of everything else
That is the LITERAL "means to an end". And your car analogy is fitting.
And that is where there is another possible interpretation:
Homura is actively deeply caring about all of them.
Like, Homura explicitly recognized and fixed both Mamis and Sayaka's worst issues.
Someone who regards them as cars would not do that.
Homura actually unironically cares about them.

>I don't necessarily think that this is something that can only happen to a broken person
Perhaps, but in Homura's case, it's specifically because she was broken before she met Madoka.
>"Knightly love" and "Agape"
These are applicable to Homura, but in a sort of de-romanticized yet re-romanticized sort of way. What would drive an individual to such absolute devotion to another at such a cost to herself? The sense that she has no worth beyond her devotion, that her existence is devotion. An unbroken individual could accept failure, failure is a part of human existence, but to Homura, to fail is to cease to exist. How could a logic be instilled except by breaking the self? We admire Homura because she carries her broken self to a noble, selfless end: purely the innocent happiness of another.

>Oh, I forgot to mention that this is a direct quote form kimi no gin no niwa
I assumed such a thing, but i can absolutely see how it could be applicable.
>Someone who regards them as cars would not do that.
I disagree, you will do your best to keep your car well just like Homura does her best to keep her friends well.
>Homura actually unironically cares about them.
Yes that's exactly what i said, and if being happy with Madoka were inherently unobtainable without the suffering of her other friends then Homura would choose that route, not because she doesn't care about her friends but because she cares far more about Madoka.
>That is the LITERAL "means to an end"
This is kinda embarrassing having reread the actual definition of it, i would rescind my usage of "means to an end", but i think the meaning i tried to show is quite obvious.

I think my main disagreement would be this:
Homura would sacrifice Sayaka any day to save Madoka.
BUT
Homura would not sacrifice Sayaka to be happy with Madoka.

So it’s Madoka > Sayaka > Herself
And you wouldn’t treat your car that way.

Ah yeah that is quite reasonable
>And you wouldn’t treat your car that way.
True, i failed to consider that angle

Are we enjoying Chapter 10 of MagiReco?

Homu's Harem is going to die.

Imagine being as literally mentally ill as you are.

See

Not necessarily, you can alter stuff in a way that it doesnt contradict anything, just gives it a new explanation, bleach did that a bunch of times

Yeah, Kevin-kun loved Homuhomu and Mami-san before Rebellion. Suddenly, he began to hate Akuma Homura after the release date and has repeatedly called 'Justice' as if he had loved Sayaka-chan since before. Poor Homuhomu! Literally, love was able to turn to hate! If you know he is like Sayaka-chan, you'd understand their relationship is HomuSaya 4 ever!

inb4 Apple is totally irrelevant to them!

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REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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Ya'll niggas take this all way too serious.

Rebellion also has a lot of weird shit involving Sayaka and Madoka too, mate.

If Madoka's wish was supposed to retcon Madoka from everyone's memories, and Homura remembers Madoka...

Is it your first day on Yea Forums, or the internet for that matter?

absolutely_disgusting.png

Underrated post.

Not to mention that Homura explicitly has a monologue wherein she expresses sympathy for Mami. Some people try to write off Homura as some kind of sociopath, where she's really just ambivalent. Obviously she's frustrated at the other girls for constantly being wrenches in her works, but they're all in the same boat as Madoka, as Homura herself was. They're ignorant girls with innocent wishes that come back to haunt them, who just simply aren't cut out to be thrown in such a situation. Homura may not trust them, but she has her own feelings towards them beyond merely seeing them as factors in Madoka's happiness.

read this book before you talk shit about rebellion

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Technically that was retconned in the recap movies, and then carried over to Rebellion.

I absolutely adore Rebellion, but I don't see how it WASN'T a retcon. In the series, they make it out as if Madoka becoming the LoC means completely ceasing to exist. To become nothing more than some sort of "timeless concept". And that the girls saved by the LoC also merely ceased to exist. There was never any indication of there being some sort of "magical girl heaven", yet in Rebellion, Madoka, Sayaka and Nagisa are all clearly separate entities that physically descend from heaven to pick up Homura. It's like they can't decide if she's an abstract concept or if she's a goddess residing in heaven.

I dislike the retcon, because it removes a large part of Madoka's suffering, and therefore also devalues Homura's decision to drag her back down. Yes, becoming an abstract concept and ceasing to exist seems awful, but playing around with your friends in magical girl heaven might not be as bad.

I wondered about this too actually. I was under the impression that Madoka just purified then released the magical girls' souls from the gem, while she herself existed entirely alone. Then with Rebellion it seemed like she was taking everyone to go party in valhalla. If that was the case it makes Homura's actions at the end of Rebellion look wayyyy more selfish.

They cease to exist as individuals, instead existing as a collective. They appear as individuals in Rebellion because Homura's barrier is divorced from the physical world.

what makes you say that?

Taking the "conceptual existence" with all the Buddhist parallels.

What about the scene towards the end, when they go to pick up Homura? That all takes place outside of the barrier.

Visual metaphor to emphasize perspective. Consider Sayaka's death in the TV series for a more literal depiction of how that would look.

Didn't sayaka just get nuked by kyoko?
Fuck do I need to rewatch the series for the third time this year?

Sayaka's death in the final episode.

With her and Madoka in the auditorium?

Can someone please post that official art of sayaka where it's showing a bit of her pantsu please!

In the Madokaverse, she disappeared after using up her magic fighting some random wraiths with Kyouko, Mami, and Homura.

I mean the actual instant she died, from the perspective of Kyoko, Mami, and Homura.

>No nothing

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I remember now, thanks

Movie 3 was a mistake and I hate that there will be more.

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Just going to ask one more time...Hopefully some kind user out there may have it...

Must fap to Sayaka!

Why Sayaka?

I dunno user. Blue hair...and that picture that I'm speaking of, she's laying back with her legs up with Kyoko in the picture as well...just a little bit of her panties are exposed; first time I have seen that from the character designer. It's just too fucking hot. I accidentally deleted a lot of my pictures and it was among them, sadly...

Also, why NOT Sayaka? She's incredibly cute!

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No do not do that

I guess she is cute. I hope you find that image one day, I've never seen it.

I just scrolled through the entirety of Zerochan looking for it, with no luck. Oh well. ;_;

Here's a cute Madoka.

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That sounds familiar, I probably have it but I'm not at my home computer, sorry user.

Why do you think that? It was even better than the tv series

Are you sure it wasn't Madoka's panties

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DIS HABBENING

twitter.com/magireco/status/1102494570779049984

Thanks anyhow user.

Absolutely positive it was Sayakas.

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Like who is this even for? Here, I was holding my breath that, if it were to exist at all, it'd be some Carnival Phantasm like thing.

What's up with yurifags and Madoka? I understand "shipping" Homura and Madoka, but I see a bunch of other stuff that has very little basis in the plot like Sayaka and Kyoko. Pic related is the only remotely romantic thing between the two.

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o ic nvm i'm a huge faggot

lmaoing at those jap twitter posts

That picture is all people really needed. Sayaka and Kyoko do have chemistry imo, it's just not really explored before they both die. Then you have the confirmation in Rebellion during the battle with Homura.

Thank you for the cutie user

What do you think about Akemi Homura's tight body?

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Hot but nothing next to Madoka

I wish they never showed Naruto with friends after establishing he was always alone. So dumb.

Perfect for carrying Madoka's babies

>$hinbo : Hey, Gen-chan, I really like Sayaka, can we keep her alive
>Gen : No, that would break the point of the story.
>year later
>$hinbo : How about I do, anyway?

>Nothing indicates Homura is selfish

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If it's worse than what was there I don't like it. If it's better I do.

user, that art is terrible.

Touka, Ui and Nemu including Alina are GOOD GIRLS who did NOTHING wrong.

Literally who?

>cute Sayaka
Now that's a retcon

Eh, it isn't like she raped Madoka or anything

no, you

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Fuck Rebellion was amazing

Pic unrelated? Rebellion didn't retcon anything.

Sayaka did nothing wrong

God I wanna fuck Sayaka.

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I would rather be a Iroha and have a JS harem.

psot your art now

Can we post more cute megucas?

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This. Some people are just too retarded to understand multifaceted characters.

I want to fuck Homura and then take responsibility

Loses all appeal without the pantyhose

I will compose a haiku!

庭の椅子　蛙濡れる　夢心地
niwa no isu / kawazu nureru / yumegokochi

a lawnchair
a flog gets wet
in a trance

Theme: Kleshas

I cited a famous haiku from Matsuo Bashō

古池や　蛙飛びこむ　水の音
furu ike ya / kawazu tobikomu / mizu no oto

an ancient pond
a frog jumps in
the splash of water

Theme: Wabi-sabi

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsuo_Bashō

this

MadoSaya > KyoSaya

Kelvin scale > Kapplin

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So rape is the only act that Homura can do that you would consider selfish?
That's and awfully stupid bar to set.

Okay

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