HOMER WAS A SHITLORD

>thinking sexism as a term holds any epistemological or ontological value

It's a word solely used for social signalling. If you ever use the word sexism in the first or second degree you're an idiot stuck watching the circus.

No it doesn't.

it's the same synt. structure as "A man got to eat."

this, but ironically

But there are no terms in The Odyssey that are sexist to begin with...

That's what she's saying, judging by the tweet

no they don't

Yes I do

Anglo women are the fucking worse.

>age like dogs
>spew feminist bullshit
>ruin politics and business for everyone
>coquettish af and will divorce you

Idr any sexist terms in the lattimore translation

>Tell me about a complicated man.

The very first line, and she lost the poetry and half the meaning of it.

Damn, I didn't know Elon Musk knew Homeric Greek and translated the Odyssey! That man can do anything!

I mean, she looks like a man but definitely not like musk.

this is true though

retard.

cringe

No it isn’t. That grammatically incorrect without has because you’ve used two different fucking tenses where the original phrase used one.

Makes you think

Attached: sluts.jpg (625x810, 133K)

Based greeks

>made sexists translation choice
I can imagine the translators saying "I'm gonna add some sexism here, here and here. Also, time denigrate one of the goddess here and praise this god (because he is a male) in this part".

Based academic pedant

Attached: based.jpg (790x352, 115K)

So they’re mad that a 2700 year old book doesn’t conform to 21st century feminist neoliberalist world views? And the solution is to change the scene away from what the author intended?

OP can't read

Anachronisms are soundly condemned when they reinforce perilous notions. When the source material threatens to undermine fashionable ideas, anachronisms are overlooked, or even embraced.

This basic hypocrisy has gone unexplored.

Consider Assassin's Creed Odyssey--a video game set in ancient Greece. Young scholars were genuinely effusive about the historical accuracy of the geography and architecture; all while overlooking the game's treatment of homosexuality or female mercenaries.

The social justice academics are just another group willing to promote falsehoods about the past to further ideological goals.

People quibble over translations all the time but multiple translations translating to the point of injecting misogyny into what was a highly misogynistic culture?

If you want to take issue with Homer fine, but don't go after the translators just because you liked the original but don't like where it leads.

I don't get it. She is saying
>when it isn't there in the Greek
but people here in this thread seem to be ignoring this?

teaching women to read was a mistake

Thanks for your opinion; back to youtube cringe compilations now

Her whole fckin point is that Homer WASNT a shitlord, but that generations of English translators have been.

There are some people who genuinely think greeks were white

I think she wants to make Homer palatable to her own sensibilities. Funnily, I don't think she realizes that that's what she's doing.

She adopts a pose of detachment whereby she can judge other translators for reading modern cultural assumptions into Homer. There may be some truth to all this, but these assumptions (men are strong, sluts are bad, etc.) are often more in tune with Homer than she wants to admit.

A translator brings out the implicit. She blames others for introducing misogyny to Homer, but these people are only making the implicit explicit in the act of translation. They may be in error at times, but there's nothing wrong with adding what "wasn't in the original" when the spirit of the work is preserved.

Tell me about it.

Attached: CxuwjUJXgAArSDD.jpg (1148x465, 95K)

>There are some people who genuinely think greeks were white

Taleb cured me of this.

>not even Rome was safe
>history repeats itself
>I'm stuck in a time warp

You have changed my mind. Well done.

>technology making human connection a luxury
>all live lives of quiet desperation
>only choices are drudgery or suburbia
>nature destroyed

"sjws are the problem"

Greeks weren't white? huh news to me.

what were they? better not be fucking Arabs of some shit.

Greek

Study of the "Classics" as a proffesion has almost always been the realm of well to do fops and girls who have daddies money.

It's no suprise that now culturally most people want to re-write things to suit their current emotional point of view.

It's happened before and will happen again in a different way.

What is she crying about specifically though? Did some translations use the word slut or something about the maids at odysseuses crib or something? Who cares?

For a literature board, ppl here sure dont like to read. Makes u think

>impressionable teenagers
literally nobody has ever read The Odyssey in highschool and thought "Yes, this is relatable. The things that happen in this book are relevant to me and are shaping my worldview."

Don't reply to this thread.

It happened to me!

He hasn't read her translation, he wants to know what was edited in comparison.

I relate to the part about him getting lost going home and constantly going the wrong way. The same thing happened once in a forest when I was younger.

nerds aren't real people

N... nani?
*pushes bridge of glasses*

Because they're forced to slog through it instead of going through it with genuine interest.

A passage about the maids has literally been posted in this very thread lmao

Ah, in an image.

What a fucking joke.

are modern Greeks ethnically similar (or the same) to Ancient Greeks? and they had white skin didn't they. so does that not make them white? obviously they weren't Nordic or Celtic, but they were still under the umbrella of European races.
the best races.

Dumb troll. Stop posting.

> Americans

Attached: lucky_star_laugh.png (1153x1621, 303K)

>are modern Greeks ethnically similar (or the same) to Ancient Greeks?
They have a large heritage with them but they're not "pure" so to speak.

>obviously they weren't Nordic or Celtic, but they were still under the umbrella of European races.
Correct.

>the best races.
Depends on what you mean by "best".

Or maybe it's because we can't even relate with people two or three years younger than us in highschool, let alone a dead man from a dead civilization who spoke and wrote in a dead language thousands of years ago. I don't know why kids aren't taught Tristan and Isolde or the Mabinogion or any of the stories that can actually be tied to modern literature.

No

If you think people cant relate to something bc a dead guy wrote it why are you in the literature board lmao

>r maybe it's because we can't even relate with people two or three years younger than us in highschool, let alone a dead man from a dead civilization who spoke and wrote in a dead language thousands of years ago.
I wasn't a sociopath in Highschool so I can't comment on that mindset.

Based and Camattepilled

Based Ted poster

I'M NOT TROLLING YOU FUCKING RETARD I'M ASKING SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THE GREEK RACE! GET OF THIS FUCKING THREAD YOU ABSOLUTE KEK!

Lol.

yeah I'm just trolling when I say best.

but Greeks are still white though right? or I guess that just depends on your definition of white. a lot of people don't consider Jews to be white. I just consider people who have white skin to be white. exemptions to people with conditions such as albinism.

The Odyssey is overblown, middling literature that's only studied because it survived, not because of its literary worth. Ancient works are important for our understanding of history and ancient cultures, but if you honestly believe that the story of Odysseus is anything more than the novelty of still existing, you're deluded. And even if it was, in its time, monumental, you'll never read it with the eyes of its intended audience.
It's not unreasonable to suggest that an ancient text loses its artistic worth with the death of the civilization that wrote it. If you're teaching history, teach The Odyssey, but it's not good literature.

Who will teach your sons to read?

>but Greeks are still white though right?
For the most part, yes.

>a lot of people don't consider Jews to be white
They aren't, they're semetic, specifically they're a distinct subgroup of Semites.

if it's good enough for william fucking blake, it's good enough for me

We were talking about its relatability to high school kids and now youre on some schizophrenic rant about its artistic merit. Youre wrong about both things fwiw but you need to brush up on your communication skills

but some Jews have white skin? black people just see them as white due to white privilage. and say they get the same treatment as Western white people.

the worst part about reading stuff like this now is that i have a hard time believing it's not satire. like that line about about impressionable teens

Dummy.

>black people just see them as white due to white privilage. and say they get the same treatment as Western white people.
See, if you'd made it this obvious from the start I wouldn't have bothered, good job.

Didn't Robert Graves believe that Homer had only authored the Iliad and that the Odyssey was authored much later by a woman?

What if her name was Homera like Homura from Madoka Shoujou Magicka so Homer was actually a cute anime girl?

>"You've made some bold choices with your translations, haven't you?"
>"Yes, quite bold," she says. "For example sea, thalassa, is a feminine noun. This is something entirely missed by previous translators, who have traditionally been men. So when the Greek soldiers complete their journey back home, to the Black Sea, the previous translations were unanimous in having them cry 'The sea! The sea!' Whereas I've chosen to have them say, 'Female Body of Water! Female Body of Water!'"

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You're right, the Iliad is better.

La mer ! La mer !
She's based.

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Genius

made what obvious? lol I don't believe in white privilage. but non-whites do. and they see Jews as the same as Western whites.

I do agree that The Iliad is a much better piece of literature than The Odyssey.

No we don't.
Jews are much smarter than whites which is why we accept them as occidental Asians (where civilization began).

Okay let’s read Joe the Plumber’s translation of the Iliad then. I’ll wait.

Pointing out that people in academia tend to be privileged as a way to discredit them is so strange coming from the right.

>immediately jumps to "HE'S DISSING MY LEFT WING HOMIES" when no mention of political leanings was brought up
Pretty telling user.

Oh okay Mr. user who is totally not generally triggered by anything labeled feminist. Pointing out that people in academia tend to be privileged isn’t a valid criticism of their work no matter who you are. Hope I didn’t create too much work for your therapist.

Lmao faggots on Yea Forums will still defend this too

can't tell who is right or wrong in this exchange but you write like a broad so post your feet

I’m interested to see some examples.
>inb4 that the cyclops is oppressed

Please tell me how she’s wrong. Upsetting your comfy notion of what academia should be like doesn’t count.

here's the link to that tweet, for those interested in the video:
twitter.com/Channel4News/status/995659330581123072
>visible
>misogynies

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I'm not him, I just think it's indicative of your ideological loyalties.

>Oh okay Mr. user who is totally not generally triggered by anything labeled feminist.
I just see it as a warning label, if anything.

>Hope I didn’t create too much work for your therapist.
I don't need to see a therapist after having an internet argument like you do, sweetie.

>Please tell me how she’s wrong.
See

>after having an internet argument like you do
What? Not the person you're responding to but write coherently. You don't win arguments having bad syntax.

U can't
T not OP

Read a little between the lines or alternatively read the other posts

Shut
The
Fuck
Up

>english men are all misogynistic shitlords
Ugh.
What else is new?

All we have left is a history where things were once better. Now these people want to erase that history and replace it with a narrative where everything was as brainwashed and shitty as it is today.

>What? Not the person you're responding to, but write coherently. You don't win arguments having bad syntax.
ftfy

>be man
>translate classical text
>do it a lot without expecting special credit or recognition
>accept that yours is one among many
>do this for centuries, with dignity

>be woman
>translate classical text AS A WOMAN, FOR WOMEN
>I'M A WOMAN, HERE! WOMAN COMIN' THROUGH! DID YOU FORGET ABOUT US, US WOMEN? HUH? I'M A WOMAN, AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO IGNORE THAT ANY LONGER!
>NOTICE ME, A WOMAN, AS A WOMAN!
>I AM THE HERO WOMANKIND NEEDS! MY TRANSLATION IS THE MOST REVOLUTIONARY BECAUSE INSTEAD OF A PENIS I HAD A VAGINA WHILE I TRANSLATED IT!

/thread

Terrible argument. She clearly thinks they were mistaken about what was implicit, not that they shouldn’t have sought it.

>All we have left is a history where things were once better
Oh no no no no AHAHAHAA

>be woman
>get phd in classics from reputable university
>have interesting perspective on translation issues
>also have well-founded support for those claims
>NEETs clearly more knowledgeable than you

I would smash her pusy so hard in a completely mutual and sexually appreciative way. It would be an attempt to translate pure women respecting emotions into an act of sexually fulfilling equality, it would probably be impossible as I am inherently a selfish man, but I would attempt to bring her to orgasm at the exact moment of my own ejaculation so that we could meld into the post-nuptial idea of one body. Where emotions are so indistinguishable that our flesh practically becomes one.

>A history where things were once better
For fucking who? I can't read a novel from the 18th century without thinking about the urine all over everybody's fancy clothes or the lice in their wigs. More alcoholics with syphilis and wooden teeth.

Hi.

No one cares.

I feel bad for actual respectable female classicists. This was one of the better contemporary translations I've looked it but every article i read about it puts so much emphasis about it being translated by a woman.

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Homer wasn't a feminist so her translations are inaccurate. Homer wasn't trying to put more blame on the women or less because they were females. That's not a concept he was working with because privilege wasn't a concept.

>She clearly thinks they were mistaken about what was implicit, not that they shouldn’t have sought it.
She put the literal translation in without consideration for what the implicit was.

>things were once better
Shut the fuck up boomer

She didn't translate it so that the women don't get hanged. she just changed the word "sluts" to "female slaves." It's not like the sexist parts are omitted or anything. She's just promoting her translation, and being competitive and you're making a big fucking deal about it.

Homer wasnt an anglo so all the white british male translations are innaccurate

Why not use concumbine?

So no one has translated the Odyssey since the 1800s? No one in the 1960s-1970s thought that could be an interesting paper? She's only the first to do it? It's Channel 4 news ffs.

Are you guys still angry about this? Every new major translation tries to justify itself with something like this and "I think the classic translators projected sexism" is fine as long as it's not one of those "and let's make it prose" translations.

>Homer wasn't trying to put more blame on the women or less because they were females. That's not a concept he was working with because privilege wasn't a concept.

Homer didn’t need a concept of privilege to put more or less blame on the women though. He just needed a concept of what a woman’s nature and role is.

>without consideration for what the implicit was.
Blatantly untrue. Her argument is that certain turns of phrase in English simply are not good translations and were instead used because they suited the attitudes of the translators. She’s very upfront about the fact that translators make choices, herself included.

They're not Odysseus's concubines, they are the house slaves, and they're being hanged for sleeping with the suitors. Wilson's translation also uses the word "slave" more than other popular translations, as opposed to "servant" or "girl."

Oops. My mistake. I haven't read the odyssey in like a decade.

The greeks hated women so much they invented pederasty.

Easy mistake

" It offers not just a new version of the poem, but a new way of thinking about it in the context of gender and power relationships today. As Wilson puts it, “the question of who matters is actually central to what the text is about.”"

I don't know who you're trying to kid

So we should rewrite the story because a feminist wants to?

And obviously the attitudes of the men hanging them, too.

You can accomplish that aim with an accurate thoughtful translation and some footnotes, which is exactly what she’s done. I’d be shocked if you’d ever taken a literature class in college, never mind studied it seriously and gotten familiar with the methods.

>rewrite the story
No more than any other translation.

Yes that too.

>Birds are not creatures
Then how are they the most important creatures, hm?
The fact she counts Lombardo with Lattimore and Pope makes me wonder if she's really a translator. Neither Pope nor Lombardo are Homer, though at least Pope is English epic poetry.

This is a really shitty headline to apply to a serious academic. I remember her explaining, off the top of my head, why she chose to translate the nouns describing the bodies of the Sirens in more accurate, less seductive language, restoring some monstrosity to them. I'm disappointed that Yea Forums is memeing on someone genuinely passionate about ancient Greek.

SJWs are footsoldiers of corporate interests, oftentimes directly so, corporate interests have destroyed the world.

Not while being faithful to the work

"“Earlier translators are not as uncomfortable with the text as I am,” she explained to me, “and I like that I’m uncomfortable.” Part of her goal with the translation was to make readers uncomfortable too — with the fact that Odysseus owns slaves, and with the inequities in his marriage to Penelope. "

This is propaganda right out her mouth. It's a reimagining of the story. Quit pretending to be complacent

I would unironically read joe the plumbers translation desu.

Doesn't that suggest that "sluts" might be informed by the previous translators' accurate assessments of the work, rather than their own opinions about women in general?

At a certain point, you're moving from translation to reinterpretation. Why not render "polytropos" as "problematic", because that's what a modern analysis of the man might reveal?

hello. is it me you're looking for?

>>translators in one of the most sexist period of modern history added some of their sexism in a text
Bit of an assumption, and what follows it is inaccurate translation and historical revisionism on two fronts.

Hmmmmm

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It's almost like Yea Forums is full of idiots who can't read

that can't be real

Could be, but it’s arguable and anyone translating the work is going to argue it one way or another.

>propaganda
So she’s duty-bound to smooth over the gaps between a present-day and contemporary reader’s perception of slavery? I’m not sure what precisely you think this translation does wrong. You’re just repeating marketing blurbs.

It's obviously a parody smarts

Do you have any tweets from her about all the homo gay shit translators have left in? Or is that not sexy?

Lol and what happens if the middle age Christian's rewrite it replacing all gods with a singular? I'm sure your ass would get twisted

Not him, but the role of Poseidon in the actual form of the war and return as laid out by Homer has been vastly underestimated even by those who support the horse/earthquake theory.

That would be objectively inaccurate but potentially interesting. Wilson is using arguably accurate language.

... that would be a different fucking word in the Greek, you colossal fuckwit

She has very little to say about homo-eroticism or pederasty, but then these things are though to come into the tradition after the heroic age.

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I agree with the sentiment but suburbia is pretty sweet desu

It wouldn't, really. Use of theos in the text isn't normally applied to any of the pantheon of gods directly, and there are many more allusive names than directly named gods in the text. And since all the genealogies would trade them back to the gods to qualify for the force, it's arguable that anyone in the books is not divinely descended to the same extent as anyone else. Is Heracles more or less godlike than the nymphs that steal Hylas from him? Are Spartans as direct descendants from Heracles more godlike than Hylas who he loved as family?

>suburbia is pretty sweet desu

Until the sprawling infrastructure starts to rot, and there isn't enough money to fix it.

Don't comment on things when you haven't followed the conversation, that's my point.

Yes it would be interesting but it couldn't be called odyssey but an adaptation of it. She just turns scholarly objectivity to propagandic trash. >Arguably
You proved my point

Your point is we should rename him yahweh?

All she did was change the word "sluts" to "slaves" though, without omitting the women's promiscuity. "Slave" is arguably a more accurate translation of that word. Part of Wilson's argument is that the Homeric narrator wouldn't have made the value judgment implied by the word "slut" even though Telemachus and Odysseus clearly do

I said arguably because I’m being charitable to you not because I think Wilson’s translation is tenuous. That first guy you replied to has it right. You made a retarded comparison which serves no point with any merit.

>scholarly objectivity
Confirmed for not knowing jack shit about the various English translations

The word "sluts" didn't exist in ancient Greek you dimwit. It was an implied translation of a word that means "slaves" or "servants."

I'd read that.

The Romans tried to get rid of a lot of the gay and degenerate stuff they disliked too. A lot of later sources when describing Diogenes cancelling his prostitute use the word for a high class prostitute rather than a cheap prostitute. It's likely the original was the lowest class which was not gender specific and also included men who were receptive partners (especially those who polluted their mouth with receptive oral sex, because that was their homo test) and women who would do weird shit in public for a few beans. Ovid changes Hylas's rape to a willing seduction of him by women where he abandons his father figure, while most earlier versions hold him to be an unwilling victim stolen from his male true love who searches for him for years.

>dont interject im not talking to u

"Confirmed brainlet that knows fuckall about the language in which the text written" is an odor as strong as rotting meat. It takes zero backreading to smell it wafting off of your posts.

In a funny sort of way, "slave" is a bad word to use since it's such a loaded term for us. It comes with all sorts of moral baggage. It may be a correct translation, but it can still have a distorting effect. "Servant" might be seen as a distasteful euphemism, but it works well in that it doesn't draw attention to itself. These things are best cleared up in footnotes in my opinion.

You're crazy this kills me and even by modern language this tries to downplay odysseys. Of course homer is meant to have his heroic epic be epic. It literally takes a woman to not interpret Male action that way

He wanted them killed because they fucked not because they were slaves you moron.
That's because you're biased, I've quoted her admitting bias

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But the nouns "sluts" and "women" are synonyms.
There's no value judgment.

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>don’t call a slave a slave because then people would feel funny about it
Huh, and people itt say Wilson is a revisionist.

Our culture is so far removed from that of the Greeks its difficult not to try and make it accessible, but making an ancient text translate to modern sensibilities is not the same thing as accuracy.

What your issue was with what I said was me being facetious you m o r o n

>muh mythical unbiased objective scholar-bot
You’re asking for the quote literally impossible.

Totally plasuable because we have zero indication that he was male, a single person, or female. Could have been a female on the basis that Sappho was a big figure during that segement of Greek literature

He's making fun of Wilson

Joke
Your head

The Odyssey is actually considered by some scholars to be more of a domestic story than the Iliad. By epic standards, it isn't very epic, because its not about war. It's just about a bad road trip and a lot of bad hosts and house-guests. It ends with the protagonist murdering a bunch of weak unarmed men.

Everything will clearly be biased but she's going out of her way to be biased and she admits it. It's an entirely different perspective

The problem, r e t a r d, is that you aren't funny.

Literally her beef is with the translators not Homer. If anything she is implying Homer is not a shitlord

I don't think that guy was joking, I think he really believes the Odyssey should be accessible.

Stop plagiarizing the way I type and get your own syntax.

Some would call that self-awareness.

>by some scholars
Like Wilson? who I'm arguing against?
I haven't heard that interpretation, it is meant to be heroic epic still just in a less essentialist manner. It's an everyman bravery, it's still an epic. Quit whitewashing

>Nobody does spaces except you
M o r o n

Like Longinus moron. Longinus argued that the Odyssey was less sublime than the Iliad because it was too domestic and feminine and there wasn't enough magic or war.

this is the reading comprehension level of the people you post with on this board

>I'm trying to write an accessible work that keeps to the historical context

>fuck epics, sluts are victims, I'm a feminist

You: I don't see the difference

Sure that's fair for a classical opinion, not a modern one and he would've killed Wilson

>Emily Wilson
>Literally spends her entire life studying ancient Greek
>Achieves possible career dream of doing her own informed translation
>You
>A shitposter
>"The lifelong classicist hates ancient Greek and does everything wrong reeeeeee."
Shut the fuck up, nobody's making you read it

>many translations...blame the victims
>it's their own fault they die, because they're "disobedient"
>or because they're "sluts"
>it's normal, like killing a chicken
>it's taking out the human trash
>no empathy
imagine reading The Odyssey and empathizing with the maidservants who helped the suitors despoil Odysseus' household for a decade.
they were traitors to his household, because they had sided with the suitors against Penelope, Telemachos and Eurykleia. Homer's narrative puts forward the moral judgment that they should have remained loyal to the rightful king, but instead they were turncoats - a domestic equivalent of Vichy France.
this is technically the final episode of the Trojan War. if Agamemmnon's return constitutes a bloody episode of that war, then this does as well. those maidservants had long since given him up for dead, and so, "when the cat's away, the mice will play;" but they bet wrong, and took the wrong side.
that entire chapter is portrayed as Odysseus' final battle, within his own household. the suitors are slaughtered, their lovers are forced at spearpoint to clean up the blood, and afterward are hung en masse.

I can't imagine why she chooses to empathize with the traitorous maidservants when there are so many awesome female characters one can identify with in The Odyssey: Penelope, Nausicaa, Circe, Calypso, Athena...
one modern sympathy one could muster is for every slave in these stories, but that's an entirely anachronistic concern because the story treats it as perfectly normal. we'd be imputing that concern upon the text, which cannot support it. it'd make as much sense as thinking the dissevering of Melanthios' genitals and nose and feeding them to the dogs was "cruel and unusual punishment."
the thing is, no man who reads The Odyssey identifies with, let alone sympathizes with, Odysseus' disloyal goatherd Melanthios; why then does she choose to let her empathy flow freely for the turncoat maidservants? male and female servant alike get brutally slaughtered at the end, but she only has qualms about the female victims.
"no empathy" indeed...

Just make your own anti-feminism translation, user. The more pespectives the better.

Yeah, because its thousands of years later. This guy arguing that the Odyssey is epic, and so needs to be grandiose and flowery is just wrong though.

I guess I must be a great rationalist then
She is admitting to that, I'm taking no licenses

It's just an inkhorn for a tungchanger.

Empiricist hogwash, if I write one it'll be pronazi extreme rationalism and it'll be an adaptation

>Yea Forums
*the /pol/ invasion

No I'm saying her criticism of the other translations is that it's too epic and shouldn't be. I don't care how you write it but it has to be epic, that's the genre

She looks like Billy Boyd.

She clearly has more respect for the material than you do. You're the one insisting it has to fit your own idea of "epic" which the Greeks didn't even share.

>let's write a horror novel but take out all scary words
Literally the state of feminists and cucks

"Epic" doesn't mean to the Greeks what it means to you. The Odyssey was viewed by the Greeks as a comedy of manners. Nothing very momentous happens during the story. it's basically an ancient Greek road movie about one unlucky guy trying to go home.

The Greeks definitely thought of Homer's epics as moralistically how man should live. You are wrong

You're over emphasizing that, it may be relatively seen like that to them but in an absolute sense it is epic

I didn't disagree with anything you said in this post and neither does Wilson. How are either of us wrong? There's also a case to made that Odysseus is an anti-hero anyway, seeing that he's a trickster figure whose name translates roughly to "hated by the gods."

>The Greeks didn't think of it as big and sweeping
>But objectively it has to have an "epic tone"
No it doesn't.

>be misogynist male with a background in Greek
>come across the classics
>"Oh boy, let's see here."
>maiden
>"Hmmm"
>slut
>Siren moufs
>"Hmmm"
>Sexy siren lippers
>"Tee hee!"
>Dialogues of Plato
>"I respect you as a fellow man."
>unzip pants and stroke member
>"I love to fondle beautiful boys!"
>Cum

it isn't an interesting perspective, it's a stereotypical perspective.

Sure, that's a good fact, I definitely feel Wilson represents the slow cessation of being of western civilization. it's unstoppable clearly

>Slow cessation of Western Civilization
The sooner the better. I hope you go first

embarrassing post

Yesh it do b, let's go reverse. A movie about pets finding a way home, it is an epic but decidedly hilarious to adults modern and outlandishly funny to ancient Greeks where killing was normal as was genocide

>bad road trip and a lot of bad hosts and house-guests
Beowulf and Irish/Scandinavian/Icelandic saga scholars on suicide watch.

>mfw xi jinping will erase every last vestige of western civ and we’ll be having these arguments about ancient chinese lit instead

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the westerner applauds its own destruction, complacent in the knowledge that this can never happen.
few better examples of decadence.

Sry b, I'm omw to save humanity. you can't get paid and trade that amounts to your whole culture without us c:
Wen I have power I will exterminate you all

>Scholars on suicide watch
They're definitely not. You're the one with a problem.

>we

ha ha ha.
you won't be involved in such discussions, neville. you will be cleaning gutters, mowing grass or folding clothes.

Now you're getting it

I'm going to get power and I'm going to kill you

>sleeping with the suitors
sounds slutty

Shut up white

>onwy now do you appwoach my oceanic, jaded undewstanding!

eye rolling cunt.

make me, little brown boy. pointless diaspora trash. alt-white. self-conscious, westernised gimp.

>My dad could beat up your dad

*steals ur wimmenz with my superior intellectual prowess*

The reason they hang the women is because they're sleeping around, then doesn't calling them sluts make sense? It better reflects the reason they're being hanged. They're being killed as punishment for their actions, so a derogatory term blaming the women makes sense.

Shut up minority before we cut off food stamps

Wilson's argument was partially that the word used doesn't translate to "sluts" (so her translation is literally more accurate than, say, Fagles) and that the Homeric narrator wouldn't use such vindictive language for Odysseus's enemies.

I'm an upper middle class white guy, so food stamps aren't really an issue. This thread has degenerated from a discussion of translations into paranoid hysteria about the decline of the West. The West isn't declining, you just aren't supposed to have power in the hierarchy dumbass.

“The West” is a completely incoherent conceptthere is no fucking Western Civilization you dummies
Nobody cares that you were born into money

the chinese won't be as entertained by your trite, gimmicky personality as your pale little uni friends are, you know that?
little snarky noises aren't so adequate a substitute for real insight with them.

You clearly have no idea how different Homeric Greek is from English. There’s no such thing as a one-to-one translation or even close and the choices a translator has to make are huge. At some point you just have to set some principles for a translation and roll with them, which is what every translator has done for as long as we’ve been at it. Now there’s a contemporary feminist being completely transparent about what specific principles she’s using to translate Homer and it’s all just too much for you. It could not be more obvious that you don’t know anything about Homer scholarship and are just reflexively freaking out because of who the translator is.

What are you talking about schizoid white

I don't care about any of that shit either. I only mentioned it because the other guy erroneously assumed I was on food stamps.
>Hysterical paranoia
>take me seriously.

Hospitality and errors in hosting or conduct as a guest are the driving motivators of fortune and war in their epics. The Tain Go Cuailnge starts
>as a domestic dispute over inequality in a marriage's assets
>in which the female partner's agents fuck up the equalisation of their estates by getting too drunk as guests and telling their host they would have stolen the cow if he had not agreed
>the main hero to defend against her army gets into the battle because he's cursed by the war goddess for not offering her the use of his cow as is good manners
>the main hero then has to fight alone against her armies because everyone else in his army is struck down with birth pains because their king was rude to some guy's wife who was pregnant, and the guy broke a promise to her while pregnant so she took out the entire province in revenge
Most epics are driven by the domestic, not the war(s) or exiles that arise from the domestic. In Greek it's not driven by hospitality, but a lot of other epics are, since their point is not to communicate war but what happens when basic social mores are not upheld.

The Iliad starts mid-war though, skipping over the initial part where Helen gets stolen away. The Odyssey, meanwhile, contains no warfare. Domestic disputes are the causes of a lot of epic conflicts, but epics do tend to focus of warfare and large battles as opposed to the bad marriages that cause them.

>Tain Go
*Bo

>The West isn't declining

of course it is. you may not see that from the inside of your insulated little sac, but all indicators, from capeshit to tao lin to the demographic collapse of once vital societies like germany and france point towards a general decline of european-derived cultures and the societies that bear them.
give me a reason to be optimistic about the future of the west so-called.

I remember this bitch getting destroyed via comparative analysis from some Greek scholar, don't have the link anymore though

wait

lareviewofbooks.org/article/homer-for-scalawags-emily-wilsons-odyssey/#!

Absolute patrician destruction

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You don't have to be optimistic. You're gonna be poor and under water, just as planned.

>Like come on! It is 2019 for christ sake!

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>prole culture means the world is going to Hell in a handbasket
Just lay down and rot if you’re this defeatist.

i'm talking about you, small man. the stereotypical, alt-white diaspora runt.

doesn't matter whether you take me seriously or not, burger queen.
when the infants who find his sort of minstrelsy amusing are all gone, he will likewise go.
the alt-white diaspora runts, who so studiously zag when whiiiiiite peeeooople (heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh!) zig, will go the way of all symbiotic lifeforms when their counterparts die off.

The difference is "feisty Penelope" vs. "tired depressed Penelope" which is just a matter of preferential interpretation on both parts. It would also make sense for Penelope to sound weary, given that she's been avoiding marriage and grieving continuously for about ten years.

Western basically just means european... why do people act like the west doesnt exist lmao. Unless they unironically dont think europeans exist

Thats cool and all but I really dont care lmfaooo like shut up loooool

Get out of this translation thread and go back to /pol/ you rude, hysterical, incoherent asshole.

Europeans are just dumb asians with more hair colors.

Its more of an uneasiness with the idea that "European culture" is in any way homogeneous or unified.

>preferential interpretation

Indeed.

>The result pitches between the ancient and modern as any translation must if it chooses to pursue the vitality of storytelling over the archeology of poetic form. Translating epic is, after all, a marathon, not a sprint; you have to be careful what you grab onto. Wilson’s verse may be traditional, but it contains an interesting variety of modern conveniences. Canapés and kebabs are now being served aboard Homer. Odysseus is a “scalawag.” Demeter has “cornrows in her hair” — anachronistically, if the metaphor is based on new-world maize; ironically, when we think she is an agricultural goddess.

But apart from this, Wilson makes a ton of bias-induced 'interpretations' that are fueled by dishonesty and agenda.

The war is used to illustrate a variety of social errors to be avoided, not just adultery. Hectoring is still looked down on as a practice even by those who don't know the gruesomeness the epic outlays as a consequence for familial outrage. The Tain has several battles and wars within it, more than the Iliad arguably, but like the Iliad, it has long lapses into side events and other methods to communicate the importance of social cohesion around specific behaviours. The wars themselves are just one of the ways that consequences fall out, but most all the consequences and disputes centre on the domestic and violations or upkeep of its norms. People who die in the battles are judged good bad or ambiguous based on how they upheld the ideals of the society, not on whether they survive the stand they took.

Actually i am a fat woman

the fuck

Doesn't Helen victim blame herself using vindicitive language? Lattimore translate it as "slut that I am." Do you know what Wilson translated that part as?

Ganster demeter is best demeter.

We had many threads on this last summer. Do we need another? The woman looks like Elon musk though.

>As a classics professor, an Englishwoman at home in the United States, a deep reader of English and American verse, Emily Wilson has come by her Homer honestly. Her poem has the stamp of a clear and consistent vision, and brings Odysseus home to us again — cunning, eloquent, murderous; in sum, complicated.

Even the article supposedly "roasting" Wilson in this thread ends with respect and admiration for her efforts. If anything, she's being incredibly upfront and honest about what her motives and agenda are.

>tfw read enough 1930s books to know slut meant slob to most readers and in some cases a lowly servant
>much like slattern
Feels good to not need a translator for modern English.

there is no plan, you babbycom gimp.

i'm not at all defeatist. i'm not a quietist either.
this american attitude, that you can pump out gutter filth without any real consequence, has led to a situation where graduates of the most prestigious educational institutions on the planet are genuinely interested in and follow the adventures of idiotic cartoon characters like batman.
rather than passively accepting it, like a lotus eater, i'm going to speak my mind.
but that is just the most frivolous aspect - ought we to ignore the mass medication of children? the looseness and superficiality of social bonds? the shameful outsourcing of reproduction onto peoples whose methods of childrearing are still analogue?
your world is not 'the world'. 'the world' can and will continue without 'muh west,' without Yea Forums-tire snarking and trivial little eye rolls and bickering over whose willy has the most ingrown hairs and all the rest of the sickening plop that gets rinsed around here every single day.

Weary fucking reminder that the English word "slut" used to mean "female house servant"

Wearier fucking reminder that in modern usage it means a woman who fucks

Weariest imaginable fucking reminder that translations are subject to the era in which they're made

The word "slut" implied sexual promiscuity by the end of the 15th century though

>added sexist or misogynist terms that never existed in the original Greek

Could she name what those terms were?

Slut never meant house-servant. It was first used by Chaucer to refer to a slovenly man, and its always been an insult

>Another early meaning was "kitchen maid or drudge" (c. 1450), a meaning retained as late as the 18th century, when hard knots of dough found in bread were referred to as "slut's pennies".

indo-europeans

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There's no roasting in the article.
>The brutality of the women’s execution by mass hanging — sadly, perhaps the only thing Telemachus thinks up on his own — still speaks for itself: uppity slaves get lynched.
This guy is on Wilson's team.

Yes, but so did being dirty or a low servant. Also not wearing a head covering implied rampant sexual availability and wearing stripes meant you wanted to see the money first. The use of it for slobs and low servants doesn't die out til the feminists tried to claim it back from those demographics for some godforsaken postwar reasoning.

I just looked at several dictionaries and none of them say this. Where'd you get this.

How can such retards be so educated?

I'm sorry, what part of the translation is wrong here? Is she saying the original text had empathy towards the whores being killed? Is she inserting her own fan-fic of what the text should include? I'm missing the point of her tweets.

kek, this Elon Musk lookin bitch

You realise that the Iliad and Odyssey were as important to the Greeks as the Bible was to Christian civilisations? Along with Hesiod, the Homeric works codified their religion and provided a sense of unity among the various Greek peoples, giving them a shared identity as Hellenes. Of all surviving papyri from the Greeks who settled Egypt, 50% are the Iliad or Odyssey. Its importance cannot be overstated.

The description of hanging women as "birds trying to fly" is pretty grim and horrifying. So are a lot of the descriptions of the unarmed suitors being cut down. At one point the suitors are all laughing at the local prophet and he starts shouting that he foresees all of them lying in a pool of their own blood, and they should run. Odysseus may be the hero, but what he does to the suitors (local young men of status, some of whose fathers are Odysseus's old friends), and the women is pretty grotesque and grim and plays kind of like a horror movie, even by Greek standards, and even knowing what they've all done. Translating the Odyssey so that hanging the women is an unambiguously good heroic thing may not be the most accurate interpretation.

Did you like at etymology dictionaries or just dictionaries?
etymonline.com/word/slut

You realize that all Greek heroes had done very messed up shit, and were more in-line with the anti-heroes of today, right? Heracles threatened to end his marriage because he wanted to have sex with other women.

Uh oh be careful stepping on the little boys revenge fantasies there. They get testy about that.

.... Heracles beat his first wife to death because Hera drove him temporarily insane in order to get revenge on Zeus for fathering him

My point precisely.

Not sure what your point is. You responded to someone saying that Odysseus did something gruesome and it might sound better translated in a way that points up the gruesomeness. You seem to just be saying that lots of mythical heroes did gruesome things, which does t disagree with him at all but you’re wording it combatively.

>destruction
>article simply analyses her choices, seeing some as falling flat and others being understandable in the context of modern interpretation

Did you even read the article?

Read anything after and stop reading 1 post and replying

>first woman to translate The Odyssey into English
>woman
It's not saying she's the first PERSON to translate it.

>be a nice, somewhat ugly femcel
>devote your life to the study of the classics, a humble but worthy pursuit
>fall in love with the ancient Greek language, talk about it with anyone who will listen
>work hard on a translation of the Odyssey
>hey, miss, can we do an article on you in the paper?
>wow is my translation that significant? hahah. maybe I'm just the first woman to publish a translation.

>THIS FEMINIST ICON JUST ENDED MISOGYNY IN ACADEMIA AND YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL LOOK AT HER LOOK AT HER

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1) its considered inevitable anyway
2) the ones killing them are heroes
You think the Greeks were trying to say what they did was wrong because it's all being described? I think a lot of the Greeks hearing these stories aren't like you or I. Most Greeks hearing this story probably seen some gore themselves. They say soldiers today adapt very grim senses of humor.

....... Okay, one of you needs to talk to him, because I'm gonna hurt this guy's feelings

People with moneyed interests seek to use their positions to force the population into having hollow and inauthentic relationships with the ancient world. Even the worst sort of folk engagement with the classical world is better than any classical one.

Hera is fucking based man

Do you seriously believe that the Greeks didn't speak for themselves about what they considered moral or heroic behavior. When did you drop out of school? What age were you when Daddy left?

That would be super helpful if you were any more correct in your other posts but you aren’t.

Can you give a textual example of why Wilson’s translation is hollow and inauthentic? Scary-sounding quotes from interviews and blurbs do t count. From the text please.
>folk engagement with the classical world
What in tarnation even is that? “Folks” don’t read Homer.

Nah just do it.

If previous translations had extra things in them that weren't in original text then she's doing the right thing. Somehow I feel as though that's not exactly the case and she's trying to game this somehow...

You think the average uneducated Greek who glorified war, who probably has killed himself, was bothered by the descriptions of promiscious second-class women being, inevitably by fate, killed by the heroes of the story?

Are you fucking kidding me? You think the Greeks were conscripting helots to do their fighting for them?

>hurr durr lets give armor and weapons to this slave who can't read and send him off to fight for us

There's a reason every character in the Iliad has a name and a backstory you cock gobbling baboon

I don't know what you mean. I'm saying the story isn't written for you to pity them even with the grim descriptions, because it's actually written coldly like an autist would write it, not like in a sympathetic way. The Greeks who listened to the orator were likely either indifferent or liked the descriptions.

>i dont know what youre talking about

NO SHIT SHERLOCK

You're bringing up irrelevant details.

>a woman’s most threatening orifice, her mouth
Literally what in goddamn did she mean by this?

She bites

You're backtracking in a pathetic attempt to cover your illiterate ass. You know absolutely nothing about ancient Greece, you have no concept of the polis, you are fully unaware of the manner in which the civilization functioned in even the BROADEST and most GENERAL detail, you have never read a single Greek tragic play, and everyone else in the fucking thread can TELL because you keep saying shit that would get you laughed out of an introductory course on western literature in general. Everything about you is cancerous, and you deserve to be mocked

Give me one example of my backtracking, please.

>You think the Greeks were trying to say what they did was wrong because it's all being described? I think a lot of the Greeks hearing these stories aren't like you or I. Most Greeks hearing this story probably seen some gore themselves. They say soldiers today adapt very grim senses of humor.
"the Greeks probably thought of it the way I do, an illiterate crossboarder"

>You think the average uneducated Greek who glorified war, who probably has killed himself, was bothered by the descriptions of promiscious second-class women being, inevitably by fate, killed by the heroes of the story?
"Hey, they could have agreed with me, because they were probably average illiterates, too, right?"

>I don't know what you mean. I'm saying the story isn't written for you to pity them even with the grim descriptions, because it's actually written coldly like an autist would write it, not like in a sympathetic way. The Greeks who listened to the orator were likely either indifferent or liked the descriptions.
"Not only do I have absolutely zero knowledge on how the Greek city states conducted warfare, I'm pretty sure I also know what they thought about Homer."

Come on now.

We know exactly how they felt about that scene, you idiot.

A BLACK WOMAN has gone to the grocery store to buy some milk. As a BLACK and a WOMAN she ponders, "As a WOMAN, and as a BLACK, what milk is right for me?" Grasping a milk carton in her strong, BLACK, WOMAN hand, she at last makes a decision, a decision deeply resonant with her identity as a WOMAN who is BLACK, indeed, with WOMEN and BLACKS everywhere. She marches to the register with a spring in her step and places the milk down onto the counter. "As a strong, powerful, important BLACK WOMAN, I - a BLACK WOMAN - would like to purchase this milk." The cashier rings her up. "That will be two dollars and eighty-nine cents," he says, practically sneering at her for being a BLACK WOMAN. The BLACK WOMAN defiantly raises her BLACK, WOMANLY hand, a bold, defiant symbol of her brave defiance as a BLACK WOMAN, to silence the racist cashier. "Your racism won't hold me down! I'm going to purchase this milk whether you like it or not!" She hands over the money to the racist cashier, who says "What?," clearly stupefied by the bold defiance of this BLACK WOMAN. She marches out of the grocery store with her head held high, and steals a Slim Jim, not so much as a WOMAN, mostly as a BLACK that time.

>Emily "Complicated" Wilson
Shit translation, fucked up from the start

All translations have things in them that arent in the original text because Homeric Greek is about as 1:1 translatable to English as Martian. The important thing is to be honest and transparent when making those choices, which Wilson clearly is.

>Your motives are no secret. You want to marry me. I am the prize. So I will set a contest.

All politics aside, her verse flows like utter garbage and reading an entire book of it would be miserable

Where did I say they think like me? I literally say they don't in the text you copied. The Greeks were an awful civilization. Glorifying war, slavery, treating women like second-class citizens are all barbarous things. They were mostly an uneducated people, but people like you just look at the top 1% of Greeks who were well-educated and you put all Greeks on the same pedestal.

Dogs don't age that bad tho

>Glorifying war, slavery, treating women like second-class citizens are all barbarous things

wut

Here's a fun fact for the peanut rattling around in your skull, because apparently you need to be spoonfed: "the 1%" were the only participants in warfare.

age like milk

>He couldn't even be bothered to google the word "helot"

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to afford a ship a crew armor horse chariot was expensive,these people are kings and knights actually leading their subjects

there are some people who think Homer was multiple people

Yes, we all know the Greeks were very progressive and had shockingly flattering portrayals of women in literature, unlike those evil, misogynistic white men of the late 19th - early 20th century

The slaves who fought in the wars were the 1%?

Based Virgil didn't need no translators

V A R I V M E T M V T A B I L E S E M P E R
F E M I N A

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at the very fucking least, they were land-owners with enough surplus wealth to actually fucking afford to own weapons - weapons that were made in an era before steel was a fucking thing

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel/

Is this latin for "women are queens"?

>What is the value of influence?

A fickle and changeable thing is the woman always.

You just sound stupider and stupider the longer you talk. If you knew ... anything about the history of warfare you wouldn't have asked that question. The guy who called you a cock gobbling baboon for not understanding the Iliad was right.

You're missing the part where she tweets constantly and goes on shows.

Enlighten me then. We're talking about Odyssey, not Iliad.

it was a line of aristocrats with armor supported by chariots on flanks and charriots shutting wounded and supplies unarmored pesants behind the armored men slinging stones and shit

>unarmored pesants behind the armored men slinging stones and shit
So then how is it that >"the 1%" were the only participants in warfare.
Tell me how these unarmored peasants are the 1%.

now of course for Marxist historians this has meant that the archaic period can be viewed as a period of class struggle, now I am not going to be pushing a Marxist line in these lectures and I certainly don't want to defend Marxism as a current political believe which has been proven to be quite bankrupt but I do want to draw to your attention that as a line of interpretation of understanding ancient societies it cannot be ignored that is to say we have to address the fundamental question what impact do the basic economic relations of society have on the history of that society Marxs would say where a man and woman stand economically is really the prime relationship that that person will have with the rest of their community and so for many marxist historians the archaic period is a period in which wealthy Athenians and wealthy Greeks are virtually at war with the poor with the domos with the people.... Well it is an attractive approach in some aspects and yet as more historians have looked at specific incidents recorded in poetry or better in the work of ancient historians like herodatus that the more it appears the real conflict was not between the rich and poor but between various competing aristocratic groups.....

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Every single named combatant in the Iliad is an "aristocrat." Warfare at the time was similar to a repeated succession of duels, NOT a melee. Slaves were NOT given weapons, and they weren't killed at random, either. Why do you think it took ten fucking years lmao

The entire point I'm making here is that the 1% weren't the only people who fought in all the ancient Greek wars, not just the Trojan war but all Greek wars. Not every single war was 100% composed of the top 1% most educated people. That's the point I'm making to the person who said it was only the 1% who fought in wars.

You could make the argument that literally every tier of society "went to war", but please read something - anything - about the Peloponnesian war.

Why do you think I don't know about the Peloponnesian war?

cant you see the joke in it?he is right that the tip of the spear is the 1 percent but of course the handle and stuff is not the 1 percent

Oh no a published author working to get her book read and make some money on appearances while the iron is still hot. The horror

I get it, but it's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

i dont think you ''make''. your seemingly marxist critical theories deconstruct and never ''make'' or build,they will never be based or cornerstone

Because you don't seem to understand the degree to which Sparta OR Athens deliberately excluded the lower castes from participating in combat. If you're being a pedantic Marxist and want to wax poetic about how the chain of capital binds the lowliest farmer to his lord, you're applying an analytical framework that does not and cannot adequately describe the socioeconomic systems of the ancient world.

I'm not a Marxist at all. My original point was that the Greeks weren't horrorified by the grim description of the sluts being killed. And I said the common Greeks who listened to these stories were likely uneducated and have witnessed gore, in contrast to you and I, so they were either indifferent or liked the descriptions. The person said to me that the 1% were the ones who fought in wars, although that's irrelevant to my point I still wanted to entertain their expressions.

Just don't try to make the Nth publicity whore sound like some modest devotee to the craft for its own sake.

So you're saying that because I'm an American, I'm an Iraq war veteran? Nice.

>uneducated and have witnessed gore,

people who have had to chop others up in conflict have been schooled by nature and have a better understanding of how the world works then some coddled academic

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That's what I'm trying to say. It's the coddled academic who thinks Homer was trying to have you empathize with the sluts.

have you,a wuss slave ever held dominion or exhorted will by force and violence?

Literally who said that that was Homer's intention. Please, point it out to me.

ahh geez sorry

See this person's replies to me

You misunderstood that chapter, he states that she's attributing those evils on the narrator (Homer) rather than on the characters, fundamentally misunderstanding the work.

brainlet

>incredibly

don't forget to take poignantly with you to reddit

>that pic
JUST

How long will it take me learn to read ancient Greek so i can judge for myself the credibility of these slanderous statements ?

if your parents would have exposed you to the ole greek at birth and then since you could read up until now you have read all greek lit and fragments and monument inscriptions you could make by now a judgment that would be based

my parents didn't realize the importance of these issues at the time i guess. merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily life was but a dream. i'll have to take it up with them when next i see them.

you could father a child and raise them exposed to ancient greek and mold them as an academic weapon to be loosed upon the world in 25 years and in that way you can do it

Logos alone has 50 meanings. A lot of Greek words have more meanings. Take for example metaphor which literally means to physically move something like furniture, but also means our current concept of the term

That literary irony runs contrary to the prevailing biases of the writer's time & place is obvious enough. Less obvious is that accuracy of translation depends on the translator's irony about their own time & place. That she would use vogue terms like "rape culture" clearly suggests that she lacks the necessary authorial detachment.

>The rope around the throat.
>What better way to stop a woman's most threatening orifice, her mouth?
sing it, sister!

Name one (1) serious woman

that woman in machiavelli's the prince

she mounts her castle wall and show the besieging enemy who have her son hostage her cunt,she says kill him because she is fertile and can produce another so to inherit her kingdom

based Machiavellian pill