Why did Bleach fell off? Naruto also got progressively shittier since the Chuunin Exams and it's still popular

Why did Bleach fell off? Naruto also got progressively shittier since the Chuunin Exams and it's still popular.

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>japanese ghostbusters slowly turns into an isekai adventure
>ninjas that use martial arts slowly turn into wizards in chakra gundams

Author exhausted his resources and can't come up with new ideas you've practically answered your own question.

Bleach is all style, no substance. And even then, his art lacks backgrounds, his characters suffer from sameface syndrome and the designs are boring. The color pages showed us that he has a good understanding of fashion, but he never implemented it into the series.

I think in the case of Bleach and Naruto, both stories ran longer than what their authors originally planned out, so beyond the initial story arc they start to need making shit up as they go along. Some authors, like Oda, are better at it than others. After a strong start and early mid section, Kubo stumbled a lot as things went on and unused plot hooks made it overly apparent that he made up the story on the fly. Kishi went about it a bit better, but he also didn't manage to pull the story together as well as the parts he set up needed him to. In hind sight, I think he made several mistakes in using and reusing the story assets that he set up, considering where he ultimately wanted(?) to end up.

We'll never really know, but I'd love to hear the story how and why things went as the did, when the mangaka actually wanted to end things and what parts of the developed story were influenced by outside forces, be it fate or the editorial department, whether they had a vision and wanted to stick with it, or whether they simply did their job and went where market demands took them.

Bleach had good mystery, until it became apparent that it wasn't mystery at all and just 'let you fill in the blanks' while making up more shit just to sell another copy.
Ichigo = everything is a terrible character development concept, Kubo did a lot of things that completely derailed potential interesting avenues.

Gintama is getting a new anime and it's not even popular. Suck it, if your show is absolute garbage it gets canceled

Character Clusterfuck Crisp! Now with marshmallow captains!

Naruto had retarded wizard/ninja battles to keep teenagers entertained.

What did Bleach have? Ichigo using tetsuga tenshou for 300 chapters? A bunch of jobber side characters with equally as boring abilities?

Bleach had a perfect ending, when Ichigo beat Aizen.

The story after felt like Kubo was made to keep going.

>all the hate towards bleach
what the fuck happened to neo Yea Forums?

Bleach ended after Hueco Mundo, when Ichigo went though the time tunnel and killed butterfly Aizen. But Kubo kept going for some reason and Ichigo became everything magical under the sun

They are all newfags that came here after watching some eceleb say it cool to shit on bleach

>Ichigo loses powers
>Says his goodbye to Rukia
>"Bleach my Soul"
End of the Aizen arc was 1000% meant to be the ending.

>all style, no substance
This "criticism" ironically lacks substance

I'm glad you ignored the other part of my post.

Because it was billed as an urban fantasy. It needs the gritty modern-day heroics to contrast with the abstract samurai aesthetic, but near the end it started focusing on just the latter.

The rest of your post lacked substance

Your post lacks substance because you didn't even try to refute my points, weak.

>story about odd yet enriching friendship
>ends with friends never seeing each other again
No.

Your post lacks substance because it doesnt have any points

Why tho, Gintama is crap

Ichigo's interactions with the world and the antagonists are all the same after the Soul Society arc. It's the reason that Dragon Ball Super sucks ass right now: repeating the same story over and over again for the sake of seeing the characters power up and fight. Since the Soul Society arc the audience had no reason to give a shit about the story besides seeing what happened to Aizen, kind of like how a lot of people dropped out of Naruto and only tuned in to see what happened to Sasuke, Naruto, or the Akatsuki.

Ichigos desire to protect was a more prominent theme than muh friendship. Ichigo was able to protect everyone. He won and thanked Rukia because she was what started it all for him.

>Ichigo's interactions with the world and the antagonists are all the same after the Soul Society arc
Wrong

Your post would have substance if you had at least proven why there is no point to that user

Memes aren't points user

Im watching for the first time, really loving it so far, skipping all the filler obv. Im at the flashbacks where we find out how kisuke and all the vizards got fucked by Aizen. I kinda wish we could get a sequel series that just focused on Gotei 13 and some arrancar. I love the interactions between the captains.

I will say tho it feels like 40% of what I've watched is a recap of what happened before like wtf

>author forget characters
>retarded power levels
>fights are basically 2 guys throwing nuclear bombs at each others
>no strategy
>no tactics
>no suspense

>user is a speedreader
>user is a brainlet

Bleach is a masterpiece, those who can't see it are just low IQ.
It has a lot of soul and ichigo is fun

Because there were still plotlines obviously waiting to be resolved, so there was a reason to come back to it to see how they conclude. With Bleach it felt like everything important was done and dealt with after the Aizen stuff.

>hyperfaggot defending bleach

>ultranigger shitting on bleach

Show me where are the REAL tactics and strategy then. Show me where you felt the main cast could really die. Retarded fanboy.

Author slowly became less familiar with his own work and his characters' motivations.

Characters don’t learn from their mistakes, get handed power-ups for no reason just to job on the next page. Villains are meme-tier cardboard cutouts with no proper motivation or believable end goal. Powers are inconsistent, fights are terribly written, story and lore are rife with holes.

This, especially going after the "no backgrounds" is the mark of a true pleb.

brainlets

>when a brainlet can't refute the actual argument but his ego got so rustled he can't help but reply
kek

>implying any of (you) have any actual argument

We still had RG and SK introduced, with Aizen's "last words" directly referencing him, Isshin's backstory which was also hinted at resolution later, and the same with Ryuuken. There was still lots of stuff. And Bleach's popularity decline stated in the arrancar arc, though in the west (based on the general attitude in the internet) earlier than in Japan (based on sales).

By the final parts of Bleach it seemed that WSJ wasn't promoting it as much, or rather, getting the promotion a series with it's sales would normally get.
there are some rumors that say that Kubo didn't get along with WSJ higher ups and is no secret that Oda is at odds with him to say the least
the source of most of this claims could very well be my ass but I'm just throwing that out
after seeing how Bleach was mostly neglected for a solid year/ year and a half after the ending I wouldn't confirm it, but it's still rather suspicious

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Even if I list them you'd just speedread through my reply like you did with the manga. Have this (You)

List them you faggot.

Is there any credible explanation of bleach's power scaling? Why Ichigo can beat Kenpachi in the Soul Society arc but captains are somehow still relevant 3 arcs later?

Have another (You)

Kenpachi was unconsciously holding back on Ichigo. And we only saw like 3 captains go all out in SS

The funny thing is, Bleach was never really good to begin with. The reason why so many people praise a mediocre arc like SS, is because they are too jaded by the later, somehow even shittier arcs.

No world building.
Or rather, massive gaps in the world building.

No, Bleach dropped the popularity that was the Arrancars in order to wrap up the story about the Quincy.

Naruto stretched out the Akatsuki from a few arcs to practically every arcline.

>Kazekage arc feature Deidara and Sasori
>Immortal arc features Hidan and Kakazu
>Uchiha arc features Itachi, Kisame and Daidara
>Pain arc features Pain and Konan
>Gokage arc features Obito with a little Zetsu
>Tailed Beast features Kisame
>Final arc features Obito and Zetsu (along with clones)

Bleach dropped the arrancars after the end of part 1 and focused on different enemies (Quincy) which aren't the popular characters but still well established

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You're more than a faggot.
You're a hyper-plus-ultra-mega-gigantic-nigger-faggot.

>unconsciously holding back

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>thread on page 10
>bumps it
>being this underage

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>if a thread is below a certain threshold, you're not allowed to bump it regardless of your interest in the thread itself
>actively remaining in a thread you have so little interest in you would like it to 404

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Retard

>actively remaining in a thread
The catalog is your friend
Cope

Is there a manga that's more unjustly hated than Bleach? Every criticism of Bleach can be applied equally to every other Shounen manga imaginable.

Naruto's pilot was a gag manga. Jump wants ideas shot at them until there's one they like at a time they're ready for it, an editor starts jabbing them into whatever direction they see fit, and then it's just "go now and stay afloat for as long as you can." Not that the editor wasn't right in Naruto's case. but it makes that initial window of having ideas at the ready even worse.

Yeah sadly it is. Even nardo threads are more civil than this and that's the second shittiest written thing in writing history.

The author was always more about the character design and art of the manga than the actual story and got burned out when he couldn't come up with new ideas, extending on this anons comment.

>pls just let this thread die, I don't want to see Bleach criticized

>pls dont let this thread die, shitting on Bleach is the only thing in my life

Aside from Aizen got a lot of them to get off their assess since it seems like for the most part there had been little to no true threat to SS for thousands of years. Plus, not every enemy is top top tier power and as long as there's not an insane Reiatsu gap like Aizen and Soi Fon or early SS Ichigo and Kenpachi, ability > powerlevel. Shunsui beat Starrk because he's a dirty fighter and has a broken ability, despite the power difference. That's just how things go in Bleach and quite frankly that's what makes it fun.

Shitposting =! criticism

Criticism implies evidence

You retards can't criticize something that has almost nothing to hate. Stop forcing all your autism on things that you intentionally or simply can't comprehend.

For all the talk, I wonder if kubo went straight from Aizen to Quincies with no fullbring in between would the anime have survived?

Also wasnt bleach vs Ulq the peak of popularity? You can talk about shit quality but Aizen and the Espada were when bleach was at its most popular

As far as shonen goes, Bleach is a pleb filter. That's why you always see dumb shit like
>muh no backgrounds

every thread, because people just regurgitate shit and don't read the actual manga. Also the culture gap is fairly high with the buddhist and shinto stuff that's not really readily obvious to western readers. Some of that shit is downright poetic.

I'm not sure, Bleach's sales and anime ratings were declining even earlier, and by that point Kubo killed two out of three actually popular antagonists (Ulq and Gin).

Also, despite regaining some sales numbers initially with hype, last arc lost all of this and more with the time.

>Aizen to the Quincy
>Anime would have survived

No, the anime was already out the door because of the filler arcs. It's been well documented that the viewership dropped in 2006 (Bount Arc), 2008 (Princess Arc), later 2009 to early 2010 (Zanpakutou Rebellion) and later 2011 (Regai Arc). The anime adaptation was doomed due to filler killing the anime, not Kubo

Also Kubo's manga only declined naturally after Aizen because he stopped using the popular thing that spiked up the sales of Bleach in the first place AKA the Arrancars.

However, the TYBW sold an average of 450K to 500K per initial weekend. Why do you think the manga lasted for 20 volumes? If Kubo's sales had been poor or lackluster, the higher ups would have cut it back 8-9 volumes into the final arc.

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It's really a shame. Last arc really went off the rails with pacing. Kubo tried to do way too much at once and wasted way too much time with Mask. I'm just going to assume that's what did it. That or not having the balls to kill Byakuya. Or actually having the balls to kill Byakuya but lost all the fujo support and couldn't get it back by the time he made it so he survived.

But I don't know though to be honest. If the JET artbook showed us anything, Bleach still has a lot of people who like it, or at least want to support Kubo's art.

Fuck you Mask was a lad

>wasted way too much time with Mask.
Mask was like 3 chapters tops, not even the longest Sternritter fight.

>No, the anime was already out the door because of the filler arcs.
I wouldn't be so sure. Arrancar saga's end looks like a natural ending point, if they went for animating fullbring, that means they likely still had faith Bleach could regain some of what it lost. Even if it was during fillers that tanked the ratings, you also have the fact that canon didn't manage to pick up the popularity.

By the way, one fun fact I remember is the last episode with good rating being a standalone filler about 11th division OC. To this day I don't know if it was a mistake on a site archiving them or what.

>Mask was like 3 chapters tops
Three chapters was Renji alone, prior to that you had Vizards and lieutenents jobbing I think.

Nah, anime teams will keep adapting shit till their viewership is in the shitcan. Long running series didn't do the Gintama thing of taking breaks or seasonal anime like now till recently.

That's why filler arcs exist. Dragonball created the slow running, filler arc storytelling anime adaptation and other anime adaptations just picked up the filler arc part while quickening up the pace.

If Bleach was built like a seasonal anime, or at the least took breaks like Gintama, it would have adapted the entire series.

>Three chapters was Renji alone,
I highly doubt that. He showed up at the end of a chapter after the Visards jobbed, went Bankai the next chapter, and Mask was dead by the beginning of the third before moving on to As Nodt and Rukia.

This is definitely the worst fanbase

Cope

>Worst fanbase
>Ignoring Naruto and Boruto
>ignoring MHA
>ignoring Black Clover

The Naruto centric fanbase is such idiocy

>OUR manga is perfect! No one can actually hate Bleach! All of the criticisms are just people that are jealous! And we're also the best people!

>totally not a horrible fanbase

>Why did Bleach fell off?
anything without aizen was shit

>t. every fanbase anywhere on the internet

Aizen was like a sponge sucking interest out of the manga, he was too perfect and KS was so broken it killed any tension knowing there'd be no way of defeating him, even worse after the Hougyoku gave him even more power.

>black clover
???
That fanbase is pretty chill. Anyway, the worst fanbase on Yea Forums are Hiatusfags

Naruto just didn't crash and burn as hard as Bleach did.

>didn't crash and burn as hard as Bleach did
>Naruto constantly retconned itself
>Naruto used awful characters to progress the plot
>Naruto is a self made hypocrite of his own story and was born to be Hokage

Nah, it's actually because of this The amount of Akatsuki members that were stretched out for 7 arc lines shows that so called "popularity" is just based around a single group of antagonists.

>pirate adventure slowly turns into uncovering world conspiracy and Armageddon prophecy
Chad Piece

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>people liked the Soul Society arc
>so Kubo just did it again but with an orange girl
Absolute madman.

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>Slowly

Yeah, that's definitely One Piece.

>Did it again
Dude, that's a B plot that lasted for 4 volumes.

Other manga have done far more with that kind of logic

>Dragonball featured a tournament arc every other storyline with Jackie Chun, Tien and Piccolo Jr.

>Yu Yu Hakusho features 3 tournament arcs with Genkai tournament arc, Dark Tournament and Underworld Tournament

>One Piece now has 4 female rescue arc storylines with Nami (Arlong Pirate), Vivi (Baroque Works), Nico Robin (CP9) and the upcoming Boa Hancock (Celestial Dragons).

Bleach using the invasion storyline as a B plot is NOTHING compared to what those major manga did and got away with.

>b-but other mangas

Cope

You don't have an arguement. If you are going to argue that Bleach didn't come up with something "original" for a B plot, then by that logic you have to shit on all of those other stories that not only did the same thing but did it much worse because they either turned entire major plotlines or arcs into the same repetition.

Don't forget Naruto with the Sasuke rescue arc and the Gaara rescue arc

that too. Other manga have gone and done much worse and yet somehow Bleach is the one that is not "original"

To be fair that swerve pretty much happened the moment Crocodile and Nico Robin showed up.
Man I wish Robin did more stuff in One Piece

That may very well be and it reminds me of something. An user in another manga thread once asked why any author would go for Magazine or Sunday over Jump and after thinking a bit about it a bit, I think the answer is that if you want to "make it big" you go for Jump and if you want to tell a story (and don't need the money anymore), you go to one of the other mags. If you're lucky, you may get to tell "your story" in Jump, but if you're an author and your motivation goes beyond "I wanna sell a fuckton of whatever" then I think it would be foolhardy to try and tell your story in WSJ, since it may get axed at a moments notice. See Naoshi Komi and "his dream project" Double Arts. Should have done the cashgrabby Nisekoi right off the bat and waited with Double Arts once he was set for life. OTOH see Suzuki Nakaba and his Seven Deadly Sins for someone who did the smart approach. Probably less editorial meddling as well.

it's not "the one," it is "one of"

Bleach guy here but

Oda is too busy throwing every job on Nico Robin though:

>you need to train with Luffy's dad and the Revolutionary arme
>you need to translate all the red poneogliphs to get to the island
>you need to translate the 100 Year gap that is on the island
>you need to find out the truth about what Gol D. Roger discovered about the world

Oda has been throwing job after job on Nico Robin

Gintama has fujo appeal
Bleach doesn't.

>who is Hitsugaya?

JoJo and YYH are more popular now

No, it's because Gintama constantly goes off the air with hiatuses instead of constantly dealing with filler arcs.

Bleach ran continuously with filler arcs which hurt the viewership.

People would rather wait for the actual good stories to come back after being off the air than deal with filler bombardment

Young fujos grew out of shota phase after maturity.

This. And if Kubo really wanted to, he could have written an epilogue where years later Ichigo is finally able to reunite with Rukia either by having his powers return or have him die and be reborn in Soul Society naturally or something.

Do mangakas get a say on the running model of the anime adaptations? Did Hori tell bones to make it season? Did Tabata tell pierrot to make it a long runner?

Hey I'm Bob Mushashi and I'm an anime expert here to answer your question nobody on this board has anything more than secondhand knowledge relating to any part of the anime/manga industry, anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you

Not really. Kubo didn't have actual imput until much later because he got so pissed off at the continuity errors that he started requesting for the original scripts to be sent to him to be revised.

He flat out stated that the original Perriot scripts would get so bad that he got sick to his stomach.

Anime adaptations have just evolved extremely slowly into seasonal anime with remnants of the past like Black Clover staying behind.

I'm curious whether Oda initially had the overarching story (void century, world conspiracy, etc.) thought out as he went in or whether he just winged it and was just better at writing than most others. While it would benefit the story to have the grand plot laid out already, it would go to waste if the series doesn't survive. From outside, it seems to me that the usual Jump approach is to take a small concept and do non-comital mini arcs to see whether it lands, then at some point the editorial department tells you that you've got a potential long term hit on your hands and you're allowed to begin a big arc now. For Naruto it was the Chuunin exam and for Bleach it was the Soul Society arc. One Piece was probably them approaching the grand line via Loguetown.

Yeah. If you can manage to make it big on something throw away (not to make it sound easy), you can set yourself up better for anything that follows. Not only just being far less concerned with cancellation, but you have more weight to throw around discussing your contract and keeping the editors under control. But it's a crapshoot banking on any of that coming to fruition.

Bleach at least was smart to introduce a number of major problems in the story early on with backstory, conflict and motivation. Most manga artists don't think that far ahead and ask themselves where he's going to go with said manga.

Oda has admited that he added small things to the story that ended up spiraling out of control. There are 7 warlords of the sea because 7 sounded cool. So he had to make an arc for each of them. The 11 supernovas were added on a whim with only Kidd having his part in the story planed, Law ended up playing such a big role because he was popular

Kubo was a god at character design and fashion. I loved all the images of the characters dressed in regular clothes or wearing clothes to match certain themes.

a manlet who doesn't have a popular pairing for fujos to cream over

No. It was always great and it only got better. Whatever "dip" in quality you may think happened it's Jump's fault.

Naruto was always mediocre, so its fans didn't notice much difference.

Bleach had a fantastic arc, SS, but later the series got very mediocre, even more than Naruto

Probably because Bleach ended so unsatisfyingly while Naruto ended at least somewhat reasonably well.

>Naruto ended at least somewhat reasonably well.
Said no one ever

Did you get your favorites this banner Bleach bros?

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>ended somewhat resonably
>3 incoherent final villains
>created gaiden to blab about Kaguya
>created THe Last movie which is chapter 699.5
>created Boruto: A naruto movie talking about Otosuki Clan
>Shitty sequel series nobody asked for

Nobody except Naruto fanboys would say such a thing.

Bleach was rushed in it's final battle due to Kubo getting extremely sick that he needed surgery on his left tendon and Shueshia getting obsessive with Naruto. However, Kubo didn't want to make Bleach into more than those stories.

I mean the events of Naruto reached their logical conclusion where as Bleach left lot of things untouched and forgotten. Like for example where did Chad's powers come from and how did they manifest and etc. There's just way too many unanswered and sidetracked things from Bleach

>Where did Chad's power come from and how did it manifest

Fullbring already explained how that power in general works.

Try harder next time.

>I mean the events of Naruto reached their logical conclusion

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>Like for example where did Chad's powers come from
Kubo explained it though. Three times. Each one different.

> the events of Naruto reached their logical conclusion
Yeah, the status quo of ninja villages raising a new generation of child soldiers to kill each other.

>Like for example where did Chad's powers come from and how did they manifest and etc.
This was explained several times throughout the manga...

>Kubo explained it though. Three times. Each one different.

Well different at the time but each one builds off the one before it.

>Each one different
Incorrect

I think Kubo's game plan early on was really sound and it worked out really well up to the Aizen reveal at the end of the SoulSociety arc. Somewhere during Mexico arc his grasp slipped though. It seemed there that his pacing became really wonky with inordinate time spent on fights and characters. Don't know whether he tried to accommodate for character popularity (Hitsugaya) or he went outside of the scope he had planned out and he was stalling for time. His ability to pace his story never really recovered though and he began to forget about plot hooks that he had sown and didn't really know how to further use early characters like Tatsuki or Ichigo's sisters.

Interesting. It seems Oda is a meticulous enough writer to juggle all that stuff and make it still seem somewhat cohesive and lucky enough that OP got big enough that he has the room to tell all that story as elaborately as he wants to. More so that his health is playing along, which is also a big part of it. IIRC Kubo suffered from some health issues during Bleach. Anyone got some insights on that and how it affected Bleach?

They were completely different explanations all the time and didn't make coherent sense. Then there's issues like does Tatsuki ever manifest something that can let her detect hollows better because she was slowly shown at being able to detect them but then ends up completely forgotten.

>Yeah, the status quo of ninja villages raising a new generation of child soldiers to kill each other.
While it's not uncommon for Shonen heroes to start out as a children, Naruto really takes it up a notch.

>They were completely different explanations all the time and didn't make coherent sense
Chad had the potential to become a Fullbringer due to Hollow power inherited maternally, awoken in part by the Hougyoku reacting to Ichigo's reiatsu. Literally nothing contradictory here.

>Then there's issues like does Tatsuki ever manifest something that can let her detect hollows better because she was slowly shown at being able to detect them but then ends up completely forgotten.
Low spiritual ability as a result of contact with Ichigo. It wasn't forgotten because she could see Aizen, Shunsui, ect.

>There's just way too many unanswered and sidetracked things from Bleach
You are correct yet somehow still picked something that was clearly explained as example. Impressive.

>Yeah, the status quo of ninja villages raising a new generation of child soldiers to kill each other.
War and history repeats itself.

>all ninja conflict result of chakra aliens from a millenia ago
>Kaguya killed by asspulls
>nothing changes

Gee how satisfying

Waiting for CFYOW banner

>he began to forget about plot hooks that he had sown
Such as?
>and didn't really know how to further use early characters like Tatsuki or Ichigo's sisters.
They didn't have further use

>Chad had the potential to become a Fullbringer due to Hollow power inherited maternally, awoken in part by the Hougyoku reacting to Ichigo's reiatsu. Literally nothing contradictory here.
I don't recall it ever being explained as some sort of inherited maternal power. And if it was then the contradiction here is was this power actually manifestation of exposure to Ichigo's reiatsu or something that was an inherent bloodline ability. I'll admit I don't remember events of Bleach 100% because lot of things in that were scattered all over the place.

>>ninjas that use martial arts slowly turn into wizards in chakra gundams
this is honestly the most badass description of Naruto I've ever seen

A giant war happens and some people die, people go home and try and teach the new generation to be better but they end up repeating the mistakes of the elders. It's a cycle. Point is that everything leading up to the point at least had some coherent point you could follow along without having too many unanswered and sidetracked things.

>I don't recall it ever being explained as some sort of inherited maternal power.
Xcution arc, very early on when Ginjou explains his ability.

>the contradiction here is was this power actually manifestation of exposure to Ichigo's reiatsu or something that was an inherent bloodline ability
As I explained above, Chad had the potential within him, Ichigo's reiatsu combined with the hougyoku was the spark that awakened said power. The Hougyoku can only give you power you already had the potential to use, and responds to powerful reiatsu.

>I'll admit I don't remember events of Bleach 100% because lot of things in that were scattered all over the place.
Consider reading more carefully in the future.

I will admit my memory of Bleach isn't exactly as precise as it used to be, I really just remember lot of things being unanswered and I was just confused by the end of it all.

>everything just repeats itself despite the efforts of the protagonist
This is the opposite of a satisfying ending.

Did I say anythign about a satisfying ending? I said the ending reached their logical conclusions.

More of an illogical conclusion, but at least we agree it was dogshit regardless.

>Xcution arc, very early on when Ginjou explains his ability.
>As I explained above, Chad had the potential within him, Ichigo's reiatsu combined with the hougyoku was the spark that awakened said power. The Hougyoku can only give you power you already had the potential to use, and responds to powerful reiatsu.
I thought their powers were only to manipulate the soul energy of objects.
>Consider reading more carefully in the future.
It's not the reading that's the issue, it's just my memory and recollection of it all after it all ended is a blur. Seeing as i'm facing multiple viewpoints of the same explanation it just appears I really don't remember the explanation of it that clearly if it did happen so my fault I guess. I do still maintain that there's other issues with Bleach like the pacing and many other stuff that went unanswered and sidetracked.

There's really nothing illogical about it. The big bad is going to fuck everything up, people have to put aside their petty squabbles to deal with the greater threat. Big bad is dealt with and people want a better generation but still have to deal with more petty squabbles again.

>I thought their powers were only to manipulate the soul energy of objects.
As a result of their mothers being attacked by Hollows.

>It's not the reading that's the issue, it's just my memory and recollection of it all after it all ended is a blur.
Then re-read the manga, you might find there's a lot you missed. I agree with pacing being a problem in certain arcs.

>Such as?

Remember the shadows that Mayuri found in Aizen's lab at the end of HM? Remember the endless speculation about their significance back then? Remember Hallibel in Ywach's sex dungeon? There's other stuff as well, some minor, some not, some seem to have gotten resolved half-assedly so fans would stop asking about them, like Grand Fisher.

>They didn't have further use

Didn't have to be written that way. The amount of questions people had about when they'd become relevant again, especially after their involvement early on. For instance, Tatsuki being a secondary emotional pillar for Orihime to confide in would have done wonders for her fan reception before and during the HM arc, when it was mostly "Kurosaki-kun". The "princess and dragon" dynamic from early on in the manga could have been spun on, but wasn't. Kubo sets a lot of stuff up, without a game plan to actually use it later on and it's not always handled elegantly.

>Remember the shadows that Mayuri found in Aizen's lab at the end of HM?
Privarron Espada, they show up in TYBW

>Remember Hallibel in Ywach's sex dungeon?
Hence why Nel and Grimmjow agreed to help Kisuke rescue her.

>Didn't have to be written that way.
Shoehorning them into the battle segments of the manga would have been even worse. Not everyone needs a superpower to be part of the manga.

Just finished Bleach after dropping it a couple years ago.

Everything went to shit after Aizen got defeated. The Shinigami and the Hollows all had decently defined rules that Kubo followed. However, everything go thrown out the window with the Fullbring and Quincy BS that went "lol my powers are whatever I want".

You could tell that Kubo didn't give a shit anymore especially in the later parts of the Quincy arc when all sorts of characters jobbed and then got random powerups up the ass. Hello, we didn't even get to see the Bankai of the other 4 Division 0 members before they bit the dust offscreen.

Attached: Yamamoto Jobbing.png (765x574, 318K)

>Then re-read the manga, you might find there's a lot you missed.
Don't do this to me please user, i'm an old man now. I was 17 when I first started reading it and the series ended just in my 30's. I don't know if I can go back on this ride again. I only have a finite amount of time and only so many mangos to read.

Attached: 1495683462313.jpg (1080x985, 170K)

>The Shinigami and the Hollows all had decently defined rules that Kubo followed. However, everything go thrown out the window with the Fullbring and Quincy BS that went "lol my powers are whatever I want".

Aizen had the single most broken ability in the entire manga at Shikai level, just saying.

Okay then don't ask questions about plot points you don't remember correctly...

>Okay then don't ask questions about plot points you don't remember correctly...
But if I don't ask the questions then I won't find the answers user.

>Remember the shadows that Mayuri found in Aizen's lab at the end of HM?
Those were the corpses of Cirucci, Luppi and Dordoni. They showed up in the TYBW arc
>Remember Hallibel in Ywach's sex dungeon?
Rescued by Nel after she rescued Urahara and company from Askin´s poison ball. Source: the novels
>Didn't have to be written that way
I doesnt have to be written the way you say either. More not always is better

The answers are in the manga you allegedly read...?

That was a long time ago, i'd rather just ask people with better memory than I.

>"lol my powers are whatever I want"
How is that applicable?
>muh job
Yaaawn

Yamamoto didn't even job, literally no one could 1v1 him without relying on cheap tactics.

Yeah, but the big bad having stupidly OP illusion powers are better than every single mook having a random unexplainable power (somehow linked to an alphabet) that can do anything from making zombies to having the power to IMAGINE anything.

Attached: Superstar BS Power.png (550x817, 360K)

>every single mook having a random unexplainable power
And thats different from the shinigami and arrancars how?

>every single mook having a random unexplainable power

They were neither random nor unexplainable, at least no less than any other given power in Bleach. Even the powers you just mentioned had defined rules regarding their use. It seems you're using buzzwords to assert your opinion instead of coming up with a logical argument.

Not that guy but:

1. Quincy powers went full blown Jojo Stands instead of going power levels

2. Quincy with access to the final release form are considered stronger at a base level than a Captain Rank Soul Reaper with a Bankai. Soul Society arc established this with Uryu vs Mayuri

3. Tite Kubo threw out power levels after it went too far in a few places in the Fake Karakura Town War arc.

>Aizen had the single most broken ability in the entire manga at Shikai level, just saying.
I don't know, Yawach and The Almighty might have dethroned Kyouka Suigetsu. For all the talk about how Bleach is full of asspulls, no one ever seems to mention the one actual asspull of the series with that silver arrowhead since the Almighty had almost no reasonable method of counter except Book of the End and Kyouka Suigetsu. With Aizen, you could at least tell it was him if you manage to touch his sword or avoid looking at the thing.

>no one ever seems to mention the one actual asspull of the series with that silver arrowhead
It is mentioned, often.

Yamamoto blew his load on a literal who and then got one-shotted by Yhwach.

Besides the monk Division 0, the supposed strongest, got killed offscreen without a chance to Bankai.

The Valkyrie dude which got chapters of buildup in a fight against 3 captain classes got killed because Yhwach decided to absorb all the powers.

Attached: Division Who.png (545x784, 313K)

Because Bleach is very different than Naruto. A a very dedicated fan can probably take Kishimoto's place and continue. But Bleach can only be done by Kubo alone.

>1. Quincy powers went full blown Jojo Stands instead of going power levels
And Thats bad?
>2. Quincy with access to the final release form are considered stronger at a base level than a Captain Rank Soul Reaper with a Bankai. Soul Society arc established this with Uryu vs Mayuri
What? Base level? Uryuu destroyed Mayuri´s Bankai while in Letzt Stil form. And you are assuming all captains are on the same level of power as Mayuri, and that none of them got stronger since the SS arc.
>3. Tite Kubo threw out power levels after it went too far in a few places in the Fake Karakura Town War arc.
What does this even mean?

>Yamamoto blew his load on a literal who and then got one-shotted by Yhwach.
A "literal who" who was an exact replica of Yhwach- like I said, cheap tactics to expose Yama's Bankai.

I think Kubo was trying to tell a good story at first, but that lasted until the editors forced byakuya back to life because the fans were screeching, then kubo just gave up, everything bad in the thousand year arc came after that, fans favorite like zaraki, byakuya and iceboy jobbed for multiple chapters with Gerard shitting all over them, ichigo jobbing multiple times even after getting a new bankai, kyoraku only winning his battle because he had some god slaying sword, and by pure coincidence his enemy was a god type, unohana dying jus so zaraki could job to Gerard, Gremmy being defeated because he was literally too retarded to imagine a wormhole sucking zaraki into the sun, asspull arrow, Yhwach is capable of tanking a getsuga+gran rey cero, then dies to a normal getsuga, Ichigo only backup for the final battle is a fucking human being, not a captain tier shinigami, a high level sternritter, or vastolord holow, but a fucking human.

I'm pointing out that you are being a speed reader

>then got one-shotted by Yhwach
Only after he had his Bankai stolen

>then kubo just gave up
He literally broke a tendon trying to finish the manga.

Im not this user I though you were listing those things as criticisms

None of the Arrancars had good chemistry with each other to have the same dynamic as the Akatsuki. They were a legit military organization made up of hollows and arrancars united by their fear of Aizen, and hatred of Soul Reapers. Without Aizen, Hueco Mundo destabilizes and turns into a massive power struggle.

It got repetitive and a lot of the characters, powers, and plot felt like it came out of nowhere. I think people stopped caring about it because it didn't follow a logical progression.

It was mentioned three times. First when Uryuu's dad was seen dissecting the mom in the flashback. Second was when the arrow was given to Uryuu. Last was when Uryuu shot the arrow into Yhwach and we find out that it could somehow negate his powers to change the future

Still not sure why the Almighty couldn't have just let him foresee and select a future where Uryuu doesn't shoot the arrow though.

The REAL question though, is if Harribel is still stuck in the Quincy's sex dungeon.

Attached: Harribel.png (577x864, 326K)

>a lot of the characters, powers, and plot felt like it came out of nowhere
If you are a speedreader maybe

Yhwach is just Old Testament God. Having the Almighty doesn't make him omnipotent at all, he's still flawed and fallible. What part of this do brainlets not understand?

>Still not sure why the Almighty couldn't have just let him foresee and select a future where Uryuu doesn't shoot the arrow though.
Uryuu´s Antithesis counters the Almighty
>The REAL question though, is if Harribel is still stuck in the Quincy's sex dungeon.
Nel rescued her. Source: the novels

you got it backwrads, Ichigo didn't even do anything in the final arc

Naruto is getting shit talked by his own son and balding. Bleach ends with Ichigo happily married and fucking Orihime raw.

Is that the reason why the Arrancars spiked up the sales of the series big time to a point that it was selling 1 million copies per volume during the mid to late 20's?

It doesn't matter if the Akatsuki have "better chemistry" (which they don't really), the Akatsuki was stretched thin for 7 arc lines out of the 8 when they should have been dealt with in 4 arcs lines out of the 8.

And since Kishimoto had no interest in delving into the manga's world like the relationship of the Kages and their villages, the Tailed Beasts or even dive into the Hyuuga Clan, the series would have instead gone with Kazekage arc, Immortal arc, Uchiha arc and final arc if it was being written properly.

Kubo had other groups and problems he wanted to deal with post Aizen that were very well set up and written in the story

Are there any specifics on things they butted heads about? I hear he hated his editors, but does anyone know why this was?

>they show up in TYBW

Yeah, a clean-up novel to mop the things up that he should have dealt with in the actual manga.

>Hence why Nel and Grimmjow agreed to help Kisuke rescue her.

Yet we never hear a thing about why she was there in the first place. All set-up, no payoff.

>Shoehorning them into the battle segments of the manga would have been even worse. Not everyone needs a superpower to be part of the manga.

I agree with those specific statements, but there's lots of uncovered room. They would have made perfect sense to be part of the (on page) plot. Orihime's self esteem issues? Love troubles? Yeah, let's not get her friend involved who knew her from when she was little. What? You say it was because she didn't know about Shinigami and stuff? I wonder who had it in his power to write it differently.

Loyd wasn't even a part of Yhwach's personal guard. And no matter what the reason, a character that was hyped as one of the strongest for hundreds of chapters dying in a couple of pages counts as jobbing.

Attached: Yamato Rekted.png (577x786, 186K)

Naruto ended well, Bleach ended like a trashfire.

Why can't shounen maintain quality?

>Yeah, a clean-up novel
They showed up in the actual manga, headcanonfag

Not that guy, but using tactics instead of brute force on an opponent doesn't mean Yamamoto jobbed.

It shows that just because you have a BIG NUMBER doesn't mean shit if they can exploit weaknesses like senile attitude which was constantly reiterated for many chapters whenever he showed up.

The Arrancars spiked up sales because they had god tier fashion sense and great music.

>Naruto ended well

Calm your panties, I misread the acronym. Then it's just part of the "resolved half-assedly" section.

Meant to reply to .

>dying in a couple of pages
Yeah we should have gotten 6 chapters of Yamamoto slowing bleeding out on the ground

Nah, that was WAY before the anime adapted shit. Remember, the anime adaptation was always behind when it came to the manga. When Kubo was writing the Arrancars, the anime was on Soul Society and going into the Bount Filler arc

So that argument doesn't work

TYBW is Thousand Year Blood War, the last arc of the manga, not the novel. Nice try though.

>Yet we never hear a thing about why she was there in the first place
Yes we did, Yhwach conquered HM first so he could use the Arrancars as fodder.

>They would have made perfect sense to be part of the (on page) plot.
They were, just not in the way you wanted?

>it wasnt how I imagined it to be
You trully are the headcanonfag

Yamamoto's death served a purpose: the death of Soul Society and Gotei 13 as we know it. Without him, the bureaucrats can't bully the Soul Reapers into doing their bidding and forced to play by Kyoraku's rules.

Why do people think that Kubo wanted Bleach to be as popular as Naruto? The guy clashed with editorials and anime staff everytime they tried to force changes on his work.

See Weight of setup and resolution didn't correspond.

And yeah, not the way I wanted. You really want to argue that Kubo tied up all things well and managed the cast well? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Quit your paranoia, I don't even know who you're talking about.

There was no strategy involved at all. Yhwach have sealed it at anytime.

The only reason why he didn't was because Yhwach wanted to go and have a chat with Aizen while everybody else was distracted. That was why Yhwach ordered Royd not to fight Yamamoto; because Yhwach could kill Yamamoto even without the fight with Royd.

Attached: Stolen.png (475x704, 261K)

>Uryuu´s Antithesis counters the Almighty

Why do people keep saying this bullshit when Halswatch had no problem seeing Ishida future when he was using the Almighty?

Yamamoto lost because he used "muh Yamato Damashi" to win fights. The Japanese Soul Society got their shit pushed in by Western forces with better technology, tactics, and modern powers.

>You really want to argue that Kubo tied up all things well and managed the cast well?
What is Burden of Proof?

Nah, the strategy was

>Have Yamamoto fight Ryod Loyd
>have him use his Bankai and tire himself out
>Juha Bach sneaks down to Muken to try and convince Aizen to join them
>Yamamoto defeats bait and switch
>Juha Bach comes from behind and steals his Bankai after he's used up his energy to fight
>Yamamoto dies by Juha Bach's trickery rather than Juha Bach having a bigger number

Uryuu wasnt using the Antithesis agaisnts Haschwalth until it was too late. He was intentionally racking up damage to then switch it with him. After doing that Haschwalth said it was a good thing he got the Balance back because the Antithesis counters the Almighty

>Uryuu wasnt using the Antithesis agaisnts Haschwalth until it was too late. He was intentionally racking up damage to then switch it with him.
Yeah, so the Antithesis is a ability to switch damage back to the attacker, so far I see no mention anywhere in the manga that the antithesis can block precognition powers, the only one who was mentioned being able to do such a thing was Aizen, because of his bankai showing a false future, Antithesis has no such ability.

>After doing that Haschwalth said it was a good thing he got the Balance back because the Antithesis counters the Almighty
That would be true, if Yhwach could not literally bring himself from the dead, in a straight up fight between Ishida and Yhwach, Ishida might be able to surprise Yhwach once, then Yhwach comes back from the dead and takes Ishida head with a single swing of his sword, faster than he can activate Antithesis, if Yhwach and Ishida were to fight 1000 times, Yhwach would win 1000 times, Antithesis or not.
The only chance for Ishida to win is by using the asspull arrow, which is literally a plot device kubo made at the last second in order to write away a villain that was to strong for anyone to defeat, but then anyone could defeat Yhwach with the arrow, even Hanataro.

>so the Antithesis is a ability to switch damage back to the attacker
Not just damage, it reverses anything between 2 designated targets
>if Yhwach and Ishida were to fight 1000 times, Yhwach would win 1000 times, Antithesis or not
I swear I saw this argument before. Anyway, then it was a good thing the fight was a team effort instead of Uryuu having to fight Yhwach alone

Naruto is over. We Boruto now :^)

That's why when you write something always make sure you know how it will end. Oda did this, that's why no matter how clusterfuck his manga has become the finale won't change.

So you agree then that the Antithesis has no ability to block precognition? Which means Yhwach not seeing Ishida is another convenient plot hole that kubo used to dispatch a villain that was just too strong, honestly I'm not even surprised, this has already happened before, Aizen went full retard and never used his shikai on ichigo, despite the fact that doing so would allow him to instantly win.

But Yhwach ordered to stall Yamamoto you faggot, he even asks if he was tired from fighting his fake.

It's funny you say that yet leave how much of a coward Yhwach was to not fight Yama's bankai again after he massacrated him 1000 years ago.

Because the introductory arc was far better than anything else in the story

>So you agree then that (something that was never implied on my post)
Cope
>Aizen went full retard and never used his shikai on ichigo
Ichigo never saw KSs release. Cope harder

Yeah, now Kyoraku has no way to keep in check Mayuri and Zaraki. Based.

Its a war, you fight to win with the minimum amount of risk, only a retard would actually try to fight a fair fight, even ichigo tried killing Aizen with a surprise attack, it was war after all, not a duel for honor.

>implying Yamamoto kept them in check

Yhwach straight out says in the bottom right of that he ordered Royd to not do anything. It was Yamamoto himself that charged towards Royd and started the fight

If the commander has just sat still, then Yhwach would have came back after his chat with Aizen and still wiped the floor with Yamamoto. The user being tired was never required for stealing a Bankai. That's why all of the other quincies immediately stole the Bankai of the other captains instead of tiring them out first.

The actual plan was:
>Have Royd distract everybody while Yhwach went to see Aizen
>Yhwach comes back and then kills the Commander

was what happened in the manga after Yamamoto decided to charge out and fight Loyd.

Attached: C505.png (970x711, 432K)

That is literally a strategy

>weaken your foe
>Try to get the enemy of your enemy to join you
>take away his trump card when he doesn't realize it
>kill him without having to fight him one bit

It's a bait and switch tactic. Stop trying to pretend it wasn't strategy. You clearly don't know what strategy is or are you like Jiren who only thinks Brute Strength means the only thing in battle.

Kubo just needs to pair up with someone who can exclusively write the story while he does all of the art. That way he doesn't burn himself out trying to think of story ideas while he focuses on his true craft.

Bump

reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/aws63v/cant_fear_your_own_world_iii_pages_277303/

>reddit

Delete this faggot

Isn’t Gintama basically filler: the manga though?

Imagine a manga illustrated by Kubo and written by Togashi

The dream

You could say that about pretty much every comedic series

Once in hueco mundo the story failed to innovate. Kubo just kept doing what worked in the soul society arc.

>what is fullbring arc
>what is quincy arc

Yeah but at that point the excitement over Bleach was down and Kubo was giving into editor meddling. Like not actually killing off popular characters and not letting Ichigo start from scratch with his fullbring.

>not letting Ichigo start from scratch with his fullbring
What? How did Ichigo not "start from scratch"? He had to go through like 3 incomplete forms

Status quo to high captain level shinigami with hollow powers and getsuga tenshou, after starting to reclass and fight differently, maybe train in kido and flesh out his skills. Nope, just the same shit since the rukia rescue.

>Kubo just kept doing what worked in the soul society arc.
>he didn't do that in these arcs
>i-i-i-i-it doesn't count because (shit outside the actual manga)

>after starting to reclass and fight differently
How was his fullbring different?
>maybe train in kido
Kido is for faggots

Nah dude, Yama needed to be tired not for stealing the bankai, but to kill him. Yhwach literally send one of his strongest to weaken him. I think Reddit will be a better place for your fantheories.

I'm not saying he isn't allowed, but at least don't go around making up power levels.

His fullbring wasn't a sword, ranged, and its capacity for growth was huge. You don't do an interesting reset just to go back on it.

Kenpachi attacks Yamamoto
*Loses his blade and arm to heat*
Shieeeet

Bleach peaked earlier, blatantly recycled the same plot ad nauseum which made the creative rot more apparent and obnoxious, and Kubo made an enemy out of almost every editor and producer he ever worked with. Kishimoto and Naruto aged with grace in comparison.

>wasn't a sword
He sure used it as one
>ranged
So getsuga
>interesting reset
I sorry your therory was mistaken user

>implying kenpachi can't cut through the sun

>blatantly recycled the same plot ad nauseum
See >Kubo made an enemy out of almost every editor and producer he ever worked with
Source: my ass
>Kishimoto and Naruto aged with grace in comparison
Not with Boruto shitting on its legacy

It just got worse. Story got too convoluted, too many characters, nonsensical powerlevels.

Attached: 2ndPoll.jpg (2930x2100, 1.23M)

Why are you like this?

Cope

>it just got worse.

TYBW was the third best arc of the series

>story got convoluted
This isn't Kingdom Hearts buddy.

>Nonsensical power levels
Naruto would like to have a word with you.

Multiple reasons I think.

1) Even though Naruto turned to shit (especially during shitpuden), Kishimoto was able to create a very appealing concept of a ninja society with various characters with unique skills and backgrounds/clans. While Kishi was terrible at world building and character development, the world and characters were still appealing, that's why the series has a ton of fanfics relating to characters and clans.

2) Self-inserting ""underdog"" trope is appealing to most generic animetards, and Naruto does plenty of it.

3) Naruto had a clear goal that people wanted to see happen (despite the story being so shit). I don't remember what clear goal Ichigo had in life.

>Aizen didn't use his overpowered Shikai to overpower Ichigo.
>He instead turned into a butterfly then got killed by Ichigo
>Bleach never recovered

say all you want but anime and manga got axed because its ratings sucked

>use his overpowered shikai
Just looking away counters that shit

Please do not watch the Anime when it comes back this year

>manga got axed
>source: my ass

>then got killed by Ichigo
Speedreader

The anime got axed because of filler arcs. It's been well documented

The manga artist got very sick and had to have surgery on his left tendon. Meanwhile Shueshia was being obsessive over Naruto.

>Aizen didn't use his overpowered Shikai to overpower Ichigo.

Unohana literally told him about Aizen's shikai back in the end of Soul Society before Ichigo clashed with Aizen for the first time. All Ichigo has to do is look away since Aizen's kyoka Suigetsu only works if you secretly do it to someone.

>He instead turned into a butterfly then got killed by Ichigo
Aizen.... didn't die. he's in the final arc as a cameo character.

>Bleach never recovered
Is that why Bleach's final arc is 20 volumes long and the average sales of said manga volume per initial weekend was 450K to 500K?

Its the curse of Shounen Jump. All series in it, inevitably turn to shit as their popularity forces the continuation of a story that would otherwise end.

I'm still convinced that the only fucking reason the medallions work at all, is because Shinigami spend centuries channeling their power into an external medium, instead of forging the blade from their own soul (like Ichigo initially did after his blade broke against Zaraki the first time); which allows for the Quincy to sever the connection between Shinigami and medium and move it to the medium instead.

Because conceptually, otherwise, it makes literally no fucking sense that someone can steal your power from you because fuck you. This is FURTHER hinted at being the case by having the soul reapers take the hollow pill Kisuke made, hollowifying themselves to reforge the bond within themselves with their own power. In doing so, it poisons the connection to the medallion and viola; you now have your bankai back.

It's likely why Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu worked against Ywach before the Almighty awoke and even after the Almighty was active in full force. Because by using the Hogyouku, Aizen crossed over into the domain of the hollow and after his fight with Ichigo, fused with his own blade. Hence he was unconcerned throughout the entire fight with Ywach, even when Ywach tried to break Aizen's blade. He feigned surprise, but then quickly laughed in the face of a mad god anyway when he realized that his power had completely usurped The Almighty.

And noncanonically, its proven further by Kubo where he designed what Ichigo would look like for a mobile gacha game, had he completely mastered all his shinigami, hollow, and quincy powers simultaneously--a feat that would only be possible after the manga, as Ichigo didn't awaken his Quincy powers until the TYBW.

>retarded power levels
Wut? Are you talking about Bleach? Where?
>fights are basically 2 guys throwing nuclear bombs at each others
What are you even talking about?

>End of the Aizen arc was 1000% meant to be the ending.

This. Ichigo never gets his powers back and he never sees Rukia again. Then Ichigo and Rukia's children meet many years later. It's very bittersweet instead of WTF random.

No it wasn't. Kubo said himself that he had planned on the Quincy being antagonistic rivals of the Soul Reapers and created a backstory, conflict and motivation back in the Tales of the Shinigami arc.

Aizen's ending was looked at but Kubo considered it an incomplete storyline.

Why don't writers have a coherent plan before they begin writing? Same shit happens with/ tv/ shows, there is a premise and beyond maybe the first two episodes and a vague idea about how it should end it's all improvisation and doing shit on the spot. How can you expect to produce a decent meaningful story like this?

Also wasn't Death Note supposed to end with L's death? Not that the part after it was that bad, but it just feels meaningless to continue beyond the intended ending.

Plans have to evolve with the times though. You can't be married to your ideas.

Kubo had all the baseline things down and the conflicts and motivations, but he could never have predicted the Arrancar's popularity.

this

Attached: Heart.jpg (479x466, 4K)

Why do people focus on this page when there's at least 6 pages like this earlier on?

Shounen Jump often demands authors keep writing or Add in stuff randomly. Lots of author blurbs will talk about this. Kishimoto complained his author would make him cut arcs short to add in Sasuke, your right the Death Note Combo had planed to end it there but were told to keep it going.