If God is real then why doesn't he seem to ever reward his believers with benefits in this world, why is the reward always deferred to the next world? God has made man composed of spirit and flesh, so why does Paul say we should give no attention to what the flesh wants? Isn't that an essential part of being human? Why is the flesh at war with the spirit as Paul says if man is composed of both, did God design man to be made of two parts that are at war with eachother like a sadist? Why does God create man with the natural desire for comfort, material resources, companionship and then require him to endure hardship, poverty and loneliness? Wouldn't God send some kind of actual tangible this-worldly signal that a person like this is doing something right instead of requiring him to believe strictly based on a metaphysical promise when his life is disintegrating in front of him? Especially when those who seem entirely unconcerned with God seem to do a better job leading a fulfilling lifestyle, you don't see them being mired in depression, poverty, suffering, or social isolation. But God throughout history never seems to show interest in ever doing anything about it in this world on either side of the equation. If anything the correlation between a fulfilling life in this world and belief in God seems inverse. But if God is the designer of both the world and its inhabitants, how can this inverse correlation exist? That means either God is indifferent, or he lacks authority over this world, or has screwed up the design or he is merely sitting back while people are being saved or damned and neither of those groups even know that they're doing something right or wrong, because there appears to be no signal that would suggest it. Evil people can lead lives totally at peace with themselves in abundance until their death and the good can be destroyed by suffering until their life, consisting mostly of distress comes to an end. But there seems to be total indifference and silence from God about either of these situations in this world, as if God was foreign to his own creation. It's only ever about the next world and the requirement is to believe that in the next one all will be better and that one should forget entirely about the actual tangible one he or she is presently experiencing, the only one a human has ever known to actually exist. I guess if God is indeed real, the creator of the world and in authority over the world, then I just don't understand the constant deferral. You can say "free will". But why does the exercise of free will according to God's law in the world he has created lead to suffering? And the solution to that is that we should forget about this world and just wait for world 2.0. Doesn't that suggest something is a little off? I guess it's a part of the whole thing I just don't understand.
If God is real then why doesn't he seem to ever reward his believers with benefits in this world...
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Calvin tackles this topic. God doesn’t reward and punish every thing in this life to indicate that we will be rewarded/punished in the next life.
>Calvin
>seem to ever reward his believers with benefits in this world
fist of wrong exactly form the start did you even read the OT ?
Second the life after death will be bigger reward than any treasure you can find here.
>God has made man composed of spirit and flesh, so why does Paul say we should give no attention to what the flesh wants? Isn't that an essential part of being human? Why is the flesh at war with the spirit as Paul says if man is composed of both, did God design man to be made of two parts that are at war with eachother like a sadist? Why does God create man with the natural desire for comfort, material resources, companionship and then require him to endure hardship, poverty and loneliness? Wouldn't God send some kind of actual tangible this-worldly signal that a person like this is doing something right instead of requiring him to believe strictly based on a metaphysical promise when his life is disintegrating in front of him
man is not made only of flesh and spirit there is the heart(noose) too, and the hart gets clouded if you submit blindly to the flesh.
God did not create man imperfect man made his choice in eating the forbidden fruit when he was not ready for it. So man himself introduced evil in the world.
I can go on anymore, but you have to pick up some basic commentary on the bible they answer simple question as that.
>Trust the Plan.
Imagine being a Qristcuck.
Wouldn't occasional reward and punishment work as better indications of a morally correct or wrong behavior?
Wouldn't you give someone good who has suffered for years a chance to take a breath and enjoy something rather than being trampled upon to death?
Wouldn't you give someone evil who lives in abundance and peace he has obtained by comitting morally depraved acts an "unfortunate" event as a wake up call?
Instead the most common result I have observed is total indifference or silence. The trampled upon who seem to be able to change their situation are those who got tired of being trampled upon and took things into their own hands by violently resisting. Those who waited on God? They're still being trampled upon today or they died in that situation.
I've almost never seen an evil person whose actions lead to abundance re- evaluate whether he did something wrong. It only ever happens when they lose something.
Most often these situations I find have total indifference for their accompaniment. Wicked men can go on to build a life of comfort for generations of their descendants and the good might remain in slavery, poverty and distress for generations. Historically, this whole dance is observed by total indifference. There are just brute facts and it seems to matter little in this world what kind of moral connotation they have. The refuge of those who are on the "losing" end of this is to pair their suffering with the suffering of Christ and hope that a spiritual plane exists where this merits something. Perhaps one can receive a mystical experience confirming it, instead of just relying on common psychological imagination. But if not, what is there left as hope for the believer?
Flesh matters a lot, our bodies will be resurrected in the flesh, glorified flesh of some sort.
Our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit. We have to take care of them. Physical training is of some use, or little use..but it's not "useless" like you seem to suggest.
> God is real then why doesn't he seem to ever reward his believers with benefits in this world
He does, but outsiders might be unable to discern those benefits. Because joy of the soul and internal toughness, tranquil humility are not easily observable from the outside.
>Wouldn't occasional reward and punishment work as better indications of a morally correct or wrong behavior?
Have you seen what sex-addicts, drug addicts and violent-angry thugs look like?
If a persons life is steeped in sin it eventually manifests on their complexion, they'll look unhealthy, they'll never be at peace, they'll get tattoos and weird piercings, they'll talk like retards and act compulsively. It's not a beautiful thing at all.
The more someone sins the more they get haunted and owned by that sin.
Yes, God of OT seems to be politically invested in making Israel successful. That seems to cease in NT and if one observes the world around him and the historical record it seems like God is almost completely disinterested in providing this-worldly rewards to believers or moral people. The focus is as you point out in your second line on the next world, when things don't appear to be right it seems like the answer is always that of deferral to the next world.
>man is not made only of flesh and spirit there is the heart(noose) too, and the hart gets clouded if you submit blindly to the flesh.
We are not talking about blindly submitting to flesh. The question is why is God in this world seemingly indifferent to the good suffering and the evil succeeding. Why does there seem to be almost an inverse correlation between following God's law and happiness in this world. This is especially an interesting case because God is both the author of the world, the man and the law, so how can it be that a creature he authored, following a law he authored in a world he authored is met more often than not by suffering? Why does he always have to defer to the world 2.0? Why is there total silence when the good get trampled upon to death without a breather and equal silence when others accumulate abundance and comfort through one vile act after another.
I am merely trying to understand why is this the case and why does it happen in such a way, I know my understanding is not good enough. I don't know maybe this is intended to be God's mystery and I don't have the mental capacity as a human to understand all the finer workings. I am completely open to that possibility.
Being good is its own reward and being evil is its own punishment.
God already gave you all that you need and all the suffering you have is the result of your own expectations.
The true reward is dicovering that all that you ever need was always there for you to begin with and the reason you suffer is because you want to have goods and be happy on your own terms and not on God's terms.
I don’t agree with your first question, since I started going back to church I’ve seen myself blessed in ways I feel I don’t deserve at times. Aside that, you have to understand Genesis to get the rest of how God works. Adam are from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil and was cast out of eden. This knowledge of good and evil induces man to sin, and has been passed down more or less epigenetically for millennia. We didn’t have to be suffer the weaknesses of the flesh, it was choice made long ago. To be like Adam before the fall you must negate the flesh. It’s pretty simple
Also you have to be blind to think god is not active in the world. Even when the food die young and evil reigns, it’s part of his plan in ways that don’t make sense within our limited frame. But God has given us the choice to be Good or Evil within this framework
>The trampled upon who seem to be able to change their situation are those who got tired of being trampled upon and took things into their own hands by violently resisting.
self defence is not agins Christian teaching
why are you presenting it in that way ? like Christians cant work for themselves in this world?
Christians have saint kings emperors and warriors.
>Have you seen what sex-addicts, drug addicts and violent-angry thugs look like?
That is a total exageration. I know many healthy looking, good-looking people who look harmless who have committed sinful acts. I'd suggest way worse than becoming addicted to a drug. I also know people who are not evil who are alcoholics and look terrible because they are mercilessly exploited by their employers and they have no alternatives.
Killing is still a sin, even back when Christian communities were being terrorized by pagans
St. Basil recommended 3 years without communion in such cases
>Why does there seem to be almost an inverse correlation between following God's law and happiness in this world. This is especially an interesting case because God is both the author of the world, the man and the law
you are wrong there in this insane statement based on absolutely nothing
Why in the next world because that will be a world whiteout evil, and this world is corrupt as we know for the fall, the restoration of the world to its pre fall state is critical to Christianity of course this corrupt world comes second
St Justinian recommended burning faggots for being faggots. So justified killing, by the ruling tribunals, is not an issue.
OT is clear on this as well.
Jesus also said it would be better to kill those who make little ones stumble, tie a mill stone round their neck and toss em in the ocean.
I will give you an example of a few like this I know personally.
Let's call this one Sandra. She is effectivelly what we call a gold-digger. She was caught stealing at her workplace in her youth and got fired. Then was the lover of a rich businessman. Then she got married to a different guy who owned a successful business together with his brother. By being a total nuisance she managed to destroy the business and the relationship between brothers and got divorced. You would think some kind of punishment would follow here? Nope, she is 50 years old and looks 30. Now married to an extremely rich businessman living in Dubai. She accomplished exactly what she always wanted, not sure she even sees her son, and she looks young, healthy and behaves like a nice person.
Let's call this person Brad. Brad owned a business with his best friend Tom. As everyone knew Tom was actually the one who made the business sucessful but Brad managed to convince him to join him as a partner. Things were good for a while, Tom was working 12 hours a day, Brad 4, both got equal pay but nobody paid attention because there was plenty of money to be had. The 2008 crisis hit and things went downhill, Brad start pressuring Tom into decisions he didn't want to make, to the point where Tom suffered 2 heart attacks from the stress. Eventually Tom left Brad head the company. What did Brad do? Take out all the money the company had and buy property for himself. Both are the same age, Tom today is a broke, unhealthy looking individual with an alcohol issue, his daughter moved to a different continent to find work while his son slaves away 12 hours a day to make barely any money. Tom has nothing in his bank account except a sizeable loan he has to return and his family is basically destitute.
Brad is free most of the days, lives by renting out a villa to tourists and his son who does nothing producitve is set up for life. Brad looks about 20 years younger and healthier than Tom and in general displays a more joyful even "good" countenance.
This is what the real world looks like. It's not about the broken down drug addicts, sex-addicts or thugs, in fact I'd bet many of them are sons and daughters stemming from a situation like that of Tom.
Where is God in all of this? There is total silence and indifference to this. The ones who "won" are those who were more self-interested, got the money and packed it up. The moral connotation or what was right in the situation is worthless, when a person like Tom's children might die in poverty or become an addict nobody cares about the moral connotation or the history of the thing. They are just addicts, toothless, ugly, people right.
>you are wrong there in this insane statement based on absolutely nothing
You're telling me suffering and being a disciple of God being correlated is based on nothing? Except you can find warnings to that effect inside the scripture not to mention personal testimonies of saints.
I'll answer in brief.
>Why doesn't God award his people materially
Material reward can only be gotten by forsaking material goods. Virtue is what produces the greatest good in the temporal world. Thus those who follow the natural law do get rewarded in this world by God in a roundabout way, but those who get the greatest reward are those who realize how truly worthless all material objects are.
>Why is the spirit at war with the flesh
Because of the Fall the flesh has taken on a concupiscent nature. For example, man knows that chastity is more virtuous than lust yet his body 'naturally' lusts. Similar is true for all vices. The body is hence at war with the spirit who knows, understands, and seeks the good but is constantly thwarted by his fallen nature. Also death and suffering entered the world because of the Fall.
>The godless lead a better lifestyle
This is most certainly untrue. The godless are the least virtuous of us all and are thus dominated by the desires of the flesh. They consistently have higher rates of depression and addiction etc because they are shackled to their material condition and do not tend to the needs of the spirit.
>It seems inverse the belief in God and satisfaction with life
This is statistically untrue. Though I hate this world because it is fallen I have never found myself dissatisfied because I store up my treasures in heaven and this life is fleeting. Death and misery is horrifying but ultimately it doesn't bother me because it cannot compare to the infinity of heaven.
>Evil people can live lives totally at peace with themselves
"Thus, a good man, though a slave, is free; but a wicked man, though a king, is a slave. For he serves, not one man alone, but what is worse, as many masters as he has vices." - St. Augustine, City of God
>We should forsake this world for the next
Yes and no. Forsake trying to create heaven on Earth because it is impossible. There will always be pain and misery and in our modern age where we try to create heaven on Earth we have in reality created hell on Earth. We still believe in doing works of mercy and charity to alleviate suffering but we are under no illusion that suffering can be wholly overcome.
Study Catholic theology regarding these topics and you will find the proper understanding. The answers to these questions are much more complex than I lead on. God bless.
you are taking this too much at face value. i am not talking about being physically trampled upon. i am talking about the situation where the good person will almost certainly lose to the wicked person unless he himself engages in wicked behavior. it happens time and time again that being moral is a downfall for someone when somebody is willing to lie, steal, manipulate etc. for his own benefit. should then the believer engage in this kind of tactics himself or accept his position of poverty and isolation?
Again you are falling into this situation where man is supposed to tend to nothing but his spiritual desires. Is the fact that I enjoy eating and there is tasteful food on Earth a design of God, or a result of the fall? Is the fact that I have a desire for companionship a design of God or the result of the fall? Is the fact that I want to have a roof over my head instead of sleeping in the streets in freezing temperatures a result of the fall? Are you saying that all material needs of man are the result of the fall? Some of these needs have to be satisfied in one way or another for the body to live if nothing else.
Again, your example of a godless man having many vices controlling him isn't something I see in reality. Someone might have scammed others out of millions and now simply leads a moderate life of comfort until the end of his life. Why would we assume that he is now a drug addict, a sex addict, a glutton any more than a person trying to be a Christian is? In fact often the poor and destitute become alcoholics or gorge on mcdonalds as ways of coping with the fact that their psychological and physical needs of the body are not being met. I suspect that not everybody has the capacity of being an ascetic monk.
Very succinctly put and orthodox.
So when a family gets destroyed because someone evil destroyed it, the ensuing suffering is the result of my own expectations? When somebody gets fired from his job because somebody lied about him and he struggles to pay his bills, he suffers because he wants to be happy on his own terms? Then everything outside of the conviction that God gave us everything, even if we have nothing, is superflous. Including family, friends, our bodies, our health, our relationships, all of this is superflous. Should I even suffer if my mother dies? After all I already have everything I need.
>Again you are falling into this situation where man is supposed to tend to nothing but his spiritual desires.
This is untrue. Our innate desires are not intrinsically evil, for the good lies in the mean. This is to say that the constant desire for more material possessions or the endless pursuit of material comfort are futile. This is what is meant by saying that the flesh is at war with the spirit - for the flesh is never satisfied and it is the spirit that reins it in.
>Again, your example of a godless man having many vices controlling him isn't something I see in reality. Someone might have scammed others out of millions and now simply leads a moderate life of comfort until the end of his life.
Have you known any wicked people? I know many men who have made ill-gotten gains and they are divorced, have no relationships with their kids, are constantly chasing after material gain, have no real friends, and many do have alcohol and drug addictions or at the very least bad habits. These things are not unrelated. Your principles affect all aspects of your life. People who scam others do not know how to live moderate lives, that is why they scam others.
Few rich people remain rich if they didn't come to it by hard work or intelligence. At best they might live at no net loss but no gain either since they don't know how to increase it intentionally.
>hi-its-god-here
The image attached to your post, and virtually all of the concerns expressed in your post, refer to the Demiourgos, Ialdabaoth, and to the world that he currently rules, not God.
God does reward his real children, and that don't include no filthy goyim.
Not wanting to freeze to death or have a destroyed family is not constant desire for more material possessions or the endless pursuit of material comfort. Again, God is silent on these matters. It is enough to sleep in a bed in a shared room. Then it is enough to sleep on a couch in the neighborhood, then it is enough to sleep on the pavement. Always say thanks.
>Have you known any wicked people?
Yes I do. Your portrayal is a caricature.
I'm sorry you're having such difficult time understanding, user. Reread my posts.
I do not take protestantism and calvinism seriously.
For casual consideration:
1. Why would he reward anyone at all? Have you found the truth of your life from or against which measures of reward can be reasonably known?
2. Why would he reward in the "Newtonian" sense in general? Even the most petty things cannot be held by parameters like regret, and can be simultaneously regretted and not regretted if given enough thought or enough time. If they can take on such sickening strangeness merely be being stretched across the distance between your perspective then and your perspective now, what will your whole life be like when stretched across the distance between your perspective and God's? Will you even see this parameter of reward you speak of now?
Because God is a douchebag. He actually vexes those closest to finding salvation the most out of anyone. He want's obedient zombies. Even if you try to become one of the obedient zombies then you'll recieve "a thorn in the flesh" whereby you'll hear demons persecute you, deceive you and you'll suffer physical and mental trials as well.
t. speaking from experience as someone who was vexed and ultimately deceived by the devil
>t. speaking from experience as someone who was vexed and ultimately deceived by the devil
what do you mean?
I experienced the Holy Spirit. I know God is real. I also experienced the wiles and cruelty of the devil and his commanded principalities. I was made to grieve away the holy spirit by falling for a particularly subtle trick. Also you get convicted by the spirit for things like enjoying Bach. And while the demons vex you (you'll actually hear them) you're just supposed to call out to God the whole time until he answers. The game is rigged against you. Antinatalism is where its at.
3Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
I know that. I am merely asking why it has to be the case that the "reward" is always resting or deferred into the next world or heaven. What is the logic behind this.
>particularly subtle trick
If you don't mind the question, what was it?
>Also you get convicted by the spirit for things like enjoying Bach.
What is wrong about Bach?
One of the most perfidious works of the Anglo is the conflation of Morality with expedience. The mystery of Anglo rule of law and jurisprudence being so diligent despite his hatred of Logic is fully revealed when considering that it is all for money, justice satisfied is quite literally synonymous with a full stomach.
The trick was convincing me that I was too evil to protect my inner child from internal corruption and to consecrate it to God (So I said "Jesus take the child"). This grieved away the spirit (I felt it leave the right side of my chest as a bird fleeing its cage)
Also nothing is wrong with Bach, you're just not supposed to enjoy things if you are following Christ.
>you're just not supposed to enjoy things if you are following Christ.
that doesn't seem true
the picture is so good.
Looking at those video titles...this is why Si-dominants should remain Atheist.
Also:
youtube.com
>COOOOOOOMMMMIIIIING AAAAAAAAAAAAAA etc. etc.
>Si-dominants
No, he was a normal dude. Its just if you start following God you lose your personality.
Here's a much better question, if Gid is supposed to be real, why can't believers present any empirical evidence for him, or even construct a falsifiable proposition concerning his existence?
*God
Why do you write like this?
What is the purpose?
>in his dream he conflated god with a literal archon
rip that guy
I am just asking a question out of curiousity. I am interested in how this higher logic behind suffering works.
NOT LITERATURE
I'm not exactly a gnostic even though I think God is an importunate dick. I don't see why a being existing outside of our concept of time and space can't torment us forever. That guy is saved because he's enough of a slave to worship the big guy. We're all going to hell. The problem is existence. A being which does not exist has the advantage of an ontological veil protecting it by nondefinition from all manner of harm.
>Wouldn't occasional reward and punishment work as better indications of a morally correct or wrong behavior?
That would just be behavioral conditioning, God wants you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.