Leftists/Marxists are people who formed their political views and understanding of the world during adolescence, and then never questioned their beliefs. Not because they were right about everything from the start, but because truly questioning what you believe is hard work, and leftists don't work. Myself, and many others, started out as leftists, and therefore have a good understanding of it. However, as we grew older, we encountered different ideas that weren't as simple minded and naive as leftism, and changed our views accordingly.
To sum it up, lots of people started out as leftists and then changed their views. No one started out as something else and then became a leftist. Therefore every leftist on Yea Forums are either adolescents, or creatures of habit afraid or incapable of questioning their own beliefs. None of which are capable of intellectual discussion. Sage all leftist threads, don't engage with them.
>No one started out as something else and then became a leftist. I actually did. When I was a teenager I believed that things like taxation were a "necessary evil" but ultimately took the position of a libertarian right-winger.
Today, I wouldn't consider myself some sort of militant leftist, but I definitely open to discussing marxist ideas like cooperatives replacing standard corporations and things like that without rolling my eyes. I also believe certain things ought not be left under the purview of private capitalism, like medical care and prisons, which should be strictly operated under state capitalism.
Jacob Roberts
fuck off lel
>[...] we encountered different ideas that weren't as simple minded and naive as leftism, and changed our views accordingly [...]
> Sage all leftist threads, don't engage with them.
Amazing display of cognitive dissonance. I have never seen an argument bearing more resemblance to a wet fart than this one, OP
Hudson Hill
I'd wager that anyone who identifies as some political ideology or paradigm has stopped questioning their beliefs. That's as far as I got in your post before I became disinterested
Jonathan Russell
Politics are gay. Embrace futility in the face of utter destruction.
Camden Flores
Great argument. Also >cognativ disnance Buzzword for smart educated POC
You shouldn't use terms like "leftist" so casually, because they're poorly defined and you just end up arguing past one another. There are roughly 3 categories of people who you can call leftists: 1. The actual leftist in the original sense, from the French Revolution: basically nationalists, who were opposed to monarchy and wanted to give power to the people. 2. The people who currently think of themselves as leftist and who vote for "leftist" parties in the West: basically pawns of neo-liberal capitalism (same as people who vote for "right wing" parties). This is especially true in countries like the US and UK, which don't really have much variety and are all (both) taken over by neo-liberals. In continental Europe you can still find some proper leftist parties, but they usually don't have power. The closest you can get to genuine leftism is ironically extreme right wing populism and nationalism. 3. The naive childish kind, who see brown people as wounded pets they need to take care of. The fact that these people (they're mostly women) have voting power is a flaw of liberal democracies, but it's not fatal. It just needs a strong counter force, which is currently lacking.
Benjamin Sullivan
Why have you chosen to practice the dogmatic ritual of covering your ears when you hear the word "politics"?
Nathaniel Fisher
lol go back /pol/ Nice b8
William Torres
what's the leftist answer to the trap of modernity? it seems like most leftists just assume that by autistically going through modernity and breaking down institutions you magically get out of it at some point
Luke Lopez
The world is not that simple. Dismissing half of the political spectrum is inherently idiotic, left or right.
Also, good job not addressing any legitimate issues whatsoever. You're confusing identity with politics and it's probably the reason you dislike the things you do.
Nicholas Murphy
left-right is the political spectrum only if you are already left wing
Dylan Jenkins
>It just needs a strong counter force, which is currently lacking Democracy is insatiable. The only strong counter force is death by Caesar.
Jaxson Thomas
>ultimately took the position of a libertarian right-winger What a shame you went braindead
Oliver Young
No I meant that's what I thought when I was a teenager. I don't believe that now. Sorry for misusing the word "ultimately".
Adrian Thompson
I'm a leftist, so I: - oppose immigration, which mostly serves for capitalist exploitation and destroys the demographic homogeneity - support nationalism, which is the best/most practical tool we have to promote and maintain solidarity - support traditional values, which give us some moral guidance and protect us from consumerist nihilism
Lucas Cook
daily reminder that fascism is just pragmatic communism
Lucas Thompson
Communism is just state capitalism. Stalin was not a Marxist. He and Hitler shared more in common than him and Marx. Mind the difference between communism and socialism as prescribed by Marx.
Nathan Rodriguez
Marx didn't prescribe anything beyond meme words
Jackson Green
Basically true. It helps to remember that women skew left and women are halfway between men and children.
Elijah Rodriguez
>It is well known that Sorellian syndicalism, out of which the thought and the political method of Fascism emerged—conceived itself the genuine interpretation of Marxist communism. The dynamic conception of history, in which force as violence functions as an essential, is of unquestioned Marxist origin. Those notions flowed into other currents of contemporary thought, that have themselves, via alternative routes, arrived at a vindication of that form of State—implacable, but absolutely rational—that finds historic necessity in the very spiritual dynamism through which it realizes itself.
>Fascism combats the abstract class conception of society, rejecting the entire notion of antithetical class interests upon which the artificialities of “class struggle” rests. The concept has already been largely abandoned by theorists. Marxism succumbed to that criticism as quickly as it previously had been elevated by theorists. To the theoretical criticism, practical failure has been added with the advent of the Great War. In the circumstances of the Great War, individual societies were compelled to abandon all ideologies—in order to adapt themselves to reality. They were forced to do so by the internal and irresistible logic of their own organic nature. [The very needs of the war] testified to the solidarity and intimate unity, both moral and economic, of the constitutive classes of the social and State organism.
-"What is Fascism?", Giovanni Gentile
Matthew Phillips
nah mate I was a libtard/libertarian until my early 20s, then i realized the commies were right all along. Helps if you're not american, the brainwashing is still there but it's not as pronounced
Angel Thompson
read Marx you imbecile
Caleb Ramirez
I grew up in a conservative family who voted for Bush & supported the war, questioned it in my teens, explored leftism, but am currently convinced Tolstoylian anarchy is the peak political philosophy. Anyway, nice premise OP but it's empirically false.
Charles Young
Shut the fuck up, Americans. All fucking burgers must fucking hang.
Oh my god shut the fuck up, nobody believes you or cares
Owen Gray
The only reason I was a marxist was because subconsiously I believed marxism to be the best vehicle for my values, values I now realise are actually culturally and ethnically specific western values which are being threatened by the alliance of the left and the international capitalists. I'm no longer a leftist, I am a populist and an american patriot, I believe in upholding what's best in american culture and the western tradition,i think leftists call it strategic essentialism.
Jace Anderson
MEME WORDS retard, Marx prescribed nothing or the "not real communism"(tm) defense meme wouldn't work without that technical detail
Gabriel Ward
all these retarded intellectuals debating on whether they lean left or right on an arbitrary political spectrum while china is advancing with their state governed unified chink hivemind
Wyatt Harris
>state governed unified chink hivemind
you mean virtuous confucian order
Dominic Kelly
I live in a big European city and all the people affiliated with left wing parties have arabic sounding names. The socialist Turks even campaigned for Erdogan. I saw that there was a communist protest in another city and half the people were black. I don't understand what goes on between socialism and immigration, I just doesn't make sense.
Robert Price
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Luis Peterson
that's the most cringe opinion of them all
Oliver Rivera
what you're seeing is socialist revolutionary imagery being appropiated by social democrats and cultural liberals
Jaxon Powell
>"Communism" is just state capitalism. FTFY
>Stalin was not a Marxist. No, Marx was not a Marxist.
>Mind the difference between communism and socialism as prescribed by Marx. It was non-existent. For Marx communism is socialism is republic of labour is society of free and associated producers is cooperative society is union of free individuals.
Easton Gomez
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Landon Smith
Being a leftist is being a chad. It means you don't need to master, but are chill enough to be master over none.
Being a reactionary is being a cuck. You either happily let capitalists exploit you, or are so insecure and unless that you need to exploit other people to participate in society (and probs have a small dick, scales, or both).
>The socialist Turks even campaigned for Erdogan. This is because most immigrants in the west are religious conservative ethnonationalists who only side with the liberal left out of convenience. I think the right is going to have to look into ethno-pluralism and anticapitalism, the main reason why the globalists are winning is because they know how to form broad coalitions, from multinational corporations, to sjw managers and bureaucrats, to conservative immigrants. Many of us in the right, particularly in America come from a liberal-libertarian background and there is a lot of it that needs to be purged, I'd say read Heidegger, Guenon, Evola and Calasso establish a dialog with muslim and hindu conservatives, with chinese confucians and with the few marxists that arent yet completely cucked.
Ian Fisher
My group: handsome, intelligent, strong Their group: ugly, dumb, weak
The leftist take is that all the things you don't like about modernity are products of capitalism: alienation, cultural stagnation, promotion of self obsession, absence or perversion of morality, ect. All these exist as a result of exploitation of those not in the 1%.
David Miller
>I don't understand what goes on between socialism and immigration Gee I wonder... >import underclass of Anatolian peasants to work industrial labour in factories and mines >Confused how this group might end up supporting labour parties evolved from socialist politics
It's also not like Erdogan is some egregious character. He throws out some red-meat rhetoric about Europe for politics, but he's entirely transactional in his politics with the West and counter to Islamic extremism and liberal debauchery.
Aaron Nguyen
Leftists rarely even understand what capitalism even is as evidenced by the widespread retardation like complaining about "neoliberalism" or praising "market socialism".
Christopher Miller
>the liberal left No such thing here. The immigrants vote socialist, but the socialists should be against immigration if they were coherent.
Leo Miller
>The immigrants vote socialist, but the socialists should be against immigration if they were coherent. Are the old Turkish immigrants in support of this wave of immigration? I see no evidence of that; Turkish communities in Germany for example have done basically nothing for Syrian refugees, and the two communities don't get along because they don't share a language or culture (the Turks are more conservative and insular). Syrian refugees are more likely to integrate into German society than they are Turkish-German society.
David Gutierrez
Anyone who affirms “humanity” as a concept and makes it central to their politics has just swallowed the dogma of the status quo whether they’re on the left or right.
Hudson Cook
No, you're not a leftist you're just a totalitarian Statist e.g. Rousseau/Carl Schmitt notion of a homogeneous mass and you should really be also opposed to emigration. Enforcing an imaginary will on everyone is reactionary.
You can be to the "left" and "liberal", the idea the "right" can defend liberty is highly questionable since they have no way of supporting freedom of communication/movement/etc. There's no reason socialists should oppose immigration ipso facto and there's every reason to support a universal right to free movement, the problem is practical socialists don't plan on abolishing wage labour and are really welfare state-capitalists.
Liam Lee
Without a "homogeneous mass" you can't have leftism in practice, sorry. It's just a matter of how you define homogeneity and how you enforce it.
Mason Ramirez
>No it's not, communism abolishes the state and political leadership. This is viewing ideology through its symptoms and not its theory. The roots of fascism come from Marxism and syndicalism. Orthodox Marxism enters a crisis in late nineteenth/early twentieth centuries because the intransigence of capital amid nebulous proletarian revolt suggested the historical science underpinning the theory of how communism develops appeared flawed. From the theoretical flaws, you have the movement splinter either on practice (socdems vs revolutionary marxism) or by infusing it with nationalism in order to mobilize revolutionary change (fascism). Although it's also a delusional ideology, fascism quite literally developed out of trying to solve problems from the original idealism of communism.
Seriously, you fucks don't know any of the history of the movements you claim to adhere to.
Michael Morales
The issue comes down to maintaining fictitious political entities [immutable nations and values] over the heads of actual people. The issue isn't the degree of consensus on self-segregation but the possibility for peaceful change which isn't possible without some form of global federation.
>The roots of fascism come from Marxism and syndicalism Yes but only insofar as it was a reaction.
>Orthodox Marxism enters a crisis in late nineteenth/early twentieth centuries because the intransigence of capital amid nebulous proletarian revolt suggested the historical science underpinning the theory of how communism develops appeared flawed. Yes it appeared capitalism was developing smoothly and no fundamental crises was to be expected which legitimized Bernsteinian reformism, until it actually occurred and the cyclical nature of capitalism was affirmed.
>From the theoretical flaws, you have the movement splinter either on practice (socdems vs revolutionary marxism) or by infusing it with nationalism in order to mobilize revolutionary change (fascism). There was no flaw only the appearance of one.
Jackson Perry
t. underage(#woke) /pol/tard
Carter Lewis
Fascism is bourgeoisies last stand. Ever wondered why it always emerges when capitalism is in crisis and why it's always propped up by the bourgeoisie?
Elijah Gonzalez
most of the women are liberal, my Amerilard friend
Caleb Cox
>Yes but only insofar as it was a reaction. No it was not. This is literally wrong. Fascism develops directly from Sorel's syndicalism and Marxism. It is a "reaction" no more than social democracy is a reaction.
>There was no flaw only the appearance of one. The only extant revolutionary regimes based on Marxism are an isolated island (Cuba), and a sprawling post-modern syncretic state derived from an agrarian society (China). I suppose we could chuck DPRK in there, although Juche never made any sense. If *any* of the nineteenth century Marxists were around now to see how history evolved and how temporary socialist revolutions were, they would also agree that their project was flawed.
Nathan King
>why it always emerges You say that as if it has emerged at least 20 times already.
Kayden Ross
>Ever wondered why it always emerges when capitalism is in crisis and why it's always propped up by the bourgeoisie? Because at that point the threat from communism towards society has become so great that it has to be ended at all cost. Fascism never was the last stand of the Bourgeoisie, it was the last stand of decency and normalcy, for everyone, no matter how rich or poor he is, everyone is threatened by communism equally.
Jeremiah Kelly
>Marxists exist
Angel Williams
>lots of people started out as leftists and then changed their views. No one started out as something else and then became a leftist. I went from Austrian School libertarianism as a teenager to social democracy as an event intermediate step when I realized what a comically evil philosophy libertarianism is to Bolshevism once I actually read Marx and Lenin so I guess I disprove your entire thesis. You need to read more Marx. All of this is revisionism, Marx clearly explains that communism is a state of conditions which cannot be immediately established due to the enormous changes required in society at large, and that once the proletariat seized power they will need to reshape society through socialism to reach communism. The main problem with immigration is that most of it is illegal rather than legal. Yes a flood of legal immigrants could depress wages, but it would be way less than the current flood of illegal ones who can be paid scraps under the table and severely undercut wages. The solution to this problem is not a harsher anti-immigrant policy but to treat the problem at the source, aiding those countries from which the immigrants are coming. In the US this simply means helping those who have either been ruined by our imperialist meddling during the Cold War or those who have suffered because of our country’s massive drug habit. The people coming here would much rather stay home if that were a realistic option.
Asher Hill
Those are retarded liberals than can hardly be considered representative of leftism You shouldn't criticize fascism by making fun of fat Q boomers either (people do, but still)
Brandon Perry
>Oops a recession, may need to eat ramen for a little bit. Hey China hows it go-they're eating each other again. Command/planned economics are the most susceptible to disaster due to having all of your eggs in one basket, and rulers being human and not always being philosopher kings with perfect forsight. When they work, they work pretty well. When they hit a snag, they hit it hard and crash and burn as a result.
Tyler Bennett
I fucking hate that I know virtually nobody on the left speaking out against the immigration crisis. Flooding immigrants into the country, legal or illegal, hurts workers here and ensures the countries they're all coming from will continue to stagnate and die. There seems to be some nonsensical perception that taking every single poor brown third worlder in like billions of wounded birds will miraculously grant them all wealth and happiness, I guess because on an individual level it can. I'm disappointed that they can't think further ahead. At this point I'm convinced China is some kind of unified organism that just has to occasionally go through a molting process that involves killing a third of its population in horrifying ways.
Joseph King
>Leftists/Marxists are people who formed their political views and understanding of the world during adolescence, and then never questioned their beliefs. I've found this is true with atheists too. I believe it is natural, specially these days, for kids to question religion, and I think it is also natural for the person to not find a good answer, and therefore they turn to atheism, however they stop questioning it because they honestly believe, as they left religion to atheism, they are now at the truth and no thinking is necessary.
why is it that dumbass liberals and conservatives continue to make these posts when it's so clear that leftism BLOWS THE FUCK OUT any other political ideology when it comes to theory and thought? It's honestly mind boggling. Besides, you don't even need theory to see how bad capitalism is, be it the wanton destruction of the environment, the homogenization of culture, the commodification of man through things like recruiting agencies and dating apps, etc. You'd have to be a literal retard to not be an anti-capitalist in 2019. No one on this board controls enough capital to feels otherwise. Retards.
oh and I became a leftist in my 20's after uh, reading theory and actually critically thinking about the world. I was an unironic liberal before, so I understand why a lot of you are retarded, but you're still retarded.
Lucas Morgan
>You need to read more Marx. All of this is revisionism, Marx clearly explains that communism is a state of conditions which cannot be immediately established due to the enormous changes required in society at large, and that once the proletariat seized power they will need to reshape society through socialism to reach communism. Nice bluff retard, would've worked if I hadn't read Marx. The revolutionary transition is the dictatorship of the proletariat, not socialism. Socialist society is communist society. Oh wait, maybe it's not a bluff, you might also be a Stalinist cretin who was genuinely misinformed by some other Stalinist cretin.
Samuel White
>muh theory grab my balls and lick it faggot
Eli Lewis
Sucks absolute shit ironically at muh praxis though
Noah Reed
>when it comes to theory and thought? The difference between the left and the right is that the right actually has a working Praxis.
Jason Perez
>the immigration crisis if you're in the US, it's because there is no crisis.
>At this point I'm convinced China is some kind of unified organism that just has to occasionally go through a molting process that involves killing a third of its population in horrifying ways. Basically what fascism is (society is an organism controlled by the an authoritarian state).
Evan Harris
>Imagine allowing your brain to be contaminated by spooks such as leftism, socialism, capitalism, libertarianism
And you have the balls to call others brainlets?
Parker Bell
>People who agree with me are smart and people who disagree with me are dumb Absolutely riveting analysis
John James
>everyone is threatened by communism equally. which is why capitalists constantly have to lie to their own people while overthrowing communist democracies in other countries
Lincoln Bailey
>The difference between the left and the right is that the right actually has a working Praxis. what's that, spamming Twitter with clown emojis?
Luke Campbell
Praxis is gay.
Tyler Cook
The salad?
Easton Cox
Marx’s correspondences are hardly stalinite fabrications lmao. “Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the first into the second. In correspondence to this period there is also a political transition period, and the state in this period can be nothing other than the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat” - Marx, letter to Bracke 5th May (better known as The Critique of the Gotha Program)
Jaxson Fisher
Based and redpilled. Honestly concerned about how many morons live among us who lack critical thinking, maybe it’s best we left them to their own democratic devices so they don’t pass own their genes.
Christopher Torres
This quote just confirms what I claimed (that the revolutionary transition is the dictatorship of the proletariat), and doesn't confirm what you claimed (that the transition is socialism, or that Marx even distinguished between socialism and communism). Your first bluff (assuming you're the same person) relied on me not having read Marx, whereas this one relies on me not having... the ability to read a single paragraph, I guess?
Luke Torres
>the commodification of man through things like recruiting agencies and dating apps,
Go on...
Hudson Jenkins
What is critical thinking?
Lucas Hill
Great argument. Also
>Gre78argent. Also >>cognativ disnance >Buord for smrt eduted Pok
hypocrisy for big fucking retards
Zachary Perez
Friendly reminder that what was once solved with war is now solved with forum arguments and you'll never convince each other of anything you indoctrinated shits.
Juan Young
>The only real leftists are nationalists actually. >all other leftists, who aren't real leftists, are either closet social democrats or closet racists. Did mommy try to drown baby in the bathtub? Keep /pol/ in /pol/.
Nathan Davis
>Literally You make a good point but fuck do you sound like a fag
John Diaz
I think Zizek wrote some shit like this regarding immigration. I assume you guys knew this, but it doesn't hurt to point it out just in case.
It’s more than just growing out of it, people with genuine left beliefs have been becoming disgusted with the nuleft of this decade.
Andrew Lewis
All those words without saying anything, yep checks out as a lefty
Brody Gonzalez
Yeah I like Zizek but the reaction to him (from both the left calling him a crypto-fascist and the right alternating between praise and disdane) is disappointing and serves as further proof that his side of things won't be taken seriously anytime soon
Ryder Bennett
hol up OP what made you want to change
Julian Perez
>No one started out as something else and then became a leftist. Before looking at the left, I was an alt-right frog /pol/ poster
