GRRM is most likely the best modern writer bar none. No book I have ever read even comes close to competing with the depth of Martin's character. And Jaimes arc is the single most moving thing put to paper in decades. His plot is so complex it puts Tolkien to shame. The way Martin is able to handle all of the intricate plots together and work them in seamlessly is a work of genius.
You guys simply must not have read the books if you continue to call them trash. Maybe they are just too long for your simple minds to handle.
I've only watched the show, but I agree about Jamie's arc being the best one in the series.
Josiah Diaz
lol
Ethan Green
It's way better done in the books. He's been done terribly in the show
Adam Phillips
He does good characters and his plots are really thrilling at best. The worlds are interesting too. Basically all you need in genre fiction.
Unfortunately he fell for the epic fantasy meme, should've just written trilogies at most.
Mason Rogers
Remove Dany, the Walkers, and the fucking dragons and it would be perfect
Adrian Davis
>Unfortunately he fell for the epic fantasy meme, Books are in no way epic fantasy.
Xavier Butler
Well, whatever you want to call long ass fantasy series
Christian Powell
Too all the got bookfags who think that the books will be radically different, they wont.
Do you really think Aegon, Stannis, or Euron have any chance in the books to beat Dany or Jon? Theres no chance, its obvious that those characters like Darskstar exist to simply be a stepping stone for the main characters to defeat in the end. The show runners have an outline of how GRRM wanted to end the series, it will likely end in a similar fashion with only minor difference, but will have the same feel.
Do you really think we will get an good white walker lore? What makes you say this? GRRM has hardly any deep lore in his books. His lore consists of vague descriptions that his fandom then uses to pump out their next fan theory that is just going to get them disappointed.
And lastly, why are do we not mock bookfags more. These people literally get excited because of muh magic and muh ice zombies. These people are fucking losers. Their peepees get excited when they read about magic pirate Euron and his big dragon horn. Let me tell you bookfags, you are all pathetic losers if you honestly get excited at the idea of GRRM fleshing out the white walkers, who are not real, they are fiction. Who fucking cares about their lore, its all made up you fucking wankers.
I understand where you're coming from. The books are definitely thrilling, and one of GRRM's best traits as a writer is how concise his prose is, yet still creating such vivid and effective imagery. I feel most of /lit views his characters and storytelling as too shallow and predictable. After all, Jaime's arc is super easy to digest. He's an arrogant warrior who loses the one quality that composes his identity, and has to rebuild himself as a knight who can't swing a sword. This forces him to confront one of GRRM's most frequent motifs, the supposed honor of knighthood and various character's interpretations of such. It's just so terribly obvious, and many see that as limiting the depth and achievement of the series.
Ian Bell
Couldn't even wait a month after Gene Wolfe died? Classless, even for Yea Forums.
Blake Garcia
I like GW but why is he brought up so often here, especially in the context of GRRM? And yes I get that your post is a joke
Sebastian Wright
If you think these books are good, you are a pathetic human being. Its basically one really long comic book, its not something to take serious. Its for grown ups who never wanted to grow up and so they continue to get excited by childish things like magic, dragons and ice zombies. These things arent real, they are made up nonsense. Grow up.
Ryder James
>best modern writer bar none >The way Martin is able to handle all of the intricate plots together and work them in seamlessly is a work of genius It's pretty natural to throw Wolfe's name at that.
More seriously, byzantine politics are not the be-all and end-all of a story, and just because he does that well does not make his works masterpieces.
Nolan Allen
no it does though. Tolkien wasnt even intelligent enough to make a work as epic and complex as asoiaf. In 50 years, people will have had mostly forgotten about Tolkien and GRRM will be considered the greatest fantasy writer of all time. Nothing is able to compete with Martin's character. They are just so realistic and compelling. Every piece is dialogue is meaningful and draws you in. No other writer has been able to do what Martin has done, and none will likely be able to repeat what hes accomplished.
Luke Morales
Nothin can surpass Martin. His prose is sublime, his character jump out of the page. No other writer has been able to write characters as well as Martin, its embarrassing to even compare anothers character to Martin's. His plot is easily the most abitious plot ever put to paper and has far surpassed any other work of fiction. His worldbuilding is easily the most impressive of any work of fiction. The only worldbuilding that rivals Martin is actual history.
Jeremiah Murphy
>Tolkien wasnt even intelligent enough to make a work as epic and complex as asoiaf. In 50 years, people will have had mostly forgotten about Tolkien and GRRM will be considered the greatest fantasy writer of all time. it saddens me that there are people in this world who unironically believe this
Dominic Jones
Ludvig the sixteenth was murdered because he was born to the wrong class. Most people, however, won't get murdered despite being born to the wrong class. Life is unfair, and some are born without good will and intention.
They believe it because its true. Tyrion far surpasses Legolas or Gimli. GRRM has crafted a world so realistic that it history professors will likely use his work as a way to understand medieval history due to how realistic the characters are and the situations he created. His world design is nothing short of perfection, you could easily see these magnificent castles in real life.
Grayson Edwards
>GRRM has crafted a world so realistic Realism will be remembered as 'reality, after the removal and focus of good things.'
How can you even compare the two at this point. Martin has put Tolkien in the children dept. where he belongs. Adults understand the complexity of life and how Martin has created a world that is as real as day. It is the single most important piece of literature put down on paper in decades and will likely be seen as the greatest literary work of all time.
Parker Cooper
and loss of focus* Brains sure do the things they want to say. Or my mind, or me.
Look at this cuck not admitting the genius of Martin. Every chapter Martin has written has been absolute genius. Each page works to the next payoff. Each storyline is crafted in magnificent fashion. Writers dream of being able to write one page of genius or one line, but ever single sentence Martin has written has been what every writer dreams he some day might be able to write.
Charles Harris
>Sunset found him squatting in the thread, groaning. Every post was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the janitor came up, he was posting Reddit. The more he drank the (you)s, the more he shatpost, but the more he shatpost, the thirstier for (you)s he grew.
Jaxon Rodriguez
Lol, Tolkien is a hack. He made a childrens story and tried to pass it off as a serious piece of fiction and everyone believed it because he was a professor. We now see because of Martins works that TOlkien was never anyhting special at all.
Ha, you just dont understand that scene and likely havent even read the books. He is trying to get us to a place where we can imagine whats happening, its supposed to be gross, and any other writer would dream of being able to give their audience such a realistic sense of what their character is going through
Cameron Ortiz
>likely be seen as the greatest literary work of all time. >game of thrones
I stopped watching years ago but even at that point, Jaime was the only character that I found interesting. might be because of the actor though
Noah Hughes
I know this is semi bait but ASOIAF is genuinely good. Martin had thoroughly absorbed classic and medieval history which is why his world is so rich and compelling. Everything in ASOIAF is a tribute either to Greek drama or to golden age SFF. The idea of indifferent gods acting through men whose free will is subverted to a cosmic will manifesting itself through their actions is simply breathtaking.
Ian Peterson
Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichaen duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.
Colton Butler
fat pink mass
Austin Hall
You can tell that he is at least a good writer by how insanely dimwitted the show became after they ran out of material. I know Yea Forums is full of contrarians, but the first 4 seasons are legitimately good television. The only thing I'm wondering is if he gave up writing the books because he couldn't figure out a satisfying ending, which would explain why even the events in the show that have been obviously going to happen for years feel so forced and unnatural now.
Levi Lee
>Euron >Dragonbinder Horn >Valyrian Steel armor >Sailed to Valyria
Asher Johnson
This desu. Btw, was I the only one that thought that he was going to be the one to kill the dragon? His arc seemed to be about redeeming himself as a failed knight, and killing a dragon is just about the most knightly thing you can do
Jack Smith
Euron is all bullshit. Rodrick calls him out on it.
Cooper Powell
but can one not pity the ignorant and the blind for the world they outright refuse to see?
Kayden Ortiz
Everything is way better done in the books.
Benjamin Gomez
if you wanna gross me out just describe a man in the presence of niggers, no need to get all pee pee poo poo
Hudson Reed
i like the books alot
Gabriel Barnes
>bad guys bad That's not true at all though, for Tolkien. Saruman genuinely thought he was doing the right thing
Brody Stewart
Reminder that Garlan Tyrell is one of, if not the straight-up nicest character in the books and the shining definition of what a virtuous knight should be. Also, he's a badass who can fight three other men at once.
It's way better done in the show. The books are brainlet central.
Kayden Walker
Jaime has a three act arc in the books where Act 2 is just hitting its climax. Book 6 will see the end of Act 2 and the setup for Act 3, while Book 7 (godswilling) will complete his arc.
The show dragged out Jaime Act 2 for 3 or 4 seasons and did Jaime Act 3 in about 2 episodes.
Nikolaj is still stellar but being able to emote with perfect subtlety doesn't mean much when the writing is shit.
Nathan Lewis
>long ass plot >big ass world >fuck ton of characters oh please what is epic fantasy according to you? something that spans 1000 years minimum?
Andrew Murphy
It's low fantasy. The world GRRM created is realistic aside from a few magical elements used sparsely. Not like LOTR where everything pretty much, even your average rock, is magical.
Nathaniel Ross
All selection is natural selection. Nature meaning 'of the spirits'. Jews for example have been cattle-bred by demons, and look the part.
Owen Campbell
>The way Martin is able to handle all of the intricate plots together and work them in seamlessly is a work of genius. really? last time i checked he's going to die without finishing it because he can't climb out of the hole he wrote himself in
Matthew Barnes
>Muh random main character deaths >Muh realistic fantasy world
Ian Cook
GRRM is a fantastic world builder. He's also a lazy fat fuck who will never finish the books, and a sellout who allowed two l i t e r a l retards, who have fucked up every project they've ever undertaken, to take his story in a bizarre direction.
William Ross
>it's another "tolkien kiddies and grrm manchildren arguing" chapter Both of you are pathetic. They're fun books, meant to be consumed, if you're older than 20 you shouldn't be sincerely defending them. Nothing wrong with actually liking something but c'mon, you people are worse than redditors or whatever your most hated internet group is, when they complain about the new star wars or new capeshit
Joseph Parker
>it's another "pseudo-intellectual immediately exposes himself by not recognising the value of art or the merit of debate" stanza.
Eli Myers
Tolstoy war and peace
Andrew Hill
what about the soldier who died when he blew the horn ?
Oliver Taylor
Barristan Selmy
Jackson Sanders
Dany or the actress, at once one and at twice the other, come to me almost every night in dreams. Our bond grows stronger and more meaningful with each slumber. Every day is beautiful.
Jordan Price
Read a Throne of Bones then tell me again how George Rape Rape Martin is even remotely a decent writer. Gaiman is better and he's a fourth rate writer.
Tyler Baker
>no books i have ever read thankfully you have ensured to us with clarity your disability in this matter. I suggest you read more, with great haste.
Cameron Gutierrez
Old and busted, Garlan is the new hotness
Jackson Roberts
Imagine typing this with a straight face.
Alexander Cook
THE MORE SHE DRANK THE MORE SHE SHAT
Asher Cooper
People credit asoiaf with realism without it meriting it imo. I'm having trouble putting my finger on it but I think it has to do with the religion in his books. It's as though the average person is an apathetic 21st century atheist/agnostic. The magic set aside, there's no sense of a heaven that presses down on them and a hell that presses up. Surely, if asoiaf is a realistic vision of medieval life wouldn't we see it portrayed in medieval literature? Everyone in Westeros is too cynical for the society they live in.
Ayden Baker
>it saddens me that there are people in this world who unironically believe this no-one believes it
Ethan Bennett
Tolkien is to creative literary genius what Martin is to hack pulp idiocy. They both so far surpass anyone else in their field that they will be remembered 1,000 years from now as a kind of yin and yang of fantasy, a Manichean duality of speculative letters. For every sublime, luminous beauty that Tolkien has gifted the world, Martin has cursed us with a tedious, banal ugliness. It is unfair to compare the two directly on any one point, because Martin is in every way the anti-Tolkien, patently sterile, parasitical, and inferior, but so much so that he becomes a monument in his own right, and counterbalances Tolkien. Could one exist without the other? Tolkien obviously could. But it is only by the contrast that Martin offers that we can truly appreciate the full depths and heights of Tolkien. Our understanding of Tolkien would be incomplete if Martin had never set pen to page. It is through only the abject failure and futility of Martin that we can approach an apprehension of the true scope and scale of Tolkien's hitherto inconceivable greatness. Perhaps this is what Tolkien had in mind when he wrote about the Music of the Ainur. If Tolkien is a subcreator in the image of Eru, truly Martin is like unto Melkor. It is only reflected in the awfulness of the one that we can fully see the goodness of the other.
"epic fantasy" is more like LoTR, where the fantasy elements are heavily pervasive. It's like what Star Wars is to The Fly in terms of sci-fi. The length of the plot doesn't alone determine the type of fantasy.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand ASOIAF. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of European medieval history most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Jaimie's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Epicurean literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike ASOIAF truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Jaimie's existential catchphrase "The things I do for love," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as GRRM's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.
And yes, by the way, i DO have a Targaryen tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid
Benjamin Davis
>Thinking Stannis won't take the throne Dany will either go mad queen and get killed(especially since the faceless man got their hands on the book containing dragon killing lore) or she might come to the conclusion that she should not waltz into Westeros and leave that entire area in ruin by her departure. SHe instead founds her kingdom in Slavers Bay.
Jonathan Thomas
Jaime murdering his cousin and outright raping Cersei in the show utterly compromises his character. He's far more consistent in the books. You can disagree if you want, it just means you're a fucking idiot.
Isaiah Campbell
I always liked this guy, even as a very minor character. I think his inclusion was to show there are genuine knights, and to contradict those int he story that insist otherwise, without dwelling on it.
Owen Jackson
I don't think kids should be allowed to read fantasy books desu. The Hobbit destroyed my life by turning me into a prodigal reader at a very young age (and thus social outcast, introvert) which led me, years down the line, to destroy my life by majoring in Literature.
Nicholas Rivera
“Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up, she was shitting brown water. The more she drank the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew.”
Nathaniel Price
On the Last Episode of Game of Thrones:
I don't think I've ever felt myself lose more braincells watching an episode of television. I know that I can't expect anything worthwhile from the plot at this point so I won't mention it but presentation is still important. What kind of movie-going mongoloid does HBO take me for? Nonsensical battle tactics? A complete disregard for temporal and sometimes even spatial continuity between scenes? A lack of dialogue in favour of more Disney-movie shots of Jon and Dany epicly flying about on dragons? Drawn out and hideously generic film score playing over a 3-minute montage of pointless characters dying heroically (and wordlessly)? I get the audience is, at this point, supposed to jam buttery goods into their dumb fucking face while enjoying the spectacle but goddamn don't try to divorce me from my self-awareness like that, it's all I have left int his miserable life. The best I can say is that at least it's over. At least we're done with the gay zombie shit. Zombies and dragons and magic and fantasy tropes are the worst parts of GoT. Just lazily rehash historical events under the guise of a fantasy world with just enough information to make me want to speculate on them you fat fucks
William Bennett
how the fuck are people actually falling for this bait? the pretentious retards on this board act like they're smarter than other boards/the general public but you fucking fools still respond to this as if it can be interpreted as anything other than a man very obviously fucking with you.
Jaime has no arc on the show, what the fuck are you talking about? In the book he is a broken man.
Nathaniel Wilson
Grrm has said again and again in every interview that he thinks he sucks compared to tolkien, why do you fags try to make beef when there is none. They are also both completly different works with vastly different material and themes.
Lotr is in a post war context to show that even in the worst and most cruel times, there is still good and bravery in humanity. (And the scars of war and what not).
Asoaif is just a darker more realistic approach to high fantasy, highly focused in politics mostly. You really cant compare both.
Eli Garcia
Also I thought you snubs banned asoaif threads. Also go read dunk and egg.
Hunter Scott
guaranteed replies
Wyatt Williams
>tfw this is how i learn gene wolfe died actually went to googled and said what the fuck
James Ramirez
I completely agree. From the first chapter of a game of thrones, you realize that finally, someone has taken fantasy to a level of maturity and intellectualism that it had been lacking due to Tolkien's influence, Tolkien was fine as a writer, but his work was such a simplistic take on the genre. Martin has at last given fantasy what it has always wished it to be.
And even though Martin has finally set fantasy on a realistic and intellectual path, I do not think we will ever see anything as monumental as asoiaf. There can only be so many great minds, and like in philosophy, we will likely see asoiaf put into the same place as platos republic.
And even if Martin does not finish the series, it might even make the series that much better. The sheer imagination that has gone into the world and having its utterly complex and engaging plot simply be unfinished would leave asoiaf as one of the greatest pieces of art of the modern era. Just thinking about the amount of potential the series has and it simply being left unfinished brings a slight smile to my face.
And yes, many people might not like asoiaf, but many people do not appreciate Stephen Hawking's a Brief History of Time. Many people unfortunately are just not into big ideas that are complex and rewarding if you are willing to put in the time. But those of us who are willing, can appreciate things normal people could only dream of.
Josiah Williams
Aegon's gonna win the Game. R-right guys?
Logan Barnes
I really like GRRM. People shit on him constantly because of some imagined beef between him and Tolkien or whatever but I really find his more realistic approach to fantasy refreshing. And it isn't dark for the sake of darkness. What the show gets so wrong is that it glorifies the grit as something that's "cool". It's not. ASOIAF is a dyed-in-the-wool anti-war story. In all the grandeur of a fantasy world the most wondrous thing has always been the familial bonds and memories of the Starks
Samuel Phillips
It's such a shame the book took out so much of the bright glimmers of hope and the good in humanity just to wallow in "heh... edgy grim dark kid... every episode ends with a cliffhanger... we just killed all your favorite characters" It's so tiresome, it happily wallows in the war and death that the books go to great lengths to show how tragic and tiresome it is
Nathan Reyes
>GRRM is most likely the best modern writer bar none. the shit you guys say sometime
Jaxson Rivera
Agreed. Its way above anything Ive ever read by Brandon Sanderson
Cooper Scott
Just finished Stormlights 3rd book and I gotta say, asoiaf has ruined fantasy for me. I couldnt take Sandersons writing. Kaladin is annoying and a gary stu and the whole thing reeks of mormonism
Jaxson Hughes
Based jews.
Gavin Reed
Ya, but GRRM messed up when he mentioned Renlys eyes, therefore he sucks ass
Tyler Long
Remember most of our literature from the Middle Age has been filtered by the Church who was the main provider of writers and copists in that era. If you want a more accurate idea of what people's lives and ideas were like it's better to look at medieval history. It's filled with bastard characters not unlike what you could see in GRmeme's books. Look up the works and life of Jean Froissart for a stellar example.
Luke Peterson
Classic pasta, I hadn't see the original template in years.
Tyler Nelson
Hes ok but its not like hes the second coming.
Jose Roberts
Stellar analysis. Id say youre on to something
Ryder Perry
Hmmm really makes you think
Jason Taylor
based
Daniel Edwards
Based!
Cameron Peterson
Based.
Gavin Rodriguez
Based,
Justin Martin
Based.
Luke Morris
based,d
Dylan Bell
He should focus less on the Mad Queen and focus more on the Lovecraftian shit going on in the far east.
Andrew Jones
>Dany realizes that the real iron throne is the friends we made along the way
Would unironically be a good story arc for her if she ultimately decided to just stay in Essos.
Ayden James
I've read all the books so far, and while Martin has the knack to keep you engage on a moment-to-moment basis, in hindsight you realise that 99% of characters engage in meaningless brownian motion around Westeros or do fuck-all (like Dany and her saga of policing some random brown people city)
Isaac Hernandez
It is interesting how ASOIAF has changed from a generally liked fantasy series among genre fans to a very divisive, shit-flinging attracting thing with the popularity of the TV show. I suppose contextualism was right: everything surrounding the (book) series is more important than the books itself when it comes to rating it.
Andrew Campbell
Yeah but he can write it nicely. His whole thing is following shitty plot threads cuz "sometimes it really do be like that". I'll even be fine with Arya killing the entire white walker army in the books if it's written well. A series of events that would logically culminate with that instead of *teleports behind you* "Nothing personal, kid." I'm not going to tell the storyteller how to tell a story, I just hope he does it better than HBO is doing.
