Give me 1 (one) reason he shouldn't have remained King

Even ignoring that, imagine if he had at least tried to be a good father to Joffrey.

Robert being in massive debt is something that makes little sense. He had to fight only one brief war which wrecked Lannisport but nothing else. Why so much debt? It's impossible that he was holding enough tourneys, or even could, to run up all that debt. More likely Robert inherited the Targaryen's debts and his poor choice (in retrospect) of Master of Coin exasperated the situation.

Robert's rule was a golden age.

One reason is that he died after getting gored by a Boar.

I don't remember the details but it was LF running up debts or mismanaging money or something along those lines. Also have to think rebuilding after a war would have been costly.

Know what they should have done to justify Dany wanting to burn King's Landing? Have Gendry lead her ground forces and when he enters the city the small folk mistake him for a young Robert Baratheon and start cheering for Robert and House Baratheon. Dany hears this and it triggers her.

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He was going to break the crown with debt in less than 10 years. He would probably have died anyway because at least 7 different powerful, independent conspiracies to assssinate him (or that involved it) were already in progress. All with different ambitions and timings (Cersei, Doran, Baelish, Varys/Illyrio, Baelor, Euron, Jon Connington) and probably many more...

Joff was always going to grow up to be a sociopath. How do you guide someone like him who is murdering small animals when he's six? Some kids are born fucked up and will grow up to be fucked up people. The best you could hope for with Joff is a sadist with some measure of self control. That's still a huge gamble.

So ultimately, Robert should have just been more observant of his court. Really, he probably should have sent Jaime to the Wall. He'd still have Cersei as a hostage to keep Tywin in check that way. I suppose at the time he and Jon Arryn probably figured that Ser Jaime remaining in the Kingsguard was a way of giving Tywin an alliance but not giving him everything he wanted (he desperately wanted Jaime back to be his heir).

Sure, but the people paying for rebuilding would be the lords whose holdings were damaged in some way. I don't think Martin ever thought the idea through so in later years it is fans who have started to pin the blame on Littlefinger scheming. As well, again, I stress that the Iron Throne was already in massive debt when the Targs were still in power. The Dance, conquests (some of which failed), the Blackfyre Rebellions, and a series of bad (or short lived) rulers had caused a lot of problems.

>no you all should LOVE ME!
>MEEEEEEEEEEE

yeah its still forced and retarded. I'm not a Dany fan but she deserves better than this...

IIRC he spends most of it on feasts and massive piss up's with the lads, the tourneys he did throw also had extravagant prizes no one else would have put up

Yeah, but people have run the math and it just doesn't work out. Even if he held a grand tourney every day it wouldn't be enough.

I think it's a marginally better idea than what we got. Also funny. I over all agree with you though. I think Dany was always somebody going to cause great harm to Westoros, but I never believed she'd be doing so intentionally. Rather I thought that after her conquest it was possible King's Landing would ACCIDENTALLY burn down due to all the wildfire her father stashed away, and I figured that in the aftermath her horde of Dothraki would cause unending problems in Westoros for generations to come.

That is absolutely retarded. Also, Gendy's a blacksmith and not a general.

>I don't think Martin ever thought the idea through so in later years it is fans who have started to pin the blame on Littlefinger scheming
In one of Tyrion's chapters in Storm he's baffled by Littlefinger's byzantine accounts system as the new Master of Coin, with the implication that Littlefinger's been embezzling tax funds to finance his spies and various intrigues.

Sociopaths can actually be worked with, with proper upbringing they can do the sort of morally difficult jobs others have difficulty with, hence why it's said that sociopaths are suited to being CEOs or politicians. Certainly beating a child (and while gutting a kid is obviously a bad sign some kids do "naturally" hurt animals without turning into monsters as adults) to unconsciousness doesn't help a situation. And the books/show that Joff wasn't an idiot and he did tend to follow certain codes of conduct or at least logic so he wasn't a lunatic.

Yeah, a large part of her character arc is dealing with the fact that she has no home. Her idealized vision of a home she got from Viserys is a lie. The common people and the vast majority of the lords are not waiting for her with open arms. She doesn't belong there, she never even set foot there.

Imagine if Cersei activates the secret stach of wildfire while she flees Kings Landing and puts the blame on dragon fire. While she exiles, the whole continent would turn against Dany for her hedious war crimes.

he died

his advisors were literally stealing money from him and the kingdom and he was too lazy/irresponsible to do anything about it

No one cared about Tywin's war crimes or a bunch of other characters, they already used wildfire against Stannis so people would know about it and green fire is pretty obvious, that's pretty dumb too

>But AOIAF is realist--
medium.com/migration-issues/westeros-is-poorly-designed-3b01cf5cdcaf

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Viseryon has green fire. A lot of common folk and lords despise Tywin/The Mountain, they just keep quiet out of fear. You are wrong.

True, but it's low-hanging fruit. Might as well point out that decade-long winters would kill off everyone that wasn't a Wildling

This plus it would likely just look like a massive fire explosion to most people in the capital, easily blamed on a dragon. Most of the people in the capital are just peasants so even if they didn't take the idea that it was a dragon, nobody would really care. For people outside the capital they'd immediately buy into it. Small amounts of propaganda can still do wonders.

it was Littlefinger INTENTIONALLY bankrupting the Crown as part of his master plan. But then Robert gets killed and he has to make his move faster than anticipated.

>Viseryon has green fire
Source
> A lot of common folk and lords despise Tywin/The Mountain
Why would they rise up against Dany who has dragons supposedly capable of burning a whole city but not Tywin? They don't care
Cersei was queen when they used wildfire to blow up Stannis but no one would blame her, sure

Small folk can influence the outcome of a conflict in many ways, just look at the war of the nine penny kings and the brotherhood without banners. They cared enough to be a part of those, don't you think?

If they don't care why would they support her? As the books say the average person just wants stability, Cersei (the Lannisters) provide that. Dany certainly wouldn't, especially since the war left things a wreck for so many people.

And again, with some simple propaganda from the crown it would be easy to get the entire kingdom hating Dany's "invasion." Why would anybody give a shit about Cersei having used wildfire before?

The wild fire in Blackwater was aimed at enemy ships in the river, not civilians in the middle of a city. Keep up, user, come on...

Cersei cucked Robert and caused a succession crisis that tore Westeros apart. Where is the stability in that?

How many Westerosi have seen Viserion's allegedly green fire? Has Cersei?

>Viseryon has green fire
It never happened. We made it up.

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Except that the incest was never proven and couldn't be proven. Robert's brothers did nothing but cause destabilizing wars, the common folk wouldn't give a shit how much incest Cersei engaged in (the Targs did it too) as long as everything remained peaceful, which is what the Lannisters brought to the table.

smallfolk believe all sorts of ridiculous shit about dragons, you think they would question green fire? limão...

So small folk didn't care to do anything against tywin but they'll rise up against Dany for accidentally burning King's landing, but not cersei for blowing up the sept?
Cersei is crazy and a laughing stock in the book, how does she provide stability and how would the commoners support her when they were throwing shit at her the last book. People would care about her using wildfire cause it would be obvious she stashed King's landing with wildfire and blamed Dany for it

>lannisters brought peace
>What is the war of the five kings

because he fucking died you retard

I don't recall if its in the dragon tamer chapter, the chapter were Dany shows Quentyn the pitt or its another one that the POV notices each dragon has its own fire color, something like that...

He only got gored because his wine was poisoned

You're getting the books and the show mixed up. In the books Cersei isn't always the most obvious source of power. And the Lannisters (especially through Kevan) provided tons of stability, how is that not obvious compared to yet another war with Dany?

The show just ignoring that Cersei blew up the sept was utter bullshit that wouldn't have happened in the books.

Regarding small folk caring about the wildfire, again, why would they care? They don't know how much wildfire Cersei made vs whatever Aerys may have stored, and again, most have no idea what is going on in the upper echelons of royalty and strategy. All they'd know is that something blew up, and if they were told officially and by planted whisperers that it was a dragon (combined with Dany showing up) they'd easily fall for it, especially for all the people who weren't in KL.

Are you mixing showshit with the books? Cersei never burned the sept in the books, and if she does it it will certanly have more repercussion than in the show. The smallfolk won't act alone, but if someone stir them up, they might (like it happened multiple times in westerosi history). That user is 100% spot on about the power of propaganda. Don't forget that Dany is coming to westeros with dragons (nuclear lizards), dothraki (unga bunga smashy rapy wild people) and ruthless mercenaries. Its already a tough sell...

>Except that the incest was never proven and couldn't be proven.
It doesn't matter. Her actions caused people--Stannis, Ned, Jon Arryn--to believe that she cucked Robert.
>Robert's brothers did nothing but cause destabilizing wars
They wouldn't have started the wars if Cersei didn't cuck Robert and then have him killed, now would they?
>the common folk wouldn't give a shit how much incest Cersei engaged in (the Targs did it too) as long as everything remained peaceful, which is what the Lannisters brought to the table.
More irrelevant nonsense. This is not a democratic setting. Stop picking and choosing where to cut off the blame. Stop arbitrarily absolving Lannisters from their own actions.

The wars were started by Stannis and Renly, and to the average person they came across as power hungry. Granted, it was the Lannisters who killed Ned (ignoring the idea that LF was behind it) and started shit with the North, but that was partially a result of Northern rebellion too.

Of course it matters. A war on two different fronts was started over it, they would have needed to prove the incest was real but obviously couldn't, it was impossible. And that's the point, if they couldn't prove the incest was real, then it just comes across as Stannis and Renly being the evil jealous uncles trying to take the throne from Joffrey with trumped up, unproven charges.

And this thread is discussing the issue of stability. The majority of the realm wouldn't really give a shit about supposed incest (that again, could never be proven) as long as things stayed stable. People starting wars over bullshit reasons is not stable.

>The wars were started by Stannis and Renly,
Yeah, because of what the Lannisters did.

What is your argument? That everybody else is at fault for responding to the Lannisters' wrongdoing?

>dany burning kl will definitely happen in the books but cersei blowing up the sept, no way that would happen!
How else is Cersei gonna get out of her predicament? Kevan is dead so Cersei is what they have now, no one likes Cersei. People would care because the city going boom in a chain reaction of wildfire makes sense considering wildfire was just used as a nuke against an army. If you're claiming propaganda, that could easily go for either side

Come gather round, young and old alike
Hear my tale of the the show by the HBO kike
8 seasons we were shown, and not a single braincell
Could ever be found in this nightmare show hell
Jon Snow the Brave, and Cersei the cunt
All that wasted money, and queer Night King stunt
Forevermore we shall say bye to the got thread
Thank the lord of light this shit show is dead

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>Of course it matters. A war on two different fronts was started over it, they would have needed to prove the incest was real but obviously couldn't, it was impossible. And that's the point, if they couldn't prove the incest was real, then it just comes across as Stannis and Renly being the evil jealous uncles trying to take the throne from Joffrey with trumped up, unproven charges.
If Cersei didn't commit the incest in the first place, none of this would have happened. Period.
>And this thread is discussing the issue of stability. The majority of the realm wouldn't really give a shit about supposed incest (that again, could never be proven) as long as things stayed stable. People starting wars over bullshit reasons is not stable.
Oh, like cucking the king and having him killed? Like Cersei did?

All the stupid bullshit theories and what ifs in this thread are still better than the ending we actually got.

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I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm saying it will have repercussions, unlike the show. One of the many ways George can handle this situation killing or removing Cersei from the chessboard it to have people believe the nuking of KL was caused by the dragons, not wildfire.

As for counter-propaganda, it all depends on who has the largest range and strikes first.

So did Bran know Dany was gonna burn KL and didn't tell anyone or is just shit at his power?

He knew but he didn't say anything so hed be king

the average book reader could write a better ending than D&D, unnironically.

>One of the many ways George can handle this situation *WITHOUT killing or removing Cersei from the chessboard

my bad

Except that they had no proof and iirc at least Renly made it clear that it was just a power grab. And my original point was that for all their personal messes (messes the vast majority of the kingdom wouldn't be aware of), the Lannisters represented stability and order for the kingdom.

We don't know if she's going to blow up the sept, but if she does (and nobody said Dany would be blamed for that), some other reason would have to be found to explain it other than everyone just forgetting about it. I'm not GRRM so I don't know what that will end up being.

But after long periods of war and instability with winter setting in, do you really think the realm is going to want another war? Especially one against a Targ (who might possibly be mad, and stories of her "madness" were getting to Westeros) coming in with three dragons and a horde of Dothraki? When the city already full of propaganda against her in an already established system of spies and whisperers, who all have good reason not to want Dany there?

>Except that they had no proof
Irrelevant. If Cersei didn't cuck and murder the king, there would be no power struggle. Stop giving her a pass.
>iirc at least Renly made it clear that it was just a power grab.
So? Who made that possible? Cersei, but you continue to ignore her actions.
>And my original point was that for all their personal messes (messes the vast majority of the kingdom wouldn't be aware of), the Lannisters represented stability and order for the kingdom.
Yes, by causing the War of the Five Kings, where tens of thousands died.

If it does happen, people trusting Cersei over dany is retarded
But you just agreed with me, why would the realm rise up against her even if they believed the propaganda when they never did that for other characters

The complete lack of proof is absolutely relevant. Again, the war was only started due to rumors but ultimately as a power grab (again, less so with the Northern front but we're not discussing that) based on hearsay.

Your issue is that you seem to lack theory of mind. Yes, you know that the incest happened because the show/book depicted it, but would the average noble? Peasant? No, they would not. All that they'd know if that Stannis and Renly decided to simultaneously and independently steal the throne from Joffrey, which clearly comes across as them making a power grab (something Renly admits to). Whether or not Cersei was personally guilty was irrelevant because again, there is no proof of it to anyone. There was no way it could ever be proved. And the war with them was not started by the Lannisters. So again, since the personal affairs of the Lannisters don't affect anyone but a handful of nobles, why would anyone care? You keep putting the entire series of wars on Cersei but the point you should get from the books is that no single factor caused the wars, but had Renly and Stannis not decided to start fighting for the crown, there would have been far more peace and stability in the realm with the Lannisters peacefully ruling everything.

(This also ignores LF's involvements in destabilizing the situation).

this user is right
while its obvious to the reader that ceresi's cucking and general retardation is the reason for all the chaos, almost no one has that same perspective that the reader gets
as far as the common folk are concerned, the kings brothers are the reason for all the trouble

>why would the realm rise up against her even if they believed the propaganda when they never did that for other characters
Rise up against Dany or Cersei? The small folk did sometimes do things in Westerosi history, but more to the point, why would they support Dany?

At the point that Dance ended Cersei wasn't really in official power, so they wouldn't see it as supporting her, they'd see it as supporting the established crown instead of a Targ who wants to swoop in and start another war.

>The complete lack of proof is absolutely relevant.
No, it isn't. If somebody burns down a forest and there is no proof that they did it, is the forest still burnt?
>Again, the war was only started due to rumors but ultimately as a power grab (again, less so with the Northern front but we're not discussing that) based on hearsay.
No, it was because Cersei cucked Robert multiple times and then had him killed. You are being intellectually dishonest.

What you are is dishonest and a hypocrite. You give the Lannisters a pass for their wrongdoings, and then you place the blame on the Baratheons for their reactions.

If Cersei and Jaime (and Littlefinger) didn't do what they did, none of this shit would have happened. Tyrion would not have been falsely abducted, Robert wouldn't have died and Ned would not have been executed.

STOP. GIVING. THE. LANNISTERS. A. FREE. PASS.

Are you missing the part where she's on trial by the Vatican and the population of King's landing threw shit at her

That wasn't for incest. And what does that have to do with people not knowing the indirect cause of the wars?

are you missing the part where the Faith is clearly misleading the population (albeit in the right direcrtion)?
they hate her because of the accusations that daddy High Sparrow told them but none of them really understand the implications of her actions

Why would they rise up against Dany when the propaganda states that she has the power to nuke a city? If anything it'd be better to say that her dragons are horse sized and King's landing was just an accident and she doesn't know what she's doing. At that point, resistance would mean war

Cersei's accused of killing Robert and lancel her own cousin is a witness, how is that not going to get the people thinking she caused shit or could be fucking her brother

INCEL LANNISTER !
GODS WHAT A STIUUUUUUPID NAME!

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>Lannisters brought stability to the re--

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It would have made for a boring story.

>it was Littlefinger INTENTIONALLY bankrupting the Crown as part of his master plan.

The only thing that makes sense. Littlefinger was almost certainly cooking the books, even Tyrion couldn't follow them.

It's not even really a theory (extensions of it are though), it's practically stated plainly like when Tyrion finds a bunch of people on payrolls who don't exist and shit like that.

Yeah, season 2/book 2 show Tyrion going through Littlefinger's books and stating as much. How Littlefinger got away with it for so long, I have no idea.

>pushes marriage with Cersei
>hires Littlefinger
>keeps Aerys's spymaster on the Small Council

Jon Arryn was the real villain of the story. How the fuck can one man be so incompetent?

Would Varys have done what he did if the realm was ran more competently?

>How Littlefinger got away with it for so long, I have no idea.
Same reasons most frauds fly under the radar so long, everything else kept creaking along so no one had any reason to complain - Robert didn't care and Jon Arryn was too pussy-whipped by Lysa to do anything about it even if he suspected Littlefinger was up to dodgy shit.

Because that throne belongs to Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen

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Yes. Varys's goal was to get his (almost certainly fake) Aegon Targaryen on the throne. Although who knows what the fuck Show Varys would have done. What were he and Illyrio even plotting?

M-muh dragons

Jon Arryn was also biased because he raised LF and seemed to like him a lot (possibly even seeing him as a son), and since LF was good at fooling people Arryn never would have really caught on. Same reason Cat and Lysa fell for his bullshit (though Lysa loved him more of course).

yeah cause hes a massive targ fanboy

It's called shit writing. Lol 40,000 gold dragons for winning melee

Shit writing. Lol let the Master of Coin handle anything about money, wait what's my job as Hand and the real king again, what Robert wants to give 40,000 gold dragons to one person and 10,000 to someone else, isn't that literally a ton of gold, lol it's okay. George's economy makes no sense

>You know what I love about Daenerys Targaryen? I get older, she stays the same age
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH

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fuck man bobby didnt deserve that why couldnt anyone give him and the baratheons a chance

>the show isn't canon
>the books will never be finished
>that means the only canon is that which we meme
SO COME WITH ME AND TAKE THIS THREAD!!

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For some cynical reason, I don't think George had fAegon planned at all by the time A Game of Thrones came out.
Not so fast.

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I used to think so too, but I believe it's more about giving us a permanent distraction. The jew really likes to be under the radar, and to blend in.

Bring in outsiders that pose a threat, and look different. The jew and his differences are suddenly on the back burner. Meanwhile it can be very profitable goy.

THE KING WHO CARED

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STANNIS
STANNIS
STANNIS

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Reminder that GRRM has already planned his ending, he's just a lazy shit

>Stannis beats the boltons
>Jon comes back after shireen is sacrificed due to the pink letter and Selyse and Melisandre shenanigans
>f'Aegon takes KL and kills cersei and becomes a "loved" king
>Dany leaves essos, sails to westeros, discovers f'Aegon
>Dany gets angry, burns him and KL down - maybe the whole city, maybe only the red keep, doesn't matter
>Stannis is devestated by the death of shireen, executes Selyse,
>Can't stand having Jon near him, sends him to deal with dany
>Prof. Drogon smells Jon, tells dany he's a targaryen, she fucks Jon cause george won't pass on his incest fetish
>Stannis as AA and Bran as the Prince the was promised fight the others and euron, they find some deus ex magic way to beat them
>Dany realizes she just wants to shag, convinces Jon to go back to essos, he agrees
>Stannis is king and Bran secretly controls him using his freaky mind control
>The End

> joos
the only jew in got is frogfu

and maybe braavos bank which crown owe debts, yes

>GRRM has already planned his ending
too bad the fat fuck's notes will be burned after he dies from infection following the amputation one of his feet b/c of diabetes
ergo:
STANNIS
STANNIS
STANNIS

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Jon is a bastard. Seven and old gods don't allow polygamy, Rhaegar had no dragons to make anyone accept and no proof exists that is believable and satisfactory to prove Rhaegar and Lyanna married and that Jon is their child. Jon is nothing without Dany's backing

Ahem.

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>Jon Arryn was also biased because he raised LF
no he didn't

I wish there was someway Roose could Stannis' Warden of the North.
what a based administration they could have

showfag

>Stannis wins at the Blackwater
>Robb refuses to surrender
>Roose makes a pact with Stannis instead
>Red Wedding happens, with Boltons and Freys bending the knee to Stannis

I guess Stannis did throw a leech for the "usurper Robb Stark"
come to think of it, Roose is called the "Leech Lord" in the books.

>Northerners still conspire against Boltons
>fAegon still comes
>Dany still has dragons
>Wildlings overrun the North
>White Walkers still exist
>Euron still sailing around

He was a cowardly usurper who stabbed his king in the back

>>Northerners still conspire against Boltons
Would be interesting to see Starks vs Baratheons, do they hate Stannis as much as the Lannisters? Do they see it as just part of the war? Keep in mind, Stannis doesn't have the beef with the Starks that the Lannies do. For him, the Red Wedding would've been literally nuthin personnel, and I doubt he'd have anything to do with orchestrating how it went down.
>>fAegon still comes
He'd probably come from the West and unite the Westerlands and Reach, possibly marrying Margaery. Stannis might marry Shireen to Trystane to secure Dorne, and a possible Stannis-Arianne marriage if the Dornish off Selyse.

Poisoned with boar tusks, the fiends!

>For him, the Red Wedding would've been literally nuthin personnel, and I doubt he'd have anything to do with orchestrating how it went down.
Then it wouldn't happen. Robb being alive would be the only chance he has at Northern stability. The Lords would rebel and the Wildlings would start overrunning the North, since Stannis isn't there to stop them.
>Stannis might marry Shireen to Trystane to secure Dorne, and a possible Stannis-Arianne marriage if the Dornish off Selyse.
I am sure that the Tyrells are just dying to enter into a marriage alliance with the family who is partially responsible for the deaths of Elia and Rhaenys.

it's not a matter of want, it's a matter of duty.

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>Joffrey cuts Neds head off starting a war
You
>Why would the baratheons do this?

Look! It's another Lannister who is stabilizing the realm.

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