>Books that offer justification or relief for the suffering of humans and animals written by non-belivers (that is:no God, no Karma, no life after death, no rebirth, etc)*.
How to justify the universe to a human or animal that was born suffering, lived suffering and died suffering (an user gave an example a few days ago: how to justify the universe to a bird that emerged from the egg already sick and in pain, that spent three weeks suffering in the nest and finally was eaten by ants - keeping in mind that we know how birds' nervous systems work and that there is scientific certainty about the fact that they feel pain as much as we do, and that pain can be called suffering).
Another example: an African girl is born as a result of her mother's rape. She is taken from her mother as a baby and raised by people who treat her like an animal, beat her, give her dirty food. She sees other people being tortured, other women raped. One day a wave of hunger strikes the region, and the girl withers and withers and eventually dies of starvation. How to justify the existence of the universe to her if all she knew was pain and suffering?
*(Or by believers who not use any supernatural argument or their personal faith as justification or balm).
Good and bad are inherently interrelated. Good things can come out of the most terrible things and viceversa.
Lincoln Cruz
Why do you ask someone to justify the natural state of the universe?
It just is.
Robert Flores
What “good” can come out of those examples?
Lincoln Nguyen
You can't justify it to individuals in your example for most of the time. That's why belief in God, Karma, life after death, rebirth, etc persists among such individuals. However, most classical mythos and literature justify it in general - mortal men fighting against fate and will of Gods/trying to reach something impossible. Generally speaking, your suffering and sacrifice is worth it, if it ensures survival and/or better well-being of those you care for.
Many animals do it by instinct, you'll see a parent sacrifice itself so its offsprings could survive. You could also argue that the concept of sacrificing to the Gods/Forces of Nature in cultures comes from the same idea. You sacrifice your youngest offspring or such to have a 'better harvest' this/next season. In reality, you have less mouths to feed and more chance for rest of your offsprings to survive until the next season.
Eli Gutierrez
this user is on to something
Alexander Watson
I would like to write a play that would offer solace in the end for those who suffer, but without any promise of a God or an afterlife.
So far I've got no idea.
Kevin Thompson
After you die you get to not exist anymore and that tiny blip in eternity is instantly forgotten
Angel Walker
Don't internalize. The Sun will still rise after someone who suffered has passed away. The snows will still melt, the flowers will still bloom, the world will go on. If one was able to find even a grain of joy in witnessing that, even if the greater things in life did brought unimaginable suffering, one could still find solace. Think of it as a person in a cell, waiting for the gallows, if that person finds a flower breaking through the ground or a mouse he can share his crumbs with, then he could find peace. In theory at least.
Chase Perez
both good
>Don't internalize. The Sun will still rise after someone who suffered has passed away. The snows will still melt, the flowers will still bloom, the world will go on. If one was able to find even a grain of joy in witnessing that, even if the greater things in life did brought unimaginable suffering, one could still find solace. Think of it as a person in a cell, waiting for the gallows, if that person finds a flower breaking through the ground or a mouse he can share his crumbs with, then he could find peace. In theory at least.
quite beautiful, actually
Ryan Allen
In cases like the one you propose and really in any case one has to have a mindset of baring witness to the cruelties of being. Only by being are you able to judge this shit show for what it is. You have to adopt a kind of exaltation from hatred. It's not edifying in the least, it provides no solace but it can be a truth or a meaning to cling to. I plan to exit like that.
Xavier Clark
If one suffers in life, the one has to imagine a better state of life potentially exists, because if suffering exists then its absence must also, and a life without suffering may exist, a life with something other than suffering may exist, somewhere beyond the veil, inside of a dream, a dream dreamt in the end as death infinitesimally approaches, a dream that stretches to infinity, long after the veil is lifted, and the body is gone, consumed by the earth, then given birth again, infinity later, to realize the dream.
Justin Brooks
The Book of al-Ma'arri, translated by Paul Smith. Al-Ma'arri was a blind 10th century Arab poet who thought a great deal on this issue. I have to warn you that you may not like his conclusion, which sees the only conclusion one can make is to stop having children.
Robert Martinez
Any Borges on topics like the ones on this thread?
Gavin Perry
How is subjective suffering objectively bad? Even within the realm of subjectivity, what’s bad for one being may be good for another. This is such a childish problem.
Jaxson Scott
It's a childish problem and you didn't even come close to solving it. How is telling the tortured that the torturer takes just as much pleasure as they do suffering solace?
Luis Long
Anyone who focuses on his subjective feelings about the world will be destroyed. No matter how much you are suffering, you can always appreciate the objective truths and beauty of this existence. Conflict itself is meaningful. If it were not, then literature would not be so dominated by stories of conflict. You may be suffering, but at the same time, you can appreciate the meaning of the struggle. This type of thinking requires a mature mind, one detached from ego and emotions, a developed spirit.
Ryan Wilson
Yeah, I can tell you're free from ego. How can you appreciate something you've never seen? And how do you see an object that is not processed within your mind, painting it with the subject's color?
Owen Morris
I would answer but I don’t understand exactly what you’re asking
Hudson Gutierrez
You exult "objective truths and beauty of this existence", but how do you know of these things outside of the knowledge you processed and trust? How can one who knew only suffering possibly come to similar conclusions as you have? Moreover, you say conflict is meaningful. But what conflict? Is torture conflict? And how will the tortured perceive the conflict when the mind is too seared by pain to process anything but suffer?
Colton Powell
Didn't stop you from answering before.
Lincoln Cooper
>Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted If you are suffering, then the only thing that you can always hold onto is faith. Reason alone will do nothing. The absence of both reason and faith will just leave you with a raw sensation of suffering.
Christian Anderson
Justification is a spook. Just tell them to stop being a bitch or kill themselves so you don't have to hear them bitch.
Owen Miller
You can't choose to have faith. Once faith has fallen to doubt it can never be whole again, it has to be filled by deeper, more nuanced doubts in the doubts that fractured the original whole faith in the first place. To disregard doubt isn't faith, it's ignorance. And some people's lives are only filled with doubt in their faith, which can finally either lead to complete ignorance or faith in something else, though that something is rarely good and death may be preferable.
Jaxon Nelson
>You can't choose to have faith That’s your opinion. Deuteronomy 4:29 >But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. Proverbs 8:17 >I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. Jeremiah 29:13 >You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Matthew 7:7-8 >Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Isaiah 55:6-7 >Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. Lamentations 3:25 >The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him. James 4:8 >Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 2 Chronicles 7:14 >If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land. Matthew 5:6 >Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Benjamin Nguyen
Oh look, pascalboy is at it again
Lucas Garcia
The Brothers Karamazov.
Very rare book, OP. VERY VERY hard to find. I think it's by some Russian dude who got shot by a Chinese general while coaxing his horse up to the Mount Everest.
Don't tell anyone i told you this, OP. I don't want it to become mainstream. Kapishi?
Nathan Cook
>The Brothers Karamazov.
But doesn't it solve the problem with God and Jesus?
Bentley Garcia
First of all, "Justification" is an inherently Theological idea, second, these replies are moronic. There is no interdependence between Good and Evil, neither is there any Ontological difference, both are Monads, per the Monad, per its One Good of absolute freedom. You are allowed to debase yourself, not for its Ontological necessity, not for its Eschatological justification, not for the glory of God, not for your education, but simply by your free will and for your sake alone. That is the Good of God.
