Tell me, is the pic related necessarily true? Can there be a job that pairs with writing or any other artistic pursuit?

>Wage slavery is true.
>Worker should earn his keep and worker should receive an appropriate salary is also true.
It is indeed true. How do you quantity an appropriate salary tho? And by what means you ensure that everyone gets it?
Furthermore should all jobs give a living wage? Some jobs serve an usefull purpouse as first work experience for 16-18 year old kids, others are partially detached from normal economic standards (If I'm a young inexperienced painter it serves a purpouse to me to paint panoramas and portaits of conceited mormora for little actual gain: If they like my work they'll ask for more and tell their friends and the value of my art is litteraly 100% dependant on how much people want my work).

Is that you Kropotkin? Please come back, we need you

No. Your salary is compensation for doing a job society has at least a modicum of demand for. Jobs are generally considered superior to everybody hunting and foraging for themselves for multiple reasons, such as allowing an individual to spend more time on his job's set of tasks, which in turn leads to higher all-around skills. It is also, for many, a hell of a lot easier to type up datasheets or whatever than to grow and hunt (and preserve) their own food.

Anyone can quit their job and move into the wilderness whenever they want. One may note that almost nobody does because IT'S FUCKING HARD and generally leaves LESS time to fuck around.

>society has at least a modicum of demand for
Wrong. About a third of all jobs needn't exist, and that's a conservative estimate.

your dreams of being a writer is the bribe you give yourself to forget how meaningless your life really is

I feel this way about girls. They give you everything, their body and attention, but just so that you don’t go and find someone you can really commit to. They have you working for them, and they pay with sex, whereas all I ever wanted was to love someone and grow old with them

It applies. They don’t pay you what you’re worth to them. They’d lose money that way.
Fuck, man.

for permanent staff, your cost to the company is approximately twice your salary

It's still obviously worth it to them or they'd fire your hypotetical bass.
How do you quantify the "True" value of your work while detaching it from how much your boss will pay for it?

>They don’t pay you what you’re worth to them. They’d lose money that way.
I'm a researcher so "they" are losing money no matter what they pay me and my worth is in my ability to squeeze money out of the people who allot grants.

What a load of shit.
There's always a way to pursue your "dreams" successfully.

A job can fill the need of "being a job that technically exists." The demand may not be with society as a whole, yes, but companies wanting to keep up hiring appearances will gladly pay for a warm body to sit around and make them look better.

I'm also impressed that THIS is what you have an issue with.

What do if I want to be the next Irwin Finkel?

I’m for abolishing money to find wealth where it truly is.

So not a producer of any value to society. They decide to spend on someone like you in hopes of making more later of course. They don’t send you any residuals when they do.

A noble sentiment as long as you don't end up murdering 100 milions people to realize it like last time.

Some people don’t have dreams, they just sorta leech off the high energy radiating from stars, trying to soak up their energy and mimic their behavior. They need to find work elsewhere to support this “existence”

The libertarian-socialists need to outnumber the authoritarians (socialists and fascists) in order to obtain a true social revolution.

I didn’t mean to sound so mean above.

Your job is just your job, it enables you to do the things that are important to you. You got 8 hours of work, 8 hours to apply yourself to the higher calling and 8 hours to sleep, then you get the weekend to play and do your weekly errands. Plenty of time to get good and make an impact on the world, just need to apply yourself and accept that until you get good, you will work your ass off.

quit complaining.

It's also wrong because in many parts of the world, the 'wilderness' is government owned and it's illegal to squat there. Sure you might get away with it for a while, but eventually....
...and even people who supposedly OWN the land they live on are persecuted for attempting to live off the grid, you're always hearing stories in the news about people getting citations or in legal trouble for having certain structures on their property because of 'zoning laws', even if their land is in the middle of nowhere. This ain't the 1800s anymore, you can't just go out and pull a Walden whenever you want nowadays.

>How do you quantity an appropriate salary tho?
Easy.
A man with a full-time job in manufacturing/construction/anything useful to society at large should be able to support himself, his wife and his children and should be able to afford a home.
You tell me what that is in today's shekels, son.

>It's another I want to be a writer post
Holy shit how many times do I have to remind you old man. poets.org/poem/so-you-want-be-writer

It applies if you are satisfied with it.

being a full time writter/artist forces you to do it on a regular basis, and therefore you loose the artistic value of your work
that's not a dream, that's a goal that was created by the bourgeoisie to distract you from the real life goals
a full time job is too exhausting and takes too much time to actually leave you with a full potential artistic capacity

"Go" or "lead to"? I am confused.

>a full time job is too exhausting and takes too much time to actually leave you with a full potential artistic capacity
bullcrap, there's a wealth of examples of the contrary. Lots of people who work full time, go to the gym, write AND find time for their other interests. As long as you're not shackled in a relationship with a woman that believes she deserves 100% of your time and commitment but won't even fucking cook or agree to be your keyholder or whatever your fetish is.

>all I ever wanted
There is no downtime. You must manage them constantly until you die. There is no easy road.

R/Dramakin OUT

I just want to be a writer bros, but this shitty job and school won't let me even read as much as I would like to.

But what comes after wealth?

>never had any dreams to forget
feels pretty comfy tbphwy

a fair rebuttal

Never had any dreams in the first place.

i agree, but lets be real - we all have to deal with maintenance (eating, bathing, etc) and a good amount of bullshit in our free time.

>poets.org/poem/so-you-want-be-writer
bukowski is literally rupi kapur for men.

Ask Faulkner.

>You must manage them constantly until you die
Oh I’m gonna manage it ;)

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problem is that it's becoming increasingly more difficult to reach that 8-8-8 setup 5 days a week and have 2 days off and still pay your bills and do the things you want.

it's like my current job, I used to work a pretty straight-forward 9-5 hours but then the summer ended and the GM wanted to start cutting hours and shit. so for the last month i've been getting drug around, not even getting 80 hours for the pay period, working ridiculous hours like 8:30am to 12am on a saturday then 11:30am-9pm the next day. and this is for fucking poverty wages.

buy chainlink

My job is pretty great though. The actual work is anyway. Some of the people are horrible

following your "dreams" is the biggest meme ever.

>Can there be a job that pairs with writing or any other artistic pursuit?
Yeah. Writer, editor, publisher, illustrator, graphic designer, 3D artist, musician, etc.

>being a full time writter/artist forces you to do it on a regular basis, and therefore you loose the artistic value of your work
lol, wat?

Is that something Kropotkin would say? I'm that poster but I've never read Kropo at all. Should I start with The Conquest of Bread?

The value of a good or service is whatever you can sell it for, so... By definition they ARE paying what he's worth.

The real irony of Left-Libertarianism is that if the Fascists and the Socialists all died, you'd be fucked because you're a bunch of lazy retards.
The inverse is not true. Fascists don't need you, but you definitely need them. They aren't just going to stop existing because some patchouli-oiled faggots tell them to.

>should
Well that's a bit of a problem, because cost of living varies depending on region. The Market usually sorts this out by itself, since if they can't find someone to do the job for X because it isn't enough, they'll try X+1, then X+2, then X+3, and so on until someone bites.

This is why globalized economy is so important to the current system. You can hire a Chinese person to do labor for a lot cheaper than someone in the developed world because their cost of living is dramatically lower.

When you set a minimum wage, what you're really doing is making any work below that number illegal, even if it were survivable. The result of this is always capital flight.

the first and last woman economist

It’s not your job that’s keeping you from accomplishing your dreams. It’s your mediocrity.

the world don't run on dreams, snowflake.

based

WRONG
a job is a task you do for money. Nobody is "bribing you" and they don't give a fuck about your dreams, there are tons of people who can easily replace you at your job. Stop bitching and you'll be in the same place in 10 years. Wtf is stopping you from following your "dreams"? It's cowardice and mediocrity disguised as oppression. I moved across the country to live in a cheap area so I can save a large portion of my income. I did this for a few years living like a monk and then had enough money to jumpstart my "dream"

>The value of a good or service is whatever you can sell it for, so...
The "value" of any good or service is different in a Capitalist paradigm versus a Free-Market or Socialist paradigm. She's only 98% retarded.

where the hell did you move that was cheap but actually had a decent paying job?

>some kids are born with enough money to never work a day in their lives, their money makes more money for them
>not you though
>you need to waste 2/3+ of your productive waking hours on wageslavery

you are born into slavery. the caste system never died, it merely changed names. also:
>not having a job where you get paid to read
shiggy.

>Necessarily
Is any emotional state a necessary result of external stimuli? Jobs don't care about your soul. That doesn't mean they work against it, it means they are indifferent to your personal life. Get some skills. Help some people in a real and sustainable way. You'll be fine

I moved to Texas, compared to the west coast it's cheap af. The pay is obviously less but just the rental prices makes up for it. Saving still required work, I basically sacrificed my social life and any basic luxuries for 4 years in order to save enough money. I cancelled my internet for one year and I would download everything I needed using public WiFi, also helped me from wasting time on sites like this. Are there systemic problems that makes such difficulties a necessity in order to follow your "dreams"? Of course, but I wasn't going to change it, and sitting around complaining wouldn't do anything. The only thing I cared about was getting it done, and the fire inside me made it so.
Let's say through your own work you made a lot money and then had children, would you not keep them from wasting their life wageslaving? It sounds like the only people you should be blaming are your parents for having you knowing you'll have to slave away for the rest of your life to survive

nigger. saying "wouldn't you want to be part of the slave-owning class instead of the slave class, too?" does not refute that we have a modern slavery system

maybe with all that money you could buy a fucking book to read and stop being retarded

Are you even thinking about it or are you just transcribing off of an econ book?
They pay you BELOW what you make for them. This is how they get paid, how they buy more materials, pay people to watch you, bribe government officials, etc. they don’t pay the worker what he’s worth. If they did, they’d go penniless

You're such a fucking stupid dumb ass.

>nigger. saying "wouldn't you want to be part of the slave-owning class instead of the slave class, too?"
The "slave owning class" got there by their own merit and intelligence and passed down the spoils to their descendents. Your position concludes their place on the hierarchy is inherently immoral or unjustified as if their places were randomly chosen by an outside actor with no attachments and is not the result of Independent efforts. Your parents are only a continuation of unintelligent humans continuing to reproduce with no regards to the life outcome of their offspring. If you yourself do not believe you can escape the position you're in than refrain from pumping out another baby if you find that position to be undesirable and you cannot fathom your children continuing down the same path. Also it isn't "slavery" you are working for your own survival. Stop working tommorow and nobody will care or force you to continue, however the consequences are yours to take. Anything short of being given everything a contemporary prole demands as basics of living by doing absolutely nothing in return is slavery to you.

>does not refute that we have a modern slavery system
It does by displaying the human behaviors at the source of this is not distinguishable by different classes and is a default state of man when given that position. Being angry at humans preferring their own family tribe is like being angry so much space in wasted homes for bathrooms because humans have to shit
>maybe with all that money you could buy a fucking book to read and stop being retarded
Irony
Amazing rebuttal

>their own merit and intelligence
that's a damn tasty boot *schlop schlop schlop*
yes massuh you're sure better than me *schlop schlop schlop*

i didn't read the rest. eat a dick and shoot yourself.

There are jobs that don't require you to slave away 8 hours ever day, you know.
I work as a sysadmin and spend half a day or more reading and browsing here

> every transaction is zero sum

gee it's almost as if you are more valuable in a company. I have been a freelancer and it has its benefits but I also appreciate being in a functioning group.

but youre literally a social anxiety neets dream, no one wants to talk to you and everyone ignores you when theres a security issue that costs company money to fix until something terrible happens

The majority people don't even have dreams. People are absolutely fine being a slave because they don't have to think. Thinking is tiring, and they would rather have someone else lead them. Shit, the amount of people in college who talk about their dream say the reason why they have that dream is because someone, usually a family member or someone with authority in the internet or someone that has influence, said so. If you have to go to college for a dream, it's not a dream because everything in college is the same. What I mean is that what you learn in college is the precise knowledge to replace the previous generation. That's no dream, it's just cycle. Soon, you will be replace by another victim of the college scheme.

As for people who work, it's the same. College is just the tutorial.

If you have to go to college and go to work, you had no dream in the first place. You're perfectly fine on being a mindless, forgettable, replaceable entity. You let others think for you, and as such, you lose.

And there are those who are self-aware drones. They know that salaries and wages control their lives. They know how unfortunate it is to bend under someones command, and do things they don't want to do. The sad thing is that although they know how shit their situation is, they do nothing about it. Instead of trying to change their environment, instead of using salaries and wages as a means to forget about dreams, they use vices to forget their dreams. They use video games, porn, news, books, cigarettes, writing, or whatever the industry standard is currently shitting out. These guys may be rich thanks to their salary or even their company, but still, they succumb to their vices, vices that were made by other people who have dreams.

To those who have dreams, they accomplish it. They are the ones who realize how shit the world is, and is actively trying to dominate it. They are trying to break what is normal, and lead, and dominate those around them. In fact, there's only one true dream: absolute freedom. They don't have to worry about anything. They do as they please.

So yeah, thanks for coming to my drunken ted talk.

>And, as a side note, what is it about putting things into categories that I find satisfying? Why are lists and categories so attractive? Is it because it's simple and that I don't have to do much thinking?

>you are more valuable in a company.
Not if there’s an “owner” who leeches the profits
WSDEs are better
filmsforaction.org/watch/democracy-at-work/

Absolutely pathetic, of course you didn't read the rest

read marx you braincels. nothing has changed since 1867.

How do you think an aristocracy is formed retard? Picked names out of a hat? Whether or not their descendants "deserves" the same status is not the question, the founders of these family lines gained their position through independent action. The landowners of the UK being Norman descendants exists because the Normans got on a boat, conquered the island, and managed to defend that position from other would-be conquerors until the present day. Try to outlaw inheritance if makes you that butthurt, but even then you and your children will still be poorfags because you are the result of retarded cowardly genetics that cannot grasp anything on its own

You overcomplicate "dreams", the vast majority of them consists of pursuing your interests without having to worry about money. It has nothing to do with domination, the Napoleon type figure doesn't exist today and won't ever until the next cycle. My dream is to read history books and draw animation without having to work 8 hours a day in order to pay my rent. I don't give a fuck about anyone else or trying to "lead" them. Your post is just one big projection, and your ambitions is the result of never being loved

I use my salary to pursue my dreams. baka

All go there. Some lead there too.

And if they went penniless I wouldn't have anyone to pay me for my service.

Where do you live?

nice ad Hominem

>im 2dum to work by mself
See

I always dreamed of being on trains and flying planes. Now I work for the railroad and can afford to get my pilot's license. Joke's on you, loser.

I'm way more efficient and less miserable as a working bee.
Assuming that everyone is equally capable in all aspects of work is just silly.

>Can there be a job that pairs with writing or any other artistic pursuit?
Do shitty jobs for the experience. It is easier to write from memory than imagination. I recently started a call center job as I want to write a novel surrounding this soul eating environment. It is a bizarre place that I never could have imagined or learned from reading or watching vids about. The key is to mentally understand you don't have to work any specific day job forever- it frees you from feeling imprisoned.

Who’s assuming anything? You want some “worker bee” task, you can get one. Stop insisting you need to be exploited, moron

wrong. the salary enables you to achieve your dreams.
most dreams (quaint family home, travelling, arts and crafts) require copious amounts of money.

>being this mad at someone making money and succeeding in the free market

Unironically off yourself

Taking commands and following them to a 'tee' is not what MANY of us want when we think about work.

For some reason, many schools are creating workers. This means when you go into 7-11 and you tell the cashier you want to buy something without a bar code the dumbass cashier upholds her 'company standards' instead of just giving it to you for what you say the price is.

In reality (da real world), we all know that it is extremely important NOT to follow all the rules. I know for a fact I will rise to the top while not being a drone. That's ACTUALLY how the real world works -- reality was not always this bastardized and asinine.

So honestly, what you're talking about is how females perceive the working world (because I notice this problem the most with feminine people at convenience stores and banks), but how I perceive the working world is much different -- being kind to those around you at all times.

So while you perceive a really cruel world, with a bleak future, I perceive a beautiful one, where people are kind to those who want a service.

Guess who generates more income? :3

Why are people so infantile?

Don't want to work really hard to make money? Then live with as little money as possible, or gamble or commit a crime to make a lot of it really fast.

Can't handle living without a lot of money? Then change yourself, or make something creative from your situation, like art.

Not good at anything at all, and just really mediocre all around, stuck in a dead end job? Then why do you expect your life to be better than it is? Learn what the word resignation means. Or get off your ass and do one of the things I suggested above.

Your parents obviously coddled you, but you have a choice today, and you will make one whether you want to or not.

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>a full time job is too exhausting and takes too much time to actually leave you with a full potential artistic capacity
t. thinks working a standard 40 hour work week is "exhausting"

He’s not succeeding, doofus

Another non-answer not worth a (You)

I don't live in america where you need to have 3 full time jobs to actually have a decent live. Even one hour of work a day is too much. We didn't create the machines and robots to amuse us

>Work from 8-5
>Go to college from 5:30-10
>Get to my apartment at 10:30 just to find my wife crying
I sure love the free time to follow my dreams

You won't be in college forever.

no one is forcing you to get a job. by all means come up with something and survive in your own way.

He’ll be enslaved for the rest of his prime and retirement wont be an option because social security will be wiped out.
And that’s if he’s lucky enough to stay employed by this ever breaking system

>implying making the decision to go to college with loans = slavery
>implying there aren't many ways to obtain a good retirement / implying everyone desires to retire
>implying luck is the dominant variable for staying employed

It was actually a complex response, but thanks for the (You) anyway. :3

Students (in the US) are in debt for most of their lives now.
“Just be successful and you wont have to worry about retirement”. Do you know how ghoulish you sound?
>3rd point. Oh so clueless about the collapse

>Students (in the US) are in debt for most of their lives now.
And your point is?

>Do you know how ghoulish you sound?
Do you know how whiny you sound? Why do you deserve a good retirement? You're free to save your money or invest it wisely, if you are wise.

>Oh so clueless about the collapse
You sound like a Christcuck now. I thought you didn't like them?

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what is true is that doing anything worthwhile outside of the norm requirea long term investment. wages are a short term (low marignal cost) gain that can continuously distract from your longer term goals.

It won't take 4 years that I know since I don't go full time.
Then I will be working even more when I get my degree since I need experience.
I'm going to be a wageslave anyways, even if try to see it as an opportunity the our master give us.

>Then I will be working even more when I get my degree since I need experience.
What do you mean by "even more"? You're already working full time. You won't be working more than that, and you won't be going to college then, so you'll have more time to yourself.

>you won't be working more than full time.
If employers could they would have you sleeping in the company. I got memed into STEM since all my friends are engineers and I thought thats what i had to be and I have seen how none of them work in a 40hrs schedule.

The staff doing the work isn't a cost idiot.
They are the ones producing the wealth.
If the company is profiting them clearly the staff is generating more wealth than it costs to pay their salaries

They're working at shit jobs then, or they're shit people. Respect is mutual. If you're doing OT you get paid for that or you walk out.

Such a soi mentality. You get paid exactly what your time is worth. Don't like it? Why not become self-employed or better yet a subsistence farmer and work for no one but yourself.

>They are the ones producing the wealth.
like a hundred years ago,lol, the company is leveraged to the hilt, employess are literally working off the companies debt to the bank

Why the fuck should they get the profit and not the agreed upon salary when I came up with the idea and organized everything? People are tools, they didn't generate shit, they were used. I don't pay the fucking handsaw the profits when I build a house. They are paid the worth of their work. You are disposable therefore do not command the power to negotiate a cut. Stop being a bitch and just accept it or risk your own venture. You take this dynamic away they'll be nothing to motivate people because money has replaced the role of god and state. You have nothing effective to replace it with, you'll only create collapse and misery. Until you stop being a brainlet and become the greatest figure of the 21st century you will have to adapt. Even if you change the source of motivation you'll still be useless, just pampered. If you were an artist, you'll be the guy cleaning the brushes in the studio. Try to sneak your signature onto the bottom of the painting
Bow to your betters

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>Stop insisting you need to be exploited
I work a comfy office job on a 6-hour shift with a truckload of benefits and a decent salary. I feel anything but exploited when I wake up in the morning.

Depends on the salary. If you're being paid too much or much too little, you won't come up with justifications to stay in a job you hate. However, if you pay people too little to do a horrible job, they will come up with justifications outside of the money why it's worthwhile and not a horrible job. Lots of jobs are like that: they're paying you enough you would feel guilty admitting your price is that low, so you won't admit your price is low. If they gave you a raise which made money less necessary to you, you would say they aren't paying you enough to do the job. If they pay you too little to make genocide worth the money, then you come up with reasons why genocide should be done even if they didn't pay you. Though if they stop paying you a pittance to put people on the trains to the camps, suddenly working for them becomes not worth money again.
For instance, when products to wrong and start hurting people that bought the product to get help, nobody in the company who produced them will say they were being paid enough to willingly send out faulty product. They like to think if they were actively involved in a criminal exercise to hurt other humans, they would have asked for a bigger cut of the profits.

>to wrong
*go wrong