Recommend me vegan literature and philosophy. I dont want to be a filthy retarded meat pleb...

based

>unzips dick
Sounds messy

That comic is about as sophisticated as vegan arguments get.

"How to Not Die" by Michael Greger is the true green pill.

Why do you want to read "vegan" material? What are you looking for?

"Thus, because Christian morality leaves animals out of account ..., they are at once outlawed in philosophical morals; they are mere "things", mere means to any ends whatsoever. They can therefore be used for vivisection, hunting, coursing, bullfights and horse racing, and can be whipped to death as they struggle along with heavy carts of stone. Shame on such a morality that is worthy of pariahs, chandalas and mlechchhas, and that fails to recognize the eternal essence that exists in every living thing, and shines forth with inscrutable significance from all eyes that see the sun!"

"Since compassion for animals is so intimately associated with goodness of character, it may be confidently asserted that whoever is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."

"The assumption that animals are without rights and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion is the only guarantee of morality."

"The world is not a piece of machinery and animals are not articles manufactured for our use. Such views should be left to synagogues and philosophical lecture-rooms, which in essence are not so very different."

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Jordan Peterson

I didn't expect to see King Arthur on this thread of all threads

peterstein is a retarded ketofag

Animal Liberation, Peter Singer is I think the most influential.
Also How to Not Die, Michael Greger.

Porphyry.

and also Isaac Bashevis Singer with his "In relation to [animals], all people are Nazis; for the animals, it is an eternal Treblinka."

This pic would be true if we switched vegan and cigarette

You fell for the bait m8

If someone said they were only going to eat mcdonalds from then on, other people would try to dissuade them from their poor dietary choice though.

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>more important issues at stake than diet.
It literally the most important thing ever on human race.

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Jeremy Bentham did a bit on this if you want someone Western.

i don't understand why people go vegan instead of vegetarian

This is why webcomics should never, ever be used to make a political point.

Are vegens cool with eating bivalves?
>nutritious
>cheap
>sustainable
>farming results in less damage to the environment than terrestrial farming
>also literally cleans the ocean; oxygenating surrounding waters and sequestering toxins
>sentience equivalent to plants

Because a vegetarian still contributes to the unnecessary suffering and death of animals and to gross ecological damage.

i think just eating less would be a great first step. everyone is fuckin fat as hell. and cutting down on meat or removing meat is very good for health. i think fish and dairy is still alright but you gotta realize butter and cheese is like mostly saturated fat.

Cringe

you should have more important things to do than caring about cows and chickens

Anything but Consider the Lobster
DFW wad based enough to write a animal rights menifesto for a paid county fair repo, yet kept eating meat until the day he khs.

By the way OP pic is wrong
I'm going to eat salad != I'll vegan for the rest of my life

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like what

Many Mahayana Buddhists are. Hell most vegetarian restaurants in my city are run by Buddhist Vietnamese/Taiwanese people.

seething meat-eater

read the impeachment of man

Also honey. The only anti-honey arguments I've seen are essentially: "It takes the bees a long time to make honey and it's really mean to STEAL it from them :'( ". C'mon vegen bros; do bees really suffer from psychological anguish from having their honey "stolen"?

honey is obviously further down the list in terms of harm, but the honey is for the bees to use as aliment

That pic is retarded because a good steak is one of life's greatest pleasures and you're giving it up for no real reason, this is why people don't like vegans

no it is a pretty lowly pleasure

They're living in my property so it's only fair they pay rent. They're free to go anytime

ive never seen a healthy looking non neurotic vegan. eat meat or the maggots will eat your brain

This man hurt an old lady and said he was happy when she finally died btw

Spooks

Subhuman. Completely wanted trips.
You deserve the extinction that'll come to You and your breed. Your successors will be weak and shall cringe while mine rule the world.

None, they were all dead before being able to pick up a pen.

— «MORALIA»: «BEASTS ARE RATIONAL», AND «ON THE EATING OF FLESH» BY LVCIVS MESTRIVS PLVTARCHVS.

— «IMPEACHMENT OF MAN» BY SAVITRI DEVI.

— THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE.

— THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS.

— THE GOSPEL OF PHILIP.

— THE GOSPEL OF THE PERFECT LIFE.

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Peter Singer's Animal Liberation
Also pic related pioneered the #NameTheTrait argument. He has a YouTube channel called Ask Yourself. He's very autistic so you'll have to get through that.

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>saturated fat is inherently bad
This is your mind on American food standards

>They saw a Samaritan carrying a lamb on his way to Judea. He said to his disciples, "That man is round about the lamb."
>They said to him, "So that he may kill it and eat it."
>He said to them, "While it is alive, he will not eat it, but only when he has killed it and it has become a corpse."
>They said to him, "He cannot do so otherwise."
>He said to them, "You too, look for a place for yourself within repose, lest you become a corpse and be eaten."

>Believing anything Americans say
Americans are extremists in everything they do, they don’t understand the word balance. Sure veganism is healthier than the typical American diet but that’s not saying much. I’ve yet to see any study comparing the Vegan diet with a balance omnivore diet consisting one whole foods (prove me wrong and I’ll go vegan).

The thing that’s wrong with OPs image is that people are fully educated on the effects of alcohol and bad food. Veganism is linked with an entire ideology and people sense this intuitively. You feel sorry vegans, you’d never hear a person argue the merits of McDonalds virulently with a saying like “McDonalds is a global company that employs millions of people and in many cases brings communities affordable food where they have none. It raises the standards of living globally and in many cases Incorporates the local cuisine in their dishes which include everything as exotic as squid in Korea to Poutine in Canada. McDonalds is a triumph of modern logistics and management and provides children with lasting beautiful memories for their birthdays, holidays, and family events. They have no qualms listing what’s in their food and caloric intake is available on all their products. I love McDonalds and it’s superior in these ways to almost any other type of food distribution.” Vegan products are boutique and many times cause more harm to the environment than food which the most obvious example of this is Almond milk using enough water to sustain farms of animals and communities of people for months. The market saw this niche in the 2000’s and bought up most of the start-up vegan companies like Blue Sky for example. There’s nothing ethical or good about veganism and it makes little to no impact on the environment or culture outside of the west. That’s the pragmatist argument, other than that it relies on authoritarian impulses to dictate its agenda. It PETA can adopt over a hundred dogs for a PR campaign and later euthanize them because it doesn’t want to care for them just imagine what the companies selling you these vegan products think about you and the products. Morningstar recalled some of them because they had meat products in them. If you approach this as a metaphysical question its less about eating meat and more about modernity and the way we consume everything not just our food.

T. Worked at a Vegan Diner for three years.

That’s because lots of plants contain letchins which are inbuilt defences to stop animals eating them. It’s not ideal to have these but in a balanced diet it’s not the end of he world. Problem is most vegan diets have to be very high in these to get any semblance of nutrition, particularly protein. So vegans are lowkey poisoning themselves daily and after the initial upshot of cutting our sugar and processed food (1-3 months), most feel horrible. If you disagree, please tell me the evolutionary basis as to why a chickpea would want to be eaten as it doesn’t contain seeds like fruit.

Unironically based

>who is Master Dogen

All Carnists in this thread go watch this film and know that this is what you support

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yeah but when we’re talking about massive civilizational change vegetarianism aint a bad start. dairy will be thevlast stand of the world. i think we’ll literally have to lose a whole continent to flooding or famine before anyone would even consider it.

Webcomics and really comics in general are among the most pants-on-head retarded ways humankind ever communicates
This is just absolute fucking nonsense, you could replace the "I'm going vegan" with anything the author cares about
People write long polemics against McDonald's, cigarettes, and alcohol every fucking day, but whoever drew this thinks they're a fucking genius

What’s with vegans and docu-series? It really speaks to a lack of perspective about the world and to American and western entitlement. Most of the world slaughter and cook animals themselves and I believe the “horrifying” practices of meat houses are everyday occurrences to them. The third world exists to make your food and products. Only someone so sheltered would be shocked into thinking those places are bad. Another user already laid out the moral arguments of the money making process and marketing involved in most vegan goods as they’re all owned by Coca-Cola. It’s no coincidence that vegans are stereotyped as effeminate and weak protected children. It’s no coincidence they’re mostly women. They’re all too self-absorbed and unaware of their own stations in life to realize their moral and ethical impulses are ruled and dictated by comfy capitalism.

Environmental harm etc... are good reasons to reduce meat consumption, but a lot of vegans become so for ethical reasons. In the former case, bivalves are off the menu because they're still living creatures that have an inherent right to life. Someone's going to respond to that argument with 'carrots have a right to life too though so...' and that's fine, everyone draws a personal line in the sand somewhere when it comes to eating, vegans just happen to draw it at a specific phyla. In the latter case, honey is off the menu because non-human animals have the right not to be exploited. "They worked hard for that honey..." is a bit of an oversimplification - to have them produce the honey is to treat them as a commodity, which many vegans believe is the core sin of the meat-production market: The reduction of non-human animals to a product.

Is this bait? Lectins (I assume that's what you're trying to say) are mostly broken down by the cooking process. Cooking chickpeas reduces the lectins present by about 90%. By the way, natural selection stops being a factor when we domesticate something. Legumes have been part of the human diet for 5000+ years - that's a long time selecting crops for their edibility and nutritional value.

You're arguing moral absolutism. Just because something is necessary (and perhaps okay) in the third-world doesn't mean it's also not okay in the first world. I direct you to the old 'is it morally correct to lie to the police to shelter a wanted man?' argument - No, it's morally wrong to the lie to the police. But what if it's 1939, you live in Austria, and the wanted man is an innocent Jew? Different conditions lead to different moral outcomes.

Because most people wouldn't be okay with the meat industry if they saw what was going on. The same people who love their dogs and would never torture animals will come onto our side when they see the utter brutality of farms. Philosophical arguments for veganism are one thing, but films like Dominion show the emotional side of it that a syllogism would never show.

>that comic
No one says this. Go outside user.

I have no problem arguing for a basic outline of moral consistency. I can recognize that different cultures have different moral systems but I’m not arguing so much for either western or eastern culture to adopt one or the other but really I’m juxtaposing them to emphasize the general lack of self-awareness most vegans have and how much of a first world practice it really is. This is the approach they take to virtually every level of analysis they have about veganism as its generally a moral argument only as we see more dire consequences to the environment than animal consumption. It’s simply not a pressing issue, especially if we’re playing the moral relativity game. If the world is your primary concern worry about ocean pollution. This is why there’s no real intellectual component to veganism because its arguments are based in sophistry and moralisms that only apply to the upper classes of capitalist societies. No, we don’t all need to follow the same moral codes but if I’m presented with a moral argument it’s easy to dispel from this vantage point and veganism offers little else for its own propagation.

>most people
Let me stop you right there. Dogs are good food for many people. This is a moral argument that works for YOU. This is a moral argument that effects hardly any people on Earth or even in America so talk of a “movement” of any kind is firstly untenable to say the least and based entirely on idealism. All this talk about environmentalism and saving animals is useless when considering the vast majority of beings on this Earth, and I’m talking vast, consider veganism a joke. Considering its roots and demographic it’s simple to tel that anyone outside of it sees it as the lifestyle commodification it truly is and that’s why genius celebrities do it, because it’s so quirky. It’s entirely pathos driven which as we all know is the territory of brainlets. This is an argument that works for hardly anyone and if you think it’ll win over thoughtful people you’re just wrong.

>muh hitler example
>animals are compared to Jews
>mfw

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Do you not think most people know about the meat industry, as if it’s some big secret? What city do you reside in, son?

>That pic is retarded because a good steak is one of life's greatest pleasures

jesus christ sink america

What consists as a "vegan diet" is not predicated with health as the end result, it is principally about not causing suffering in animals. The fact that science supports a plant based diet for promoting health was not known by the founders of the vegan movement, they latched on to that after the fact.

A strict diet of beer and potato chips counts as a vegan diet, no animals harmed, but it is extremely unhealthy.

Whether you are vegan or not is none of my concern, I only care about the impact that my diet has on my own health because I want to be healthy, and for that end I have absolutely no reason to get caught up in the vegan vs carnist flamewars, largely fueled by FUD campaigns Big Food and the cognitive dissonance of people that can't accept it is entirely unnecessary for health promotion and maintenance to consume animal based foods. I have no reason to lie to myself about food simply because of what other people think or because the one kind tastes better than the other.

Nutrition science is incredibly complicated and still far from fully understood. The kind of study you asked for at that standard you specified you would need to thousands of subjects of all different races, ages, genders, confined to metabolic wards for their whole or most lives where their diets are strictly controlled. Good luck getting volunteers, funding and approval from an ethics committee for that.

The next best is epidemiological studies. These are the kind of studies that first linked smoking with lung cancer by studying lifestyle habits of people such as smoking and the diseases they got.

Good sources to learn more, if you have the months and years to go through everything, would be nutritionfacts.org and plantpositive.com. This is about as far as you can get without actually getting the equivalent a doctoral degree.

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>But seriously, there are more important issues at stake than diet.
Veganism isn't a dietary choice, it is a moral act motivated by the belief that all beings that experience emotion are sentient and deserving of freedom and self determination.

>Go do some metaphysics.
What more metaphysics is to be done after Kant?

>have an inherent right to life
lol

It’s a moral act for very little people

Vegans don't drink milk or consume any animal byproducts because they believe them to be the products of slavery.

Most vegans would be opposed to eating bivalves because they're technically "animals," but it's hard to see how pain and suffering for a bivalve is anymore sophisticated than a plant folding in its leaves after being touched.

Harvesting honey is a pretty traumatic process for the bees desu. It requires gassing them with smoke in order to pacify them, separating them from their hive, and scraping the wax off the comb (which kills any larva inside) in order to drain the honey. While it doesn't require the complete destruction of their habit or the death of the hive, it's also not as simple as hammering a tap into a maple tree and attaching a hose to it.

BeeKeepers love their bees more than anyone and I would know because I plan on being one when I buy my land. Most keepers rely on them to make a living and what you’re saying simply isn’t true, except that yes it’s a stressful period for the bees but you’re also literally projecting personification onto bees when they don’t have neural centers that experience the same emotional life that we do. “Stress” to a bee isn’t something they carry around afterwards in their psyche because they don’t have one. Bees are also something we should be concerned with as we need them more than anything to survive on this planet and yes many of them are dwindling. You know where they thrive? Under the care and protection of BeeKeepers many of whom are working class. Take your bourgeois vegan ass out of here before you say more stuff you know nothing about.

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People "know" conceptually what happens in the meat industry, but unless they've worked on a farm processing meat or dairy they probably don't have a firm grasp of everything that happens on a farm. I'm a chef and I've seen first hand how squeamish even seasoned cooks can be when the butcher splits a pigs head in two with a bandsaw in order to make head cheese. People will freak out and shut down if you ask them to gut or clean a hog for bbq on the 4th of July. These weren't just cityfolk, they were my cousins and family who grew up in and around my uncle's farm but never farmed themselves.

I don't deny that beekeepers love their bees, most small farmers love the animals that they raise in my experience. I was just considering what the act of having your honey harvested is like for the bee as a thought experiment. I'm neither bourgeois nor vegan, but I am concerned with the ethical treatment of animals. You're right that the bees in the wild are struggling and we should be concerned for their welfare because they play an important role in the natural environment. However the reasons for their struggle are man made, the conversion of wild prairie land into farm land has deprived them of their natural habitat and this impacts bee farmers as well as bees in the wild.

>Dude animals are just like people
>Dude what do you mean domesticating a wild animal over hundreds of thousands of years is different from enslaving sentient humans

Eating something that sequesters toxins.... why though?

Most people are woefully uninformed about a lot of subjects. The trailer for Dominion has around 380k views on YouTube; the full-length documentary has 700k. I doubt that most people are watching this type of stuff.
Also, I love the condescension. As if being in favour of the brutal enslavement and murder of innumerable animals every single day makes you more of a man than me.

Not that user, but...

>As if being in favour of the brutal enslavement and murder of innumerable animals every single day makes you more of a man than me.

...I'd say that is more manly than being in favour of hugging animals.

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These days, I avoid saying that i'm veg bc people are insane. Now i just use senteces like:
"Actually, i'm reeeeeeally not hungry"
"No, thank you, i just ate b4 coming here"
"Oh i would LOVE eat this, but i'm really allergic"
"Sorry, my religion doesn't allow eating _insert any animal here_. Yeah, this religion is from a small island in the pacific. Yeah, i'm just insane for believing in that, so more reasonable believing in this book called bible"
"Did i already say that i'm really full?! Coz' i fucking am"
If they discover that i'm veg and come saying aggressive shit:
"Yes, i don't eat enough proteins, i just want to die faster. Tired of working everyday, u kno?"
"Oh yeah? I didn't knew that, i guess i'll start eating animals tomorrow"
"Nice!"
"I see... but i don't think the same :)"
"K"
"Mmm"
"So true"
"You're right!"

Bitch, judge me, but after my entire fucking life hearing crazy people, i just gave up. People are really aggressive like i'm hurting them wtf. Some of them are really nice tho, with those i engage in conversation if we feel like it. It's a nice, sunny, fresh and friendly conversation. No need to anyone change anyone, nor me, nor them.
"Oh, are you veg?"
"Yes" (fear starts)
"Nice, i couldn't do it now, but nice!"
"Yes, everybody have different timings and goals"
"Yes :)"
Then we gatter around the table. Me eating my goddam veggies and other people eating tf they want

Manliness = brutality and murder?
You sound like a teenager.

based, I watched it and now I support automation of the meat industry

what horrible jobs those people have to perform

>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity
>Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Eastern and Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, violence, and assertiveness.[5][6][7][8]

I'm not the one making these rules, sweetie.

>You sound like a teenager.
This level of ad hominem makes you sound like a preteen.

no one is saying they are just like humans, but animals are living and sentient creatures and it is unnecessary to eat them in the modern world im not sure whybthis sounds like a radical idea to you.

Holy shit you are a pussy faggot

May sound trite but this is actually based.
Too many times on Yea Forums people are like
>you believe that something is what it is? LMAO are you retarded??? XD
Why do people do this?

I didn't ask you about the traditional view of masculinity. I asked you about your view of masculinity. And if you think masculinity is just brutality and murder you are likely an angsty teenager.

>a thread about vegans has 92 replies

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>durrr da vegans r invading my meatcuck safe space :( i dont want to hear about animals suffering or my risk for heart disease :(

As I said in my first reply to this thread >That comic is about as sophisticated as vegan arguments get.
Being outraged at the suffering caused to animals put vegans in a perpetual emotional state, permenantly handicapping their ability to thing rationally and objectively.

Not a very masculine behavior mind you.

>I didn't ask you about the traditional view of masculinity. I asked you about your view of masculinity.
>Manliness = brutality and murder?
You weren't specific enough to claim I'm the one who didn't answer you correctly.

As for my own views on masculinity, no one except for you cares. I think you are just trying to save face by clawing at technicalities in another attempt to discredit me instead of my point since you can't address the substance of this argument directly.

A very feminine rhetorical strategy.

---

But disregarding all that, my initial statement in simply pointed out that brutality and murder is more masculine than would be the case if those practices in question are stopped or reversed. The traits that would drive this alternative would be characterized as kindness, compassion and empathy, which are not stereotypical or traditional masculine attributes.

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Someone actually that it would be worth their time to type this out and post it.

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Huemer's Dialogues on Ethical Vegetarianism are the best ones I've ever read. He just systematically destroys any argument for eating animal products.

Can be found on his site owl232.net/papers.htm

I am going to use this, thanks.

No problem. Here is another very good and more succinct one:
spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/readings/norcross.pdf

>M: So if you were stranded on a lifeboat, about to die of starvation, and there was nothing to eat except a chicken, would you eat it?
>V: Of course.
>M: Aha! So you don’t really think meat-eating is wrong.
>V: When I say something is wrong, I don’t mean it’s wrong in every conceivable circumstance. After all, just about anything is okay in some possible circumstance. I just mean that it

>He just systematically destroys any argument for eating animal products.
I know I'm just nitpicking but eh, he doesn't actually destroy "any"[all] arguments for eating animal products.

Any argument he makes not based ethics? Moral arguments won't sway moral nihilists like myself.

To clarify I read a bit of the first day of those papers but so far it seems to be all moral arguments, which I've read up on before a few years ago, but lost interest in after a while.

So I'm just interested in arguments that do not rely on appealing to people's sense of morality, if you would be so kind.

Other than reduced Co2 emissions, what are other benefits of a vegan diet?

Not eating meat sounds unsustainable, and I like wearing leather.

I mean it's a moral issue. You may as well say "Well can he make an argument that doesn't depend on the external world existing? I'm a Berkeleyan idealist". You can't even convince moral nihilists that the Holocaust was wrong so it's useless.

How can one think about a moral issue without appealing to common sense morality?

Fair enough, thanks for the answer anyway.

>Not eating meat sounds unsustainable
The opposite is true. It has been ages since I last researched this topic, but while not true in all cases, generally speaking, especially for current practices, it costs several times more resources and energy to produce 1lb of beef than 1lb of lentils. The kicker is lentils superior in overall nutrition if you don't ignore the micro to macro nutrient balance.

I don't know what the prices are everywhere, but I can get 1lb of lentils for less than $1, where as 1lb of mince beef would cost me about $4 or more depending on the grade.

I'm not counting chicken because I've been to a chicken factory farm and saw the truth for myself. The farmer told me he buys a different brand of chicken, he doesn't eat the ones he raises.

I did the math a bit wrong, converting units and all.
1lb of lentils I can get for about $0.7
1lb of beef mince for about $2 or more