Determinism and fatalism are the silliest philosophies I've encountered...

I keep asking but you just re-state your own point that the thinking is an after effect, so I ask again, why engage in the thinking if it changes nothing? I'm sorry for harping on this point but it's important

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I'm asking a single question that you all avoid and give non-answers like:
>Because we don't control our actions (Which doesn't explain why we think about our actions beforehand.)
>It doesn't make decisions on it's own, (again, doesn't answer the question)
>It's an after effect (Re-stating the same point.)

>Argues in circles
>Tells OP to stop arguing in circles
Is Determinism part of a CIA Psy-op? They always claim you're doing what they're actually doing.

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>why engage in the thinking if it changes nothing
Because you are processing information REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE how hard is that to understand? Your consciousness does not exist to take decisions, it processes certain informations that are then used by your body to take decisions. How hard is that to understand? By thinking about actions beforehand, you are providing your body with different/more refined choices, so that it can then make decisions in novel situations.

>By thinking about actions beforehand, you are providing your body with different/more refined choices, so that it can then make decisions in novel situations.
So, there is free will then?

Any reasonable person would doubt the existence of free will if he understood the arguments against it. But never mind that. If you really believe in free will, then demonstrate it with your actions. If you truly have free will, then you should have no problem with avoiding procrastination or addiction or any conscious shortcomings. You should always be able to execute your rational desires, being in complete control over your sensual nature. But even if you were able to be perfect like this, you’re ultimately following the desire to improve your experience of life, which you had no control over. So in the end, you’ll always be acting due to causes beyond yourself. To have a will means that you are not free. It’s best to simply conceive of freedom as that which tends to personal benefit. The disciplined man is freer than the one who is slave to his animalistic desires.

I think you're wrong in stating Free Will doesn't exist, and the arguments I've seen make as much sense as a four sided triangle. I can do this, or that, or think such and such, or think something else. I know I'm free, and I'd think you could all be free too, but you choose to disbelieve in your freedom for some reason.

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>I think you're wrong in stating Free Will doesn't exist
I never said that. Causality alone makes me hesitant to believe in it. I don’t know if it exists or not. Decision-making isn’t the same as making a free choice

>Decision-making isn’t the same as making a free choice
I see. That appears to be the crux of the disagreement with me and Determinists. I say any choice implies free will, while they say it must be more free to be considered free will.

No. You don't choose how you think. You've already thought before you thought to think.

Maybe NPCS don't but I do. How do I know? I'm doing it right now. You can change how you think art the drop of a hat. Nothing is there to stop you.

>You can change how you think art the drop of a hat
But if we were to look at the electric signals in your brain, you'd find out that these "changes" are happening before you consciously think of them.

If that it AT ALL true, then I ask you again the very first question, why do we think beforehand? You claim it's because we're not decision makers but rather just receptors, but that doesn't answer, why should we think and not just act? If our actions are pre-determined, why think of them before acting? Our brain already knows what to do, right? So why think beforehand?

When you are aware of the change it has already occured. The thought emerges and then it feels part of you. You don't decide it, because that would mean thinking how to think, and one cannot think the thought before one thinks the thought.

Please see the same exact point I've been making this whole thread here

Irrelevant why; how determines it. Nature cares not a wit for your need for clarification. It is a blind physical force.

>Uh, I'm right, you're wrong, sorry bud
Woah, great argument. Really showed me the way.

So you mean to say that if a person just doesn't think their life would be the exact same if they were too?

>It's not brain chemicals, it's not God, it's you
What is “you” in this sentence?

If you're an NPC, you wouldn't understand. It's the entity refereed to as Cognition, Awareness, and sometimes Soul. The scientists claim these are brain chemicals, but does not explain the inherent infinite imaginative and decision making abilities of this entity, which I think influences the brain chems, not the other way around.

Fuck youre a dense retard. If you have free will then use it to fucking understand that your thought and actions come from a place outside of "your" control. Like your heart beating, your dick getting hard and your mind wandering into different directions and thoughts. Think of cravings as an example. Without warning or even intent you feel a desire to eat something specific. This could be caused by a commercial, a happy memory or your mind just randomly shooting this thought into your head. Its the same with everything else that you do, every thought you think pops up from some where beyond our consciousness, and any decisions we make are rigged by forces unknown to ourselves.
This doesnt mean life is shit, but you can now have greater compassion for others and understand why people do bad things. They get bad thoughts and dont have the mental breaks to stop acting out crazy shit like the rest of us.
There is a lot of writing on This, I suggest you read some instead of restating your opinion like its a truth.

>Fuck youre a dense retard
Wah, wah, w-ah- a bloo hoo, why don't Opie just listen to me and not have any stake in life, a wah, wah.
>Like your heart beating, your dick getting hard and your mind wandering into different directions and thoughts
You can control all of those things with practice.
>Think of cravings as an example. Without warning or even intent you feel a desire to eat something specific.
Also controllable
>Every thought you think pops up from some where beyond our consciousness, and any decisions we make are rigged by forces unknown to ourselves.
Unknown forces huh? Very scientific and realistic. Sounds real legit, user.

Nice bait

It wasn't bait, but a refutation of your silly ideology. But I guess you were fated to be silly, huh?

>it’s magic and you’re stupid if you disagree
that’s about what I expected but thanks anyway

Well if you don't see the fact it's something very special and important, and able to change it's own situation, I can't help you. But do know it can change it's situation.

Thoughts are created outside your consciousness, but experienced in consciousness. When you think of something, your subconscious has already processed This, you're merely experiencing it.
I said forces unknown to ourselves, as in we can not understand why we get all the thoughts that we get, or why we do the things that we do. Like I am arguing with a fucking retard on this god forsaken website right now, instead of folding laundry and going to bed, even though I know its a waste of time.

>Y-your a retard!
>N-no your dumb!
>We CAN'T control our situation!
>We are slaves!
If that helps you sleep at night. But I don't blame you, because you were fated to do so. Anything I do though, blame me, because I'm the one that did it.

Ladies and gentlemen, you've all just been witness to the Determinist at their finest. They get asked simple questions, dodge them with half-answers and then resort to insults. But don't blame them, for they control not what they do. According to themselves, at least.

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>cant handle the reality of not being a special conscious epic thinking and decision making hero
>posts cringe on anime forums about how all The NPC'S cant handle his epic thinking and self control
It seems this NPC is doing its job

You don't know dick about reality you bugman. You just don't like the idea of having options because you get scared when you realize you're not bound by anything to do anything, and can do whatever.

You don't have a choice in the matter. You are conscious awareness, not your sensations, one of which is the sensation of choosing.

You can sense whatever you choose in imagination. You don't HAVE to tune in to the real world. Seriously, try it at home, kids. You can imagine anything, really.

>my opinion are me, not thoughts formed from my collective memories and experiences
>I want credit for having a functioning brain, its all me Guys, im thinking so hard right now!!!

> rational desires
Oxymoron. All desires are emotions, and therefore irrational.

Also, you DO have a choice in matter, and can What, you can't shut yourself off?

You do in fact control your opinions. It may take time in some cases but you can. I've experimented with self inflicted pain and learned to like it in like five minutes. I've changed my opinions intentionally many times.

Brainlet OP.

Brainlet You, more like it. Widdle baybee doesn't even know he can control his body and brain yet. You'll learn, eventually.

Example: I want to have a well-paying job in the future. I know that this will allow to buy my necessities that keep me comfortable and happy. I call this a “rational desire” since we’ve rationalized the desire. Though I don’t actually feel any desire, I can rationalize a good decision that will benefit me in the future.

Awareness encompasses more than the sense world, the inner world of cognition is also part of it. But I'm not sure about my opinion on free will. Once one regards all sensations as illusory, one does feel completely free (though that's also yet another sensation). But I don't know about determinism, reality is so inscrutable at root. There's even physicists saying reality is completely mental, not material.

this destroys non determinists:

If time was rewound 5 minutes would everyone make the same exact decisions? if so, then determinism.

Well, what if time was rewound 5 minutes, and then none of the same decisions were made? Seems just as likely.

> benefit me in the future
Reduced, that just means 'I imagine in the future this action will give me bodily sensations which I label as pleasant'. This labeling is not rational: it is just a sensation, you can take it any which way. But this typically is not a problem, as long as you never take any of your bodily sensations very seriously.

why would there be a difference?

Because a persons Self, or their awareness, is an entity with infinite variables and can change to whatever they wish at any time and is not bound or limited.
Another thing, your argument basically says
>Well, if thing that couldn't happen were to happen, and in this exact way, it means we are right.

The fact that time can't be rewound, or controlled in any way at all really, is already the proof that determinism is real

I don't see how. That's complete phoney bologna. You people are silly. You guys REALLY just don't realize that you're free to choose which direction you go. We're all completely free, why do you shy from this?

Your thought process? You did not choose it.
Everything is part of the absolute chain of cause and effect. Even your private thoughts are determined by past events.

You think you chose what to eat for breakfast ? That was partly chosen by habit, by childhood memories, by the room temperature, by the marketing advs you saw months ago on TV, by your genetics, your learned tastes, conditioned reactions to simultaneous stimuli, and by so many other factors.
Your democratic vote? Your answers in that test? Even the feelings you got when watching that great movie? All of that has been influenced by external stimuli, you did not create it from nothingness. Your mind does not create daily reality, daily new genesis, ex nihilo. You are not a God capable of breaking the chain of cause and effect to insert your will in the middle as you please. Your mind, the name given to the actions of your brain, is a part of the chains of cause and effect as much as the rest of your body and everything else.

Neurons are triggered by sensory reactions (and something fire up randomly when there is accumulated electricity but get silenced easily), and are connected in evolutionarily selected neural pathways that generate thought process by connecting patterns and cycles of informatiom at higher and lower levels. Genetics decides a good part of your thought process. Memories store information from experience, and emotions play the major role in that, for you remember what was more emotionally sognificant, as the amygdala becomes more inflamated. The "logical" part of your mind, located mostly in the Pre Frontal Cortex, is directly dependent of limbic structures. You emotionally decide how you feel about something BEFORE putting it into words and using "logic" to make up justifications of how you felt. You do all of that every time you take decissions or form an opinion. Your "free will" is just post-hoc rationalizations of your evolved innate intuitions, with varying degrees of complexity depending on memory storage and simultaneous external stimuli. These innate intuitions have been selected by evolution too, being reactions like disgust, fear of pain, care for children, etc (read Haidt). And your naive belief that free will is real also emerges from an emotion, a fear of losing control of yourself that is implied in accepting that you are not really in charge. Accepting that would mean you are less powerful than you believe, it's chaotic for.you and lowers your serotonin levels, which are fired depending on perception of hierarchical status and confidence. At first it seems evident to you that you have free will, because believing that intuition is one of the roles of the unfree mind: to stimulate a sense of security in order to maintain the parasympathetic system stable and not enter in despair. But it's false. Your mind is a mix of electric and chemical reactions. A really impressive mix with around 100 billion neurons average for humans, but still no more than that.

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I know which one you're referring to but the ones who did it themselves said it didn't disprove free will.

Then why can I decide to go left or right? You claim it's already chosen, but yet if I do not think of it beforehand, the outcome is different.
You're going to be viewed in a hundred years as silly as an alchemist, who got it half-right but not right enough. The evidence for my view doesn't need anything other then to view your situation unbiased. The choice is, and always will be, yours. You may be inclined towards one or the other, but you are still in charge of the direction. You may be genetically disposed towards this or that but it matters not, you still decide what to do. How do I know? Because I AM that which decides. I AM that entity. My proof is in front of everybody all the time. The fact that no matter their past, no matter what they're inclined to do, THEY still decide what to do.

Anyone who honestly thinks
>We're just brain chemicals, we can't influence reality
Should go back to le ddit. It is quintessential normie NPC thinking.

Ah, it's okay kid, maybe one day you will figure it out. Ps the doer is unreal, there is no free will whatsoever

computers and animals also make decisions. Since you don’t understand all the variables, you have the illusion of choosing freely. You think that you chose what to eat today when the decision was predetermined the whole time.

It disproves the idea that you can consciously make choices.

>You claim it's already chosen, but yet if I do not think of it beforehand, the outcome is different.
Whether you will think or not think about it beforehand is chosen already

I already know free will exists, you're actually the wrong one. The fact you people can't see it just another reminder that humanity is still an infantile species as a whole. YOU will figure it out one day, that determinism is a myth. A spook. An attempt to make people think they have no influence or can change their life, their thoughts, themselves. For now, your punishment is self inflicted tossing about by the waves of life, never to walk the way you wish. Anyone who believes in determinism is an NPC. I am convinced of that.

Alright I'm done for now. See you guys later.

Ad Hominem does not eliminate validity of the claim

Here's one. OPWhen you drop something your body instinctively tries to amend the issue, when you are driving your car close to crashing your body takes over, where were "you"? When you are about to get hit by something you body dodges automatically where were "you"? The illusion of a doer, self, entity is the problem we are stuck with me. No free will, and absolutely no freedom of action

It doesn’t (assuming you are thinking of the circling dot and reaction experiment) since, as the researchers themselves acknowledged, there are potentially other mechanisms to explain the delay in reaction time which haven’t been ruled out

Cope retard cope. Grow up

That's fucking retarded.
>Oh, when we die or are in shock it's like we perceive reality differently, guess there's no free will!
You're in control of everything you do.
Own up to it.

You have no thoughts of your own, no desires of own, no experiences unique, what you call "you" is completely passed down to you. There is no "you".

>Cope
Go back to fucking 9 gag you under-age smoothbrain. Keep thinking you can't control your actions or thoughts, see where it gets you. To a fucking gutter in an alley most likely, you fucking fool.

Cope.

Who is this "you"? Who am "I"? Ask yourself that

>circling dot and reaction experiment
There are numerous experiments done, including ones with actual mapping of brain activity showing patterns happening up to several seconds before any conscious choices.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18408715
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021612
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3625266/

You're not gonna change yourself ever, because of your pure idocy. You may as well have hit yourself in the head to cause retardation, with your deterministic thinking. Believe what you wish, because it IS your choice.

What will get you in a gutter if the delusion that there is some separate entity guiding the actions of your body. Enjoy the illusion I plan on getting out of the cave eventually

Seething.

I AM THE ENTITY. It;s not separate from me. You're the one in their own illusion.YOU are your own warden.
>inb4 another le ebic one word response like Cuh-winge! Or Cope! or Hab sex incel!
I am arguing with a fucking starfish level intellect.

Le funne one word responses. Put me in da screencap!
God this thread sucks.

You know it really doesn't matter if free will exists or not because humans are so limited
We can't even perceive time as it actually is there's no sense in having these grand delusions of control when we're so far encapsulated into these systems that we can't even perceive properly

The sensation of free will is terrifying though. You could just randomly throw yourself off a bridge and it will be as nothing ever happened. And although mind correlates with neural states, it does not reduce to them, unlike everything else in nature which does reduce to atoms, though these atoms seem to be made of nothing at all.

>I AM THE ENTITY.

Said the entity. The question you should ask is what is this "I"?

I think that the clear winner of the debate is:
Drum-roll please....
Nobody because both sides got mad and upset so therefore neither side learned anything at all.
Thank's for coming to the Yea Forums debate hall everyone.

The I or Self is a changeable aspect of the will which represents it's internal personality. I should clarify, I meant the pure awareness or will.

This. We got to all learn to get along. Who knows if free will exists? Even if it doesn't, we should still try our best to lead the best lives we can! Come on guys, group hug, Bring it in now.

Exactly. Reality as we know it as an illusion. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. It's amazing how much wisdom is contained in the banal "don't worry, be happy".

BOTH SIDES WIN, THEY REALIZE FRIENDSHIPS MORE IMPORTANT. COULDN'T HAVE ASKED FOR A BETTER OUTCOME!

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In the end, the true free will was the freidns we made along the way.

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The real free will were the friends we made along the way

Watch

youtu.be/Zs4C91-_eqQ

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Cringe.

Isn't there an inherent error in extrapolating from these experiments due to the fact that the subjects are told they will be performing an action -- thus already priming their brains for an action/inaction.

There's also another potential error in the experiment: they describe a pattern firing, but what the hell started the sequence? Was there anyone who just never took the action, and if there was, was the pattern also observed?

Worst thread I've read in a while, great job OP.