Why do people critisize capitalism so much (marxists, postmodern neomarxists...

Generally the leftys I know don't want state sponsored or authoritarian socialist governments. They want little to no state a la Chomsky or something like that. So it wouldn't be like China, USSR, or Korea. Additionally, all the eastern countries that went 'socialist' never industrialized before going socialist. Whereas all western countries have been industrialized for over 100 years. 'tis a relevant difference.

Yeah sure.

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>if x is so bad, then why status quo?

IT
*CLAP*
WASN'T
*CLAP*
REAL
*CLAP*
SOCIALISM
*CLAP*

The bigger something is the better
America is the greatest country of all time in every single imaginable way

Because they are ugly malformed Jews and beta goblins who can't compete in pure capitalism. They are angry and envious, they don't care that socialism and communism have been murderous ideology from the start. It's in fact not even really about money, its mostly that aryan blondes and alpha females in general have exactly zero interest in these types of "men".

Read Beowulf.

Wow pictures so cool

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Oh wow look at this ghetto in America. I guess we can safely say capitalism doesn't work.

Seriously, what kind of abject brainlet are you?

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Because capitialism admittely sucks shit, so it feels good to have the "right opinion" and be totally not a utopist

Does it grow economies? Yes
Does it raise quality of life for a lot of people? Yes
Is it efficient? HAHAHAHA NO WAY BRO

>Venezuela

Not recognised as Communist by anyone who knows what private propery is, you're literally lapping up imperialist proganda without knowing it

>North Korea

Literally an authorative persona-cult regime dependent on Chinese support to survive

>BONUS: CHINA

Certainly the most communist state mentioned here - but it's again authoritarian and a police state first, 'communist' second, and it would be wrong to conflate the two just because they can exits together - they can just as much exist separately

and in reality it's closer to centrally controlled captialism that anything else - see all the foreign manufatoring firms that capitalistically produce products for overseas consumption there

>Cuba

Great example, DESPITE the US imposing embaroes &c. and doing it's utmost to cripple Cuba, it still one of the best counties in latin america and also provides more medical aid to developing nations then all the G8 combined (sauce: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism)
Also, stop educating yourself by watching vidya streamers on the internet, literally read a book if you don't want to be an idiot

>efficiency is good because what is good is efficient

a machine gun is very efficient at killing, does that make it morally sound?

Ok let's see how much they earn.

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once again the amerigroid thinks it's all about sex and the inability to attract aryan twitch streamers or whatever the fuck

All those are socialists. They literally call themselves that way.

you have a dilemma here:
(1)Either it was real socialism and communism is possible and not contrary to human nature like silly capitalists say as China, Cuba are fairly successful, or (2) it wasn't real socialism and the leftys are right. but you can keep memeing and ignore important obvious features of the debate!

What the fuck are you talking about if you did not have an efficient economy your living standards would be shit. Morality is a spook.

>self identification is unquestionable

this is your brain on capitalism bros

HAHAHAHHAA, you're so stuffed full of cliches, do you really think you will succeed in capitalism? read some fucking non-fiction you pathetic propaganda ingurgitator

Not real socialism then?

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>capitalism
>efficently

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two words: mixed economy

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>thinks that the quest for a good life begins and ends with material conditions

lmao

Manlet commies right here ^ proving my point.

No, Maduro, Stalin, Jinping and AOC obviously share the same ideology

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Because workers and employees should own and participate in their own management.

Business acumen today is based off of totalitarian management structures for the purposes of efficiency and getting psychopathic control freaks off. We brag about democracy and one man one vote but when it comes to the powers that actually effect our lives on a daily basis we are trapped in the same ruling class structure, guided by HR rule books instead of the law.

People complain about capitalism because it sucks to work in.

LMAO, were the nazis socialist too? I thought they were meant to be facists? Or maybe can words be use to lie? are you really just going to guzzle up Kim's propaganda like that?

I guess you also think North Korea is democratic because the party has Democratic in their name? You also think the Nazis were socialist? Or the Chinese communists? Come on.

>They call themselves socialists so they are

that's not true. China and Cuba are pretty socialist but they're not authoritarian which is just a historical accident. They're not the kind of socialist that many people support.

mundo.sputniknews.com/increible/201709181072433486-presidente-venezuela-urss-parecido/

>Maduro: "Sometimes I look in the mirror and I look like Stalin"

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Get dunked on hahahahaha

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They called themselves National Socialist, yes.

>The survey, which was conducted among 1,067 Cubans in Havana, Santiago de Cuba, Holguín, Camagüey, Pinar del Río, and Cienfuegos in May and June, found that about 27 percent of Cubans earn under $50 per month; 34 percent earn the equivalent of $50 to $100 per month; and 20 percent earn $101 to $200. Twelve percent reported earning $201 to $500 a month; and almost 4 percent said their monthly earnings topped $500, including 1.5 percent who said they earned more than $1,000.

>“Of course these income figures are relatively low in contrast to other nations and the average Cuban still struggles to make ends meet,” Rose noted. But the firm said the income figures should also be taken in the context that “Cubans receive free healthcare and education, as well as minimally subsidized living expenses.”

>authoritarian and a police state first, 'communist' second, and it would be wrong to conflate the two just because they can exits together - they can just as much exist separately

This, there are plenty of examples of authoritarian or personality-cult centred capitalist states, most of which were/are radically anti-communist. Only brainlets like JP believe communism and tyranny are inseparable.

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Socialism works perfectly well in Norway while people in the land of the free die from lack of access to healthcare.

Hitler is my favorite socialist

you don't need to earn money when everything is given for free. subtract the goods you asy for and $300 goes to 30

>maduro admires stalin therefore his way of ruling venezuela must be the same as stalinist ussr

> including 1.5 percent who said they earned more than $1,000.

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All the Nordic countires are Capitalist moron it is just more "human centered"

>no one has real answers

We got off of real money in 1964 for starters.

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so you think that nazi germany and communist China share some important ideological feature??

Man this is low effort b8 even for Yea Forums

Yeah go hide away with your pithless ad hominems baby, at least try to be original if you're going to shy away from providing arguments for your limp-dicked sissy positions

>there are no mega billionaire cubans like in capitalist countries
>this is a bad thing

marxist.com/chavez-trotskyist-president120107.htm

>“What is the problem? I am also a Trotskyist!” - Chavez is sworn in as president of Venezuela

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Cool argument bro

I'm top 1% if I move to cuba?

you know that gold is only value because we value it right? It's the exact same thing as paper money lol.

My position is that You a leftist commie are a limp dicked sissy LOL

>trotsky
>stalin

Thats silver, honey.

>Various retards in here trying to take take claim for mixed economies for their LE POLITICAL SIDE

Radical centrists rise the fuck up

They were and are Socialist, the degree in which they made use of their socialist ideology is another story.

you realize trotsky and stalin had very different ideologies right

holy shit these arguments are garbo

>muh cult of comfort

yawn, and a stirnerite too.

>literally incapable of thinking outside of the dichotomies his masters have conditioned him to think in

the goodest slave

No. If you moved to Cuba you would presumably be working in Cuba. Earnings are not the same as wealth.

>they are not socialists

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Unironic centrist here who advocates for a mixed economy

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why do capitalists act like capitalism is the only economic system that has ever, could ever, and will ever exist?
and why do capitalists respond to any and all critiques of capitalism with "nuh uh"

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>I'm fine with 30$ bro, my healthcare is free!

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Based.

Healthcare, education, housing, utilities, etc.

there's nothing inherently valuable about gold. Nowadays maybe its use for conducting electricity and dental work gives it some pragmatic value, but that's not why we were using it as a reserve. We used it because a lot of people think of it as valuable. Which is also the case with american dollars. It's the exact same thing

Remember when leftists were saying that Chavez was the revolutionary that would show the world that socialism would work? Heh

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>calling out Jews for being ugly fucking envious angry commies is exactly what "they" want

What? Fuck off retard, if I was in the eu I'd be in prison by now.

see

It's really funny for me actually, because it's clear you haven't an original idea in your head at all, and you can only parrot my insults back at me. I pity you, truly

I'm sorry could you repeat that I couldn't hear you from my vacation home.

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You're a moron. I never said anything about Gold.

lol if you think the nazis were socialist then you must just be retarded. What was the important ideological feature that the nazis and China share? (don't say socialism I'm looking for specifics)

I don't need pity from beta faggots, I wish you would kill yourself and save me the trouble.

Wow! Nice give me those

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Cubans are not "fine" with their 30$ (27% of cubans earn less than 50$). They are constantly developing and improving. It's not their fault that the US has been trying to destroy them since their inception.

>Typical wages range from 400 non-convertible Cuban pesos a month, for a factory worker, to 700 per month for a doctor, or a range of around 17–30 US dollars per month. However, the Human Development Index of Cuba still ranks much higher than the vast majority of Latin American nations.[78] After Cuba lost Soviet subsidies in 1991, malnutrition resulted in an outbreak of diseases.[79] Despite this, the poverty level reported by the government is one of the lowest in the developing world, ranking 6th out of 108 countries, 4th in Latin America and 48th among all countries.[80] Pensions are among the smallest in the Americas at $9.50/month. In 2009, Raúl Castro increased minimum pensions by 2 dollars, which he said was to recompense for those who have "dedicated a great part of their lives to working... and who remain firm in defense of socialism".[81]

Cuba has a horrible medical system,public health had always been awful, people prefer not to go to the doctor when they have "normal syntoms" cuz of how long it takes to make a visit. great educational system (free uni for every student that could achieve a decent university admission test score) but everything else is really mediocre, health related carrers are mostly taking by really vocational people, but still, you have to bring some bread to the table, a lot of doctors in Cuba have one or two more jobs, which don't help the total responsibility of a full time doctor.

T. I studied medicine in Cuba for free and now I'm in another country
Pd:check your information a little more before saying it's true

then what was your point? That silver is also only valuable because people think so? Or that Gold isn't that way? I just assumed you were the op about gold

I don't think anyone said they weren't socialists, analyzing the situation of every "socialist" country as if they all follow one line of thinking is retarded though, so is putting Venezuela and Stalin under the same category like OP did as if they can be considered similar.

>Cuba has a horrible medical system,public health had always been awful
Then why does Cuba have a longer life-span than the US.

>Chavez

Literally wanted to do Blairist Third Way-ism: 'I even believed in a third way; I thought it was possible to put a human face on capitalism. But I was wrong.'

If you don't know what this is educate yourself before posting

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they have radically different ideas of how things should work which is why one of them was assassinated by the other lol

They surely are richer than their south american neighbors

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literally can't stop thinking in fucking memes lmao

I just want a system where I don't have to work and still live comfy. Is that too much to ask?

If Venezuela or Cuba are socialist then Norway is even more so.

Trotskyists are hardcore advocates for social-democracy

Central authoritarian power.

I said we got off real money in 1964, when we dropped silver, and posted a picture of some of the last silver money, although both silver and gold have clear intrinsic values.

Do I really have to explain why Gold and Silver are more intrinsically valuable than paper? I don't think so, if you are that damaged to beleive something so ridiculous I suggest you do a bit of your own research, start with who is buying most of the gold today, in 2019.

>Trotskyists are hardcore advocates for social-democracy

So socialism, since Chavez praised him so much.

youtube.com/watch?v=AsHm6ZkFAak

I really wish the Anti-Work movement got some more momentum again.

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forbes.com/sites/keithflamer/2016/11/26/10-surprises-about-castros-extravagant-life/#7c06aaac6d76

Well at least the leader was a billionaire

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yeah this has nothing to due with socialism. Which just proves my point. A lot of socialists are anarchists. Unless this is a literal contradiction, then central authoritarian power is a different question and has nothing to do with socialism. Look at the CNT during the Spanish civil war

No real Anarchist is a Socialist.

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>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba#Present
As of 2005, Cuba became the world leader in the ratio of doctors to population with 67 doctors per 10,000 population as compared with 43 in the Russian Federation and 24 in the United States.[45]

Cool dude. Maybe non-essential treatments aren't prioritised just because some people have more capital than others, and people aren't in $30,000 debt from breaking a leg, like it is in the imperalist state?

where's the instrinsic value? You realize that intrinsic means that if we stopped valuing it, we would be incorrect? That's clearly not the case. Gold and silver are only valuable because we think so. It has nothing to do with properties inherent to the metals lmao. I don't give a fuck who's buying gold today; I'm fully aware people consider it valuable.

>I don't think anyone said they weren't socialists

Few, few leftist would call Venezuela socialist. It perhaps aspires to be so, but it isn't. To claim it is is a US news anchor line and nothing more

reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-chavez/venezuelas-chavez-heads-to-cuba-for-medical-treatment-idUSBRE8AQ0Z420121127

>Venezuela's Chavez heads to Cuba for medical treatment
>dies

At least he died being treated by his fellow comrades

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No, social-democracy is a set of policies that apply to capitalist states, which is a kind of state that Chavez ran.

Cool, like the nazis and saudi, real socialist yeah sure bro

Are you an idiot?

How about for starters we couldn't even have this argument without Silver since it is used in literally every device?
Since it is the single most conductive metal in existence (both for heat and electricity) I would say it has value.

Or how about you put a 100$ bill in a drawer for 20 years and I'll buy 100$ in silver (5-6 Ounces) and we'll see who wins in 20 years.

you're intentionally missing the point. socialists are split on the question of how much power a government can have. Some think a lot others think none.

But you said that what the nazis share in common with China is the authoritarianism. But that's not socialism. That's authoritarianism, which is a totally different question.

Even according to your own retarded reasoning the CNT have to be socialists because they called themselves socialists so get fucked

Well he's a lier then because he declared himself Marxist among many other things

youtube.com/watch?v=fqV1BpDxy6c

Wow, one case, nice evidence dude

have you ever heard of an anecdote?

congrats on puzzling that one out, sherlock

yeah you're just proving my point. I'm not questioning if silver has value. Maybe it's a superior economic investment. I don't give a fuck that's not what I'm talking about. Even you say that Silver's value is tied to something: its usefulness. That means it's not inherently valuable. Consider this conditional: if it wasn't useful, then it wouldn't be valuable.

If that's true, then it isn't inherently valuable; it's only valuable if we think it is. Pretty obvious this is the case desu

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Intellectuals resent capitalist economies because it gives money, and therefore power, to people they think are undeserving of it, be it because they just inherited, or because they are actually pretty dumb but technically smart or charismatic.

Not that communist economies would be different. There is nothing stopping the same grifter who rises to the top in modern companies from rising to the top at worker's councils. But in the fantasies of intellectuals, non-capitalist economies would be managed by a council of smart experts who, by sheer coincidence, includes the critical intellectual himself.

How convenient that people believe things that gives them (or they think will give them) power and prestige.

CNT are nothing but morons who splitted from Bakunin's ideas, so you mean nothing to me.

Also

>no real socialism

lel

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Remove yourself from this thread if you are really this dumb.

Thanks bro

>Yea Forums is for the discussion of literature, specifically books
you are gay

yeah we all agree he's a liar lmao

I declare myself a pope.

>There is nothing stopping the same grifter who rises to the top in modern companies from rising to the top at worker's councils.
He can rise wherever he wants. There's no private accumulation of wealth in communism.

>>>/re/ddit is that way

I'm almost there master

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No one in Cuba lives better than were you currently live so.

i'm not saying china isn't socialist. I'm saying that being authoritarian doesn't make you socialist. Otherwise, Saudi Arabia is socialist. But they aren't.

you're literally the one saying
>no real socialists
because of the CNT

earlier you said that Venezuela is socialist because they called themselves socialist. The CNT called themselves socialist, so therefore (according to you) they must socialist.

Why Socialists lie so much?

The point is when we were on real money it lead to a cycle of savings and investment, which was good for the middle class.

You cannot save with paper money, its value Always goes to zero over time.

This is why the middle class has been gutted, there I brought it all the way back to the original image you posted.

I said centralized authority which all socialists states have become, don't put shit in my mouth.

>he keeps talking about CNT

Cringe, read a book of Bakunin first.

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>There's no private accumulation of wealth in communism.

Bullshit. The charismatic grifter who becomes chairman of the worker's councils has power and control over the allocation of resources, therefore is "wealthy", even if this is not reflected in the legal constitution of the system.

i haven't posted any images, that was someone else.

Also regarding the paper money thing: you might be right but you definitely don't have sufficient evidence for your claim. US dollars haven't gone to zero since we've gone off a metal reserve. Inflation is inevitable but metals are subject to changing value too.

That being said i'm not an economist so you're prolly right idk

Saudi Arabia, the Socialist dream!

Who was the best debate with destiny? Distributist or something like that?

Uh sweetie, every single socialist state has turned that way.

Giving authority for either a king or government is slavery.

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Because there’s more variation in the outcomes of capitalist countries than communist ones.

US dollars haven't gone to zero and won't because despite being a complete central bank scam, it's still more attractive to investors than any other economy in the world, by far.

Doesn't change the fact that you would do exponentially better saving in gold or silver for long periods since they follow and beat inflation by an average of 10% per year.

ASS

He's not a socialist. People who pretend to be socialists, I don't know, maybe it's because their entire life is already based on a lie (about them being socialists) that they just lie about other stuff too.

So he can't freely consume these resources, and he can be recalled at any time. You're stretching the definition of possessing wealth to a retarded level never before seen.

Wealth is power and control over the allocation of resources. Money is merely one form of it, certainly more independent than others, but people who are able to acquire it under capitalist conditions wouldn't have difficulty to become powerful under communism.

I'm sorry, but your dream of being the omnipotent planner and crushing Chad under your feet is just that, a dream. Under communism Chad would still find a way to have power over you.

>boom/bust cycle
>falling rate of profit
>unsustainable climate change
>may bring people out of poverty in absolute terms but relatively the gap between rich and poor is widening
>still working widely inefficient hours because it's custom and captalists have to squeeze as much profit as possible
>focus on industries that are a waste of time/exploitative - marketing, PR ect
>massive wastage/overproduction (the amount supermarkets throw out in food everyday is ridiculous for just one example)
>planned obsolescence
>permanent unemployment for a section of the population by design

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consumerism leads to hedonism therefore producing despicable people yet

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Communism is tyranny by definition because it entails that each person owes their existence and the fruits of all their labours to the "collective" ie the state.

Mortgage you mean?

The power and control over the allocation of resources under communism belongs to society. Being a member of some committee that in a specific point in time happens to directly deal with logistics of some subset of this allocation would make you no more of an exclusive owner of these resources than a shift manager at McDonalds is an owner of all the french fries in the freezer. Also, nice projection in that second paragraph.

An average person is already completely dependent on labour of others, whether it be dead labor or live labour. It was capitalism that made it so, when it expropriated the self-sustaining individual producers.
It's only tyranny when whatever you're dependent on has an interest opposite from your own. In socialism such conflict of interest is eliminated with elimination of classes.

>every single socialist state has turned that way.

>Socialist states

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>starvation vs obesity

>one is a choice , one is a lack of food

damn yup totally the same

bro , BRO , get those facts out of my socialist safe space wtf

they dont get the "full benefits" because their jobs are easier you autist. typing on a computer in an air conditioned office may produce more wealth than working for 13 hours in a steel factory but its also easier to get people to do it because , its an easier job.

..........
O dear Lord almighty in heaven holy shit you socialists are retarded. "BROOO *types on computer* like gold , silver and copper *checks phone* are like social constructs bro *drinks clean water* like we only value them because like society values them bro *starts car*. Seriously , go die

"Im sorry but if my communist country cant engage in voluntary trade with your capitalist country, youre like, literally oppressing me, and like, its your fault communism wouldnt work cuz like we are like omg morally right and like entitled to access to the economic market we like call exploitative but like omg not letting us trade is like literally omg i cant even"

save it comrade fuckface.

floridian who friends in cuba, can confirm

the leader always is. Every critique of capitalism being non meritocratic is echoed 10 fold in every attempted socialist nation.

left wing libertarians get eaten alive by left wing authoritarians every time they pop up. Unlike right-libertarianism , we have no instance of left libertarianism even existing for more than a decade.

correct

and yet former soviet states with the exception of poland are degenerate as well........

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Capitalism was the best choice for a while, but now there are better options. Socialism HAS worked, just because the overall experiment failed doesn't mean they haven't achieved anything. Marxism is a dynamic ideology, not a static one.

>and yet former soviet states with the exception of poland are degenerate as well........
blame pervasive burger consumerism, fucking gas all burgers
also you're turbo brainlet

>The power and control over the allocation of resources under communism belongs to society.

That's what liberals and conservatives say about capitalism too. I'm sure reactionaries would say something similar about feudalism.

>east europeans being degenerate is like americas fault omgggggg

>ur a brainlet even tho I didnt refute a single sentence of what you said

with all due respect, no u, user

>america isn't influential at all! especially not to repressed young cultures under soviet censorship suddenly breaking free
you didn't say anything anything of substance to be worth "refuting", so I didn't

This

they broke free because they wanted burgers. This might surprise you in the year 2019 but people want to be degenerate consumers. They were inducted into the shit religion of communism by force, and will gladly give up their righteous morals to pad a belly with burger

has destiny literally ever lost a debate?

They didn't, that's the problem. They wanted to be like burgers because from their point of view burgers looked successful

Yeah couple of times, there was one guy called "ape" something that destroyed him

Read Robert Michels. Management is specialized work and there is no way workers can participate on it. At the most, you can pretend they do, organizing periodical assemblies where most workers go to nod their heads to what has been previously decided by specialists and give the whole thing the appearance of "workplace democracy".

Also, I do agree that working in capitalism sucks, because working sucks. But at least I'm not required to meet Stakhanovite standards of production like workers in socialism.

Has he ever satisfied a woman?

youtube.com/watch?v=0f6edvENTN4

only half-way, only with a tongue

That's bullshit. In Germany they even put pleb workers in as head officers in the company to make sure they have power over head corporate decisions.

Appearances. The actual decisions are done by specialists.

I agree that management is a skill set. Convincing people to do things can be difficult and requires training to an extent. The problem arises when the position of managing takes with it the actual power derived from the social power of the role. A manager should be compensated for his ability to keep track of projects or production or workers on the line, but he should not be paid more for that position, or be entitled to authority over workers without some form of reconciliation. A manager should be an equal in the distribution of wealth and power, not sitting from the CEO tower shouting orders with the threat of being fired for any little miscalculation of the market.

Not even socialist parties keep that standards, they compensate, with money and prestige, their technical administrative staff more than their rank-and-file.

Fuck that noise. I get that technical expertise should be paid marginally more, but not by the absurd amounts some do. I know lawyers making seven figures who's assistants do more work then they do. Programmers that outsource most of their work. Its such horseshit. The idea of the god-like worker being justly compensated for their insanely specific skill set is a myth.

>Distributist
Was that the guy Vaush killed?