Why do people hate Capitalism so much? It's like you don't want to be free lol...

being free to choose your favorite brand of consumer electronics is more important than being free to express your true gender identity. true freedom can only be achieved through economic freedom.

We hear very little of him and it’s all evilness.

Dengist China is more capitalist than socialist imo, but they at least have a plan.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=zQk5zd4Y1A0&t=14s

this

Nice bait. Funny to see lefties ripping off right wing memes but what else is new DAB ON EM.

Neoliberalism or neoliberals are the liberals in power now. They’re the ones that got (more) in bed with corporate interests and made the shift away from unions as blue collar workers. They’re boomers. Think Hillary Clinton. They’re the most tepid and boring of the Democrats and have no edge at all to them as they just do what corporate money tells them to do. Their era is ending as the liberal party is FUCKED right now. They pushed multiculturalism as one giant pr and advertisement for corporate control. Just like every company running a sweat shop that has a pride logo; dow chemical and every other opportunists raping the earth has a Twitter that’s nonstop posting about how many women and poc they’ve hired. As we all know just because there are now black People wearig capes in our movies doesn’t mean a single thing has changed for them socially. Neoliberals are getting pushed out by progressives which is hilarious as they constructed them in order to oppose republicans. There’s a lot of history here really but neoliberals basically run the world. They’re getting pushed out by populism and the further splintering of blue dog dems,progressives,business dems, marxists, socialists, and independents. AOC accosting her fellow colleagues is the Face Of this.

Capitalism is only good until it's not, same with liberalism. Not keeping a cautious eye on these accelerating trends just because you favour them relative to some opposite extremes is very limited and binary thinking (a.k.a. really stupid).

Why don't people understand spectra? Is it really that difficult an insight to internalize?

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>edgy high school post

Is this Taiwanese underwater basket weaving forum really worth my time?

Remind me again when this hasn’t been the case in society?....oh wait

>I don't hate capitalism, just its most pragmatic and inevitable expression

The fact that the managerial class is revolting against capitalism is very telling. The power of managing a dozen or so of clearly exploited people doesn't sit well with people with morals. The leadership class/elite class are literal sociopaths who care nothing more than maximizing the dollar amount from their wage slaves.

A lot of people believe there's some kind of self-propagating leftist cultural hegemony established in academia, film, music, culture, writing, etc, all of which are finally beginning to affect politics through legislation like the one which brought JP to fame (the "it's illegal to misgender someone" law, which I'm not even sure actually existed as it was presented by the right)
So let's look at how the left got this (supposed, because I'm skeptical) power. First they managed an initial insertion through conversion or placement of agents into art and activism, right? Workers groups and hollwood, basically. Probably backed by some leftist power center in the USSR but honestly how much did the USSR actually do for these people in the US? Very little. Occasionally sent some russian accented cuties over to cheerlead probably. Then, the art and the activism influenced academics, who took over the humanities departments of prestigious universities, implementing changes within the university that favored their point of view (starting a journal of women's/native studies, for example) and self-selecting through mentorship and lecture, encouraging those most influenced/most brilliant at influencing students to their camp and back into academia, forming a second generation which was galvanized to directly influence policy, and so we have an AOC and a bernie sanders, which makes the current political reality a complete failure mode for midcentury conservativism. As I understand it.
Anyway I wonder why the so-called right is so perplexed with this power structure, when the obvious solution is to copy leftist success. Personally I think because leftist philosophy is inherently proselytizing, it seeks to expand numbers due to the original function of the workers strike and now through vague (but still effective, obviously) ideas of justice for subgroups who until recently would not have heard of it. The right, instead, lacks a prosyletizing element- how do you convince someone to be a conservative, when much of conservativism argues that the status quo of today should be preserved and the rest of it seeks to preserve a status quo of yesteryear.

Basically I'm telling rightists that they need to conceive of a conservativism which proselytizes, either through some kind of libertarian/randian veneration-of-individual dogma or something else I can't even think of. They need to begin the work of grassroots activism that seeks to expand numbers rather than alienate, and they also need to begin a second battle line of creating subversively conservative art, music, fiction, zines, etc. All of this without getting squashed by the leftist cultural hegemon. Find some way of communicating it without blatantly saying it. I like the odds of some kind of romantic revival but who knows.

Only chance at a future for the right. You heard it here first. It's not going to start with guys like JP, that's not how the theoretical leftist cultural grip started at all.

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Conflating Marxism with progressivism is a classic mistake lad. Simple as.

>mfw I lived long enough to see the labels from not real capitalism updated

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I'm concerned with practicality, to my mind separating out Marxism and progressivism is useless when almost all of the so called marxists havent actually read any critiques of capitalism and focus on tweeting and reiterating progressive talking points.
These are the people that make up the deleuzian machine which brings about political change via a desire for a more progressive facade.

Both Democrats and Republicans are neoliberals.

This is already happening, it’s why Sam Hyde is an outlaw badass and cultural icon. Essentially the right wing has inherited postmodernism itself. As the broader left is obsessed with inclusion and killing its own art scene and legacy ( refusing to acknowledge the classics as legitimate for example ) is pulling the air out of the room. Rock and roll is dead, everything is woke, Art is put through the prism of “wokeness” to be considered at all. Comedy, absurdism, organic and non-corporate endorsed media, meme culture, are all things that are RIGHT WING. They’re also the new hackers and are winning over the internet.This also has to do with the destruction of the white middle class. They have nothing to lose, rap is basically being corporatized and whitewashed just like jazz before it, this is the beginning of the end for it. The fact that all this is happening while shitty neocons are still running the party is symbolic of how unappealing liberalism has become in popular culture.

I can see your point, it’s really splitting hairs. What we know about progressives is that they’re basically mall of America consumers nodding along to Netflix serial dramas and their left wing bent.

You right nugga.

>conservatism is the new counter culture meme
More like right wingers are latching onto existing trends to co-opt it like they always do.

>America
twitter.com/atrupar/status/1101152160845348866

Cool. I think you're right. I think we need as much subversion as we can get and everything you listed is straight up not gonna cut it but it is a good start. I think the alienating/confrontational tone of these memes and art is funny and fun and works on some people but there also needs to be some seduction if that makes sense.
I'm gonna switch over to saying "we" because it's easier than qualifying my need to have this conversation because I would personally do better under a rightist system and thus favor it regardless of my belief of its morality or truthiness.

You can keep dismissing it till you’re blue in the face but places like the Chan’s are right wing now. Milo is up on stage dressed like James Brown talking about loving black cock. I mean have you ever even considered what it’s like to be 11 or 12 and growing up in this environment? If you’re a white boy getting told you’re shit everyday ( and you know dumbshit kids do this after reading tumblr ) you’re gonna be far right. Many of these kids don’t have to be conservatives but they will reject progressive values. It’s like it’s own meme, the young /pol/ tard. But what’s going to happen when these people grow up? It’s why they’re called gen-zyklon.

The chans are completely right wing but do nothing to expand or modify right wing thought in a way that favors its propagation, IMO

The key will be indie media. It’s changing everything. That’s why corporate tech bro’s have been bought and sold by neoliberals and why they’re trying to sterilize the Internet ( and are largely succeeding )

>North Korea
>Marxism
Are you fucking retarded?

Let's accept your condition that socialism doesn't work. Why would that mean moderate Social Democracy doesn't work either?
>iPhones and Androids
Both of which were state funded research, something Bernie Sanders would likely try (key word try) to increase the funding of.
>but that's still capitalism
Yes, but you're the one that said any step "toward" socialism is a step in the wrong path, and mentioning Sanders suggests that counts increased state intervention. This also ignores that state capitalism such as the aforementioned China. If you're going off success, then opposing statism makes no sense.
Neoliberal is an 80s political term based off Chicago School economics. Here the idea is to use the government to maximize profits. This means demanding free trade in developing countries while threatening tariffs on Japanese cars, a UBI to both argue for a decrease on employer benefits and use the government to get people to spend more in the market or shifting much of the tax burden (relatively) to the middle class. Though these are examples of some neoliberal policies, the motivation underlying them is a bigger tell than the idea itself.

>but places like the Chan’s are right wing now
Yea which took a decade to co-opt but chan culture is not innately right wing, only perceived and taken over by right wingers.

> It’s why they’re called gen-zyklon.
pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/
I don't doubt some kids will follow that path that you described, hell I would when I was young, but that is probably not the norm.

>retarded post
>anime
this conjunction is far too common

Said the one thinking that neoliberalism is not within capitalism

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In a meaningful way I’d agree. I think right wingers are forming the true intellectual class though. Just like during the renaissance information and education are being torn away from the universities as people find it stifling. Just scroll through Yea Forums and you can see people are forming their own bubbles of memes, books, and conversation outside the mainstream. This is a VERY big deal and I think with a few more innovations in tech there will be a real concurrent intellectual class outside of the mainstream. All those men that aren’t going to college will fall into this class, obviously. Block chain tech can probably rob JSTOR and other proprietors out of their data and relevance. A lot has to happen for the new right to rise up out of obscurity but the spark is there. It’s almost less consequencial what the right does and more important what oncoming progressives do. If the system can absorb people like AOC into its apparatus it can dispel the whole
Thing, I imagine the press will keep pushing it though. Latte swilling sois will unironically continue to destabilize society lol.

point out the wagies ITT

You’re out of touch. Obviously you missed the part where free speech (read: free expression) is now also right wing. Thus the Chans=right wing. You’re living in a world where Berkeley still supports things like this but that is over. Henceforth I shall consider you a boomer/neoliberal yourself since you can’t see the massive change that has taken place post-Obama. I’m telling you, gifting postmodernism and free speech and all these other valuable resources to the right was a huge mistake and now they have it. I wasn’t right wing but now I am. You could examine this as a shift in the Overton window leaving behind the things that made the left good in the first place.wishful thinking won’t chage the fact that there’s an existing trend at all of these things. Edgy teens could be co-opted in the left in the bush years because they got to speak their minds about bush and his wars , now they’re told to shut the fuck up if they aren’t exalting poc. Have you spotted the cultural shift yet ?

are you legitimately retarded?

No but you are

Classical liberals put the liberation of the individual as their utmost goal. If people are 'free' as a collective then they will sort themselves unequally. Classical liberals are fine with this. Neoliberals want everyone to be free but also equal and don't see that these two terms are at odds. That's why we get reverse discrimination and all the identity politics that has taken hold of the modern left.

>Henceforth I shall consider you a boomer/neoliberal yourself since you can’t see the massive change that has taken place post-Obama
In that the issue of free expression has been ironically co-opted by right wing? Yes I do. Browbeating me with labels and empty rhetoric is not an argument. Again you speak as if the right had no agency and hasn't been creating an narrowing and redefining of the Overton window to include identity politics into it.

>Edgy teens could be co-opted in the left in the bush years because they got to speak their minds about bush and his wars , now they’re told to shut the fuck up if they aren’t exalting poc. Have you spotted the cultural shift yet ?
Interesting that you shifted from gen Z to X after I shown you proof that gen Z is not more conservative than X. And you are over-exaggerating the browbeating that you think the other side is doing. If anything it is less of a shift and more of a polarization as the internet grows more and more echochambers.

Firstly it’s not a matter of co-optioning and more a matter of gifting. The phenomenon has nothing to do with establishment right wingers. This is NEW. As far as far righters including Identity into their consideration id agree that I think it’s a mistake, but it’s not the same as idpol progressives as it’s reactionary in nature rather than aggressive. It’s also not endorsed by corporate media.

Finally the article you posted ( and I appreciate it being from PEW as they’re usually pretty fair ) isn’t about gen-x it’s about millennials. This is about social issues like gay marriage and legalization of weed etc. those are the issues of a bygone era and it’s asking the wrong questions. Again this is actually emblematic of the disconnect. Nobody gives a fuck about being gay anymore, they’re tired of having their intellectual and artistic autonomy taken away from them. Not being able to be published because you’re white is a big deal. Society more generally is socially liberal, if you think the new right is about these old and tired kinds of social issues you’re asking the wrong questions. I’m sure Sam Hyde doesn’t care if two dudes fuck eachother, he just wanted to make his show. Spot the significance boomer.

Before recorded history and occasional intervals y sensible civilizations.
Now that we know money is the problem, and the devil or human nature, we ought to discontinue its usage. End the game, you know?

>can u define neoliberalism pls

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#Corporatocracy

imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2016/06/ostry.htm

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5688676/

blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2016/08/20/the-dark-side-of-economic-freedom-neoliberalism-has-deleterious-effects-on-labour-rights/

A simple thing to have in mind when imagining neoliberals: they would support a labor system similar to the horrendous situation that happened in England during the XIX century and the Industrial Revolution arguing that it was better for the State to abstain and not regularize any work relation (even if it meant that people – even children – would all be corroded alive working long hours and in terrible conditions for mere scraps). They export their policy to thir-world countries, for example, and there you can see factories and work places that look like the scenes from a Dickens novel.

These are people that object to any State regulation in all things they don’t need, but would of course support all policies that depend on the State, as long as their own navels are on the line. For example: they would never support the use of taxes for free education and free healthcare (after all, they have the money to pay for it), but for them the Police force and the Army are absolutely necessary (since they need the protection).

“Before recorded history” did you just feel like eternally BTFO yourself today? So you’re saying that the only successful societies are tribal ones, the same ones where their social lives are good but other warring tribes come and rape everyone? Yeah no thanks I’ll keep capitalism thanks.

Co-opting can be done by anyone, not just establishment figures.. Hell right now far right wigners are trying co-opt Pewdiepie, or at least make him look as if he is one of them.

>but it’s not the same as idpol progressives as it’s reactionary in nature rather than aggressive. It’s also not endorsed by corporate media.
Spiting hairs and playing with schematics at this point.

>they’re tired of having their intellectual and artistic autonomy taken away from them. Not being able to be published because you’re white is a big deal.
So it isn't some much of a cultural shift but a renegotiation of the change of the culture itself? How disappointing. And you just shifted the goalposts really hard. Earlier you insisted that they will reject progressive values, only to backpedal after I shown your proof.

Because the average Joe takes the benefits of a capitalist system for granted, but he doesn't understand that he enjoys those benefits because he lives in a country with property rights and economic freedom (However limited it may be depending on where he is). He thinks capitalism is "The evil billionaires are running the show and keeping the populace poor" because that's what his English Lit teacher told him in High School. Add to that the pathological obsession with equality and social justice, and you have the privileged college student who is infatuated with socialism or any of its variants, and will make up excuses or boogeymen to convince you it wasn't "real socialism".

It doesn't matter how many times the experiment fails, it doesn't matter how many times the populist hero ends up turning into a dictator, it doesn't matter how many times the economy collapses. All that matters is "good intentions" or "doing the right thing".

>renegotiation of the change of the culture itself
renegotiation of the previous shift in the culture itself

I like it because it's going to wipe humanity off the face of the earth in under a century. It's chemotherapy.

>le epic pewdiepie meme
Wow you really got me LMAO

Ofcourse you’d think it’s splitting hairs because you’re dismissive of my entire premise. Yet this conversation happens here everyday. A renegotiation of cultural exchange is entirely what this is about ( read: culture wars ).You seem to think there’s more to progressive values than idpol but is there really? Even far right people are worried about environmental destruction. There’s nothing unique about progressivism other than idpol which yes, is being rejected by everyone. My emphasis is that this is a huge mistake and a big deal. The “alt-right” is just a meme boogeyman but it is indeed a creation of progressivism. Not much has changed so I can only expect it to continue to polarize like you said. But it’s not contained to echo chambers my guy, it’s much bigger than that. If you don’t belive me see what happens with the Sanders campaign. Expect him to be cut down from every path imaginable while still having corporate media backing him.

> A renegotiation of cultural exchange is entirely what this is about
That is a vastly different position that what you said earlier, that people are outright rejecting 'progressive values'

>Even far right people are worried about environmental destruction.
Climate change denialism is still pretty alive and kicking. Where have you been?

>Expect him to be cut down from every path imaginable while still having corporate media backing him.
Corporate media is backing Tutsi genius

And you laguh about the pewdiepie meme, but it is just one of the many ways the Right inserts itself into a trend. That is people like you can't be the new counterculture because you don't create any trends only co-opt.

Idpol isn’t the same as being okay with multiculturalism or homosexuals it’s about intersectionality and creating a false hierarchy not based on meritocracy but based on steaming horseshit. What would you say if I told you...Republicans aren’t poc/women hating Nazis and are actually just interested in economics and fairness on the job market!!!!!

which on the other side of the coin one there is playing up the identity of white as victims of white genocide and stroking white supremacy

>Republicans aren’t poc/women hating Nazis
Didn't that Steve King said some shit about blacks? It is as equally naive if I said Democrats are actually just interested in economics and fairness on the job market!!!!!

Out.of.touch.

You’re still conflating establishment party politics with the new right and gen z. There’s no such thing as progressive values without idpol therefore progressivism is idpol. It’s almost as if you think the left has, dare I say it, cultural hegemony over these issues. Like I said previously the right is inheriting postmodernism. There’s nothing special about standing with screeching Twitter feminists now, nobody gives a fuck about our parents issues of gay marriage my guy. You’re fighting things that are over. A rejection of intersectional progressivism is in fact the negotiation itself. And it’s very unpopular. Progressive values are rendered empty when the right has free speech/postmodernism. A great example of this is found in the split and dead atheist community. Most intellectual atheists are no longer progressive, that’s a great example of how the right is taking in formerly leftist thinkers. And at the very least if they aren’t right they’re anti-progressive/anti-pc. Jesus man you sound like such a BOOMER getting uptight about pewdiepie, acting like he doesn’t have his own opinions lol. You’re a typical out of touch boomer on these issues and you still think the Great War it nazis must be fought when it really about mostly whites and others calling you on dumb bullshit.

Wow it’s almost as if cherry picking literally one example out of the largest western society there is is somehow supposed to indicate that there’s a serious problem? You’re just parroting mainstream media at this point. You equate the new right specifically with white supremacy lol, that’s a big mistake. Telling 13 year olds they’re white supremacists for liking pewdiepie is going to back fire and come back to haunt you. The hike stroking of white supremacy is a bogeyman, as if there’s even enough of those people to make up a single voting block LMAO. Like I said idpol for whites isn’t what this is, your failure to recognize truly aggrieved people for something else other than that is what’s driving them to grow larger and larger. You’re too dumb to even put it together boomer.

Lol, it’s funny of you to imagine that we even covered Mao.
we didn’t

Why are you constantly making random assumptions from me so you can make shit points? If anything you are the one thinking that the left has cultural hegemony to prop up your 'conservative is the new counter culture' meme

>A rejection of intersectional progressivism is in fact the negotiation itself.
You can't reject something to renegotiate it. And my point is that the progressive values are already accepted, it is just that the implementation is renegotiated, which goes against your previous claim that progressive values are being rejected.

>Most intellectual atheists are no longer progressive, that’s a great example of how the right is taking in formerly leftist thinkers.
Clearly you don't remember the fedora-era, these atheists were never overtly progressive or left wing

>acting like he doesn’t have his own opinions lol.
I actually do think he has his own opinions, which is why I can tell it is a one-sided relationship between him adn the far right.

>You’re a typical out of touch boomer on these issues and you still think the Great War it nazis must be fought when it really about mostly whites and others calling you on dumb bullshit.
More needless accusations and assumptions to browbeat me. Someone is clearly seething.

No but it meant to deflate such a grand sweeping generalization you made.

>You equate the new right specifically with white supremacy lol, that’s a big mistake. Telling 13 year olds they’re white supremacists for liking pewdiepie is going to back fire and come back to haunt you. The hike stroking of white supremacy is a bogeyman, as if there’s even enough of those people to make up a single voting block LMAO
I said nor implied none of these things.

>Like I said idpol for whites isn’t what this is, your failure to recognize truly aggrieved people for something else other than that is what’s driving them to grow larger and larger. You’re too dumb to even put it together boomer.
Could watch a movie with this level of projection lmao

I know you think your point by point youtuber style criticism is poignant but if anyone is reading this it’s obviously just a semantics game at this point. Your definition of progressivism is defined by MSM. At the end of the day there’s absolutely a cultural moment that we’re having and you have your way of describing it and interpretation and essentially I think you’re wrong and your finger is far from the pulse.

See above.

>I know you think your point by point youtuber style criticism
My dear do you not understand how greentexts work and its multiple functions and usage?

>you have your way of describing it and interpretation and essentially I think you’re wrong and your finger is far from the pulse.
I rest assured knowing I wasn't the one making random bizzare assertions with no proofs throughout the entire conversation.

Lol bitch this is a chan, get the fuck outta here with your “proofs” and false sense of “taking the high road”. This is a cultural war and it’ll take place on those grounds. I couldn’t write this shit if I tried lol. Boomer 101

>get the fuck outta here with your “proofs”
Facts don't care your feelings

>false sense of “taking the high road”
See above

The left truly can’t meme. Maybe if you wanna stop playing semantics games with me about my “assertions” and engage my ideas like a big boy you wouldn’t have to meme right wing memes at me. Is there anything more pathetic?

(not the person you're arguing with btw)

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I know my sweet OP

socialism has worked in
denmark
norway
sweden
finland
iceland
>THATS NOT SOCIALISM
its not marxian socialism but its a social democracy and its what everyone in the "far left" in america is advocating for and it most surely works and you're a disingenuous liar if you think its anything else

Capitalism has eroded the human morality that allowed functioning between people. It propagates a heirarchy where those who are most successful gain leverage and monopolize. There is no virtue or direction to capitalism, it is a machine that is purely meant to optimize profit for the individual company.

Regulated markets help to constrain this malicious and cancerous (in the terms of its growth strategy) function but ultimately does it poorly. Capitalism has eroded our ability to appraise value in terms of need and worth to humanity and instead gamifies life to the point that large nation states will poison their own babies and sow rot unto the earth for a more optimized GDP trajectory.

Capitalism is bad, not because it tries to be efficient or rewards unnovation, it is bad because it is an ideology that devalues humanity and our role in nature.

But these are capitalist countries and no the “far left” doesn’t belive that. I know what you’re trying to say which many democratic socialists are simply wanting a more mixed economy and I’d actually agree with much of what they’re wanting AOC style but there’s an actual far left that hates those countries for being too capitalist and hates the “Northern Europe is socialsit” meme. The thing is, is that even dem. Socialists are sill really capitalists my man.

i guess let me clarify, every politician that is considered far left in this country is actually just promoting social democracy

That’s the problem with terms like “far left/right” is that there’s really not very many people of any political power that actually fall into those categories. It’s media bullshit.

i most definitely agree, my two cents is that the overton window has been dragged so far to the right that anything even remotely lefty on economics that isnt drummed up idpol garbage is considered far left and unacceptable and mocked and derided by the mainstream media

the logical progression of any capitalistic (read: processurally centralizing) economy

I know this is bait but capitalism has destroyed any form of meaning or communication with a substantial Other. Aside from the psychic destruction it has caused, it also demands constant consumption and growth. This has led and will lead to the destruction of any type of cultural or intellectual stability.
As primitivism, communism, and anarchy are no longer feasible, I just hope the capitalist system implodes upon itself before it spreads its cancerous nature outside of Earth.

glad to see Yea Forums is not completely cucked

someone who doesn't know how greentext works seething and complaining about memes?

lol

Agreed.

I agree with your analysis and I have primitivist leanings but I also think the looming problems created by technology can’t be solved without more technology (unfortunately).

>"socialism" has worked in these countries that are majority white, homogeneous and otherwise prosperous
damn...

>utterly buttblasted boomer still tries to pretend to be hip
Go to sleep dad

i just disagree, i don't think that the u.s. couldn't do these things even without being homogeneous in population

>zoomer with daddy issues trying to be edgy
I hope some day you and your father works things out between the two of you before he dies.

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RRRREEEEEEEEEE

Not at all, but you can't leave neither.

show me one instance of a successful non-homogeneous socialist society. before you do that, your claim is entirely baseless and nothing more than dubious presumption

do you type exclusively in negatives? fucking hell. dont mind me user your post just triggered my autism

why would the non-homogeneity of the u.s. make it so that social welfare programs wouldn't work or improve anything

m.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r_nMzdTu4

social cohesion makes things like social welfare programs viable
non-homogeneous societies necessarily have lower levels of social cohesion
again, provide one instance of such a society where socialism has functioned successfully - which is not to say that it is impossible, but without any solid evidence it seems rather improbable

>It's like you don't want to be free
I unironically don't want to

canada's doing fine