UGH I HATE AMERICAN LITERATURE

You must dislike Nabokov too because he said the same thing. He called himself "an American writer born in Russia".

Moby Dick and Catcher in the Rye

Americans say this, yet when a Japanese or a Mexican born person call himself American all the faux-patriots come out of the woodwork to explain why they can't be American. Make up your mind, faggots.

Everything the Americans wrote after the 1800s is trash, and their academia chooses to promote said trash, unleashing upon the world such Anglo insanities as free verse. Whitman was a hack and a prole who was too stupid to write proper poetry like Longfellow.
It's not that American literature is necessarily trash, but how they actively and consciously promote the destructive and trash parts of it as "classics".

>Americans all hold the same opinion

They're good but they make you question whether or not they're actually good or they're being pushed own your throat because of America's power in the world.

The best British poet of the 20th century was T. S. Eliot.

who lived where?

Switzerland.

>what is exile
>what is immigration
so people are the place they live in? Joyce was Italian?

Joyce's mind never left Dublin.

American literature has some good works, but most of it is inferior to European literature.

Eliot was a hack fraud

That's what I used to think until I read him.

Name one work that is better than Moby Dick, The Golden Bowl, and The Recognitions

Any of Dosto's big works and Steppenwolf by Hesse comes to mind, but there is plenty more.

The Divine Comedy.

Melville, Faulkner, Fitzgerald. anyone who doesn't recognize their greatness is beyond help.

Well if that's how we're going to do this then Nabokov's mind very much settled in the US.
>There's nothing to look at. New tenement houses and old churches do not interest me. The hotels there are terrible. I detest the Soviet theater. Any palace in Italy is superior to the repainted abodes of the Tsars. The village huts in the forbidden hinterland are as dismally poor as ever, and the wretched peasant flogs his wretched cart horse with the same wretched zest. As to my special northern landscape and the haunts of my childhood – well, I would not wish to contaminate their images preserved in my mind.

Look guys, American literature isn't bad, but there are countries in this world where literature has been written since 1000s of year, of course they're gonna be better than literature from a country which only exists since 200 years.

You know you're a complete failure when an art hoe has better taste than you

All adolescent tier.

um ok I agree with you though

They are in the same tier

what does that even mean?

>Dosto
>adolescent tier
lmao you're stupid

Yes Dosto is for teenagers

>The Golden Bowl and The Recognitions are on the same level as The Divine Comedy
Never go full retard.

Two things are infinite, the universe and American ignorance.

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group responsibility.... whoa....

I would say three things: the universe, American ignorance, and European smugness (based on ignorance)

???
They aee extremely well written works of immense complexity

We're all humans.

About Nabokov the important thing would be, if he where did he learn. Did he learn as a russian and write about america or did he learn as an american

>group responsibility
What, are we Chinese now? America isn't a hive-mind, maybe France has a full thimble's worth of individuality but America runs on new perspectives.

It should be a lot better given the population size and ability to acquire anyone from around the world. It's way overblown though. Half the standard Americans authors are trash and only known because someone decided to set them up as good literature decades ago and have only become widely known because of that.

>They aee extremely well written works of immense complexity
They are extremely well written works of immense complexity that almost no one on this board has read. Americans bring them up because they’re supposed to be good; Europeans either ignore them, or dismiss them out of hand, as they prefer instead to sniff their own farts.

>group responsibility

I as an individual claim no responsibility for people who are not me. Go fuck yourself you sjw-like fuck

Oh yeah I guess I should have replied to

He arrived to America at age 46. Already a mature person. And published his first 10 or so novels in Russian. He wasn't American-made by any stretch of the imagination.

Germans > Ancient Greek >Americans > the rest of the world

sorry, but it's not avoidable even in individualistic societies

Yet still nowhere near close the Comedy, which is arguably a top 5 best works of literature in history.

>Germans > Ancient Greek >English>French> the rest of the world
FTFY

It's only unavoidable as long as people keep thinking it's a thing. It shouldn't be.

If you’re excluding Nabokov you have to include T. S. Eliot

I'd take that deal.

it's easier to unjustly punish many people than one person

The people you’re referring to don’t give a shit about literature.

>american literature
it's alright, not the greatest ever, but also not the worst. rather medium tier. both sides are delusional.

In his wiki he also lived in germany, he is pretty much international, he is like those US soccer player who grows in another country

And people tend to overlook this fact even more.
Whole humanity could be seen as one swarm.

>Yet still nowhere near close the Comedy
I’d add the Decameron as well.

But let’s face facts. The only major works Italy can claim are 700 years old and nothing much of value (except maybe Lampedusa) has been produced since. When discussing the comparative worths of literary corpora in different languages, Italian hardly even rates an honorable mention.

The thing that people don't understand is that since America was originally a group of British colonies, all British literature prior to the Revolutionary War is equally part of its literary canon.

So, for example, to the user bringing up the Divine Comedy, I raise him Milton, Shakespeare, and Chaucer, which are equally ours.

Ariosto, Leopardi, Calvino, Papini, just to name a few. But yeah, contemporary Italian literature is not in the brightest state, but the same could be said about any literature. Italy's population has also never been that big, though.

It's the other way around, American literature belongs to the Brits.

Any American literature from prior to the Revolutionary War is equally theirs, yes. Anything afterwards is not, nor is theirs ours, as our relation was severed.

Nabokov may or may not be considered American, but Lolita is undeniably a work of American literature.

Also we can avoid this silly game if when comparing literature by countries, our European friends would operate in a modern context, comparing literature of the time period during which America existed as its own nation, rather than running to hide behind medieval texts.

>What the fuck is this awful opinion?
Americans who say this are either SJWs (it can’t be good! It was written by dead white males!) or “grass is greener” types who think that contrarian opinions are signs of sophistication and/or intellectualism. Non-Americans who say this generally are clutching at straws; they believe their countries to be politically irrelevant, so they seek meaning in very, very subjective cultural relevance. In all cases, people with this opinion are poorly read and have little to no idea what they’re talking about.

It was first published in France, though. Books don't have nationalities. Besides, what would count towards the nationality of a book? The setting? Then Romeo and Juliet is an Italian play and Hamlet a Danish one. The author's nationality? Sure, but which one?

Then that means Shakespeare and Milton aren't actually yours. They belong to the colonial Brits in America (and mainland Brits), not to modern Americans.

>anime poster
>defends american "literature"
Checks out.

You have no legitimate basis for creating a break between the colonial British and Americans, as the colonial British formed America and became Americans. Anyone who lived through the war exists in both groups. You don't have a way to weasel out of this fact, unfortunately.

Also the same sort of literary legacy exists for Australia and Canada.

Isn't a book cataloged more accuratelly if you base it in the original language? Wouldn't lolita be an english novel made by a russian a more accurate classification?

I should add that some people who post this don’t believe it and are only doing it to stir up shit/get butthurt replies from both sides. God knows that this is a lot easier than having an actual informed conversation about literature, more’s the pity.

I don't have to do that, their independence war did all the work when it came to breaking ties with the mainland. Post-independence Americans have no claim over English culture. Even Canada has a gretear claim to Britishness since Queen Elizabeth is still considered the monarch over there.

This pretty much. Literature should be categorized by language, not by nationality.

The war broke political ties, not cultural ties. Literature produced prior to the war is part of the cultural heritage of both countries. Arguably literature produced after the war is as well, although of course native literature plays a larger role in the respective countries.

America did not arise from a vacuum, user, and it has a cultural past stretching centuries before its existence. The idea that it became a wholly new cultural entity in 1776 would be quite a surprise to the people who had been British citizens the year prior. I know you like to think, "Well at least I have Shakespeare!" but it's a hollow consolation.

They don't like the country, so they dismiss anything associated with it. See also: anons claiming that The Four Great Classics of Chinese literature are garbage because "Chinamen bugpeople have no souls"

So you're saying America and Britain are the actually the same entity?

I highly doubt more than a handful of colonial Americans in 1610 had ever heard of Shakespeare.

This is true. Xenophobia clouds objective judgment of foreign works of art.

No, I’m saying that if your reading comprehension is so poor you really shouldn’t be here.

>Xenophobia
probably self-loathing in the case of OP's art hoe.

That's too bad. I thought it sounded like an interesting theory. Not as cool as "The Roman Empire never actually disappeared" but still pretty curious.

Why would they be the same entity? They’re two different countries/cultures. But it’s undeniable that the US has had (and continues to have) a profound cultural influence on Britain, and vice-versa.

If you’re looking for two countries that are pretty much the same entity, the US and Canada (except for Quebec) are a better choice.

I hate this country but some of my favorite writers are American

This. I think we should learn to separate the artist from his homeland.

I don’t think this is possible — in the far majority of cases cultural background and day-to-day cultural influences are part and parcel of the work.

I know we can't separate the homeland from the artist but I mean in the way of *our* personal views on the artist's country. We should strive for objectivity.

Maybe for intellectually lazy collectivists like yourself.

>oi mate why is America so shitty mate? why are they obese and why do they put the month before the day? Oi oi oi bloody 'ell mate
>oi i reckon all American literature is ours mate

Absolutely agreed, and it will absolutely never happen. Humans aren’t objective animals.

Hungarian literature is amazing though

I'm not even English, though.

Disagree. If anything is enhanced by human subjectivity, it's art.

>I have no argument so I'm going to attribute shit to you that you never said
this is the power of the europoor

read the whole thread faggot

French here, we read Edgar Poe in both French and English classes in high school.

>Barth
there's your problem

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>tfw I larped as both american and foreigner throughout all the thread and nobody noticed it

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>I have no argument so I'm going to deflect
A russian immigrant to america declared that he was an american writer. Your response is to declare that other americans don't agree, without citation by the way, as of that has any bearing on the writer, or people in this thread, who disagree
Then you started shitting yourself when I called you out on it.

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I don't understand why Europeans love Poe so much, he isn't very good.

>A russian immigrant to america declared that he was an american writer

Not him but citation needed

You wouldn't understand.

So would you agree T. S. Eliot was British and trannies are actual women?

it's just elitism. people wanting to be better than something, and since american culture is so low brow... tell them to read faulkner and henry roth, and if they keep talking shit of american literature stop caring for them as readers

Read the thread, euronig

Did T.S. Eliot say he was a british writer? if so, probably yes.
nationality is a social construct. sex ain't though, but nice try changing the subject when you're being btfo.
Nabi wrote from an american cultural perspective, so his claim to americanism is valid.
I've never read Eliot (I don't read "literature" made by islanders), but if he fits into british "culture", and claims that ""culture"", then he is absolutely a british writer.

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Also french here : Truman Capote "In cold blood", Steinbeck "the grapes of wrath", Hemnigway "Thr old man and the sea", Fitzgerald "the great gatsby"... etc etc

I used to do the same thing on /ck/ and bait people. Kek.

It's bot that their better, it just that there is more of them.

here's your other (you)

You larped as both a baker and a chef? What even happens on /ck/??

There nothing in the thread about him declaring himself as an american writer, and i'm not from EU nor a nig

>nationality is a social construct. sex ain't though,
Gender is also a social construct. Nabokov hasRussian blood and was born and educated in Russia, so he's literally Russian. You can't apply the rules differently. Larping as an American is the same as larping as a woman.

>gender is a social construct
go back to your discord please. the board is fucked enough without you shilling your nonsense here too

read the fucking thread again, lazy retard.

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>go back to your discord please. the board is fucked enough without you shilling your nonsense here too
Literally not an argument. You just got BTFO kek nice try though

gender is a synonym for biological sex, and therefore not a construct.
you're not a woman just because you say you are.
Nabi was an american author
read the thread
have a nice day, faggot

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>gender is a synonym for biological sex
Fundamentally wrong and misguided. Sex is different from gender.
>you're not a woman just because you say you are.
Then you're also not an American just because you say you are. You can't have it both ways, faggot. If you support Nabokov being American you also support trannies.
>Nabi was an american author read the thread
I've read the thread. You need to read, too:

There is not qoute or citations about your claims in this thread, the only qoute is how he preffer various countries over russia, so i guess you are only pretending to be retarded

>Citation needed
Nabokov, Strong Opinions, 1973

Baudelaire.

Thanks

No one outside of America cares about America, we don't read your shitty literature, we don't care about your shitty little

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American literature is dog shit.

>islander thinks he has a right to speak

What are you going to do about it?

You high fructose corn syrup chugging, common core cuntbrained, onions addled, two plane seat buying, mayonnaise slurping, fizzy drink drenched lump of lard?

Except for maybe 'war-mongering,' that describes your rainy little socialist island too.

>my philosophical indoctrination class told me that the definition has changed according to them therefore it must be true

Literally the only substantial arguement for trannys being acceptable and right and it not being a mental illness due to trauma (which it absolutely is according to any clinician not politically indoctrinated) is that metaphysically there was a mistake in the splitting of the soul into physical vessels prebirth which is tenuous at best.

Not including Hemmingway, Pound or Poe

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Hemingway was Spanish and Pound was Italian, though. Because they live in such places and thus become that.

>Truman Capote "In cold blood",
really?

It's a good book, yes. I never understood the American disdain towards Capote.

War mongering applies to all NATO and Soviet-bloc countries, so it very much applies to the British. In any case, given their own history it’s absolutely absurd for any Eurolard to lay this charge.

Of course, the core issue here is the increasing cultural irrelevance of Europe in general. The Euro fart sniffers ITT know this damn well, hence their seething rage at the culture that has BTFO’ed their own. Either that, or Eurotard education is so dismal that these cretins actually believe the ignorant crap they’ve been spewing.

>the American disdain towards Capote
In my experience the only Americans who dislike him are /pol/tards who haven’t read any of his stuff but dismiss him out of hand because we was gay. Capote was quite good.

It's almost like a country with a population of 320+ million has a mix of different opinions. Shocking.

>Because they live in such places and thus become that
A very profound insight, user. It certainly explains why so many posters ITT are assholes.

That's why Nabokov was American, too. The moment you set foot on a foreign country you magically become that nationality/culture. It's literally in the Bible.

Nabokov lived in so many places it’s impossible to assign a fixed nationality to him. But American probably is the most accurate of all the choices. He was an American citizen, lived in the US longer than he did Russia, and considered himself “an American author, born in Russia, educated in England, [who] studied French texts.”

>But American probably is the most accurate of all the choices.
Russian is literally the most logical choice, burger. He arrived to America already a man.

He left Russia while still a boy.

He lived in the US longer than he did Russia, was an American citizen, and described himself as an American author. His most admired/influential books were all written in English. I’m sorry if these facts upset you, but facts they are.

But if you’re still butthurt, go ahead and consider him Swiss — he lived there for 25 years.

imagine being this mad about being losing an argument on the internet

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don't argue with him. he admitted up the thread that he's just trolling

I'm being honest, lad. Not sure why that bothers you.

>He lived in the US longer than he did Russia, was an American citizen, and described himself as an American author. His most admired/influential books were all written in English. I’m sorry if these facts upset you, but facts they are.
Then why was his spoken English so shite? Was it just an act? I know some Mexicans who speak better English than him. Nabby was just a Russian exile larping as American for the keks. He trolled us all.

>get disproven at every turn
>has to wait for everyone who contradicted him to leave the thread before strawmaning them
why are you so afraid of people on the internet proving you wrong?

literally not an argument.

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>literally not an argument.
Never intended it to be an argument just an peculiar observation. Can you explain why? Nabby spoke better French and Russian than English yet lived in America longer than anywhere else.

>get disproven at every turn
you're delusional bucko. lots of my replies were left unanswered.
>has to wait for everyone who contradicted him to leave the thread before strawmaning them
I'm writing in every thread in this board.
>why are you so afraid of people on the internet proving you wrong?
Am I?

He was known for his writing, not his oration. Face it: Nabby's a freedombro.

>He was known for his writing, not his oration.
But what does that have to do with anything?
>Face it: Nabby's a freedombro.
Too Russian to be American.

>am I?
yeah. read the thread

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Hmm.

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I've actually heard this firsthand also, which is weird to me, as they always go to Russian or Japanese literature instead. Melville, Faulkner and Twain are some of the greats no matter which language and to deliberately go out of your way to think so little of their works tells me more about you than anything else.

>Racism against African-Americans appalled Nabokov, who touted Pushkin's multiracial background as an argument against segregation.
Wait, was he a cuck?? lmao

>I don't understand
That's because you're retarded

It wouldn't matter whether Nabokov was American or not, his writing is mediocre and pretentious drivel. It doesn't disprove OP's point about American literature being shit, it confirms it (if we want to call him American).

>his nationality is american so he isn't an american writer
nice, here's another (you), champ

most of his literature is set in europe.

he was just a whore who sold himself to the highest bidder

Russians at least look white even if behavior-wise they’re nearly as bad as the coloreds.
Japs and Mexicans are why we make nukes and walls

shit bait senpai.
here's a pity (you)

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>his nationality is american so he isn't an american writer
More like he had three nationalities, therefore he's not exclusively one single thing.

...

>let me hide the fact that my argument was that he was a russian writer exclusively by moving the goalposts to him being a multinational writer
If your standard is nationality then he is an american writer, in addition to other nationalities, and therefore belongs on OPs list.

based and redpiled

More like he's Russian, in addition to other (lesser) nationalties. Also, "moving the goalposts" is a meme. There are no rules here. Either way Mother Russia always wins.

Dosto's revenge

From every viewpoint — save that of your tiny little mind — you’ve decisively lost this argument.
>Dosto's revenge
Nabokov’s revenge: “He is a cheap sensationalist, clumsy and vulgar. He is less a prophet than a puffed up journalist and a slapdash comedian. Nobod takes his reactionary journalism seriously. Crime and Punishment was a ghastly rigmarole.”

sounds pretty cringe that revenge, why does he always expresses himself like a homosexual?

All average Brazilian readers *of literature* know Whitman, Melville, Twain, Salinger, Faulkner, James, Pound and Eliot (though they're not really Americans, are they?), Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Kerouac, Nabokov and so on.

American literature is the best known foreign literature here, by far. Many even know it better than BR lit.

Pound and Eliot were American. Nabokov wasn't.

Their literature isn't. Read it.

They stopped being American after WWI.

Keep flogging that dead horse, faggot.

Literature doesn't have nationality. People do.

Would you assholes please get your stories straight? We’ve gone over this shit dozens of times already.

If you claim Pound and Eliot weren’t American authors, by the same logic Nabokov is an American author. If you claim Nabokov is a Russian author, by the same logic Pound and Eliot were American authors.

Not sure how that contradicts what I said. Pound and Eliot were American. Nabokov was Russian. It's pretty easy and logical if you think about it.

sorry lads, once an American, always an American :^)
Pound, Eliot, Nabokov are all ours

>he was just a whore who sold himself to the highest bidder

hahaha in fact this whole thread reminded me of this scene from MGS2 youtube.com/watch?v=q0DAv34i8fQ&t=212s.

2/10 bait

0/10 bait.

cope

Pound is Italian and Eliot is English. Both also hated America. Nabokov was a wandering Jewish pedophile, a nomadic man who replaced livestock with children, country-less and God-less. Sad that the Bolsheviks didn't get their hands on him before he could write anymore garbage! But Jews are pretty lenient on their own kind so.

his wife was jewish. nabokov was russian, and even descended from royalty.

The only reason you’re interested in Pound and Eliot (neither of whom you’ve read) is because the Jews consider them anti-semitic. Pound did indeed hate the US — he was a faggot fascist wannabe just like you, so no surprise there — but your assertion that Eliot hated the US is pure bullshit. Your opinion of Nabokov is also trash. Now fuck off back to /pol/, cockroach.

He was a crypto-Jew. That's why he married a Jew as well. Look how swarthy he is. And look at his large nose. Does he have a Russian phenotype? Nope! His family had a history of intermarrying with Jews and fighting for Jewish rights. Why? Because they, too, were Jews. His dad was a Jewish-Russian lawyer who denounced the Protocols of Zion several times. Nabokov was known to have a very Jewish accent in Russian. The Jews helped him flee Europe (along with other Jews) to America. He shared the very Jewish fetish for little children. He married a Jew, loved and praised them, portrayed them well in his novels, denounced anti-Semitism, supported the State of Israel. All of this? Why? From a Russian! Hmm.. curious. Only a Jew could love Jews as much as Nabokov did. He was clearly a crypto-Jew, he might not even have known it himself but he was.

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I have a big nose and I'm pretty sure I'm not a Jew. Nice rant, though.

I'm not a fascist. Nothing I said implies any serious interest in either Pound or Eliot (your emotional response has led to many suppositions about me! Control yourself, man!). I've read more of Pound's criticism than his poetry. I'm not a big fan. I've read some of Eliot's poetry and enjoyed it. I didn't know he was anti-semitic. All I said about him was that he was English, which he was. He renounced his American citizenry and his family was always more English than American. It's silly for Americans to claim him. It makes more sense for Americans to claim Pound, even though he was pretty intensely anti-American and even more intensely italophilic. In either case, Americans can only make very weak claims on either of them. Also for Nabokov see . He was a Jew! And Americans can't claim him in any case!

Interesting... that could explain his like and support of niggers. shit I think you might be right, user...

A big nose is neither necessary, not sufficient to be a Jew, but it is curious from a "Slav" with his history and relationship to the Jews.

>Henry James?
>Pynchon?
>Gass?
Do you think their works translate well to other languages?

>American literature is the best known foreign literature here
You're wrong. French literature is way above.

I disagree with both. Mexican literature, and other Latin American countries, are the best known foreign literatures in Brazil.

I don't hate American lit but most of it just does nothing to me. I can spend whole days reading stuff written by yuropoors and latiniggers but can't concentrate on anything American.

american lit is just too... navel-gazing.

Bumping this question.

Don't underestimate the effect of Russian and French literature in Brazil. If you speak to a lot of old timers (50yo+) they're very dominant. French literature and culture has been slowly dying for a while, their big names are being erased little by little from people's memory. Who cares about Maupassant or Balzac when we can read Tolstoy, Dosty, Dickens, Machado?

> French literature and culture has been slowly dying for a while, their big names are being erased little by little from people's memory
I'm seeing this too. It's sad saying goodbye to the French. But it's their fault for colonizing Africa instead of the Americas.

>His first nine novels were written in Russian (1926–38), but he achieved international prominence after he began writing English prose. Nabokov became an American citizen in 1945
still counts

Not to mention Dreiser and Wister, Americans have written some pretty good shit.

American literature is medium-to-mediocre tier literature massively inflated in terms of perceived overall importance by the literati of the Anglosphere due to the cultural capital and pull of the US. Nothing more, nothing less.

Nabokov is the best American writer tho.

I'm getting the feeling that foreign countries are vastly more familiar with American literature than we are. No wonder u guys always complain about it.

If you mean that non-Americans know more about American literature than Americans know about non-American literature, you’re correct. If however you think that non-Americans know more about American literature than do Americans, you’re wrong. You then need to separate reality from posing, user — the same meme authors get thrown around on these threads, over and over, because very few people here are widely read. Yea Forums is like an ornamental pool, impressive from a distance but shallow and barren the closer you examine it.

That's fucking sad, considering he's just a Russian immigrant.

Pound wasn't anti-American. He admired the founding fathers (particularly John Adams) and his radio broadcasts show that he was nostalgic for the way his home country used to be. He just hated what America had become and he blamed Jews and bankers for its decline.

>Americans
No such nation exists on Earth

>But let’s face facts
The facts are that you're quite ignorant about the subject.

American literature and philosophy is criminally underrated. Unfortunately mostly by anglophones.

t. non-anglo yuropeasant

>as it's shoved down everyone's throats because America has cultural hegemony).
What nonsense lol, Melville isn't even required reading outside of America. It's mainly eurobsessives and progressive american professors who hate it

But you can't even begin to understand Melville or James, so how can you judge the literature of the whole country? The few sentences in your post give you away immediately as someone incapable of understanding sound prose.

>Does he have a Russian phenotype?
He was an aristocrat and therefore of mixed ancestry, you clown. German, Russian, etc

Who are some of our best philosophers besides Emerson?

t. ignorant burger

Quine
Searle
Davidson
Putnam
Chomsky

nice bait lmao

peirce and kripke