Why is Batman's rogues gallery so much better than other popular superhero's rogues?
Why is Batman's rogues gallery so much better than other popular superhero's rogues?
I like ‘em but it gets tiresome.
Because they were in movies and tv shows.
*because they were in ovies and tv shows A LOT and that let a lot more people flesh them out as opposed to characters like cap'n cold or mxyplkzt who are kind of irrelevant (and mixy just seems like a Q ripoff even though he predates star trek).
Partly because for the first two decades Batman was the only hero to have a stable rogues gallery where the villains were an actual threat. Superman had rogues, but other than Luthor (And the long-dead Ultra Humanite), all of his recurring rogues (Toyman, Prankster, Mxyzptlk, Wolfingham) were played for laughs and sometimes treated as frenemies. Captain Marvel had some good ones, but besides the Sivana family (Who appeared ALL the time), few of them actually recurred apart from team-ups or big arcs like The Monster of Society of Evil. Wonder Woman's villains usually got a big build up, then disappeared for years outside of things like the Villainy Inc story. Most of the Injustice Society members only appeared a handful of times too. Solomon Grundy appeared only 4 times, The Mist only two, The Shade only once.
Batman's villains though? Joker (48 stories not counting cameos), Penguin (27) and Catwoman (12) appeared all the time and had lots of flashbacks and cameos. They were all on equal footing with Batman because they had no powers. Even Two-Face (7 appearances counting the impostor stories) made for some memorable covers and clearly made an impression on fans for writers to keep referencing him even after years of reformation. Combine that with all the times they were copied by rival publishers (Even by DC itself) and the impact grows larger. In Mad Magazine's 'Bat Boy and Rubin' parody in 1954, the only other characters besides Batman and Robin to be referenced are Joker and Penguin. Even then, Batman's villains were a selling point.
what comic is this from?
>so much better
The absolute STATE of Batfags
That silly little trick known as "character work." See, the writers of Batman didn't just work on Batman and his pals. They really dug deep and gave their villains complete back stories and vivid personalities. I am aware of no other product that has done such a thorough job of fleshing out its antagonists. Thus, every challenge presented to Batman goes beyond the surface level and brings a different perspective to the story.
There alot more memorable and it helps that alot of them have been featured in other media like the shows and other DC series like suicide squad
Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey miniseries.
Don't get too excited, it's shit. Conner and Palmiotti.
That's just the thing, though. If Bat Man has the dark, brooding man in a three piece suit/bat costume who is on a revenge quest due to trauma, DC already has that angle covered. They are not forced to go in new directions. They could do a story about Bruce Wayne vs The Stuffy Squares In Black Suits With Sharp Edges, but thankfully they didn't. They are instead FREE to go in new directions. The other problem plaguing super human stories, which Batman deftly avoids, is the Deus Ex Machina problem. When you grant any number of characters God Tier powers, you have to explain why they don't use them all the time to win fights. This can really slow down a story and no excuse is ever quite believable. Where is their limitless energy coming from? How often can they unleash super powers before needing rest? Some of those super humans seem to never tire out. Why haven't they taken over large parts of the world? Giving your characters too much power like that strains belief and feels cheap after just a few stories. With the Batman characters, they have no such luxuries. Even the villains have been through Hell, chewed up, spit out, kicked when they were down and left for dead. The pain they carry can be seen in the evil they inflict, whether for revenge or pleasure. This makes the Batman Universe much more believable and more chilling. You don't have to suspend as much disbelief.
Right up until he interacts with literally anyone else in the Justice League.
Batman is at his best when he's the World's Greatest Detective, not a Cosmic-Tier Planner.
Yeah. Batman in his own universe with no cross overs and no super humans, is the fun Batman.
Because they are themed-mobsters/terrorists instead of supervillains, makes them more fun
Reminds me of the CatwomanxRiddler fic where all the rogues had chilled out somewhat.
Well there's Spiderman bad guys.
honestly not a bad ship, they have some fun interactions
plus the idea of someone like him cucking Bats is funny as hell
Why do so many of his villains wear suits?
>Joker - purple zoot suit
>Riddler - wacky green suit
>Penguin - tuxedo
It's like hey, Bayman is a millionaire, let's make all his foes businessmen.
The Joker was created in 1940 when zoot suits were a standard gangster look, Penguin is supposed to be a caricature of a wealthy man (jokes about tuxedos looking like penguin stomachs predate the character) and Riddler didn't get a business suit until the Adam West show, it was originally just a leotard, but the business suit Gorshin wore in downtime scenes looked so cool the comics eventually used it.
Flash’s rogues are better.
I love this artist's stuff
Plus the Dick Tracy angle.
Why do you ask?
Came here to say these.
Who is he?
What people don't respect is that in the 1930's gangsters really looked like this.
Flash’s aren’t remotely close.
Spiderman’s takes a second place with a lot of memorable villains.
If I was to pick a third place, it’d be the X-men’s villains.
And the reason for all of those ones succeeding where others failed is part-and-parcel with their popularity. Successful heroes means more comics and more material to flesh out characters and improve the ones that stick.
Fantastic 4 and Superman are exceptions to this however - they have 1-2 main villains who are very well developed and liked, but the rest of the time they fought one-offs or joke characters, which didn’t leave an impact.
because they had simply but flexible gimics.
You can do a lot of shit with Harveys duality schtik
You can do a lot with a guy who riddles
You can do a lot with someone whos whole thing is jokes
They are just ripe for easy story/plot creation. Probably goes back to the detective stories liniage of detective work so you wanted something that could regularly offer new bit sized conflicts you could come up with in a week. ANd the thing is, you dont have to think about some power that might be an easy out for most of them, or some complex backstory to remember.
you're talking about a comic that features a grown ass man dressing up as a bat, how could he face anyone actually SANE
Paula von Gunther was WW's most popular foe in the Golden Age, and the end of WW2 meant she was off the table.
Influence has seen some shit.
Golden Age Wonder Woman. Pretty much all of Diana's major foes, and some of her minor ones, had full backstories, motivation, and characterization. The difference is that Diana got saddled with Kanigher putting in minimal effort for 30 years, while Batman's rogues got all their development right when the comic market exploded in the 70s and 80s.
> Fantastic 4 and Superman are exceptions to this however - they have 1-2 main villains who are very well developed and liked, but the rest of the time they fought one-offs or joke characters, which didn’t leave an impact
F4 and Superman have some of the most iconic villains
Problem is we barely talk about them AS F4 and Superman villains because they’re so universal
There is Lex and Doom, but there is also Darkseid and Galactus. There is Bizarro and Super-Skrull and Brainiac, which are constantly present in Marvel Lore.
Always kinda felt poison ivy was a bit out of place becaus eof this. shes really the only common batman characters with super powers. I mean, you got freeze, but thats more a suit. And someone like killer croc or man bat are just strong mutants. Ivy always seemed like the odd one out that "stepped over the line" into powers territory.
Penguin isn't insane in most instances so it's just mafiosos.
x-men villains are better. some of the spider man villains are better, like venom and morbius. carnage is the poster child for chaotic evil aesthetic.
poison ivy is wasted by not doing shit with swamp-thing, aquaman and maybe floronic man doing eco-terrorist shit and stopping corporate pollution
man-bat is wasted potential. i honestly like man-bat more than batman
I like Spider-Man’s villains and Superman’s villains more than Batman’s
Brainiac, Bizarro, Darkseid, Green Goblin, Doctor Octopus, Kraven, are all GOATED in my opinion
What fucking Marvel villain meets that description?
Its tumblr, they make their own reality to make their logic seem reasonable
>Influence has seen some shit.
Yeah, Mrs. Prunceface.
That's because she didn't start with powers, and even when they started moving her in that direction it was much more low-key and closer to mad science. Then at some point they made her Swamp Thing for people too insecure to fap to Swamp Thing.
>local child-eating monster from Balkan folklore finds new purpose in life as gangster moll
How come Spidey doesn't have good villainess like Ivy or Catwoman (Not counting black cat since she's just a catwoman knockoff)
Is Catwoman still considered part of the rogues gallery or is she not evil enough for that?
>R1DDLE ME THIS, MY [Little] [[BIG SHOT!]]
>WHO'S IN [Control] BUT CLAIMS THEY'RE [Not]?
>WHO RIGS THE [Banks] AND OWNS ALL THE [Bucks]
>AND LABELS YOU BIGOT WH3n YOU GIVE A %$@?
And yet they constantly overuse the joker and treat the others as canon fodder thats utterly inferior to godwank joker in every way.
I actually gotta know who the fuck this bastard is now that has such massive balls to shittalk them like that.
There just aren't that many great female villains in general. Batman is a little better about it than a lot of media.
On the subject, one of my favorites parts of Into the Spider-verse was fem Ock.
The Kingpin, depending on the suit colour.
Kingpin wears white suis that's his thing
Gorr the God Butcher
That minotaur who ran Roxxon until Xemnu killed him
It's simply a popularity snowball effect / feedback-loop. Batman was one of DC's first and most popular superheroes. Being such a long-running character there's been a lot of crappy villains everyone forgets about. The better villains have also been refined over time from experimentation. A lot of crossovers with other heroes and their villains (Brave and the Bold) in an attempt to boost the popularity of the other characters by teaming them with Batman. The problem is that due to how enormous Batman is, it doesn't uplift the other intellectual property as it does *stick* to Batman. Solomon Grundy is a good example because he's a Green Lantern villain, but doesn't work nearly as well as a Green Lantern Corps villain as he did the Alan Scott GL he was made for, but due to his recurring appearance in Batman adaptations he might become more permanently associated with Batman.
Fundamentally, for two reasons:
1) Batman himself is weaker than other superheroes, to the point he barely qualifies -- witness infinite Justice League jokes etc. Batman is really much more akin to pulp heroes like Doc Savage, The Shadow and even Dick Tracy (also notable for villains). This means that as others have pointed out he can have enemies who are just mobsters and psychos and yet they can simultaneously much more easily be legitimate threats, which makes the antagonists seem cooler than if they're just some dumdum smashing himself against the invulnerable Superman's fists.
2) Batman's whole setup is super gothic and arguably even edgy in the Kane/Finger era, which provides an easy formula for colorful enemy hooks -- evil clown thief/murderer depending on era, suave but weird-looking mobster, guy driven to insanity by his own mutilation, evil genius mad scientist turning retards into giants and so on. You can't really do this type of shit the same way for most superheroes because their environment/atmosphere isn't as consistently drafted -- Wonder Woman's is, but the theming is Ancient Greece so she can just have Harryhausen rejects essentially.
Also, like Batman generally a fuckload of Batman's villains are just plain goofy and people simply leave them behind the couch when they say the rogues' gallery is great. Riddler, Calendar Man? What the actual fuck.
>Riddler, Calendar Man? What the actual fuck.
hey hey hey
Riddler is based
If the spiderman is gonna wear black...
>who the hell are you?
Forgot the image
F4 and Superman villains were so good they got boosted up to setting-wide threats.
Doesn't that have more to do with how powerful they are? Most Batman villains would make no sense as setting-wide threats
Well that's the issue really. They've become less of "Rouge's Gallery" villains and more "Oh shit it's time to call in 40 different people for a crossover event" villains.
That hasn't happened at nearly the same extent to the joker - for him it's still a personal thing for batman most of the time
I agree with you! Brainiac, for example, as the guy the entire League fights isn't nearly interesting-he can operate on that level fine, but all the fun character work comes out when its just Clark and Dox being an unstoppable force and immovable object at each other.
People have legit forgotten HOW personal the Skrulls are for the F4, especially Johnny, who was raped and gaslit by them, and Sue, who lost her father to them and once contemplated wiping the green bastards out for good. The fact that Johnny and Sue had nothing to do during Secret Invasion is shocking.