>In 1989, Moore used Ozymandias to make fun of the trope "the villain has a point but let's make him do something terrible so people know he's evil" making him actually be right on everything he said, save the world, and winning. He wins so hard Rorschach practically commits suicide because his whole black and white morality got destroyed. Despite that, Moore leaves the reader to choose who was truly in the right, and makes it clear having Manhattan's last words in the comic be "Nothing ever ends" director to Adrian, who looks full of guilt of what he just did to New York and scared if it was worth it.
After watching The Batman, does anyone wish we got a story where the villain was actually right until the end or didn't go full schizo for once? And leaving the reader to think for themselves? I mean, they also ruined Adrian in the new HBO show, turning him into a full cartoonish sociopath instead of the complex villain/(hero?) he once was, so it's like writers are afraid of making stories that aren't that simplistic.
In 1989...
I thought the point was that his plan was stupid and would help keep world peace for a few months at most.
>says "Nothing ever ends"
>at the end of the comic
>his plan was stupid
considering in the comic russia and america were about to nuke each other, it wasn't THAT stupid of a plan.
This is the actual point even Alan Moore himself was too stupid to see. That's why the HBO Watchmen is vastly superior to the original. It actually understands real world reprocussions.
>has lubeman
I can see why you think its better than the original
Agreed. Lubeman is based.
>That's why the HBO Watchmen is vastly superior to the original.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
yup
> does anyone wish we got a story where the villain was actually right until the end or didn't go full schizo for once
That's what happens in Civil War. Zemo was right.
Rorshach goes to Heaven though. Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan and all of them go to Hell.
>This is the actual point even Alan Moore himself was too stupid to see.
Are you serious?
Moore literally has the closest thing to God tell Ozy that he hasn't ended anything
And the title of the book comes from "who watches the watchmen?", a quote condemning those who take law and power into their own hands without any oversight or consideration. To top it all off, Ozy is also the antagonist. It's very clear that Moore wrote the plan to be temporary peace at best
>Rorshach goes to Heaven though
was he even religious? all he does is kill people and hope other people suffer and die.
The Ozymandias name should be a clue in itself.
Probably not just a few months, but definitely not forever.
Manhattan basically sees through Ozy's short sighted view of humanity. Ozy's new utopia may be great and peaceful but it won't last. Yes the Ozy name is a big hint.
Yeah, can't believe I forgot that. It's the biggest indicator
>After watching The Batman,
Oh for fucks sakes, will you still niggers stop talking about that movie already? It was okay, it's not making 1 billion
>Ozy's new utopia may be great and peaceful but it won't last.
better than imminent nuclear war. peace never lasts and if manhattan actually gave a fuck about peace he would have just copied-pasted the sun and the earth a lightyear away along with all the russians
Why the hell did he kill rorschach then? That part was retarded.
No. I see this a lot. The idea it would immediately crumble.... Just no. You're missing the entire point of the Watchmen. It's a post WWII story. That WWII was the result of first world war. The cold war is a result of WWII. Humanity is cyclical. Ozymandias is even named after Ramessess II. While he was a pharoh with a long reign, he was not the last and what he accomplished was challenged after his death. Ramesses son had to fight warsm make alliances and 1000 years later Egypt fell to rome. There has never been peace on earth while humans reigned on it. There likely never will be. You can speculate months, that eliminates the generational nature of Watchmen.
>I thought the point was that his plan was stupid and would help keep world peace for a few months at most.
It is. If Alan Moore has one great point to make with Watchmen its that superheroes don't actually work in a real setting. Its why the tagline is "Who watches the Watchmen?"
I'm not arguing that it's bad or good. The fact it is debatably good makes Ozy such a great villain.
What happens after Watchmen?
Does Nixon become a dictator and takes over the US until his death?
I hate that WB made Snyder give the "It never ends" line to Laurie, because the movie needed more moments with female characters playing a role.
It was the same situation that existed in the real world during the cold war. Point of the story is that nuclear war is a problem you can't solve even with a godlike being like Dr Manhattan around and people like Ozymandias basically just delay it since the nukes still exist and will never be uninvented.
You're saying Moore makes a point of having Ozy be right, but leaves it up to the reader too??
>kills a bunch of city degenerates and blame it on aliens
Based?
Because a delay is still preferable to having the plan exposed and making the deaths of million be for nothing just so the heroes can be good about having done "the right thing"
t. suburbanite who thinks hes rural
Because Rorschach was gonna tell the truth to the world and Manhattan couldn’t let him do that so he killed him to preserve peace. It didn’t matter in the end because Rorschach already left his book detailing everything to the news. Based Rorschach technically wins.
Maybe the message is that he can't THINK of a way to convince everyone to step back, so something violent just be the answer. Sadly not unusual thinking from a leftist (along with the refusal to believe that mutually assured destruction is the ultimate deterrent).
But Dr Manhattan implies he knows this, so killing rorschach was useless but he did it anyway. It shouldn't have been dr manhattan killing rorschach, it should have been nite owl or something.
Someone with the momentary naivety to think that the plan might work if they just shut up and whats done is done.
What did Panther's dad do to deserve assassination?
It think its mostly to show Manhattan doesnt really give a shit about people anymore
Rorschach basically sacrifices himself to preserve the peace. Dude could have kept his mouth shut and gone home and told everyone. Or he's too stupid to not be such an objectivist he couldn't compromise for a moment to survive the events and tell the world. He's such an edglord faggot he has to tell them to kill him.
Either he died to go long with the plan of keeping the secret, or is an idiot and got himself killed. He most certainly does not win.
More like why the TITLE is Watchmen, rather than Minutemen.
He also leaves Earth and the events of the comic. If he never comes back he never knows what will happen since he can only see his own future.
They call me Dr Blackhattan
I mean, Rorschach's journal is sent to a crank radio station. There's a good chance it gets treated like Alex Jones does by most people.
Because Rorschach asked him very nicely
At this point, Rorschach's black and white world view has been completely and utterly broken by Ozy's plan. He can't handle the thought of doing something bad killing millions for something good to save BILLIONS because it goes against his simple mentality of good = good. He can't live with the fact that the biggest moment in his awful life will be a lie like that. So he basically commits suicide via Manhattan
Plus, Manhattan agrees with the plan at least in the short term. You've gotta remember that at the point Ozy does it, the two superpowers are a hair trigger away from sending the nukes flying. If Rorschach somehow managed to get the truth out right after the attack it would put the world straight back in jeopardy. Manhattan thinks/knows the plan isn't viable as a long-term solution of peace on Earth, but he sees it as the best short term course of action to prevent annihilation
I disagree. Ozymandias was a senile octagenarian in the tv series. It made sense that after a decade with literal swamp-slaves, hed go fucking crazy and "murder" them by the bushel.
Read a real story
>>In 1989, Moore used Ozymandias to make fun of the trope "the villain has a point but let's make him do something terrible so people know he's evil" making him actually be right on everything he said, save the world, and winning.
Thats not what Moore was doing with Ozy, who are you quoting?
wow, there it is. herstory
How the hell do you pull a translation out of that?
Moore gives the Comedian and Rorschach unrealistic amounts of moral clarity over the numbers of people that would die.
No one really understands the difference between 1 million/10 million/100 million/1 billion lives. Once you go past like a stadium size it's all the same. It's really difficult for any human to even fathom that scale.
>a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic
I get what you mean, but it makes more sense for Rorschach at least since he basically had a entire arc of rebuilding himself to some form of moral clarity compared to being some freaky batman murderhobo
>copy Atlas Shrugged
>don't add anything new to it or address the primary criticisms of objectivism
lmao Alan Moore is a dummy
Based HBO Watchmen knows Watchmen better than him.
The Comedian and Rorschach don't break down due to the statistics. I've already explained why Rorschach can't handle it
With the Comedian, it's because his whole shtick and life revolves around taking everything serious about life and treating it as a joke. That's how he copes with the world and finds his place. But Ozy does the opposite, taking something silly (a massive tentacled comic book alien monster) and treating it seriously (killing millions), by aiming to end war, which is the only thing the Comedian ever found his place in. Those two things are what breaks him: the knowledge that he'll be obsolete, and that someone's better at jokes than him
>How the hell do you pull a translation out of that?
IIRC some old king's tomb had a line of text written in several different languages and one of them was that language on the tablet so they could figure out what a lot of letters meant, but yes it was understandably insanely hard to translate.
His plan sucked. The only competent part was his manipulation of Dr Manhattan, who isn't actually that intelligent or energetic in practice. Manhattan is the interesting one -- suppose the universe started off as a guided project, and somewhere along the line God just lost interest and left? He doesn't feel the same emotions we do, after all.
What a brainlet take.
It's an obvious jab at utilitarianism, with Manhattan's point being that time and the universe ultimately doesn't conform to any human ideology, no matter how good/horrific the intentions are. And with that, Rorschach's sacrifice/assisted suicide is also in vain, because the cosmos doesn't care.
It's a "fuck you American and your briandead and inhumane values" type of thing, with a dash of "go read some Nietzsche instead of Ayn Rand for a change, especially you Steve Ditko you mad, sad genius of a man, I'm a fanboy who's worried about you".
I really wish we'd gotten Ditko's full thoughts on Watchmen and Rorschach, if he ever read it
Hell, I wish we'd gotten his thoughts on anything. It's a shame we'll never know how such a creative guy worked
Dr Manhattan reminds me of star trek (mostly tng) and the Prime Directive.
They are basically gods to any developing civilisation, they could come in and show them how to catch up to the federation technologically and save the civilisation from hundreds of years of famines, wars, genocide, medical deaths etc but they choose to ignore them until they naturally develop.
It was written in three languages two of which were known while egyptian hieroglyphs weren't. Meanwhile hieroglyphs were largely phonetic like our alphabet
Comedian lived his life believing humanity will destroy itself and then he faces something that will plausibly end the nuclear war and unite the world in peace.
The thoughts we did get from him are outsider art in their own right.
I live in a city
Dude kills himself more or less because his every moral fiber is built upon choices like not hiding the truth, even for a second.
He clearly states that this is something he cannot, and will not compromise on, lest he suffer a guilty mind forever afterwards.
Just think about the things you wouldn't do irl because living with the guilt is a horrible enough thought on it's own.
Except Alan Moore could only still emulate Ayn Rand even if he tries to create a shallow criticism. How very Nietzchiean of Moore to try to criticize and yet say nothing at all...
The most amazing thing about Watchmen is how such a humongous faggot like Moore could write such a fantastic comic and story.