Starship Troopers

They'll find a job for you, even if they have to invent one.

im a vet, that means you have to be nice to me and say Thank You For Your Service (sat in a warehouse in Dallas) guys Guys im a legit target for isis, this is why we need to wipe iran off the map. no jeff jeff!!! shit jeff dropped another fucking pallet. god dammit jeff

They actually showed it. People who got amputated become high school teacher or the front desk guy at recruit center. But they get bionic prosthetic limbs when they work for the army

On the other hand the dissident activist guy was in a wheelchair and got no prosthetic. It seems the prosthetic is something you get by working for the army. They wheelchair guy probably wasn't rejecting the army because he had no legs but he got no prosthetic for not working for army.

Could be that they are extremely expensive to purchase and the army gives them out for free to their soldiers.

But why would it "guarantee citizenship", when people outside the military seem to have all the benefits of civilization without serving the military? The way it's phrased makes it sound like it's a sort of trial by fire to be accepted into society or something.

Are we talking real life army or troopers universe army?

>Anyone who isn't a total retard can contribute somehow to a war effort.

The total retards can still can be jannies.

There's a difference in the book between a civilian and a citizen. The key one is that only citizens can vote and run for any sort of public office. There ore others, if I remember correctly in the movie one of the women wants to have a lot of children and a man is getting his college paid for by becoming a citizen.

user, it's fascism. the film depicts a fascist society. the protagonists aren't 'good guys'. like, even in the film it's said that the buenos aires thing was *revenge*, and that the military is a forever-war meatgrinter to feed people into.

im not going to call you stupid or anything, because it's a very very clever piece of filmmaking from a clever director. you should watch the film again! it's good! and also has boobs so

>What did they mean by this?
It means there are other ways. Service just guarantees it. Something that is given automatically has no value. Plus it helps societal trust that the only people that are wielding political force are those that have shown they can wield force responsibly.

>Uhm, isn't that ableist?
Nope. If you're someone that wants to serve it's illegal for them to stop you. No matter your condition is they'll always find a use for you, even if it's being a lookout in Antarctica, or lab rat for drug testing.

Based schizo

In my view veteran = seen combat

See, I've heard that angle a couple of times now and the subtext that I'm getting is that the author tried to portrait a fascist state in a neutral and objective way, that somehow got a lot more glorified in the movie, thus making it look more "optimistic" and utopian, than it actually is. That's all fine and good, but if you look at the facts of how Earth and the Military works, I'd say it's still a pretty fucking good outcome, all things considered.

Sure, the grunts in the military will always be meatshields, that's no different from any army in human history, but they still all work in a coherent and unified manner. Soldiers die en masse but they seemingly do it willingly (propagandized or not) and all for the greater good of humanity, so that the non-military people can live in peace and wealth. There's a strong code of ethics, if nothing else. The whole facsism thing doesn't sound so bad, book or movie version, unless I'm completely missing something here.

Paul Verhoeven is a hack who can't read

>The whole facsism thing doesn't sound so bad
see that's the clever thing; the film works as a raaaargh kill the bugs raargh! film, but if you sit down and digest it - arbeit macht frei, black uniforms, I'm Doing My Part!!, and all that, it's supposed to make you go wait, hold on a sec. the whole 'are we the baddies' thing.

i mean it's current year and there are literal actual nazis holding torchlight rallies in america, so it just goes to show

don't you start lol

It's not even like they die on mass by design. The first drop was a fuckup that got the fuckup responsible court martialled and replaced...
..by a black woman, no less. There is racial, or sexual bigotry in the future fascist utopia. All are equally worthless until they've done their part.

>Arbeit macht frei
A productive citizen is the lifeblood of any society
>Black uniforms
So? Looks sexy, Hugo Boss designed virtually all types of uniforms for the Third Reich, just saying
>I'm doing my part!
Strong and healthy sense of morality and loyalty

i guess it's related to how it's impossible to make an anti-war war film, because some mushbrain is inevitably going to come away from it saying 'fuck yeah that rules' instead of 'holy shit i never want that to happen, ever'

fascism is bad. this is a fundamental truth im not willing or going to debate

That's fine, you can think whatever you like, I just don't think it's inherently bad or good. It's a bit extreme, sure, but the point of a government is to bring order and protection to groupings of people. Fascism maybe taking the whole "order" thing to an extreme, inflicting on personal freedoms, but you can't deny it doesn't also come with it's own benefits, like insane efficiency. Like everything, it's not a black and white matter.

>Uhm, isn't that ableist?
Read the fucking book.

Terra federation did nothing wrong,
Suck a dick commie.

Quads of truth.

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i dont think 'people who aren't us are literally vermin and must be exterminated' is good government. in fact, it must suck pretty bad to be one of those people. there, i've said my piece and you've said yours.

you could also watch the saturday morning cgi tv show that happened, for some fucked-up probably-cocaine-fuelled reason lol

like wasn't there a toy line as well? i'm sure i remember there being a Starship Troopers toy line. like, for kids.

That's probably the most civil discussion I had on Yea Forums for years.

Regarding personal freedoms, you actually get more of them under Fascism.
With Democracy it's every Tom, Dick, and Harry that you can vote away your Freedoms.
With Fascism they've no say unless they've risked their lives to protect them.

>this is a fundamental truth

According to who, genderfluid onions creatures?

ayy lol

and its not like the Robocop films, where the sequels got more and more toyetic (flying robocop!!). who the fuck would watch Starship Troopers and think it's suitable material for a kids' toy

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In the book, those "grunts" are wearing walking tanks that can lay waste to whole cities. It's fucking awesome.

Quads of fucking truth.

>Regarding personal freedoms, you actually get more of them under Fascism.
t. clueless retard.

>"Service guarantees citizenship"
>already a citizen by birth

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Not an argument.

Citizen vs civilian. Did you even watch the movie?

Then let's start with your useless ass.
Go kys.

There is literally none of that present in the books. There are zero implications that the rights of the citizenry are being curtailed in any way. They have stricter punishments for crimes, but you still have freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. They're actually debating the merits of the old "unlimited democracies" in the classroom. The only real difference is that your citizenhood is earned instead of intrinsic.

The difference seem to be more in name any anything else.

Great post thanks for joining us.

So you are saying socialism is bad?

>no sexism
>no racism
>nobody forced to enlist if they don't want to
>actual existential threat
>humans winning
Somehow this is "bad". Why are leftists so retarded?

I think he was talking about fascism in general. But here the argument is about forcing people to join the army to actually earn the right of participating in positions of power. And the army, as it has always been is a strict line of command, you only get to give orders to the lower rank, and you get infused with that way of thinking. Not to mention that civilians are a lower class of citizen in universe. The ones that are not capable of protecting themselves.

cybernetic implants bitch prep for surgery cuz your ass is SERVING.

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You are welcome.

Buenos Aires was an inside job.

It's more than just name. Civillians don't have voting rights nor the right to hold public office.

>But here the argument is about forcing people to join the army to actually earn the right of participating in positions of power. And the army, as it has always been is a strict line of command, you only get to give orders to the lower rank, and you get infused with that way of thinking.

I don't know about the book but in the movie they test your physical and mental abilities and give you an appropriate position in the chain of command, from grunt, to officer, to scientist, pilot etc... that is a pure meritocracy.

>i guess it's related to how it's impossible to make an anti-war war film
Just make it about WW1, e.g. Paths of Glory.

They may sound alike, and etymologically speaking the words may have the same origin and meaning, but in the Teran Federation, they make a big difference between the two. It's a classification of your worth as a member of society, with the citizen being more prestigious than the civilian.

Everyone is a civilian by default. To become a a citizen (the ideal member of society) you must hold personal responsability and defend society with your life. "Service guarantees citizenship" may not be intrinsicly understandable, much like the Buddhist/Christian philosophy of the meaning of "life is suffering" or "accepting your pain", but there's wisdom within those words. The hardships of war will make you appreciate the civilian rights given to everyone, because you are the one protecting those rights, and like any hardship, it'll make you grow as a person (at least that's the plan), which includes sense of duty and sense of responsability.

No, there were plenty of roles for people unable to fight.

Wouldn't service have been pretty chill if not for the sudden mobilization due to the Buenes Aires attack

Propaganda and intention.
You don't sign up for the army and say
>Hey btw I don't really like blood can I just do some math?
Yo will go where they say, and if it did come down to it, I'm pretty sure your still expected to fight.

I sort of look at it as being a civillian in their society is having the luxury of taking your freedoms and safeties for granted.

If bugs invaded America, they'd start conscripting, which is objectively more evil than the "fascism" depicted in the movie. The only other solution is just lying down and dying. When hostile aliens exist, Starship Troopers politics are ethically optimal.

i dont know where youre from, but poppy season around November makes peoples' brainworms start writhing something fierce. 'this weather lady isnt wearing a poppy THIS IS DISRESPECTFUL TO ARE TROOPS' and all that garbage. like, people *know* about trench foot, wave after wave of soldiers walking into machine gun fire while Eton old boys sipped tea thirty miles away, etc, and yet the message is still always always always 'wow those men were so brave! christmas truce!' instead of 'holy shit that's awful let's never do that ever'

because nobody wants to be told they're wrong or the bad guys, i guess. maybe nobody actually wants to hear 'war is bad'?

(i'm sorry if this sounds disjointed.)

Relatively speaking. In the book, there's more than just the Arachnids. The Terran Federation is competing for territory with at least one other interstellar civilization. Other than that, yes, it would be pretty chill. You could end up working sanitation, in civil engineering, a policeman, a doctor, etc. - all military careers in their society.

Well, it's implied that, due to their imperialistic nautre, humanity basically started the war with the bugs, so it's not like they are 100% the bad guys in this.

>fascism

Lol are you retarded?

>with at least one other interstellar civilization

Other humans?

No. Ayys.

You can still "serve" without being a foot soldier. South Korea (mandatory military) has alternative services.

humanoid, they were called Skinnies.

Cool, any description about them? I just got the Tau from 40k in my head.

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Really makes you think huh

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pretty sure they were blue also and like 9 feet tall. They were in the animated series Rico's Roughnecks and briefly in the book.

For The Greater Good

They appear in the CGI animated series Roughnecks. I take it you haven't watched it.

Definitely recommend it. It's old but it still looks pretty damn good and it's a great series.

>fascism is bad. this is a fundamental truth im not willing or going to debate
You are beyond braindead, not because you hate fascism but simply because you would say something like this. lmaoing at u

>men and women sharing a shower

With all that testosterone? Who thought that would be a good idea?

it's literally starcraft
terran, zerg, protoss

Me.

It's fine, the only chicks in MI have less than D tits so they're honorary men.

I'm fucking jelly of Casper van Dien's god-tier genes.

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Just read the book. It's not that long and much more fun and interesting than the lame film. It's a massively enjoyable boys own romp with dudes in robot suits equipped with flamethrowers and nuclear rocket launchers.

Watching Bold and Beautiful last week... fuck Denise is looking oooooollllllllddddd

>lame film

Take that back.

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youtu.be/Yh8qd0VKPAE

It's weird how they made a 3D CG anime sequel with Hermione Granger as the villain

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*hot

Rico's father is a trillionaire without having served. Is that not a position of power?

Emma Watson is fucking ugly and her smug face makes me want to punch her stupid face and never stop. Why do people find this fucking shitcreature so hot?

lol wtf is this trailer

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guess is counting blades of grass for you son

YUH WANNA LIVE FOREVUH!?

Yes?

>Hugo Boss designed virtually all types of uniforms for the Third Reich
Stop with this meme, he was just one of the first MANUFACTURERS of it, he didn't design any of them

This. I think most nazi uniforms look stylish, but Hugo Boss didn't design them he just produced them.

So someone working FOR Hugo Boss was designing the uniforms while Hugo Boss manufactured that. Literally same thing.

>i ratter have my brain eaten by bugs than serve a facist governament
Imagine being this stubborn

It means you're a faggot making a polb8 thread

No, 2 members of the SS and NSDAP designed them and contracted Hugo Boss and a few other places to produce the uniforms, Hugo Boss employees did not have anything to do with design at all

The designer of the black SS uniforms didn't work for Hugo Boss, he was an SS officer that designed a lot of other nazi items, like sabers and daggers. It was probably like that for most of the other clothing.

Was it Hermann Göring by any chance? Guy was a styler.

its a good day to die

Goering wouldn't have gone for black, he'd have made some ostentatious statement piece for the uniform

Give me one good reason why the right to vote should be given instead of earned. Not saying it necessarily has to be through military service or any kind of service for that matter, just through something that aids the country like taxes. Those that pay taxes get the right to vote, those that don't don't get to decide how the country is run. That encourages people to get jobs and punishes welfare leeches.

Sales tax means everyone pays tax idiot, unless they steal everything

No, it was some other guy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Diebitsch

>Uhm, isn't that ableist?
Actualyl not at all.
You had to put in civic service to become a citizen, but the mobile infantry wasn't the only choice. You could be a meter reader, cop, work at the DMV, etc. The government was obligated to find a place for you if you sought citizenship.
In the book they explain that they put the triple amputee at the front desk of the MI specifically to scare off as many people as possible since it was so expensive to train and maintain the army, and they would rather place that person literally any where else.
The book spends a lot of time on the politics and sociology of the world, which has always been Heinlein's favorite stuff the expound on.

I meant income tax, should have specified.

Why? Income tax in particular, I mean.

Based.

Document No. 1708-PS: The program of the NSDAP stated that: only members of the German race can be citizens (Jews, specifically are denied citizenship), and that non-members of the race can only live in Germany as registered ‘guests’. Point 23 stated: "We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.[18]

The poppie is to show respect to the men, your inability to separate them from something you dislike is very indicative.

>Give me one good reason why the right to vote should be given instead of earned
Because you're still subject to that government, and the only thing they would need to disenfranchise someone is to make them lose their job/income.
There's a wisdom in enfranchisement by default if your goal is a representational democracy. It prevents those people with power from holding onto it by freezing out any element they don't want to acknowledge. That's how you get revolutions and coups.

people can't admit she peaked at 13/14 sexually

unfortunately its impossible to separate 'im sad that those men died in a stupid pointless war' from 'SPORT ARE TROOPS are cuntry did nothing wrong blitz spirit' flag-waving garbage.

so, i dont wear a poppy. heck, i don't need to wear a poppy. im sad that wearing a poppy a performative holier-than-thou thing.

heck, id say that the people screaming at weather ladies for not wearing a poppy, are the ones unable to separate good thing ('war bad') from stupid thing ('reeee person on telly not wear poppy reeeee').

Because you're sending a portion of the money you earn to the government for upkeep of the country. Sales tax is basically unavoidable, but people are always trying to find some way around income tax. This way the tax actually gains them something significant. It encourages people to work and to find work early, meaning only the determined get higher educations in college and the like which solves the "overqualification" problem many 1st world countries are facing where they don't have enough people for basic menial jobs. Like I said before it's also an encouragement for people on welfare to stop draining money and start giving it back.

>Sales tax is basically unavoidable
Lol if you earn enough tax is basically optional. It's basically why Zuck, Musk, Cook etc deserve to be guillotined

things in the book like the explanation of earned value made me think it was a manual for acting like a human being

not that that's a bad thing

That's a valid point I guess. Although I don't really see how a government could completely shut down someone's income unless it controls production.

He just portrayed fascism as what it is.

Fascism is order and a structured society. But limited freedom for any citizen and a glorification of all things militar and military life.

>Although I don't really see how a government could completely shut down someone's income unless it controls production.
violence (or the threat of)

>But ... a glorification of all things military and military life.

So? Humans are warlike by nature, nothing wrong with that.

>Because you're still subject to that government
Yeah, but whether you have a vote or not is literally your choice. It’s the difference between a right and a privilege. Imagine the chaos that would result if driving a vehicle was a right. Now realize that by making franchise an intrinsic right, you’re letting everyone have a hand on the steering wheel of society.

Do you blame people for exploiting the system, or do you blame the system for being exploitable?
I've always said if you want to see real changes made in any government, the first thing you need is massive tax and election reform. I've always liked the idea of line item taxation. You still pay taxes, but you have the option of choosing where your money goes. Are you a pacifist that thinks too much money is spent making bombs and guns then you don't put money into the military. Live up north where roads get chewed up by the weather, put more into infrastructure. Live in a place with a depressed economy, fund development and social programs, etc.

I'm not talking about an autocratic or totalitarian government though, I'm talking about basically the same one we have now but with limited voting rights. Sure the government now gets up to a lot of shady shit, but targeting people wouldn't go over well with anyone.

Because it's morally right for me to pay into some things, even if i don't get immediate results that benefit me and me alone. My house isnt on fire but part of what I pay goes to the fire service. I still pay for people to go to school, and for hospitals and doctors even though i'm not sick right now. Etc.

>I'm not talking about an autocratic or totalitarian government though
My dude what do you think fascism *is*

I won't fall for your naturalist bullshit. But focusing on practical issues, the problem arises when you have nothing to wage war upon. In Starship Troopers all the human race has been united, what happens when/if they manage to genocide all the insects and the ayys? What will the massive militar industry do?

>My dude what do you think fascism *is*
I never advocated fascism though, just the idea of earning the right to vote instead of it being given.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc

I never noticed this

They'll create proxy nations to wage fake wars against. Humanity will always need a common boogey-man, or else it will turn onto itself. It doesn't matter whether you like it or not, that's how we are and if you want to prevent cultural decline, you'll have to come up with ways to keep us engaged and united.

>Humanity will always need a common boogey-man, or else it will turn onto itself.
And what qualifies you to speak on behalf of humanity

>They'll create proxy nations to wage fake wars against.
If the only reason you have to defend such retarded waste of resources and manpower is a naturalist fallacy based on your ass, perhaps fascism isn't that good user.

>didn't advocate a dictatorship
>didn't advocate complete government control
>didn't advocate suppression of opposition
>advocated earning the right to vote (what fascist government has ever had that?)
>this means I'm pro fascism
You wot m8?

It's our tribalism nature, even within an extremely coherent group it's piss easy for people to form splinter-groups on the most minor traits (like "all us blue-eyed soldiers in this squad are inherently superior to those brown-eyed guys"). Shit can spiral out of control real quick.

All I'm saying is conflict is a law nature, and just ignoring it won't do you any good in the long run.

OK: i'm sure in complete isolation, devoid of any context, the Those People We Don't Like Don't Get To Vote Or We Shoot Them law doesn't mean that society is necessarily fascist

>All I'm saying is conflict is a law nature
So was dying of the flu.

No, what gives you the right, or qualifications, to speak on behalf of all six billion people on this clump of mud.

oh right it's that thread again. Yea Forums walts are displaced in time to the starship troopers milieu, armed forces develop huge overnight backlog of applications to join the hairdressing and manicure corps

>you can't predict human behaviour based on 2000 years of recorded history

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When did I mention shooting people or deciding the right to vote based on whether or not I agree with someone you schizophrenic? Anyone can vote so long as they pay income taxes. That was my proposition. I said nothing about limiting it in any other way.

>2000

More like 3000 years, give or take.

IIRC it also isn't thebonly route to citizenship, it's just a guaranteed one

Most of Heinlein's writing all takes place in the same universe.
IIRC humanity heavily colonizes the stars, steam rolls over any other intelligent life they find, eventually earth becomes less important and becomes an overcrowded polluted hell hole that becomes forgotten to history.
Most of the worlds are founded by staunch individualist pioneer types who are naturally distrustful of governments and prefer to go it alone so there's a constant frontiersman attitude. Any time a planet gets populated enough that strong governments start to rise out of them people fuck off to find new worlds, and it all starts over.

I'm just thinking, any society that arbitrarily denies people the vote is probably profoundly fucked-up and I wouldn't want to live there

That's basically how the Imperium started in 40k. Terra was turned into a Mars-like hellhole with no natural water left, pollution clouding the lower parts of the planet in thick layers of smog and tens of millions of cultists and worshippers pilgrimaging to the holy temple to die in a fire just to keep demons from immediately overrunning the planet.

If you're into Warhammer 40k, this movie is literally;
Imperium Vs Tyranids

Buenos Aires means 'good air'

>thinks "war is bad mkay" is some kind of unique insight or unpopular opinion

You must be 18 to post on this site

youtube.com/watch?v=3PbdyJ_ybSI

How is it arbitrary? If you don't directly contribute to the country you don't get to decide how that country is run. Seems pretty fair to me. It's not like I'm limiting it by the amount of tax paid.

That's just a numbers/density problem. Despite the fact that we're technologically in the space age, our biology hasn't caught up yet. People are still social primates, and our monkey brains can only handle knowing x-amount of people before the whole "A million dead is a statistic" thing kicks in.
There is an optimal community size that humans are most happy in. There's actually been studies showing that people living in big cities actually develop a psychosis just from being around too many people all the time. It's just a problem hard wired into us as organisms. It's the underlying reason most messianic figures are infinite wells of empathy.

The cooks and chaplains had to fight in the book if you were crippled you would most be put on some terraforming bullshit.

>If you don't directly contribute to the country
The problem is identifying the right metric that isn't just boxing out "people that disagree with me."
There are a lot of ways of contributing to your community that aren't something you can put on a number line.

>dancing around dictionary definitions of 'arbitrary'
Dude come on, I'm sure you understand me just fine even if you disagree with me

>There is an optimal community size that humans are most happy in.

Yes, it's 200. I'm not even kidding.

>There is an optimal community size that humans are most happy in.
Yeah so fuck off

Also, you, you're number 201. Sorry, can't help it, biology. Fuck off

>But why would it "guarantee citizenship", when people outside the military seem to have all the benefits of civilization without serving the military? The way it's phrased makes it sound like it's a sort of trial by fire to be accepted into society or something.
Federal service is intentionally made difficult, dangerous, uncomfortable, and poorly paid in order to weed out people who are motivated by personal gain and would use their political power for corrupt personal advancement or the advancement of particular factions/classes. The Federation's justification for restricting voting to citizens is to ensure only people who have demonstrated that they actually give a fuck about humanity as a whole are allowed to exercise the violence of the state. They argue that a person's educational, class, wealth, or hereditary status is irrelevant, and by limiting franchise to those with proven moral status, the state will act more justly and responsibly.

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What's your problem, man? We're just trying to have a discussion here. 4shame.

I only care about 200 people precisely and, well, today's your unlucky day

Plenty if people I disagree with pay taxes though.

Literally working any job already contributes to the country.

>user, it's fascism. the film depicts a fascist society.
no it is not.
The Terran Federation in Starship Troopers is an interstellar constitutional democratic republic. A constitution limits and describes the powers and responsibilities of government, and citizens vote for representatives. The main difference between their society and ours, is the distinction between citizens and civilians. Civilians have all the normal rights and protections of a liberal democracy, except that they cannot vote. Voting is restricted to citizens, people who complete 2 or more years of federal service. Federal service is generally used for public works projects or military service such as space janitor, terraformer, desk jockey, starship pilot, or mobile infantry. All people are guaranteed the right to become citizens, and the government is compelled to find something useful for them to do in their service without regard to race, religion, sex, class, disability status, or any other identity group.

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So from what I gathered from this thread is that in the Teran Federation, people are allowed to vote.

How the fuck is the in-universe government consdiered fascist then? I'm pretty sure voting on anything is part of any fascist ideology.

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isn't* part

Because the things we see in the film, like 'arbeit macht frei', black uniforms, and a society that revolves around the military in order to be a full member of that society, is pretty dang fascist-y

Starship Troopers was specifically written as a riposte against activists that were agitating against nuclear weapons testing during the late 50s. It was published only a few years before the Vietnam War became a major global crisis; thus, its reception and subsequent movie adaptation should be understood within that context. According to Heinlein, the book’s publication and awards “enraged” the activists, because it opposed much of what they advocated: the book is pro-military at a time when large parts of the university literati were violently opposed to all things related to the armed forces. As a science-fiction work, it has a high opinion of physical science, technology, logic, and mathematics at a time when many movements (e.g. hippies, anarcho-primitivists, Heideggarians, environmentalists) viewed technology and science as sources of evil in the world. In the 60s and 70s, the debate between communism and capitalism was still hotly contested, and several discussions in Starship Troopers place it solidly in the capitalist camp. It is also contemptuous of the social sciences, which often intersect with the previously mentioned factions. Simultaneously, trends in the field of literary criticism provided these factions with the epistemological tools necessary to lie about the book for political capital.

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also the 'we must exterminate the Other in the forever-war (that we either started or are partially responsible for because we're assholes)' thing

Militarism.
Most people think that militarism fascism.

Splitting hairs with 'isms'

One literally doesn't mean the other, brainlet.

if you had read the book, and werent and ignorant faggot, you would understand that the bug psychology is so alien that the two races dont even know how to do diplomacy with each other. the federations goal int he war is to make the bugs surrender and spends alot of time trying to figure out how to make them do so. they do not want to exterminate the bugs.

you are wrong and stupid.

I don't really care, given they're both garbage for weenies on the internet desu

literally none of that was in the film, though.

I mean the ending of the film was quite literally 'we have captured the Big Bug and we can now enslave it for our own means, hooray'

the federation has never even SEEN a brain bug you ignorant nigger. you cant do diplomacy with mindless drones. the entire point of the second half of the movie was to capture the political leaders of the bugs and learn about them. you stupid fucking faggot whore.

t. civilian

The skinnies were the proxy if I remember. Both sides used them as middle men before the cold war escalated.

>the entire point of the second half of the movie was to capture the political leaders of the bugs and learn about them
Learn about them by shoving that (presumably painful) thing into the bug, right.

like that's quite literally propaganda you're regurgitating. We just want to learn about you! (zzzap) We want to know more! (slice slice dice, skreee)

>the book is pro-military at a time when large parts of the university literati were violently opposed to all things related to the armed forces.

Fucking hippie commies

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sort of.
the skinnies were a client race of the bugs untill the federation managed to turn them to their side.

correct. thats why the federation is lied about so much. literally lying hippie communist faggots.

Well they weren't gonna get answer from the thing by tickling it. They treated it like it would treat humans, given the situation.

Underrated post imo.

Ends justify the means, huh

>learn about by a shoving a painful thing in it
>he forgot about the scene where the brain bug shoves a proboscis into a human and sucks its brain out for the same reason

What are you, a fucking bug rights activist or something?

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>Learn about them by shoving that (presumably painful) thing into the bug, right.
oh no! one brain bug has to endure some pain so that the races can talk to eachother and make peace. meanwhile 10s of millions of people and bugs are dying in war.

you are weak faggot.

>untill the federation managed to turn them to their side.
From what I remember they worked with either side just to avoid getting their cities schwacked. I think they were supposed to be stand-ins for korea/vietname/southeast asia and the bugs were Red Chinese.
It's been a long time since I've read the book though.

Maybe, bear with me here, but maybe both sides are equally garbage and there are no 'good guys'.

Like of course that doesn't justify anything, nothing does, but still

correct.
they are kinda like the minor states in WWII that would switch sides as soon as they were overun by the nazis/communists

The Martians literally sudokud because they saw the manifest destiny of the human race.

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Oh no, the fascism-defender is calling me weak. Oh noooooo i am undone, lol

Nigger I don't like fascism but if in a "insectoids vs humans" debate you take the insectoid side there's something seriously wrong with you.

I think I'm perfectly justified in calling the fictional society in the make-believe movie a bunch of assholes, because of all the asshole stuff they did.

except i am defending a liberal constitutional democracy, not a fascist state. you are simply lying no with baseless and wrong personal attacks. pathetic.
i win.

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Assuming Buenos Aires was not an inside job, that's a huge as fuck casus belli right there.
After that, all the humans did was 100% justified.

>because of all the asshole stuff they did.
such as?
reminder: your emotions are not a valid argument

>hehehe cant outthink me, I'm a based centrist hehe
Grow a spine

I wonder who could be behind this post?

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Stepping back, and again bear with me it's been years since I watched the film, but I'm pretty sure that Earth is the villain. Humans stomp bugs, bugs are like 'what the fuck man', humans are like 'fuck you squish squash motherfucker', bugs are all 'lol eat meteor bitches', humans are all 'WHAT THE FUCK MAN THIS IS UNFORGIVABLE'

and, well, we all know at what point in this timeline that the movie begins

Like Protoss but less advanced than humans. They were allied with the Bugs first but later switched side with us after we nuked some of their cities.

All the humans did was colonizing planets near the insectoid sphere of influence.
The initial conflict was always the insectoids purging a human planet on the outskirts of the Federation.

Assuming the propaganda information the movie reveals is 100% true, humans were in the right. Obviously that's the fun part of the movie: wondering whether it's actually truth or just propaganda.

the bugs psychology is so different from humans that it is likely that they do not even understand that the federation does not have control over every human being. thus, it is possible that the bugs thought the mormon colonies were an intentional encroachment that warrants a full scale holocaust war in response.

Fair enough. Although again, the only source of information we have in the film is unreliable, so who knows.

but nobody ever even considers talking to them, one point the movie makes

People seem to forget that 99.99% of the bug race are mindless drones, being controlled by nothing else but a hive mind or their insectoid instincts. You couldn't negotiate peace with a bug because it literally doesn't even have the brain capacity to understand the concept of peace, or even free will to begin with. That's why it was so important to capture the brain bug, because they were the only ones possibly possessing some form of elemental intelligence that would make communication, as basic as is, possible.

was meant for It's like yelling at a tree and wondering why it won't move out of the way.

They're a race of hivemind insectoids. They captured some and ran tests on them and they all proved that you cannot reason with the grunts.
That's why they focused on finding the masterminds, which they captured.

you totally need to read the book.
the entire society is explained decently in it.
its actually really good too.
youtube.com/watch?v=EOQMpb_R41Y

they have only encountered warriors and workers, which are incapable of independent action. the book states explicitly that the warriors are psychologically incapable of surrendering, and that workers are more akin to biological machinery. thus the entire plot of the 2nd half of the movie is to capture a brain bug.

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we're talking about the film, dingus

There's no one for them to talk to though, in the movie at least.
They know there are planets with bugs on them, and every time they've entered their territory they get attacked.
They engineer a situation where the bugs attack a human settlement and false flag an attack on earth as a casus belli.

It's explicit in ST, two year term of civil service in either the military or some other component of government. Non-military service was just considered to be way more shitty.

in the movie too, the humans have never encountered any bugs with any kind of intelligent behavior or ability to communicate. remember the scene with the two debators? if you dont know what you are talking about, you really shouldnt argue with me.
youtube.com/watch?v=xKk4Cq56d1Y

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That source, even in the movie's universe, isn't reliable though

Bugs have no diplomacy user.

>Musk

You want us to die on this rock you Luddite?

Like the whole 'swivel-eyed screaming loudmouths passing as political debate' thing is supposed to clue you in as to whether it's reliable

why? you have no basis to declare it uncredible. every newcast they have made in the movie is factual and honest, and accurately represents even disasterous news, like the humiliation on klendathu.

If you wanted to be the sky marshal you had to achieve the highest rank in the MI and Fleet, starting from the ground floor of each.

>white man unreasonable and retarded
>old woman the voice of reason
Can't believe I almost fell for this pozzed SJW bullshit.

Why do you think they had the 'I'm doing my part! (kids squashing bugs) I'm doing my part! (kids wearing body armour, holding a gun, grunts laugh)' newsreel thing. What does that tell you about the values of that society. From there, what can we reasonably infer about their attitude to the truth, and honesty.

Once you realize that the bugs are a metaphor for "Jews", then it all makes a lot more sense.

Oh you

>free speech
>no conscription
>no racism
>democracy
>non citizens can be super rich Harvard graduates
>f-f-fascism!

How can people be this stupid?

>i dont like it! my feefees dont like some of their casts.
your emotions are not a valid argument. you and people like you are making pure bullshit arguments based on your emotions.
>fascist!
>war of extermination!
>guns bad!
>military bad!
none of which are based on a rational examination of the content of the book or the film. its honestly fucking sad.
nothing about "im doing my part" makes them an unreliable source.
furthermore, even top secret military intelligence officers were unsure of bug intelligence until the invasion of planet P. there are multiple, independent sources in the movie that prove the federation has not encountered brain bugs yet, and does not know how to do diplomacy with he bugs.

you are fucking wrong.
so wrong that you are the opposite of correct.
and yet your emotions and politics have blinded you to that fact and drive you to keep spewing bullshit.

its fucking sad.

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To the leftist anything that doesn't resemble communism is automatically fascism.

What the fuck lol

what if i am a total retard

hello welcome to Yea Forums!!!!! (trombone.wav)

You can be the guy in the barrel

the numbers don't lie

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you can still be a medical guineapig for testing new drugs.

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Based.

I mean, that guy's living his best life, and was presumably on TV and stuff.

ITT: nobody reads books

Besides me there are at least 2 other book fags in here.

Go back to Yea Forums nerd.

You write like a poof

>living his best life

how about you think for yourself instead of regurgitating tired buzzwords

Have you ever been in a race on TV? I haven't

The left were trying to smear this book as some kind of sci-fi Mein Kampf (and Heinlein as a Fascist) since the day it came out as it's critical of communism. The movie is the final culmination of that, with it re-written as explicit Fascist propaganda. The movie was very ahead of its time in that regard.

I love Starship Trooper
youtu.be/DKftiJS30Cs

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No shit

I laugh when people think the humans are the good guys

In the book they literally nuke a different aliens water supply just cause

Books are shit. There's a reason why TV and movies are so popular, it's the golden standard of storytelling.

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No need if we can populate other worlds.

Just shut the fuck up if you don't know what you're talking about retard,

And videogames add interaction making them the superior medium

Interaction isn't a form of storytelling.

based Yes poster

>people who aren't us are literally vermin and must be exterminated
this just seems like a strawman. i don't think it follows that an ordered, efficient society where you've got to pass some bar of competency in order to vote necessarily means you're going to go all bloodthirsty and kill everything that isn't you.

you specifically are arguing against a loose grouping of ideas you've made yourself. you're saying "this is fascism. fascism is evil. therefore every aspect of these "fascist" systems are therefore evil." you've got a close-minded view of the conversation being had in this thread.

They drop nukes on them because nukes are their only outs. If they only lose one soldier for every ten thousand bugs, the bugs still come out ahead.

true, but also good.

Half the USA defense budget is paying salaries of support staff that never see a lick of danger

god, i fucking hate this close-minded response. and it's literally ALWAYS commies spouting this nonsense.

>everything that isn't me is fascist

fuck off. your bullshit system has been proven to be a genocidal, impractical, selfish, destructive system a million times over. you are wrong and you need to expand your horizons or you'll bring your rotten concepts to life where you live, which i think you understand deep down will kill you.

Rent free lol

fuckin A

wonder why the commies ignored this post?

if you've got to use words like "fascist-y", maybe you're overgeneralizing. black uniforms are now fascist? you're fucking insane.

Fascism is bad.

But even in the ST movie the language and uniforms are just visual trappings, their society is still objectively a Constitutional Representative Republic, IE a fundamentally democratic institution in which representatives taken from the population come together and vote on or argue over policy aiming at an undefined but acknowledged common good, their powers to legislate and create policy being constrained by a founding document which lays out the intent of that society's founder's intentions for it and explicitly how the division of powers between people and state and other institutions aught to be handled. Fascism (socialism) is generally an autocracy in which a small party of individuals under a supreme leader with absolute power creates all policy, fascist nations are often entirely unrestrained by a constitutional document restricting the power of the state, fascist governments are explicitly socialistic (commanding and redistributing resources and labor for a highly specific conception of the common good) and most if not all major components of the society are nationalized in service of this goal. Citizens often have little to no influence over this system except at the start when they may have been convinced to democratically initiate such a government, no member of society has equal legal treatment as the autocrat/s make individual decisions about how individuals aught to be treated legally so that it most benefits the state and it's perceived common good.

The Terran Federation is practically nothing more than Athenian democracy, except instead of the hereditary and economic elite being those entrusted with the powers of the state, it's those civilians who have become citizens through either military or civil service.

I'm not reading any of that lol

Well, I appreciate that you are honest enough to admit you're a fucking brainlet with the attention span of a mayfly. Here's a TL;DR, the Terran Federation is a slightly modified version of Athenian Democracy, about as far from Fascism as it's possible to be while still having a government exist at all.

>doesn't understand satire
>calls people who do retarded

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I think you misunderstood the film; the humans are bad guys. They're a bad guy government.

So the film is meant to be criticizing liberal representative democracy?

No, fascist governments who go to war with bugs from outer space

The film was written by a guy so butthurt about theNazis he refused to read the source material. He made a satire of fascism about a non fascist government.

>has resorted to "bad guy bad" argument
i think this guy is broken.

The book is shit.

But the Federation aren't fascists, even purely within the context of the book, their economy isn't socialistically planned, they don't draft people into war, signing up is purely voluntary. Rico's family is openly critical and disdainful of the government and show no fear at all in doing so while under most fascist systems they'd be strongly compelled not to speak out against the party even in private. While they do employ propaganda, so does every other form of government with any ability to influence media and unlike most propaganda nothing the Federation broadcasts put out is actual any kind of overt lie.

Why do you think they're fascists, because some of their high ranking officers wear swanky black coats? Is fascism just a dress code to you?

Purely within the context of the movie, my bad.

Because when they get told and they can't twist the meaning of the other person's argument, they just piss off.

I don't necessarily disagree with this but paying taxes shouldn't matter, filing your taxes should. I've met people who hadn't filed their income taxes in over half a decade

NPH does

I agree, although I do think some form of manual labor should be involved at some point, even if it's just lifting and stacking papers in a government office or something (obvious exceptions for those with physical disabilities but the will to work somewhere), I'll still play devil's advocate here. It could be argued that a government could arbitrarily define the requirements for voting to exclusively favor itself, IE: "You can vote if you're loyal to the party" with loyalty having such a broad definition that it's basically more like "You can vote as long as you vote to support our decisions". It also does have some level of risk for creating slowly growing but eventually serious social separation between civilians and citizens, as has been demonstrated numerous times humans and all other primates are all powerfully driven by an instinctual desire for fairness regardless of consequences, even if there is a perfectly rational explanation for why some people get to vote and others do not, the vote-nots may (especially if exposed to the right propaganda) begin to powerfully resent those who can vote which may lead to social turmoil. As we can see now though, even though everyone who's an official member of society can vote now, that doesn't stop propagandists from stoking other kinds of resentment so I don't think that's a very strong case against service guaranteed citizenship.

it's difficult to be an angry vote-not when the entire argument you'd need to put forward is "serve and you vote". it's totally voluntary and very different from the "fascism" that people are arguing against in here. i really think it boils down to pride, efficiency, will to live and swanky uniforms. if you have those things, you are "fascist". then the argument against "fascism" begins with ethnic genocide even though that's not a part of the government described in any way. you know, strawman tactics.

that's not you of course, you're just playing devil's advocate. you're alright fren

Nigger they had handicapable people in the Federal Service.

Sargon of Akkad ruined this film and book for me.

Why? Is this the same reasoning as "I hate Jordan Peterson because people on Reddit like him"?

that doesn't sound that bad

Did anybody notice in the propaganda segment where the bug tears up the cow, they (poorly) attempt to censor the cattle gore, but show the mangled corpses in the mormon settlement completely uncensored?

It was okay. Not Heinlein's best work, but not bad.