Finally got around to watching season 2 of Mindhunter. I loved season 1, found the second pretty disappointing. Season 1 had a lot of moving parts, with the building of the unit, how it was affecting Holden and his relationships, same with Bill, the trouble with the director, all with a steady bread and butter of interesting interviews and new cases every few episodes.
Season 2 largely focuses on just one case, one that is not solved conclusively as it having been the guy who actually did all of the killings, or even the majority of them. Holden is told to shut up for 8 episodes, and then when they finally use an idea of his, which is to stake out the bridges, a week later they catch the guy. There was no build up, there were no breaks in the case, it was just Holden getting told he's a retard for 8 episodes until they listen to him a single time and boom, case solved. Plus I didn't really understand the intentions of the showrunners with all the black/white relations. I couldn't tell if I was meant to hate the black people for not listening to any of the police (who were right), or feel bad for them. To me they just seemed annoying and were another roadblock but the subtitle at the end saying none of the cases had been reopened made it seem like I was supposed to sympathize with them. Bill's story with his wife and son is pretty interesting but becomes redundant, and Wendy's lesbian sidestory is fine but had nothing to it. The interviews were lackluster with Son of Sam being the only one reminiscent of last season's interesting breakthroughs. Manson was a waste of time, even though I liked the actor.
Yeah second was a big waste of time, Holden did nothing the entire season, tacked on Lesbian romance that I wouldn't mind if it hadn't just been five minutes an episode of them drinking wine then 'ok that's enough of that' and they just never see each other. Bills family life stuff was pretty good, and Manson was good. But they even made Son of Sam boring.
Jaxon Bennett
Also I want to say that I would not be disappointed if it was on any kind of regular schedule and this was just a transitional season. That said, knowing it took 2 years to come out when Fincher had no projects, and that he now has a full movie commitment means that the next season likely won't be out for at least 2-3 years. I feel like this season would go down a lot easier in a continuous viewing, going right into a season 3, but since it'll be so long before then this season felt strange.
Another gripe I have is that the real John Douglas was, at the time of the Atlanta murders, flying back and forth between investigating these, BTK, the Unabomber, and a few other more contained cases which is completely lost in the show except for Bill glancing at some BTK stuff in episodes 1 and 2. It might have helped the pacing a bit to have had progress on all of these cases going on at the same time, even if Unabomber and BTK wouldn't be solved for years. It would have broken it up so it wasn't just "Holden, shut up." until they finally listen, and he's right. Felt like they were spinning their wheels until they just allowed them to catch the guy.
Nathaniel Cox
Yeah that's the other thing, besides just ignoring Holden til the end, even the showrunners dropped his panic and anxiety issues after one episode, except a single mention in episode 8 or 9 about him "looking nervous" from Bill. I don't mind a focus on Bill and I liked his family life stuff plenty but over time it just became grating. His wife was an annoying cunt despite him not doing anything wrong, him having to be in Atlanta was literally out of his control. Brian was interesting in general but the wife's melodrama was extremely annoying.
I agree about the lesbian stuff too, I don't even mind it, it's just that there's nothing there. They drink wine together like 3 or 4 times and then Wendy leaves her for having the wrong tone of voice with her son. Then that's it. Only became relevant in one interview.
Son of Sam was pretty boring but at least it was useful information and they got him to drop his facade. Manson was good but he did nothing for them, he just seemed to be there because they wanted Manson, which is even what they say in the show.
Evan Butler
I loved the performance as Manson but it had the writing problem that already plagued the show which is making the characters retarded so they can spell things out for the audience. In the first season Holden goes from being a genius (when he's actually doing exactly what John Douglas did) to a moron that needs his girlfriend to explain everything for him.
In season 2, Holden, who has been established as being long fascinated with Manson, and owns a copy of Helter Skelter, reacts in shock that Manson claims the killings were initially done to free Bobby Beausoleil. However, Holden would have been very familiar with that claim if he actually bothered to read Helter Skelter. The writers don't know how to plausibly give the audience information without making the characters seem unintentionally stupid.
Ryder King
They just left so many open ends.
I really liked it, honestly, but it felt like it was 3 episodes missing
Brody Reyes
Yeah that seemed really weird to me. They could have easily done one of those briefing scenes before hand to explain things to people who aren't into Manson, which would make Holden not seem like a moron. What I liked most about the first season was how it had some real deep dives for true crime fans without having to explain everything for audiences, in this one it's very different.
Isaiah Adams
It was an enjoyable watch but I had so many problems with it, sadly. Wanted to love it but I just hope season 3 goes back to being like season 1.
Robert Gomez
What's even the point of the BTK segments? They only catch him 35 years later due to being dumb about floppy disk data.
Luke Murphy
Don't really know, and John Douglas had already been retired for over a decade when he was caught.
Logan Lewis
>What did you guys think Take a shot for everytime they say "progressive" in this goddamned series. The second season is pretty much just bougie liberal propaganda masquerading as a detective drama. The first season had a few hints of the creators political leanings but mainly tried to focus on psychology and a watered down retelling of how profiling was developed in Quantico.
New season is trash, made it to the end of episode 4 then just found something else to watch
It few like the pretense of it being based on the real man has been stripped away for cheap drama. Having Holden lose all interest in certain interviews and having the characters needlessly debate whether figures like Manson fit their type. The whole supposed point of their collection of data and interviews was supposed to be to record a diverse range of deviant behaviour in order to improve profiling. The idea they'd turn down a bunch of useful information is just silly and seems to exist purely to add conflict, because apparently true crime is only interesting if people are arguing.
Grayson Kelly
A point I saw an user say is it's to show that the profiling system they developed wasn't infallible as they totally got BTK wrong. Trouble is, the show doesn't really make this known to an uninformed viewer and it just comes across as pointless. Maybe given the other inaccuracies of the show they'll just fucking catch him decades early.
Isaac Hughes
The point of BTK is to show that profiling doesn't always work. Every time they mention what he might be like, they're totally wrong. Like Bill saying there is no way this guy goes to church. The FBIs profiling was held as a breakthrough at the time but in the past few decades it's come under a lot of scrutiny.
David Hernandez
Yeah exactly. I liked the first season because, like Zodiac, it was pure factual Fincher. It believed enough in the drama and intrigue of the real subject matter that it didn't need anything else. I think that's my main problem with this season. The melodrama. Not just about the interviews, the information gathered, but the blacks in Atlanta constantly giving Holden shit even though he's right, the police never listening to Holden, til they do and they catch the guy. It's all pointless and melodramatic, when just doing cold, clinical recreation accurately has worked so well in the past for Fincher.
Ian Clark
I think that's a bit silly though. The profile did have some things right. The reason it was off was that BTK was very unique in a few ways. He huge breaks between crimes and media contact, and change in MO/victims. It's strange they'd focus on one of the few exceptions, when usually profiles are stunningly accurate. Look at Douglas's profile for the Unabomber, for example: It described the offender as a man with above-average intelligence and connections to academia. This profile was later refined to characterize the offender as a neo-Luddite holding an academic degree in the hard sciences, but this psychologically based profile was discarded in 1983.
Not many characteristics listed but all absolutely spot on and specific, and correct.
Easton Young
>Finally got around to watching season 2 of Mindhunter. I loved season 1, found the second pretty disappointing. Season 1 had a lot of moving parts, with the building of the unit, how it was affecting Holden and his relationships, same with Bill, the trouble with the director, all with a steady bread and butter of interesting interviews and new cases every few episodes.
Season 1 structure is indeed way better.
>Season 2 largely focuses on just one case, one that is not solved conclusively as it having been the guy who actually did all of the killings, or even the majority of them. Holden is told to shut up for 8 episodes, and then when they finally use an idea of his, which is to stake out the bridges, a week later they catch the guy.
The idea is that they are all just learning. Is profiling, while correct, didn't really helped them get him. Instead it was just normal iterative police work. The fbi had no power and had to go through a lot of bureaucratic shit and the season actually makes a compelling case how they can't do their thing without power, and being successful in Atlanta helps them to build that power. This ain't fucking hannibal scholck. He probably killed a lot of people and a lot he didn't, and the kkk or even other pedophiles took advantage of the craziness surrounding the case and killed people in the process. The city officials/cops might have known something and buried it. There's no need to show a bad cop or flash a big sign saying corruption. How it is integrated in the story and how the families don't have a resolution for their cases is probably one of the best things about the season.
Jack Turner
>Plus I didn't really understand the intentions of the showrunners with all the black/white relations. I couldn't tell if I was meant to hate the black people for not listening to any of the police (who were right), or feel bad for them. To me they just seemed annoying and were another roadblock but the subtitle at the end saying none of the cases had been reopened made it seem like I was supposed to sympathize with them 10-12 kids disappeared and nobody really gave a shit. And by then nothing is actually solved. Of course you are supposed to sympathized with them. It's a completely fucked up case.
>The interviews were lackluster with Son of Sam being the only one reminiscent of last season's interesting breakthroughs. Manson was a waste of time, even though I liked the actor. The interviews are a bit redundant because they are indeed getting similar ideas from all of them, or like Mason, he's simply completely deranged and barely had any mental order that could help them conclude anything. And they keep learning how the process of sexual gratification can vary so much.
Daniel Sanchez
I don't need it to be falsified and wrapped up with a nice bow or anything, I'm simply saying it's really frustrating to have this conclusion where they spin their wheels for 8 episodes, listen to Holden once, then they catch him. If the point was to show the learning process or possible uselessness of profiling, then they wouldn't have made everything useless except for Holden's advice. At the very least the pacing is fucked up by this.
Adam Adams
I agree although the first season wasn't entirely exempt from this. The whole teacher touching feet segment was like a single paragraph in the book, in the show it was almost an entire episode of endless debate despite the fact the guy should obviously have been sacked. Admittedly, it still tied in thematically with Jerry Brudos but it was frustrating to see such an obvious matter dragged out to such lengths.
I honestly don't know what they were thinking with the Atlanta victim's family parts. Despite what they went through it felt almost like they were purposefully written as unlikeable. Maybe the writers expected us to side with them on the killer being white despite the show already covering how vastly unlikely that was, I don't fucking know.
Politics of the show are bizarre given the source material. Were we supposed to side with Wendy when it came to the death penalty sentencing? I assume yes given some other elements of the show being broadly leftist but Mindhunter is one of the most explicitly pro-capital punishment true crime novels I've ever read.
I agree with you user, I was just repeating one of the more plausible reasons I read why they'd include such a character, who in my opinion has no place being there.
Ethan Rodriguez
I've seen 3 episodes of season 2 yesterday.I wanted to watch the rest of the season today.Waste of time or it gets better?The first 3 episodes didn't make me feel particularly anything,not impressed or dissapointed.
Ethan Carter
I can understand and empathize with the plight of their community being neglected but at a certain point there has to be some compromise. They were completely antagonistic and combative to the police, mayor, and Holden til the end, even though he was right. Not to say Wayne did all the crimes of course, but he at least got someone who was connected to almost half the murders. I didn't find them very sympathetic because, besides the hesitant allowance of putting up a cross (which gets fucked up anyways), they basically tell them fuck you the entire time even though they're simply wrong. There's more to the crimes than just Wayne of course but it's still frustrating and not a great way to make you sympathetic towards them.
Lucas Sanders
Yeah that's why I was confused, they seem like they're meant to be unlikable but then I'm supposed to agree with them, it seemed like. It was very confusing. It's reiterated so many times that the killer is very likely not white, or at least the primary killer isn't. So the police/Holden just being attacked for looking for a black suspect constantly seemed really strange. I thought maybe I was supposed to be frustrated with them until the subtitle which makes it clear the show was telling me to sympathize with them.
Justin James
The second half is an improvement when they actually start working a case but it still falls below season 1.
Levi Sullivan
It's not 8 episodes tho, cmon. And they did take some of Holden's suggestions (the memorials, the interviews), it's just that the process of doing that shit actually takes time/resources/effort. Same with the cars, that took a lot of time and people.
Mason Kelly
As for BTK, i also have a hard time integrating those scenes in the story. He doesn't fit the profile? Idk. Right now, he's show like a looming presence who keeps killing and they can't really do anything about it. End of the day, they are always in a passive role waiting for them to fuck up and he doesn't.
Brandon Price
One thing I (really) disliked was them being told by Kemper how their profiling is only taking into account the mentality of serial killers who get caught. Wendy, Tench or Holden, they are all shown as smart characters, it's a stupid flaw in their process and they learn that from Kemper? I doubt this happened.
Carson Perez
>Wendy, Tench or Holden, they are all shown as smart characters Only half the time, which is what drives me fucking mental.
Colton Allen
The best part was Tench arguing that the gay guy wasn't responsible for his older accomplice's murders if he didn't actually act, when all that stuff was going on with Brian
Also the Wendy arc was good, but the lesbian stuff overshadows how she was getting genuine responses in the interviews over the younger FBI agent.
They were never going to satisfyingly catch the bad guy for the Atlanta murders so they shouldn't have dragged it on. Started the arc later, or spent more time using Wendy to get insights before nailing the profile and catching Williams on the bridge. The FBI politics was great too, Gunn was great, nd they could have had more pressure from up top to get results as opposed to pointless 'we know they aren't gonna catch him' scenes in Atlanta
Oliver Cox
I feel like a lot of those issues comes from the tv show format, and the need to have 400-500 minutes of content. This season could (and should) have been much shorter and focused. You could have easily made this a 7 episode season because there were no individual cases on any episode. I have a hard time criticizing this show because it's so much better than any other serial killer/crime tv show.
