Relational ontology truly has it all. A relation is a "betweeness" between things, of which things themselves are comprised; the "thing-in-itself" of an object is its relationship to everything else. The domain of the relational has ultimate closure, leaving nothing out of its domain of discourse, including nothing itself as absence is a relationship. There is no more encompassing domain because such a domain is a relation to the relational, and so is included within the domain of the relational; to put this another way it has the ability for self-talk and recursion.
This is relevant to the thread because of the centrality of recursion and organic philosophy to Yuk Hui's new book "Recursivity and Contingency" and in the concept of rhizome Deleuze and Guattari were describing the relational domain. I'm still reading Hui's book and if you're at all interested in the themes of this thread it's highly recommended.
So the language of relations is a "universal language" of metaphysics. "Everything is related." What is the big deal? Relations don't exist in themselves but are always in reference to a perspective, and so perspectivism becomes central to this metaphysical investigation. This leads back into the immanent domain of our conscious experience: our perception of reality, with the nature of reality being relational change.
The fundamental "betweeness" of relational change is two perspectival reference frames of change: the cumulative and the instantaneous, corresponding physically to time and space. These are reference frames because each pole has itself as the fixed point of reference, and is a view of change in the other from itself.
The mode of the instantaneous is "present mindedness" cultivated via mindfulness mediation and other practices, and in this mode a singular omnipresent experimental moment is the fixed point of reference, with experienced change being instantaneous change in this ever-present. This is the mode of becoming, the flowing of all things through this moment.
The mode of the cumulative is the mode of causal efficacy and temporal sequence, with the linear structure of time being the fixed point of reference, and experienced change cumulative change through time. This mode is cultivated via language skills (i.e. "reason") and is anticipatory: it predicts the past and future and effectively acts according to it. This is the mode of being, as persistence through time is required to make any sense of the temporal whatsoever, with accidental change relating to what persists or is predictable, with time itself the substance of substance.
Jack Ward
The description of these two modes as reference frames of each other places neither as prior to the other, both mutually necessary fundamental betweenesses of the nature of change itself. Its necessity is seen in calculus, the mathematical study of change, with integration (cumulative change) and differentiation (instantaneous change) being inverse operations of the same process. In Difference and Repetition Deleuze realizes this relationship, associating his concept of difference with differential calculus.
The Problem of the modern world (it's trajectory towards omnicide) is caused by catastrophically anti-creative practices that have their roots in the integralist mechanicism of the Cartesian Era that while overturned in the sciences have persisted in our technological praxis. Yuk Hui's examination of organicism and organology in relation to the question of technology in the 21st century is right where the money is. Deleuze's work was very much about trying to advance perspectives out of totalizing Cartesian mechanicism.
Another very relevant read is Terrence Deacon's "Incomplete Nature" which examines among other things the concept of the absential: "The paradoxical intrinsic property of existing with respect to something missing, separate, and possibly nonexistent. Although this property is irrelevant when it comes to inanimate things, it is a defining property of life and mind; elsewhere (Deacon 2005) described as a constitutive absence." A great book to read along with this is Douglas Hofstadter's "I Am a Strange Loop" which advances towards a process-relational theory of cognition, again with the concept of recursion (strange loopiness) central to the book, whereas Deacon's work emphasizes contingency. Even the covers of these two books have a spooky resemblance to each other.
This is ok, but there are a few problems with it. Thinking in terms of systems doesn't mean those systems have to be nice, for instance. Also, capitalism is a good idea and not a bad one, and people are too imperfect to live up to it. But future "capitalism" will necessarily be a compromise between altering people to live up to capitalism and altering capitalist theory to live up to reality.
Jack Sullivan
>is hyperstition just a bastardized magic? FTFY
Carson Walker
>THOSE WEREN'T REAL HUMANS! KYSs
Charles Reyes
Where's the lie?
Grayson Reyes
You're still alive.
Oliver Price
Your post doesn't say anything, it's little more than a textual upvote for capitalism.
Angel Brooks
It does say something, just not a lot. And if you really cared you could read my blog I suppose, but you don't so I won't bother linking it.
Do you guys think A Thousand Plateau would be a good book for a dude that is losing his mind? I have this friend that always had some mildy personality disorders but it wasn't nothing really worrying. People just thought he was a cheeky asshole. Lately, his situation suddenly worsened. He became severely paranoid, he thinks "the secret services" are going to kill him, he takes notes in a hieroglyphics only he understands, and he is getting himself in actual trouble because he attacked some random ppl he thought they were following him or some shit. He's a step from the psychiatric ward but since he likes reading and taking those ciphered notes, I was thinking maybe such an intense book would overwhelm and stabilize him. Is it a good idea?
Dylan Martin
ffs Nick Land somehow manages to regress even further into teenagesque edge with every tweet
That's a privilege living in Shanghai affords. You can antisemitic shitpost to your heart's content with no real repercussion.
Andrew Long
uh potentially dangerous (to state bodies) since he seems to insist on specific narratives - ie the danger of reading literally. However, it may be that ATP can help him understand the inconsistencies between what he is communicating/experiencing and how his environment and self respond to those things. But it really might end up intensifying the 'the secret services' shit because of the anti-fascist running streak. If you take it too seriously it just inverts back into fascism and misses the whole delicate balancing and exciting dancing.
It's like he realized the Marxist explanation was wrong, so he immediately jumped onto the simplest, most brainlet, right-wing explanation that presented itself.
although he doesnt know which kind of /acc/ the interviewer is referring to so he kind of tries to address them both
Christian Peterson
girard-fag i am doing this ritual with hopes u see this
what do you think about the fact that jews are effectively a scapegoat in the bible? also have u ever thought about writing a piece that unironically combines jordan peterson and girard?
>girard-fag i am doing this ritual with hopes u see this it's super effective
also in case anyone was wondering i was served with a week-long ban for using a proxy server back in April. it has now passed, but the timing of it was kind of hilarious. anyways
>what do you think about the fact that jews are effectively a scapegoat in the bible? i've read this criticism before and my feeling is that it is probably legit. to my mind it doesn't take any shine off of Girard as a thinker for this also to be the case. he credits Christianity with helping him work out scapegoat theory, which still holds. that Christianity itself has and no doubt will continue to produce more scapegoats in the future is sadly inevitable, perhaps, but ultimately it also shows the utility of the concept also. i don't think the fact that scapegoating also applies to the mater system too shows that somehow it doesn't add up, it shows how effective it is!
>also have u ever thought about writing a piece that unironically combines jordan peterson and girard? JBP can do that himself. i'd be more inclined to compare Girard and Eastern nondual stuff instead. i'm going back and re-reading a bunch of Wilber stuff as well, i've always liked his work and found it agrees with my own worldview. people fight and they don't know why, or they do know but can't seem to figure out what makes conflicts intractable. and in which one can wield Land as a beatstick to talk about what happens when we can't figure out what the fuck we're so angry about.
>April sorry. January, but went into effect in April.
Sebastian Howard
if i read every urbanomic,ccru,land,hui book will I be set on my cybernetic facism? I suppose from there branching out would be easy and also reading blogs and essays associated?
Dylan Edwards
>will I be set on my cybernetic facism? do you want cybernetic fascism? that's not Yuk Hui's goal. and even Land doesn't ultimately want that, i don't think. could be that i'm projecting, true, or that i have a weird desire to put white hats on people who may not even want them, but still.
Land is basically looking at humans playing around with capital and thinking they can control it like you would if you were in the middle ages and watching people thinking they can run safe experiments on the Black Death (and with that level of understanding of viruses). in other words, it's going to get complicated, and disappoint many well-intentioned types. i don't think he's rooting for the Black Death itself, more like saying that trying to understand it in terms other than what it is telling you about the world is an exercise doomed to futility.
thanks girard-man >and in which one can wield Land as a beatstick lol i really wish someone did a full out analysis of how land became what he is today
Josiah Kelly
o i know the category is not some soley hyper-capitalized technological fascism singularity stereotype I know it covers a wide variety of concepts in the philosophy of technology but I was just wondering,considering urbanomic is the leading publisher for these sorts of books, if I buy out their shop I should be set no?
I know Yuk Hui is more based around philosophy of technology Land is the observer of hyper capitalism etc etc To put these people ina single category would be nothing but a disservice to them
Christopher Gomez
>thanks girard-man my pleasure
>lol i really wish someone did a full out analysis of how land became what he is today i can imagine few things i would like to read more honestly. people are likely to get him as wrong with the dumbest and most reductive possible readings, which is a scandal and embarassment that happens time and again. if you traveled back in time to the 1920s and all you knew about Nietzsche was Just Crush Everything That Stands In Your Way you would think this was a very foolish philosopher indeed. in the 1980s Baudrillard was the poster-child for obscurantist postmodernism, when the fact is that he understood exactly where the culture of simulation was going to go and it *bothered the shit out of him.* but people read his stuff and conclude that he must have fucking loved it all - after all, his stuff is hard to read...it's so fucking stupid. and the same happens with *lots* of philosophers. even Foucault, who gets blamed for everything, and whose critique of neoliberalism as soft fascism *ought* to well and truly be a godsend for everyone who hates the bullshit era we are living through...but no...
it's the same thing with Land. posting crusty drunk uncle shit on Twitter doesn't help his case, but still. we read his stuff and we don't like the conclusions that he comes to, but...so what? we can disagree. everyone comes to their own opinions in their own way. Land is a provocateur in many ways, and he's also a fucking genius. nobody else could have written the BTC book and the BTC book is fucking outstanding. so's lots of other stuff he writes.
>if I buy out their shop I should be set no? meh, maybe. you can read Heidegger, Norbert Wiener, Simondon, Brassier, Deleuze...it's all part of a big beautiful horror story.
>I know Yuk Hui is more based around philosophy of technology Land is the observer of hyper capitalism etc etc To put these people ina single category would be nothing but a disservice to them yes, and YH also disagrees with Land on some key stuff too. which is interesting, because Land is in many ways trying to carve out that teeny tiny little place in philosophy somewhere that isn't always-already ruthlessly capitalized...but pretty much at this point i think he's told us what we need to hear. what the next chapter will be? nobody knows. my guess is something like a century of restless cold civil war, but i hope i'm wrong...
/pol/ is a legion of uncultured swine, they wouldn't understand the sheer idea of acceleration and it's theory
Charles Young
>it's theory WOAH
Owen Cox
entertain my wilful philistinism: what are the practical uses of reading nick land / which specific and immanent-or-present phenomena does it aid the understanding of?
i'm not specifically saying it's meaningless or anything, i'm just kind of in the position of reading and not knowing why, unaware whether i'm readying theory-fiction or fiction-theory. it's a lot more out there than say k-punk in terms of a relation to traditional and comprehensible politics and philosophy from what i've read so far, but that may just be due to my past grounding.
>what are the practical uses of reading nick land / which specific and immanent-or-present phenomena does it aid the understanding of? i can tell you what made him attractive to me: feeling as though something was really fucking wrong with deconstruction and irony. i don't know if that's a practical use, but that's at least what made him interesting to me. i also had just gotten through Heidegger and was 100% sold on all things Dasein, that the history of 20C philosophy was closely intertwined with technology, how this affected human beings, much much else. Heidegger suggested to me something beyond the Spectacle and simulation, and Land added whole other wings onto the house that Martin built - computers, finance, AI, lots of other stuff. if those questions are interesting to you Land will appeal. if none of that stuff is interesting to you in the slightest he won't impress so much. it all depends on what you're into and the kinds of questions and interests you have.
As if self talk and recursion did not ultimately close itself off, like a chatbot repeating "nigger" cus Yea Forums kept screaming @ it. Kind of like why going to Yea Forums is "ultimate closure" hence the sissy cage, locking up your penis and closing off your sex.
If relational ontology is so great, it is only because we need to discover the real feeling of being stuck in a loop. Like an acid trip where you repeat an action ten times ten. Unfortunately that's what everyone feels schizophrenic; or more like disconnected (again? again?), and so we drill into the same binary repeat, but we just kinda turn off.
Leo Rogers
just LARP about nick land honestly. don't have a fucking clue what the cunt is on about
Gavin Perry
>Neuroses and schizophrenitization of catgirl cosplay culminates in ontogenetical genitalia generalized as ass assemblages. Pornographic transgression transhuman transmission runs along the fault lines of the body of technocaptital. Hauntological compression condenses coagulation of labour-time among the streetcorners streetwalking alley cat spectacles speculating ontological presuppositions of a teleoplexic thing. All androgynous aphrodisiacs for consumption in the urchin black hole of anarchocapitalist destratification (and pay now for a private show, ect.). Back room dealings delta one zero only zoroastrian light dark dusk dressed in pixelated censorbars input: incest Oedipus necrophilic Antigone; antagonizing the topology of socio-economic rhizomes (intensity approaching null). The pervert is marked only by the negation of repression, regret, reterritorialization – there are no more perverts in cyberspace. Castrate the Lacanian Other in your life for three easy payments of thirty three thirty three. Dial tone radiation wavers anti-telephonic. Diagrams of catgirl cosplay tell the real story (circuit mappings (find the short for a quick fuck)). Enzymes eat eat exotropic observation con conserve sublate and remap the territory. Rectal reverberations of the erection undergo teleonomic replicuntion under the guise of anonymous-becoming; rule 34 codes for libinially traded k-pulp. Yea Forums seives. Anime has always been real.
Charles Fisher
What does this new, second iteration of the Chinese Social Credit System mean for its success and continued use? It's really frightening stuff, but worse still, I almost think its better to be as transparent as they are with it. It's not like people in the West aren't affected by our own more subtle way of doing it.
Hunter Nguyen
Is writing like cyberpunk joyce a fundamental part of land's philosophy or it's just a meme? Has he wrote about his ideas like a normal person?
Jace Phillips
if you read the first essay (or any of the early ones) in Fanged Noumena you'll see that he is perfectly capable of writing an academic paper in regular prose.
Ian Wright
Can you pinpoint which essay he goes from coherent academic to amphetamine-fueled schizo, and if so, which one?
Caleb Collins
In Fanged Noumena it's probably Circutries where he goes off a cliff; about the halfway point. He has shit together by the end too, there's really only a handful of essays in the second half that are full schizo
Circuitries or Meltdown, both of which are some of his best ones. after that the later essays are goofy weirdness. Transcendental Miserabilism is good.
if anything i'd say it was Thirst For Annihilation where he just let his shit go completely.
Is this guy doing a bad impression of obtuse 20th century French philosophers
Ayden Bell
Where does Adorno fit in /acc/?
Hudson King
he doesn't really have a direct fit as far as i can tell, given that Land-brand /acc stuff is mostly there as a response to what he himself hath wrought on the world in the form of critical theory.
which by itself wouldn't be a bad thing if its major contribution to thought in the 21C will be that large swathes of mankind is a species of schizo cannibal werewolf who is going to go utterly insane dealing with the consequences of postmodernity. other than that he's pretty cool
Luke Morales
Girard fc'sag, I am currently reading that George P. Morgan book The Human Predicament: Dissolution and Wholeness that I scanned many months ago, and it is quite something else. So far, he has mapped out how we have lost our trust in reason, language, culture, and each other, and not just on the spiritual dimension. Morgan doesn't go into the Traditionalist autism and is very refreshing to read. I highly suggest you take the time to read it when available.
Levi Thomas
bump
Logan Lopez
thank you for the reminder user, i'll take a look at it again. i often feel as though it will be sanity and madness that will be the frontiers, and not space. that the rage and the anger comes as a result, perhaps, of losing those dimensions we need to orient ourselves, the sense of future and past. wasn't it like this back in the 15C? back then you could flee to the New World, if one was so inclined. these things are interesting parallels to me...
good lord we are going to live through some interesting times going forward.
indeed, even if Kant is right about the necessity of time and space...what happens when you collapse these things? when space is destroyed by crowds and media, when the future and the past are dissolved by immanence and technology? Hegel understood a lot of stuff, it's true, but -
we're going to have to find some way to live with what we have unearthed. a new Thirty Years' War over all things socialist is going to look like the answer for people who can't see the forest for the trees. what comes after Wokeness? that's the thing. nothing ever has, when the stakes are eschatology or bust. but it's not really that way, and the attraction of fighting Wars For The Dawn diminishes somewhat when you realize that life is going to have to go on, and the rage zombies too...i admire anyone who can see the writing on the wall and isn't losing their shit completely. maybe it was like this in the dark ages too, i don't know.
after all the fragmentation, that life indeed does in fact need to be a whole in order to have some kind of consciousness of itself which befits it...
after all of the fragmentation, it's going to be an amusing moment to realize that, yeah, uh...turns out we actually do need to be human beings after all. what the fuck were we doing? like a great fever dream breaking...
