Daily reminder the "doctrine" of """no-self""" is a corruption of the original Buddhist teachings on the immortal...

Daily reminder the "doctrine" of """no-self""" is a corruption of the original Buddhist teachings on the immortal (unborn, deathless) negativity of the atman promoted by our capitalist hegemons intent on the dilution and secularization of an authentic praxis of escape.

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So you are telling me Buddha was actually a Lacanian psychoanalyst

Lacan is psychologized Buddhism, to an extent

Interesting. Elaborate please. I didn't think the capitalist grip could reach even Buddhist philosophical expositions.

without getting technical, if there is nothing that achieves nirvana, there is no nirvana and the entire system collapses in on itself.

All of the more metaphysical, philosophical and esoteric teachings of Buddhism (which rather than contradicting actually complement and in a sense complete the image presented in the PC; which OP alludes to) are mostly are found in the Mahayana and Vajrayana. Theravada is mostly an extended exegesis on the Pali Canon (PC) and devotes itself to the study and perfection of the various types of meditation which can be interpreted as sanctioned by it, these practices are by themselves beneficial but taking the Theravada ontological model as complete is a mistake and can become a hindrance to genuine spiritual progress.

In the popularization of Buddhism in the west, various factions for various motivations have aligned to present Theravada as being the most logical/ideal/true Buddhism, with Zen being seen as an acceptable alternative for people who are too hip for Theravada. In most of the western literature on Buddhism written for laypeople (although there are exceptions) and in most western Buddhist meditation courses, the doctrine of no-self is invariably presented in it's most exoteric format, without much explanation of context or of the diverse spectrum of views on what anatta actually means which are found in Mahayana (the largest school of Buddhism). It has devolved into a proselytism of impotent nihilism, an insistence that YOU MUST realize that there is no self or soul silly man! you don't really exist! This led to the propagation of the idea of Buddhism as being some sort of noble and stoic metaphysical suicide, that you should become indifferent to everything and not be bothered because there is really no "you".

From this sprang the proliferation of "mindfulness" courses in schools and at major corporations, you see you shouldn't actually become upset at being forced to be a wage slave with the most hours and least paid vacations in the west because that's comes from the deluded idea that you are real, you shouldn't actually be mad about pervasive usury and the upwards theft of wealth via federal reserve created inflation because anger comes from misguided views; you see there is nothing wrong with a flood of 3rd worlders lowering wages and driving up the cost and lowering availability of housing, healthcare and education because like none of us actually exist as real beings and there is no difference between them and you. People who attached themselves to Zen just became unwilling accomplices, a bunch of bumbling eunuchs (wow like this koan so dope!?!!! check out this Alan Watts quote!!) equally unwilling to take a stand on anything or even fight back against the co-opting of Zen by corporations to sell everything from shampoo to dildos. In short, the popularization in the west of the most exoteric and lowest-level understanding of Buddhist teachings on anatta has allowed the TPTB to present Buddhism as therapy to cope with (and thus enable) late-stage neoliberalism, rather than as a noble path of spiritual progress.

>rom this sprang the proliferation of "mindfulness" courses in schools and at major corporations,


I'd like to add CBT to this as well, any negative assessment of yourself can never be conditioned by society or, god forbid, be correct, negative self-talk is always a problem of narrativization and never an investigation into the sources of these narrativizations

in a sense, the things you are talking about are all true, but delivered so exoterically as to just be corporate pap

great post btw

Non-self (anatman) is a tradition throughout all Buddhism, there's no way to spin it as a capitalist invention.

Its misinterpretation is a capitalist invention

Yeah, the no-self doctrine is more a way of realizing this deathless and primordial self, it seems to me. The point is to detach yourself from the things which are actually peripheral to the real “you”, this “you” simultaneously being an emptiness and infinite, as it were. Basically, you are not the conditioned reactions of your brain, emotions, and body, but the unchanging awareness behind these which allows them to even be perceived. But this unchanging awareness itself can’t be looked at, just like a hand can’t grasp itself or eye can’t see itself without a mirror. The realization of this creates an experience which Buddhists have variously called satori, samadhi, etc. with the experience, a lot of Buddhist writings, sermons, poetry, koans, etc actually begin to make a lot more sense.

Some good posts in this thread.

right, exactly, if there is nothing that detaches, there is no detachment, and the system collapses into incoherence. anatman describes only that which is distinguished from the mind in the process of our perceiving it, ie the field that perceives cannot be wholly identified with what is being perceived, or else that field is reduced to another one of its own objects, and that's absurd

>upwards theft of wealth via federal reserve created inflation
it's not inflation that creates inequality, that isn't the mechanism. it's literally just the transferring money from poor to rich in the form of dividends.

Not them, but the way I understand it is there is nothing "that" detaches, only the detachment-function itself. There is no "person" detaching, only "detachment detaching". The sense of there being a "person" is the illusion created by said attachment-function.

Are there any English-language books on Buddhism that don't fall into this trap, or should a Westerner not even bother with it?

The only way it is consistent throughout all of Buddhism is in the sense that it refers to the transient nature or non-existence of things like the conventional self/ego and the illusion of unique/concrete individual identity; As to what is beyond or behind this anatman of the conventional self there are a range of different views throughout Buddhism and it is these views which are conveniently left out of the dominant narrative in the west and the adoption of and drawing from this narrative when it's useful by those with power and influence.

There is also an indirect effect that contributes to inequality as well as far as I understand, in that when the banks receive the money from the Fed when they spend it or loan it out they expand the amount of money in circulation and its availability which drives up the prices for goods, services and things like homes in an artificial manner which outpaces the natural growth in wages; and this has the practical effect of causing rising living costs and making whatever money people have saved up worth less.

Read Fichte and then Hegel. Understand your subjectivity as necessary. The infinite concept is incarnated in the finite (AKA you).

If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, I've had the exact same thought before.

White people Buddhism (and Eastern spirituality in the West in general) is a product that has been shaped by the values of our hyper-capitalist, Western society and it feels like a completely de-fanged version of spirituality that fails to challenge the powers that be in any meaningful way. What is the way to find inner peace? Just be like water, man. Go with the flow. Feel detached from your circumstances and stop being frustrated by the million tiny ways you are fucked each and every day by the structure of your society. Spirituality itself is regeared as a form of therapeutic consumption to make you feel okay enough about your life to go back to work again. You'll notice people hardly ever talk about meditation for its own sake - it's always how can I use meditation to reduce my anxiety, or to feel more prepared for social functions, or concentrate to be more productive at work, or... Oh.

Shit like meditation retreats make sense when you remember that the rich look at the third world and wilderness as sites for tourism and recreation when they aren't stripping them of natural resources. Why does [techie CEO] go to live in a mudhut and do nothing for two weeks? Why does [sorority girl] go to [Ski town] every summer with her family?

What works, please? Any specjfic translations?

If you already have an understanding of the basics of Buddhist doctrine you could just begin reading through the translated primary texts and various philosophical works of all the Mahayana schools; of which there are a massive amount. "Buddhism as Philosophy" by Siderits is a good starting-point that will acquaint you with the philosophy of all the schools and from there you can decide which texts from which school you want to read. Reading the primary sources themselves are always way better than secondhand summaries. As for a non-primary text and modern book that specifically examines the various interpretations of what Buddha meant by anatta (this is also discussed in many Mahayana primary texts), the historical development of this, the factors of language etc involved, "Hinduism and Buddhism" by Coomaraswamy is good, it's mostly focused on Buddhism; the purpose of the title is that it's a reference to the climate of Hindu ideas and teachings which Buddhism was taught in the context of and are which helpful to understanding the way that him and the people during his life would have seen the context of some of the words and teachings he used.

i don't want to get super into it because it's off-topic for this thread, but here's an article on mmt: nakedcapitalism.com/2013/03/what-is-modern-monetary-theory-or-mmt.html
expanding the currency supply does cause inflation, which can be understood as a reduction in purchasimg power. but inflation can be controlled, and in any event it is not how wealth is absorbed. inflatuon eats the roi, though it can be used by, say, leveraging firms to dissolve their debts.

right, this is correct, which is what I meant by "negativity of the atman", the only thing "that" detaches is the process of detachment in and of itself

spirituality existing as a tool to perform dialectic is a pretty got damn retarded way of viewing spirituality, your criticism of religion being used by people to just reinforce and legitimize the power they exert over people is the whole point of religion, it was what people used to take personal desires and expression and stuff it into a corner to absolve people in power of direct responsibility in dominating people, now they mostly used other aspects of culure and science, hijacking eastern spirituality is just making sure all bases are covered

Thanks, I'll look into both of these.

this thread isn't a criticism of buddhism or spirituality, but of commodified spirituality

spirituality exists to be commodified

nah, accepting that commodification is unavoidable isn't saying that it is spirituality's purpose, more a side-effect of its expression time.

This sounds an awful lot like what Advaita Vedanta teaches.

>But this unchanging awareness itself can’t be looked at, just like a hand can’t grasp itself or eye can’t see itself without a mirror.
But it can, otherwise we wouldn't be aware of it.

no, the eye cannot see itself, it can only see itself as the process of seeing

if it could see itself, who or what is it that sees it?

the current expression time is anything that reinforces the current hierarchy is commodified

is that why no-self predates capitalism? Fuck off, brainlet.

But the eye can see itself, as you mentioned, in a mirror. Or any reflective surface. So fuck your analogies.

no, no-self is intended to sever our identification with what is impermanent and contingent, it does not refer to that which effects this process of disidentification

capitalism, or secularists, or whatever you want to call them, brainlets I guess, universalize this doctrine to refer to everything

it only sees itself in a mediated way, the mirror is a reflection and not the eye in its actuality.

Advaita is so based. That's what I personally align with most, though I have my own personal pantheistic doctrine too. (if that's not pretentious to say)

Realization of spiritual truth is beyond languages, and the best we can do is explain them through analogy.

Consciousness is conscious of consciousness. Consciousness consciousness consciousness, knowing knowing knowing, awareness aware of awarenessing. Vision visioning vision. Hearing hearing hearing. This is the farthest back we can go, wherein these mediums can only perceive themselves by themselves, there is nothing "behind" them to perceive them from.

Yup, exactly.

It does but you have to be careful about saying that because it incites autistic screeching among a certain sub-set of Buddhists who either completely bought into the foundational narrative of "Buddha realized the truth and refuted everything in Hinduism which is bad and stupid" or because they don't understand that saying "sounds like" =/= "is the same as". And of course within Mahayana itself there are over a dozen different views on the subtitles of that exact topic alone, but yes some of those views are very similar to Advaita.

say hi to lil Kenny KKK from Kentucky and Ardie "Anatman ain't got no soul" boy, would you?

This thread seems relevant for my question: guys, I want to create a pantheist-society? Is it possible? How do we go about doing it here in the West? I want spirituality to be universal, and inclusive of everyone. I don't want us to have to align specifically with Buddhism ot Hinduism or anything else, but to simply have spiritual understandings that are as objective as anything scientific is. I just want all of us to be recognized as Divinity, and this experience as Divine. I want the Feminine restored to equal status in society. I want to get rid of rampant capitalism and idpol and restore a sense of peace and love to our society and our world. Please help me bros, a pantheist society would restore Divinity/Transcendence without all the flaws inherent to Theism, and would be a way to repair our societies from their present state of decay...I want all races united, both genders united, all classes united, and all other divisions undone in this new Divine Society.

Sorry for grammatical and formatting errors.

a pipe dream, 99% of people have no taste or capacity for these ideas, focus on saving yourself and lead by example, there is nothing else

But everyone is spiritual by nature, and all of us would benefit from a society which is based around this very fact. And what do you mean by "saving myself", how does one do that? I only want to dedicate this lifetime of mine towards helping everyone to ascend. I have basic personal experiential grasp of certain spiritual concepts (like the nature of "identification" and how it creates our illusion of individuality, or of subject-object monism, that I want to teach to others. People will be far more moral to eachother when they realize that the other person they see, that visual-data that they see them as, is literally them). If everyone knew that we are all just a single consciousness (Atman) which has descended into specific lifeforms and identities (Jiva-atman), and could personally experience the meaning of "we are all one" instead of seeing it as a superficial and naive cliche that ignores the true nature of ourselves as independent agents etc etc etc, but was literally, metaphysically true, then so much of our societies would change. If we replace the concept of a "God" with that of "Ourselves", we restore the immanence of Divinity as well as accountability, wherein people are both fulfilled by the former and given a greater sense of personal responsibility for that latter. If reincarnation, which has many papers and researchers investigating it, became a universally recognized phenomena, people would live their present lives so much more meaningfully. If people understood our Earth is both us and for us, then we'd treat our environment so much better. Humanism removes Divinity/Transcendence from the equation. Pantheism has that while still including Humanism. I just want our societies to become that so badly.

even the buddha admitted he couldn't help those with too much dust in their eyes, people who would be receptive to your ideas would just be those who have already contemplated themselves, even if by sheer force of charisma you could wow the plebs they'd follow you the way they follow some supermarket shelf guru, ie in a completely passive, unreflective way. it won't happen. save yourself.

Pretty much this, , that people would develop an interest in these matters in the first place without being raised in it by their parents or local authorities etc already indicates they are very different from the vast majority of people who according to what level of country they live in are either far more concerning with providing basic material living/subsistence or with hedonism and distractions like video games/tv/sports/social activities etc. The best you could do is write a book explaining or showing what that might look like or how it could be achieved (Aldous Huxley's 'Island' comes to mind), but to pin your hopes on your book personally changing history is most likely going to result in disappointment. I'm not saying don't try but don't pin your hopes on it and don't let it take precedence over more important matters. Maybe also consider that a good amount of people might struggle to buy into it without all the symbolism, traditions, forms, rituals and so on that these teachings can be clothed in. The problem may not be the religious teachings themselves that currently exist but rather the forces of modernity like technology, modern economies etc.

Sounds like modern New Age horseshit. Besides, Unitarianism is already a thing.

Good points. Maybe I'll write a book on it as you said, but as you said it's unlikely to do anything. I just hate this world, honestly. We are the agents who have sown our own problems. And we are entirely capable of cleaning them up, by the same token. But I'm just a young and stupid idealist, and the reality is that our reality will not change anytime soon.

This is a completely different concept to anything New Age or Church-related. But as I conceded above, it'll never happen anyway so no point dwelling on it.

whatever forces are responsible for the current state of the world, I promise exist in you, if buried, because they exist in me, too, these things don't just happen, there is a gravity that is very real and very powerful in this world that you need to diagnose and conquer in yourself before you go worrying about others.

Great, great post. Think I've seen you on here before. You are an intelligent and informed user for this subject matter.

Budhism is wrong becuase it ignores the three axioms of existence, existence exist, a perceiver does exist becuase else you wouldn't know that existance exist and a is a. Ayn Rand is unironically better thant 90% of asian philosophy. Buddhists are just irrational mystics.

>identity statements disprove buddhism

goober

Okay. So what should we do to stop the exploitation and unfairness that is life? What do you propose to be the best way removing the wage slavery that is capitalism? Its funny how you say that westernized buddhism is just becoming a massive cope for our situation. I dont disagree that eastern traditions have been westernized and most westerners are using its practices for other than spiritual intentions. But the whole idea of being in society is a cope. Our biological existence has been to survive, nkt that survival is easy what is our purpose? Whatever you want it to be. Is humanities purpose for peace, love and unity? Yes that would be great, but thats not the purpose of humanity. You cant control things outside of your control. I mean you have a certain amount of control on how well a life you can live in regards to socioeconomic status and economic freedom, but outside of that not much. Yes, Ted is right that now we cannot even have the 'freedom' to live off the grid, off the land free from society. I mean you can, but you will probably be thrown in jail or killed. You are free to do whatever, just dont expect the consequences to be favorable towards your ideas. Stop projecting your own ideas of how things should be.

Yes, i can see how mindfullness is being used to manipulate people into becoming content with wage slavery, but that is the system we live in. We have no purpose in the end, except for maybe to love one another and not in the possesive sense. If you desire to change the system then fucking make that your purpose, figure out how what the best way would be to destroy the capitalistic system that exploits humans natural desires. What can you do? Maybe you could use the system of capitalism? Maybe use the system of capitalism to try and raise the levels of consciousness?

Like, you sound like one of those edgy communist college kids who want to fight the power! What has that ever done? Like how do you change someones beliefs? Have you ever watched spiritual teachers online trying to show people "enlightenment"? You cant make anyone believe anything other than what they believe. Tbh its funny to hear how rupert spira tells people the same shit over and over again, you are not your thoughts blah blah. He tries to explain this basic thing in different ways, so that people may just so happen form the connection in their brain. But its like, all you hear from them is further frustration. To discount people like spira and other popular spiritual teachers because they use the capitalistix system and are used by the system is ridiculous.

You will probably enjoy reading about the spinozist underground in 17th-18th century Europe. All learned people knew who Spinoza was but few actually read him and even less understood what he had to say, to be branded as a spinozist was to be declared a threat to all established government and religion.

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>first paragraph
They're still built upon the doctrine of no self. The fundamentals of both traditions are rooted in the Pali canon and its philosophical (abhidharma) section and its monastic rules, Rejecting the Pali canon means rejecting Buddhism.
Furthermore, the roots of Mahayana and Vajrayana are rather murky. One scholarly opinion is that the original schism between Sthaviravadins and Mahasamghikas happened due to disagreements over monastic rules than serious doctrinal issues. Vajrayana appeared in India ca. 8 - 9th century and shared a lot of feature with Tantric Shaivism (like mantras) before fully becoming Buddhist. Yet, it still focuses heavily on the anatta concept (Hevajra consort, for example, is named Nairatmya, without self).
Don't forget about Nagarjuna and his emptiness and his emptiness of emptiness. And the Tibetan heavy debates about the nature of emptiness, with the sect that view emptiness as something (The Jonang) being censored and eradicated.
The historical developments of the Buddha Mind take root in the Yogacara school (also a Mahayana school, and an opponent to Shunyata school) and reached its elaboration in China (Tiantai, Huayan, Zen). You're basically saying that a late development to Buddhist doctrine that reached its final elaboration almost a millenium after Buddha's death in a foreign country and under the impact of local traditions is somehow the original teaching of Buddha.
>Second paragraph
Vajrayana arrived at the same time into the West as Zen: in the sixties. To say that only Theravada and Zen are popular in the West is erroneous. More people know about the Dalai Lama than Theravada teachers.
The reason why Theravada is popular right now is because it requires less cultural baggage to deal with: no bodhisattvas, yidams, empowerment, gurus, Trikaya, bardo, etc.
But that doesn't mean that Vajrayana doesn't offer as simple methods as Theravada. There's Mahamudra and Dzogchen.
Also, I've met Theravada monks. They're hardly nihilists.And they're hardly not bothered by anything (2008 Burma uprising, Thammayut, Buddadasa, etc.)
>third paragraph
Mindfullness course in schools and corporations aim for stress release and relaxation - they're on the same level as the stretching that is called yoga. No one does them for spiritual gain, and I'm willing to bet the majority of the participants doesn't even knwo what anatta is. They don't care about Buddhism. They use mindfullness for relaxation purposes. No capitalist conspiracy theory behind it.
As an endnote, Buddhism was always about the importance of community. Yes, the have the anatta doctrine, but none of the serious practitioners ever became absolutely deatched from the world aroudn to close their eyes on injustice and suffering.

>Yfw you were born into a good family so you can skip the heresy of buddhism and use your intuition to go straight to Brahma Jnana, the best religion, as explained by the Supreme Lord in the Bhagavad Gita. Thereby becoming a jivanmukta and attaining moksha in this life, even before the (completely inevitable) destruction of this physical body which confused and lost souls refer to as the "self".

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>He still doesn't know that it is the Atman which sees what the eye sees.

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I get what you're saying, but ultimately what's the point of it all? Our societies are in such a state of decay, and we are ourselves the agents who have made it this way. I just want everyone to suffer less, to be happier, to not see innumerable posts on forums like this one of people wanting to commit suicide, etc. I just want the agents of this society to repair it, just like we earlier destroyed it.

Sounds very neat. I'll read into it. I've saved that cover, thank you.

the point is to stop identifying with the collective and collective solutions and save yourself. it's no coincidence the Egyptians associated the enlightened soul with the Sun

>Not being aware of the fact that we are in the Kali Yuga and the process of decline cannot be reversed.

But it seems so selfish to do that. I will die at the end of my life, and then be reincarnated here or another plane. But all I desire is that, while here, I help others to realize the nature of reality as spiritual, and themselves as spirit. I don't see what benefit there is for me to just shun the world and then also myself feel unfulfilled by doing so. But I still understand where you're coming from.

I'm aware of those prophecies and calendars, and they seem to correspond to our modern world quite well, but I can't simply sit idle until Kalki's arrival, assuming that will even happen. Then again, as the above anons said, my vision is a stupid pipe-dream and the best thing I can do with my life is help others in ordinary worldly ways while I'm here. That's what I'm already doing, though. Whatever. I just can't stand our societies anymore, the decay is too great.

No it isn't. You're trying to make it seem like evil capitalism is behind all the corruption of every religion, which is just fucking nonsense. Even during the Buddha's time there was a dispute between Siddharta and Hindu sages on what anatman really is.

>mfw commies and psychoanalysts think they aren't butchering buddhism as much as capitalism is
I even had communists tell me that under communism there would be no dukkha. I swear to God if i hear this one more time i am going to fucking explode.

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It is in the best interest of billionaires to reduce wealth inequality. When the fervour of revolution occurs, the billionaires flee to their bunkers, but their doctors, pilots, gardeners, entertainers, programmers, etc, etc all get eaten in the revolution, because if you own your own house you obviously stole it from the proletariat.

Unless they have AI to do all that for them...

>Mfw lifting in preparation for Kalki's arrival

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>They're still built upon the doctrine of no self. The fundamentals of both traditions are rooted in the Pali canon and its philosophical (abhidharma) section and its monastic rules, Rejecting the Pali canon means rejecting Buddhism.
The way you write this is implying that the Theravada gloss on the PC is inherently the correct interpretation and everything later an addition/innovation/etc when you don't actually know that, the PC is not a completely accurate representation of what he taught but already reflected sectarian views when it was finally written down. Large parts of it appear in the Mahayana canon with subtle differences and with additional other texts also considered important.

>Furthermore, the roots of Mahayana and Vajrayana are rather murky. One scholarly opinion is that the original schism between Sthaviravadins and Mahasamghikas happened due to disagreements over monastic rules than serious doctrinal issues.
Regardless, it still places the origins of the two groupings early enough that you can't say with certainty that the Theravada interpretation is the more correct and oldest one, especially since for whatever reason the proto-Theravada Sthavira was the minority breakaway group and not the proto-Mahayana Mahasamghika.

>Vajrayana appeared in India ca. 8 - 9th century and shared a lot of feature with Tantric Shaivism before fully becoming Buddhist.
I'm not disagreeing that Buddha didn't teach Vajrayana but for all we know Vajrayana teachings may have been accepted at first and then later merged into Mahayana only because they were consistent with the principles of stuff preserved in Mahayana that Buddha actually did teach

>criticising capitalism automatically makes you a communist
Come on now.

Don't forget about Nagarjuna and his emptiness and his emptiness of emptiness. And the Tibetan heavy debates about the nature of emptiness, with the sect that view emptiness as something (The Jonang) being censored and eradicated.
Not every school of Mahayana accepted his interpretation, other disagreed with him at the time and later on, and there were also the Tathagatagarbha Sutras some of which teach the opposite or very different teachings as him, and he didn't even know about them. The Jonang was partially eradicated through forcibly closing down some of their monasteries etc for political reasons and not through debate or refutation but it actually still survives today and is growing and the Dalai Llama is working on having it recognized as the fifth major school of Tibetian Buddhism. The Jonang built their ideas on interpreting and drawing together a large body of previous texts, are you claiming they are not valid or something?

>You're basically saying that a late development to Buddhist doctrine that reached its final elaboration almost a millennium after Buddha's death in a foreign country and under the impact of local traditions is somehow the original teaching of Buddha.
Nice mental gymnastics, the early Indian Mahayana concepts like Tathagatagarbha could very well be elaborations on principles Buddha taught, they were written down around 200 CE only several hundred years after the Pali Canon first was put in writing and could equally also reflect preexisting oral teachings passed down from Buddha's time (which is what many Mahayanists themselves would consider). Mahayana teachings about these concepts go back an indeterminate amount of time and could very well be accurate. You are promoting a sectarian and biased false history of the development of these ideas just because they also happened to become popular in China at a much later time. Scholars who have attempted to reconstruct pre-canonical Buddhism based on the language and irregularities in the PC have themselves claimed the picture that emerges is one that contains elements of Mahayana thought.

In my experience, people who use psychoanalysis to criticize capitalism are almost always communists or at least fellow travelers.