everyone knew there place, there was no longing nor was there any suffering, a gamma was as happy as an alpha or any other caste
spoilers:
people who turned out to be 2deep4u were allowed to congregate in an island to meet the most interesting people to ever exist
so what exactly was the problem?
The setting was supported by impossible technology.
so that's it?
You do not have the right to be unhappy and so were deprived of human experience. What is joy without pain?
...joy?
the people in the whipping feast at the end were indulging themselves quite a bit
Where hedonism begins, freedom ends. Read Kant.
who gives a shit about freedom?
or rather, the real question is, why is freedom superior to the alternative?
someone help
plato addresses this in Philebus, he literally settled this two thousand years ago. Unfortunately *nglos are lazy and stupid
same with 1984
It is not really a problem of philosophy but a problem of biology. Some people are predisposed toward valuing freedom, others safety. Natural slaves and natural slave masters. It only becomes a problem when we hold the misguided notion that we should all agree on the same thing and act the same way, that all people should be slaves or that all people should be masters.
so what was it?
1984 is actually a shiity place though
Pleasure is not the Good.
>It is not really a problem of philosophy but a problem of biology. Some people are predisposed toward valuing freedom, others safety.
source?
also you're literally not addressing the topic of my thread at all, regardless of whatever any of us think, why is freedom vlauable whatsoever at all, or at the least, superior to a BNW society?
freedom is always relative and doesn't exist at all
read it. it's short and easy to follow. you should be able to find a used copy for like three bucks. basically the good, what is desirable, is not simply pleasure. the book explains this in more detail
literally nothing, it just scares liberals. China is so awesome because stuff that sounds super horrible on the outside is actually good.
I am not addressing it because I consider your phrasing meaningless. A person's predisposition to value it one way or another is downstream from their biological make up. The reasoning is post-hoc justification for what the body instinctively desires.
so you're just inserting your opinions with no relevance to what I'm trying to discuss? why would you even do that?
actually don't even @ me, I don't care if you don't care
why is the good desirable over a BNW society?
Because it’s the end, total order, no more change, no more creativity
There is more to life than being happy.
I talked about this with the buddies and we concluded that it does seem like a good place.
read it plato literally explains why in the dialogue better than I can. you do read the greeks, right user?
Except I answered you first question, " who gives a shit about freedom?" by telling you who does and does not give a shit about it. And informed you that the second part of you question "why is freedom better than BNW" was flawed, or at the very least an incomplete question, and so meaningless.
so why is change better than a BNW society?
why is that something more more important than being happy?
I guess it’s a debate between those who have want the story of humanity to end and those who want it to continue.
okay then you're free to leave this thread since clearly I'm a brainlet that can't understand you, otehrwise you can tell me why freedom *ought* to take any priority over a BNW society, which you won't because such a question is, as you say, incomplete
leave me alone already
>the story of humanity
You mean war
i'll read it tomorrow
I can see how this desire for change can serve as an argument, but change towards what end and why should that take precedence over a future that leads its citizens out of pain and the threat of anthrax bombs and manages to actually give them happiness?
Freedom is valuable because it can potentially make one happy, and the reason for that is because when people go against our goals it frustrates us, when our goals fail it sadden us, but when our goals succeed we feel satisfied, and when our goals seem closer than ever we feel ecstatic. The usual way we can orient ourselves to our goals in the present time is through freedom, through the liberty to act in certain ways, yet at the same time freedom is just an illusion caused by our identification with our thoughts, such that we can only realize it as an illusion when we contemplate our thoughts from a detached perspective. The more we identify with our thoughts the more we care about certain things, and the more we care about certain things, the greater the value that we attach to those things so that not only are those values so meaningful to us because of how we stand with respect to them, but also because the effort that we have invested in achieving those goals makes those goals so valuable to us, and given that those actions in many cases seem to lead us closer to the goals that we value so much, it makes sense that we would hate it if someone would deprive us from the freedom of pursuing these meaningful goals!
More than anything what is important to notice is that freedom is not intrinsically valuable but rather a concept that can be analyzed and understood in terms of more natural kinds that have a relationship with happiness. Though sure freedom does lead to sensations of empowerment, though I'm not sure such sensations are unanalyzable in terms of smaller sensations: e.g. high self-esteem => happy feelings caused by self-concept + pride => fondness of self-concept + flow => pleasant feelings caused by certain degree of control and the successes and insights associated with it.
>nor was there any suffering
Antinatalists won't tell you this, but suffering isn't bad. It's necessary for a good life.
It's only bad because the elites of that world fell for their own trap. The ideal arrangement would be that every person below Alpha would exist solely to support the Alphas who would in turn live as Aristocrats on steroids, pursuing any life plan they choose with almost total freedom. Instead, they became cogs in their own machine.
They were actually not happy
It was implied the conditions were torture for all but a few people that were mostly used for the orgies
wew, it's as if the book is the bourgeois view of the Christianity before their ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''enlightened revolution''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
What was so bad? The fact that as a dystopia it's so appetizing to you and others today because we're moving towards it.
There was suffering, everyone was just running away from it (aided especially by soma)
vibib
>there was no longing nor was there any suffering
hence no life
Freedom has been made to be valued in the west because without free will the hell scam would breakdown. BNW is a fine set up imo as long as those who do get to deep into thinking beyond soma are dealt with, i.e. isolated or just purged.
Joy without pain is called bliss numb nuts. Silly humanists are stilled spooked.
Mm. This. To us the chosen people think we should be slaves and they masters. Thats problematic imo.
I dont think any organism really believes that though.
Mm. If you've nothing to hide you've nothing to worry about.
Well said.
Wage cucked masochism and slave morality pilled.
It doesn't matter what the elite believes as long as they are good managers who keep order under heaven.
Yet a story was told anyway. When will people get over this idea that you can be alive and not be living? Its so stupid. Your only not living when your fucking dead, you'd think people only believe they're alive when they're slaving.
Ultimately, do you want to serve your beliefs or do you want them serving you?
Free will has been given to us, whether we value it or not. Of course, most of us do not have the ability to do everything, but it is possible to do just about anything.
Sheep and cattlepilled
Joy without pain is boring. Joy without pain makes you weak, makes you dependent on that next burst of joy, which is why everyone in BNW could not deal with reality and needed that soma anytime something bad happened (Lenina).
>You can be alive and not living?
You are not living in the truest sense of the word- you are just surviving. In the case of Brave New World, you are like a cow living it's life. It wakes up, goes to graze, then goes back to it's home. There's no freedom there, there is only a rigid structure that everyone conforms to because they don't know anything else.
If you give a child bootleg Chinese cartoons to watch as he grows up, he'll think they're the best. Until he sees a glimpse of the real cartoons those bootlegs are ripping off.
>biological disposition to freedom or safety
No silence. It bothers Ra to hear its children making so much noise, so it gave a child of the desert sun the tools to upset them. Nobody listened, but nobody listens to the gods anymore because there is no silence. Huxley tapped into it.
> (You)
>Free will has been given to us, whether we value it or not.
Sigh. Dont tell me this is gonna be another christ cuck poster.
>it is possible to do just about anything.
What a psedu. How much self help jewtube do you watch. Better stop for a bit and clean shekelsteins cum out your brain
>Sheep and cattlepilled
"None are more enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free" do you think gothe applied this too himself?
>Joy without pain is boring.
Boring philistine detected.
>Joy without pain makes you weak
Depending on the fluctuations of emotion for validation from life means your too attached to it. The whole spectrum is a tedious bore. I prefer detached shit posting and enjoying the moment.
>>You can be alive and not living?
>You are not living in the truest sense of the word
Fucking sophistry. Really?
>you are just surviving. In the case of Brave New World, you are like a cow living it's life. It wakes up, goes to graze, then goes back to it's home. There's no freedom there, there is only a rigid structure that everyone conforms to because they don't know anything else.
Replace graze with feel then that describes nearly everyone. The truth of Huxley is that because we're so attached to ourselves and our own pleasure we are all made to be unfree. Even those like you who think they go beyond it because they're masochists.
>If you give a child bootleg Chinese cartoons to watch as he grows up, he'll think they're the best. Until he sees a glimpse of the real cartoons those bootlegs are ripping off.
If i understand this correctly, which I'm struggling to do, I'd reply, when do we see these "real" cartoons? All the worlds a stage/ a face of Brahman/ a bubble in the stream so I really think most of what your point is is wrong. Whatever though.
Literally nothing. Intellectuals fail to understand one thing: not everyone can be an intellectual. Brainlets will remain brainlets no matter how hard you push them. That's what Marxists fail to understand. There can be no equality because human being are inherently unequal. Some are bound to be great, others only can and want to watch TV and work their boring jobs. It's better for everyone.
All I got out of Brave New World is that I want to fuck as casually as making small talk.
bump
tl;dr let us rephrase the question you're replying to
why should we take freedom over a BNW style society?
but what if it becomes redundant (aka like it did in BNW)
total unwareness of race mixing
there was no race mixing, all children were made in
in labs
>gene modification to eradicate the boundary
>also eradicated christ
christ erasing kike detacted
why should christianity take precedence over a BNW society?
kot bump
why is it so hard to be happy
Well there's the rub! And I believe it beckons the cortelary. Why is it so easy to be happy? Take some soma, off to byebye land trippin mindcakes for an eternity in the nutshell of a minute.
That's the whole point you idiot. That's why Brave New World is the best dystopia. Dystopias are supposed to be utopias achieved through immoral or unethical means. Brave New World does this without using totalitarianism in a believable way by getting people to be controlled with their pleasures rather than their fears.
"so what exactly was the problem?"
It's unethical. That's all. That's the only real tension created in that story. That's why the main characters are uneasy.
What a gay thread
Not so fast. The fictionalized world that Huxley built is even more intriguing than being able to achieve a dystopia through hedonism. It was the final conclusion of a hypothetical involving a society being utterly consumed by their desires. Mind you, this is more attractive as a dystopia than "1984". So much so that it does make me question, as I did multiple times while reading, if it really WAS a dystopia picture. You've achieved a society that is self-sufficient and caters to the wants and needs of its inhabitants. The roles are created systematically and synthetically, but with no predisposed discrimination. So it ultimately results in the same arbitrary situatuon as our naturally occurring circumstances.
My point is, there are different degrees of a dystopia, which explains why Huxley's seems to be nearly a utopia... The line is drawn by the breech of individuality. Which is ironic, as it was necessary to create a harmonious society.