This thread is for the discussion of texts related to Hermetism, Neoplatonism (in its mystic manifestations), Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Cabala, Angel Magic, Alchemy, Paracelsianism, Boehmeian Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, Illuminism, Swedenborgianism, Mesmerism, as well as the more recent branches of the esoteric tree (Golden Dawn, Traditionalism, Blavatskian Theosophy, e.t.c.).
Recommend books, ask for recommendations, post nice excerpts, ask burning questions, e.t.c.
I read a Hermetic maxim yesterday that got me thinking:
>God is unchanging good, humanity is changing evil.
Why no hindu occultism?
feel free
Does the paranormal count? Currently reading Jason Reza Jorjani’s Prometheus and Atlas. It’s highly interesting
What’s the source of that image?
GNOSTIC GANG REPORTING IN
you might be interested in this based on what i’ve read so far and on his interviews with Thinking Allowed, he’s very gnostic/dualist (but not Cartesian dualism which he is against)
Bump
Athanasius Kircher's Œdipus Ægyptiacus.
Jorjani seems like me if I was more of a troll type. I too am fascinated by both philosophy and esotericism. I too have pondered the mysteries and the PIE people's traditions. I hear he is fascist which upsets me.
1/2
Is there any material that's actually pragmatic or is all this stuff just for LARP purposes?
>fascist
Doesn’t seem like it at all from what I’ve seen and read so far. Very far from it. Normies call anything that is too far out the Overton window “fascism”, it’s a meaningless catch-all phrase.
2/2 (correction: get copenhaver's hermetica instead of one chart)
Crowley, Evola, Spare
I am actually secretly jealous as well because it means I must rethink my ideas now that I took too long to summon them forth from the aether during my extended occult university stay. He's probably younger than me too. Fml...
How old are you? I think Jorjani is in his 40’s or maybe late 30’s. He looks much younger than his age
I am turning 30 and finishing my BA summer 2020.
Good on you, mate. I’m 28 but don’t plan on getting a degree. I work as a security guard so I can dedicate most of my time to independent study, reflection, and writing.
Is God not retroactive continuity?
There is no need for it because the teachings which are normally the province of esoterism in other religions/regions are taught openly and constitute the very core of its orthodoxy as it were. To some extent one could say Tantra but a lot of Tantra is almost the same as the more mainstream Vedantic/Yogic teachings but just with a slightly different emphasis.
How can God be EVERYTHING if he is not also NOTHING? That would mean there is a dualism. How can God not be both truth and lies? That would mean lies are also a God
Anthropology of magic: who is best? Freud? Marx? Nietzsche? Hegel? Kant? Feuerbach? Weber? Durkheim? Eliade? Guenon? Jung? Fraser? Campbell? James? Mauss? Bataille? Kojeve? Levi-Strauss? Levy-Bruhl? Bordieu?
What do I read next?
youve posted the thumbnail by accident
1/2 (attempt two)
Goedel was an occult wizard like Tesla and Turing
Post more details please. Also curious about his other book if you've read it.
>How can God be EVERYTHING if he is not also NOTHING?
Does 'nothing' have any meaningful existence in the first place? I find it hard to wrap my head around the concept
>he doesn’t know about Shunyata
looks good, thanks again
Independent study is good. I've learned as much outside class as inside.
I’m new to him, haven’t read anything else by him. Were you in the thread when I was posting screengrabs or do you want me to post them again? Here are the main theses that he sets out in the intro.
Very true. Though a Guenonian would define esotericism differently. And much western esotericism has orientalist influences.
Wtflmao. Based af. Added to list.
I think I saw the name somewhere here but didn't see any excerpts. Fast board.
Have you heard of Klages? Seems vaguely influenced.
I’ve read some excerpts from Klages. That’s an interesting comparison, there may indeed be some similarity, but Jorjani takes these ideas quite a bit farther I suspect. Also he embraces the coming “Spectral Revolution” which I suspect is something Klages would oppose.
Here’s the page I’m at right now. This is the most interesting book I’ve read in a long time. I still can’t make up my mind whether Jorjani’s ideas are totally diabolical or profoundly revelatory.
oops
Is he an occultist? Do you practice occultism? I quite like The Magickal Revival despite its pseudohistorical "errors". Idk if I would have researched real magic if not for Crowey...
Apparently his other books are World State Emergency and Lovers of Sophia
I don’t practice occultism, but I do find it an interesting subject of study. I prefer the metaphysical/gnosis side of the occult to the practical side. I’m more contemplative, personally, but I have hd paranormal experiences and such. I don’t know whether Jorjani practices the occult. You should check out his interviews with Thinking Allowed, that’s how I got interested in him, and he even dedicates the book to the host, Jeffery Mishlove. I would start with his interview on the Spectral Revolution, then the one on the Trickster/Mercurial archetype, and then the one on Gnosticism. Those cover the ideas in this book more so than the others.
>Red ice radio
>:(
huh? I’m referring to his Thinking Allowed interviews
m.youtube.com
m.youtube.com
m.youtube.com
m.youtube.com
These mainly. If you like Kafka his interview on the Trial will blow your mind
>third baptism
based
Interdasting. I heard a theory that Gurdjieff ripped his Enneagram off from Kircher? Any opinion on this?
/x/ = occultism for people who watch youtube videos at 4am
Yea Forums = occultism for people who read actually books but also watch youtube videos at 4am
I don't really know anything about Gurdjieff but I would imagine anything he produced is quite syncretic. From googling the enneagram it definitely has some resemblance to this image at the front of Arithmologia.
Is there any legitimately good books on Kabbalah. It seems everything is written either by /x/-tier new-age charlatans or Zionist Jewish ideologues like Scholem. I just want something akin to Guenon's work: something able to deal with the metaphysics in a very methodical way without delving into new-age "mysticism"
'occultism' is kind of a subset of western esotericism. people who think of themselves as occultists tend to be more interested in the wee woo levitating esp nonsense than in spiritual practices and knowledge traditions.
There was a Russian professor that said Gurdijeff took the symbol from monks on Mt. Athos. He visited the Holy Mountain multiple times apparently. I don't know much about this theory, but I thought it was interesting enough to say
sounds like wishful thinking
>it was Christianity all along!
eh
Most of the scholarship is in Hebrew. Scholem is essentially 'the guy' who made kabbalah scholarship a thing in the west so anyone you read is probably going to relate their work to his in some way. I can recommend some other authors though, are you interested in actual Jewish Kabbalah specifically or would you like to read about Renaissance Cabala as well?
I've read Sefer Yetzirah, Bahir, and (some) Zohar. These primary texts are really good (ordered from best to least). I'm sure translation hardly does justice however.
I think what you seek is Isaac Luria. I have not read him but such is his reputation. I believe there are some recent translations but you really need to learn Hebrew to really get serious about the subject.
I basically only know the sefirot and the alphabet and some hermetic correspondences. More on the Fortune Crowley Levi Agrippa side myself.
Moreso the Jewish Kabbalah. I just really disliked Scolem's book since the first part was just Jewish historiography which I have literally no interest in.
Are you Jewish or did you just learn Hebrew on your own?
I'm an Anglo-American post-Vatican II Catholic millennial apostate who dabbles in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit, LSD, & occultism.
Kabbalah: A Guide for the Perplexed by Pinchas Giller
The Kabbalah : its Doctrines, Development, and Literature by Christian D. Ginsburg
The Ancient Jewish Mysticism (trans. Shmuel Himmelstein)
perhaps also
Jewish Magic before the Rise of Kabbalah by Yuval Harari
Jewish Mysticism and Kabbalah: New Insights and Scholarship (ed. Frederick Greenspahn)
You could've just said you know Hebrew lol
It seems like some of these are moreso historical studies and not truly dealing with the metaphysics thereof. Am I incorrect?
if that is what you are interested in why not read the primary texts?
y'all niggas need to read john lash
Because I don't have a knowledge of Hebrew or any experience with Judaism.
>john lash
give us the quick rundown
if you have read Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy you can read the Zohar (look up 'Pritzker Edition). Or read them side by side (Genesis corresponds to volume 1-3, Exodus to 4-6, Leviticus to 7-8, Numbers to 8-9, then 10-12 can be read alone).
ITT larp cringe
don't know why I said Leviticus twice
Translations are better than pining away. Read the Bible and then some.
according to him, the pleroma is actually describing the galactic center. aeons are intelligent plasma currents originating there, sophia is actually the nickel core of the planet. earth is a living body, the solar system was originally intended to be a 3-body system: sun, moon, and stars. the stability of the sun is actually explained in the texts, he is allied against the archontes - the other planets. the spiral arms of galaxies are actually the kenoma, it's only our solar system that's fallen
I just remember listening to some Kabbalah uni lecture once where the guy was talking about Tsimtsum or whatever the doctrine is called and how it is derived from Hebbrew grammar in Genesis regards Eloheim being arranged as if it were the object of the sentence instead of the subject. Is this sort of thing common or is it really just what you said. Since in that case I'd probably already be set since I'm sorta familiar with those books.
just like the Bible is the central text in the Christian tradition, the Zohar is the central text in Kabbalah.
Tsimtsum is a part of 'Lurianic Kabbalah' which is derived from oral teachings and I don't know very much about it, but they take the Zohar and Torah as a foundation.
Is anyone aware of some practical aspects of neoplatonism? Any recommendations?
just close ur eyes lol
>tfw anime posting incels are the cultural vanguard of western civilization
bump
If you're still here, what kind of jobs do you get? As in: night shift or day? Do you patrol peopled, or empty spaces?
Any tips for an user looking to spend ample uninterrupted time reading/writing on the job?
I've just read the Kybalion and Emerald Tablets. Where should I go from here?
>what kind of jobs do you get?
It varies. It's a security company, so they will take whoever hires them. So far it's been houses, warehouses, and constructions sites. At the moment I'm doing two different construction sites.
>night shift or day?
I've done night shifts before. At the moment I only do day shifts, since I requested not to do too many night shifts. Before I was doing about two to three night shifts a week. Right now all my shifts are in the 3pm to 11pm range.
>Do you patrol peopled, or empty spaces?
The locations I work at are in the middle of a busy city, so there's lots of people around, but I can easily keep to myself.
>Any tips for an user looking to spend ample uninterrupted time reading/writing on the job?
Don't work for a supermarket or clothing store or anything like that. You will probably have to be alert the whole time watching for trespassers etc. One security company I worked for wanted to put me at a hotel. I went to check it out, and it turns out they practically use the guards as bellboys and you also have to deal with a ton drunks, so I noped the fuck out of there. Basically you want security companies that have you watching construction sites, parking lots, place you can sit around without doing much. It's pretty great, honestly. I'm completely independent, no boss watching my back, no annoying customers to deal with. Besides the pay (minimum wage) it's basically the perfect job. A supervisor comes about once a week to my site on surprise pop ins just to sorta make sure you are actually going to your work, otherwise you are left completely alone. He sees me reading my book all the time and he is completely fine with it. That's just how this work is. You could even screen companies if by telling them that you are a "student" or planning to be one (whether its true or not) and ask if you will have a lot of time to study at your work since that is your main motive for getting this job, they should be totally fine with that. You also have to get a security guard license, by the way. Mine cost me about 180 bucks, so do some searching online to see where you can apply for one locally. Best of luck. Let me know if you have more questions.
>watching for trespassers
meant shoplifters
Doesn't sound too bad. I guess my biggest worry would be cameras, if they saw I'm spending my entire shift reading or writing in my journal, rather than patrolling, I wouldn't last long.
"Nothing" is just a linguistic concept and has no actual existence, by definition. "Lies" are just false beliefs of reality.
Not true at all. I do literally spend the overwhelming majority of time reading. Most sites so far have had a one patrol every hour policy, and the sites are fairly small so that is done pretty quickly. Most of the employees of these companies are old men and new immigrants (my company has a bunch of Pakistanis for example) who basically can't do much else. The bar is pretty low with most companies. They will probably consider you one of their better workers if you are on time and speak good English. That's literally all it takes.
Eternity is simultaneous.
Like Photons or Black Holes.
Is anyone interested in the bhakti strain of mysticism. I'm talking Kabir, Ramananda, and then later on Sikhism, into the modern day variants? Bonus for stuff like Paltu.
Simplicius' Commentary of Epictetus's Enchiridion
True for most, but there are actually a Lot of pracitcing occultists on there and thoss have mostly read more on the subject than anyone in this thread. You would know that if you actually went on there.
The occult is far more than simply esotericism, saying so would be like saying linguistics is only a subset of english study and not a study in its own right. The occult involves by definition not just esotericism. I don't know where you got that idea from, but from my experience most people that are actual occultists, have read a lot on the subject and are practicing what they're reading about, which is a lot better than some armchair occultist talking about occultism, as if they have much more than second hand experiences on these subjects. Go into any magick general thread on /x/ and tell these guys how they believe in this wee woo nonsense you're talking about. I can garantee you, you will clearly see the difference between a armchair occultist and a actual practicing one.
>Paracelsianism, Boehmeian Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry, Illuminism, Swedenborgianism, Mesmerism, as well as the more recent branches of the esoteric tree (Golden Dawn, Traditionalism, Blavatskian Theosophy, e.t.c.).
All garbage.
schizopilled
the corpus
nope
you wish
Thank you.
I've also found myself drawn to the seed of life. Are there any good text on it or surrounding geometry?
>t. sarkic
Porphyry's "Launching-Points to the Realm of Mind" and "On Abstinence from Killing Animals".
esotericism is the name for the whole thing: from hermetic traditions to occultism (a 19th century construction) to 'new age'. The general youre talking about seems to consist of retards trying to 'do spells' which seems very wee woo to me.
>wee woo levitating esp nonsense
That's the interesting part of the occult. Without it, esotericism is just philosophy with a try-hard aesthetic flair and some LARPing thrown in.
ESP is probably real
;
Check out Vico’s New Science and Giordano Bruno for >2mystical4me middle age philosophy
>I hear he is fascist which upsets me.
What does that even mean? You've let the media turn you into a paranoid schizophrenic. Better check under your bed and in your closet for any sneaky evil fascist skeletons or maybe the boogeyman, I mean they are out there man.
>That's the interesting part of the occult
more like the most retarded part made up of proto new age source amnesiacs
whatever lets you sleep at night
Hail! o7
In order to be truthful, one would replace good and evil for order and disorder.
>“Be serious. Also, besides the manuscripts, I have letters that offer revelations on the connections between Joan of Arc and the Sibylline Books, between Lilith the Talmudic demon and the hermaphroditic Great Mother, between the genetic code and the Martian alphabet, between the secret intelligence of plants, cosmology, psychoanalysis, and Marx and Nietzsche in the perspective of a new angelology, between the Golden Number and the Grand Canyon, Kant and occultism, the Eleusian mysteries and jazz, Cagliostro and atomic energy, homosexuality and gno-sis, the golem and the class struggle. In conclusion, a letter promising a work in eight volumes on the Grail and the Sacred Heart.”
- Umberto Eco, "Foucault's Pendulum"
When I was young I spent 7 years dabbling in the occult but it never amounted to anything. I joined a group that practiced ceremonial magic, and tried my hand at several old grimoires.. and looking back it all feels like a big LARP. I never saw any “physical manifestations”, or anything that proved the existence of the preternatural.
Do you anons have any personal occult experiences? If not, what compels you to study and/or practice it?
the two are basically synonymous in hermetic texts
>Without it, esotericism is just philosophy with a try-hard aesthetic flair and some LARPing thrown in.
its more like a collection of important thought systems that broader society pretends dont exist
only with meditation have i really experienced any kind of transcendental states. i think the hard part is being initiated into something legitimate
bump
The big ones have translations
It’s not a LARP if you’re with a decent system, I can promise you that. Old grimoires aren’t what you should be working from and you won’t see any external visual manifestations until you learn to scry. If you’re still interested, stop by osoaa .org (or /omg/ threads on x). It’s pretty new, but we have a magister templi who’s been writing up really awesome lessons from beginner to (hopefully) advanced stuff in the ceremonial magic threads.
The occult can be LARP.
In my opinion, the sad part is these people wanting to manifest psychic superpowers. I think it's possible that these things exist. I have never seen conclusive evidence, although I have had curious experiences regarding these things.
Still, this is the least worthy part of the occult. Sadly, together with esoterica, under the guise of occultism, is also thrown together ESP, woo woos, new age bullshit, UFOs and things of the like.
The worthwhile part is the esoterica. That is, kabbalah, rosicrucianism, astrology, hermeticism, alchemy; bohme, saint-martin, levi, agrippa et cetera. This is where the true meat is. It is here that lies the key to understanding true religion -- whatever outer shape it may take.
I'd say, don't pay attention to anything that appeared after World War II. Maybe, like McKenna put it, "if a book is less than one hundred years old, don't read it". I'd add some 19th century to the shitpile list: Blavatsky and Theosophy, along with Spiritism and Spiritualism, although not completely false, is when people started to abuse the occult and to blatantly start to mix wheat and chaff so things start becoming rather hard to see.
yeah i completely agree, people who say 'occult' instead of esotericism are basically always LARPers who are retarded enough to fall for cults that dont even exist anymore that were basically 19th century scientology. That said, there were some rigorous scholars associated with some of the more bullshitty movements (GRS Mead started out as a blavataskian theosophist but his work is genuinely properly researched and worth reading, basically the first person to write competent secondary literature on esotericism)
Yea, this is correct. The main issues are the new age movement and the relatively recent “lhp” and chaos magic approaches. There are some useful things from around the 80’s. Couple books on Enochian, lots of practical guides, and so on. Mostly academic in nature.
I think the industrial revolution is generally where you have to draw the line in terms of legitimate tradition and legitimate approaches to spirituality.
I think anything later can definitely be analyzed in a useful manner, but it seems to me like it would be necessary to have quite a strong historical understanding FIRST and also a decent grasp of critical theory to really be able to pin down what is happening with New Age, Golden Dawn, Blavatsky, e.t.c. and be able to formulate worthwhile thoughts about them.
Paranormal doesn't belong in /lit./ You want /x/.
>This thread is for the discussion of texts related to [...].
>Yea Forums is for the discussion of literature, specifically books (fiction & non-fiction)
/x/ is a shithole. There is barely anything worthy of attention there. It's mostly urban legends and obese edgelords selling their dignity for astral sex with succubi. The small amount of worthwhile esoterica there is floating upon an ocean of garbage. It's pretty much like how said there.
So you’re like the Fukuyama of occultism? “The history of spirituality ended at the industrial revolution, time to close shop, it’s over folks”. I hope no one actually subscribes to this sad view. Sure there is a lot of nonsense around these days, but there ALWAYS was a bunch of nonsense in the world of occultism. Most of the nonsensical stuff, the snake oil salesmen and frauds of ancient and medieval times didn’t leave anything worthwhile behind so that to us it hardly appears like they existed, but they did exist, just as much back then as now if not more. Don’t be a spiritual pessimist. Don’t look nostalgically to some ideal past. You have to be like Janus, looking forward and backward at the same time. The history of the occult isn’t over ya sad cunts.
>I think anything later can definitely be analyzed in a useful manner, but it seems to me like it would be necessary to have quite a strong historical understanding FIRST and also a decent grasp of critical theory to really be able to pin down what is happening with New Age, Golden Dawn, Blavatsky, e.t.c. and be able to formulate worthwhile thoughts about them.
Frazer is the only anthropologist of magic, lmao, stop reading encyclopedias and be more creative random Yea Forums poster geeze it's not that hard to find people if you don't created a fixed list
GD is a dumpster fire of traditions, but but also a massive step in the right direction. Qabalah, astrology, tarot, and Enochian were merged into a relatively coherent system, albeit sometimes force-fit. An understanding of the historical basis is absolutely critical, because Mathers & co made plenty of mistakes and assumptions, plus it’s good to know why the rituals and practices are the way they are. A lot of trash appeared around that time as well.
I agree with these sentiments. I still don't know whether magic is real or proto-psychlogical nd scientific wankery. The modern spiritual movements and figures, particularly the Golden Dawn, the Kybalion, Crowley, Gurdjeif, Theosophy, Evola, and Schounite Traditionalisim are all speculative. The proselytizing religions and offshoots like ISKCON and most forms of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism should be ruled out. The Renaissance was when esoterism started to go downhill. I think Rene Guenon's methods of discrimination are correct for the most part. The first skill to develop before attempting to dabble in in any esoteric tradition should be discrimination, else you will have no idea what kinds of entities you're inviting into your mind, whether they may be benevolent or demonic.
I agree with the essence of what you said. Like said, the occult is still being produced. I think The Kybalion is an incredibly good book, but it's not perfect. What is being described there is the same thing that is described in Levi's Dogma and Ritual of High Magic, and also in Boehme's three principles. It can be beautifully integrated with the Kabbalah, and can be seen as almost symmetrical to Jung's corpus, but...
But it left the door open for the worst kinds of quantum woo quackery. People like Amid Goswami and all kinds of New Age gurus abused the "vibration" terminology, and dirtied it horrendously.
I think the seven principles stated in it are bang-on, but other commentaries, such as the invalidity of theology and metaphysics, are bullshit. The sensationalism surrounding the work is also questionable. The writer, W. W. Atkinson, was heavily influenced by the new-Thought movement. This clouded his judgment largely, but while that is an error on his part it doesn't undo his merits. The way he described God is perhaps the best way one could ever describe It, for example.
With regards to religion, I think most big religions are valid but one must seek deeply in order to find something worthy, and this is particularly true of Christianity. The Buddhist works, as well as the Islamic and Vedic ones, are good sources of spirituality if you go after the inner metaphysical core.
The issue with Christianity is... that it's dying. Or rather, that it's being hidden, attacked and deformed. It's being swalloed by other movements, transformed into other things, and the symbols are becoming hollow. The Christian God has truly died, even though the Jewish one has not. Christianity is not yet dead, but it's moribund, and this incredibly sad, because it is the most warm-hearted of traditions, and the one with the most symbolically rich central figure -- Christ. And like the central figure was attacked, so is the religion. Catholicism is a shadow, a less than true form. Rosicrucianism is being turned into an empty shell, and Freemasonry has turned into a social club.
Every Christian must, as if own his own, discover and unveil the symbolism of Christ and the Cross by himself. Christianity -- true Christianity -- nowadays involves the task of FINDING the religion, and THEN learning from it. There is no institution out there that helps the seekers find it, not sincerely. There is no good source of Christianity. It has become the individual's task.