Can you explain the difference between supposedly "pandering" empowered female characters like Rey or Captain Marvel...

>supposedly "good" female characters like Ripley?
Actual, fleshed out characters with flaws, motivations, & personalities
> supposedly "pandering" empowered female characters like Rey or Captain Marvel
Placeholder mouthpiece characters for today's agenda. If you have to constantly go out of your way to say that these are "strong female characters", then they are most likely not since their actions & persona can't portray that on their own

Going back to LV426 for starters...

no empowerment.

Ripley and Sarah are butch

not on her, burke was lying to her about the mission’s purpose

Stop lying. The complete opposite is true. If those movies came out today, then feminists would bash Ripley and Connor for being feminine and having maternal instincts.

You write a character as a character first and a political statement second. You don't break the internal logic of the universe to make a point. Wow. Writing is hard.

It helps that Linda Hamilton genuinely looked and acted like a tough-as-nails insurgent, and Sigourney Weaver played a human in a struggle for survival at all costs using her wits.

Rey and Carol are played by generic skinnyfat hot chicks with Yas Kween writing to back them up.

Even if the statement is right, and morally just? A statement that NEEDS to be said?

I know this is hard for some to grasp, but there are things in the world that are more important than movies, and using mass media to send the right message and create change is one of them.

Ripley and Sarah Connor were normal people who, over the course of their debut movies, barely scraped by. It's the same reason no one ever complains about horror movie final girls. They're presented as vulnerable characters who overcome their shortcomings. You can take pretty much any Freddy or Jason survivor and they have more depth than Rey or Captain Marvel.

What made Ripley great in aliens at least in my eyes is that she didn't start as a powerful female character but became one at the end of the film.
You can see at the start of the film that she has strong PTSD from the events of alien and is scared shitless of the aliens which makes her character relatable and believable. Its only when the life of others are at risk that she decides to overcome her fears and become the baddest bitch in cinema history.

This. The most over-celebrated female tripe in memory was a female remake of a male raunch comedy (it wasn't even an original project), and when it came out, critics insisted it was somehow breaking new ground. In doing so they erased the memory of Lily Tomlin, Bette Midler, Joan Rivers, Andrea Martin, Gilda Radner, and all the fearless (and actually funny) female comics of the 70s. It is actually the revolution that is eating its own, like all revolutions, so it can pretend to be accomplishing something.

Maybe, but feminism is also the wrong message.

Animes gaves us good female characters with flaws too similar to Ripley and Sarah.
Something we don't see very much today.

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Because Sarah Connor and Ripley are actually characters. Captain Marvel and Rey are just power fantasy inserts with an added flavor of bad writing or unlikabality.

There are plenty of female leads that still come out that aren't shit like Alita, and she isn't particularly good anyway.

If you don't think women are equal, fuck off.

Most ignorant line on the site. Maybe study history and literature before imagining that you've just GOT to TELL the PEOPLE. Take a glance at all those other dead letters that just had to be said. Great literature is about what's timeless, not who to vote for in a few months.

Ripley is a character with definite goals and flaws.
She was a very rational person, even deciding against helping one of her colleagues in favour of preventing a security breach, which caused people to not like her that much, see her with disdain.
She's shown to be competent but still vulnerable, scraping by through determination to escape and make it out alive, even if under pressure her emotions broke down her rational façade, making her risk everything to save her cat.

You can see through this that Ripley is a flawed character put in a worse situation, with her traits like motherhood taking over, making a certain human sense despite being completely irrational. She struggles in gaining what she wants, both things being made clear to the audience, and that makes her human. Her skillset doesn't clash with her background either.

Now, Rey. Her background is that she's a scavenger left in a desert planet since infancy by her parents. She doesn't know who she is or what she wants. However, she doesn't struggle at any point. She is ridiculously competent at everything she does, being more skilled at things she's doing for the first time than veterans in that field (Being a better pilot than Han, pulling impressive tricks on her first try. Defeating Luke Skywalker in a duel despite having barely a day of practice with a lightsaber, and Kylo Ren before she had any experience at all. Becoming an ace shot with a blaster after missing two (2) shots), everyone instantly takes a liking to her, friend and for alike, even to the point of it not making sense (Leia hugs Rey to comfort her after Han's death, completely ignoring Chewbacca, someone she's known for decades, in favour of this new person).

Rey is not even a character, she's a cardboard cut out for which everything works out fabulously. You can even see Luke be scared shitless of her Force powers after a short meditation session. She doesn't make any logical sense and is incredibly overcompetent and perfect.

I haven't lost a fist fight against a woman yet.

>I know this is hard for some to grasp, but there are things in the world that are more important than movies

You mean like how the Earth will not exist any more unless we permit the Chinese to massively pollute, while giving up our own electricity? That kind of, like, really deep inner meaning, man?

dont care about your question op but for your pic id like to point out that neither of those strong women would be anywhere with out a strong man saving them and teaching them how to survive on their own

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And you haven't had sex with one either, fuck you.

notice how these strong empowered women arent afraid to give total i want this man to fuck me eyes

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Damn...

You sound like Elon Musk in the near future shrieking at investors and screwed over customers that they're stupid for expecting their cars to work. Sure there's more important things than movies. But this is a movie board. This is a discussion about movies. And a filmmaker with your attitude -- who views the film solely as a gimmick or trick to get to some political propaganda goal -- is admitting that he doesn't grasp filmmaking fundamentals and cannot make movies.

this is what a true chad looks like

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>if this came out today you would be triggered!
*gets triggered by jokes in Ace Ventura*

Right, and it doesn't make them weaker to have learned, in fact that actually makes them much stronger and makes their strength more logical, because it came from somewhere and took time to develop.
The major complaint about Rey was that she does everything perfectly the first time with no help.

No, danger hairs would be mad at them like they were at Wonder Woman for showing skin.

"REEEEEEEEEEE! They're using them as sex objects and disempowering these powerful wahmen!"

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This but unironically

And let's not forget Bill and Ted calling each other fags.

Normal people: ...

Marketing for Alien: Yes incels, a woman is going to be fighting monstrous aliens, get over it!

>If Ripley and Sarah Connor came out today you manbabies would be as mad at them as you are at Rey and Carol Danvers
Exactly, because Hollywood, with its increasingly radical & progressive obsession, would fuck Ripley and Sarah Connor up. They'd be completely transparent and boring Mary Sue characters with zero depth, just like Rey and Danvers.

>tfw Weaver actually wanted to do the nude scene but the director chickened out

Ripley literally died in alien 3
in aliens she finds out that she basically outlived her daughter from being frozen in space for so long.
the character itself is struggling with personal demons and decisions on top of no one listening to her about the aliens that she seen first hand.
Sara conner fell in love and watched her love and childs father killed in front of her. her purpose in life was to keep her son alive, which got her put in a mental ward for her efforts
cpt marvel and rey are over powered from the get go, have no development and never fail

This was an effective scene precisely because she's vulnerable but doesn't let that trip her up. That's a miniature hero's journey and much better than lacking any vulnerabilities.

>stops Weaver from appearing nude
God Bless that man.

>Can you explain the difference
No, because this is bait and you know what the difference is, you'd have to be retarded or entirely consumed by ideology not to see it.

nude scenes shouldn't be gratuitous

They're more than equal. They're overprivileged.

Obvious bait or absolute retarded take.

>If Sarah Connor came out today
The funny part is she is "coming back out" in the new Terminator movie, and I GUARANTEE they will ruin her character.

She used to be a relatable, flawed, interesting character who although in a completely crazy situation was believable, likable, and most importantly showed signs of growth. She went from a normie waitress to a battle hardened prepper because of the experiences she'd had, and she was always treated as a human. Literally nobody complained about her because there was nothing to complain about, her character was excellently done.

Now, the new trailer has Grandma Connor (she's fucking 62) coming out of a truck popping off her grenade launcher at a super-killer robot like it's nothing. She's basically treated as if she were a fucking terminator. Great job! I'm totally gonna get invested in this story!

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can you explain the difference between supposedly "feeding and seeding" empowered female characters like Sneed, and supposedly "fucking and sucking" female characters like Chuck

>less than 10% of the posts are sneed
You guys are gassing out aren't you?

true but it worked for laurie in the last halloween. her old ass was crazy but fucked mike myers up

She's going to be ridiclously over-competent for a woman in her 60's.
We already know that she "hunts Terminators", when she couldn't kill a single one without a lot of help in the previous movies. And that's not a knock on her character in the first two. It made her more relatable. No one should be able to just hunt Terminators willy nilly. Kyle Reese couldn't do it.

>Sarah Connor
Starting Protagonist in her franchise
>Ripley
Starting Protagonist in her franchise
>Luke Skywalker
Starting Protagonist in his franchise
>Iron Man
Starting Protagonist in the Cinematic franchise

See what I'm driving at here? If you're the original character the audience will naturally just like you because you're the person that the viewer at first identifies with. When you create a new protagonist like Rey or Captain Fungusfeet you have a far greater hurdle to cross.

Because both ripley and sarah connor are bad ass mother fuckers who could kick my ass.

Rey and captain memevel are just sniveling girls who are pretending to be tough

Sarah Conner was about useless in the first movie.
It wasn't until T2 after she'd been taught how to make explosives, stocked up an armory in Mexico, and been sent to the nuthouse and broke out that she was an action hero.

>within less than 3 minutes of her introduction Captain Marvel is already being praised by Thor
>same thing happens in TFA when Han Solo meets Rey
modern writers don't know how to make empowered female characters feel likable or competent so they just tell you how to feel

>Captain Fungusfeet
How often do you scrutinize the feet of Robert Downey, or Chris Hemsworth, just out of curiosity? Never?

Gee, wonder why.

And she was still basically just someone's mom, who was way out of her depths. It's not like she was any good in a fight against the T-1000.

And I agree. I just find the situation curious, someone being so willing to expose themselves like that.

not very often because they don't wear open toed shoes while having very obvious medical conditions, and I don't want to lick mens' feet

for one, ripley and sarah connor dont have super powers
they're not the strongest character in the universe

If you can't understand by yourself it's because you are part of the problem

bush

Has Paz de la Huerta ever not taken off her clothes?

Oh yeah, having super/force powers is soooooo off-putting in Muh Action Films.
Forgot about that.

Flaws

What does this sentence even mean?

this
When Ripley faces the alien, or Sarah the terminator, they have to improvise and struggle to fight it, and it's a last second thing.
If Rey or Captain MArvel fought either of those thing's they'd probably just make a shitty one liner then smack it over the head once, killing it instantly.

>new Terminator movie
>directed by James Cameron
>direct sequel to T2
Mite b cool.
I'll give him enough rope to hang himself with at least.

It's not though. It's directed by Tim Miller, and Cameron is "producing", which is to say he's across the street working on Avatar.

He's saying that that doesn't work because it's not the same genre, that action gets away a lot with having leads with high power levels.
I think, at least.

source: ass

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Even He-Man has to be Prince Adam most of the time, and struggle against odds, and occasionally get trapped or led astray, because if he didn't, even children would have been bored with xhel.

Sneed.

Fucking Google it or something. Tim Miller is directing this movie.

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I can't believe the amount of malevolent stupiditiy in this post.

Did he died?

Christ almighty John Conner, you fell harder than Macully Culkin.
Maybe they'll be able to give you the same treatment they gave to Mark Hammil, he used to look like he diddled kids when he was voicing the Joker.

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men don't need propaganda and artificial empowerment

Difference being they dont shit on men and arent mary sues

How hard did John's ass get terminated?

Well, let's compare them to the male leads in the MCU then
Captain america starts out as a fucking twig-thin manlet, and is portrayed after his first film as a perpetual fish out of water, not to mention his struggles with bucky and his differing morals from Iron Man
and on the topic of Iron man, he's shown as an egotistical, drunk playboy who repeatedly makes serious mistakes over the course of the films
it's like they don't want to write the female leads as flawed, because they're worried (rightfully so) a bunch of woke people on social media will trashtalk them for it.

prove it

lmao if you think some woman finds tom holland attractive

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>Wonder Woman
reminder that the movie was shit

I can't believe the amount of malevolent stupidity in honestly thinking a goddamn movie or tv show is more important than promoting equality, ESPECIALLY when the message often doesn't even make any impact to the story being told to begin with.

All the things you idiots cry about, when Rey or Carol or Shurri does it, you'd not say a word if it was a man. There's your malevolent stupidity, dumb shit.

I wasn't exclusively talking about women

Nobody is equal you liberal dimwit.

>you'd not say a word if it was a man.
It sure is tragic that you can't prove that.

yeah, tom holland is more of a gay guy thing than a straight woman thing
unless some younger women find him attractive in the way they find faggy boy bands to be

Promoting equality is bad in the first place, but I'll let it slide that something isn't promoting my personal politics, as long as they make it entertaining.

You're probably right OP. it's the forced nature and the saturation of the issue. I didn't give a shit, but one too many unfunny/unsexy females later, I'm started to be annoyed.

Characters are only interesting when they're flawed or put in situations where they are vulnerable. Female characters in modern pop culture (but especially in MCU movies) never have any discernible character flaws and are never put in disadvantageous situations. Ripley and Sarah Conner both overcome insane odds and survived situations where any other person would have died.

Basically "strong female characters" are never written to be underdogs so the audience has no reason to root for them.

I just rewatched the first Dirty Harry and it was amazing because the protagonist is just a guy with everything against him. It would be boring otherwise.
The closest he gets to a relaxation in the context of friendship is when he's showing the black guy (who he just shot) his gun. That smile is friendly, not triumphant, it's like the beer after the Gilgamesh meeting. Sure we were just fighting but in other circumstances you'd be my brother. You almost had me.
Now imagine a pinkhair viewing that scene for the first time: a white cop grinning, as he leans over the black man he just shot, and dangles his revolver. Imagine the pinkhair's reaction. These people can't make movies because they are not fully human.

He's just fat, he looks exactly the same besides that

Probably. They weren’t spawned in an era when women are being treated like children who need constant validation and headpats, while at the same time acting like they’re hyper-capable at everything.

did you even see T1?

he didn't criticize Sigourney or linda either
did you miss it on purpose?

prove you aren't an angry little drop out white incel, who's so miserable he can't STAND the idea of a movie being used for a positive change in the world
The dumbest thing is, people like you always act like including some sort of positive message just inherently ruins the story being told, which is horse shit. Newsflash, you can tell a good story WITH A MESSAGE!

capeshit flicks are lightshows, not action movies
keep it in mind next time

>manbabies
procreate

Genisys2.0
have you watched the trailer?

If their feet our gross they have the decency to not show them.

And the moment they dare same something "controversial" around here, like - "I think women are human beings", he'll criticize and reduce their entire existence as human beings down to their looks

And meanwhile, any fat slob male actor on the planet would NEVER receive that kind of scrutiny, not for a second. You know why? Because you think a woman's appearance is her value, and it isn't a mans, because even though you tell yourself you aren't so you can think you aren't a piece of shit, you're a sexist.

It's not positive though.

How is the message that woman are powerful and can accomplish their goals not positive? Go ahead, break it down for me.

>you think a woman's appearance is her value, and it isn't a mans,
That's true though.

It's not a woman's role in society to be "powerful". It's their role to be wife and mother. Any deviation from this path spells disaster on all sides.

>. Newsflash, you can tell a good story WITH A MESSAGE!
many movies did this since the dawn of moviemaking until your pathetic movement made them hateful propaganda and bad storytelling
you are the enemy, idiot, equality will come when you wil finally fuck off and movies will be good again

I'm sure your mother would be delighted to know that, in addition to raising an unfuckable illiterate who stays in his room all day at age 30, that her value to you is just "would I".

Incels like you always complain that they can't find love because of their height, or their interests, or their weight - it's actually because you're a disgusting human being. Not just physically.

Putting a female character over everyone and everything without earning it. Period. Ripley is not as calm as Dallas in the face of danger, she's not as tough as Hicks or Vasquez. She will never hold power the way Burke or Weyland does. But she's tough and faces loss that her willpower can't magically overcome.

Pandering characters are not only good, they're the best with every weapon, vehicle, magic spell, whatever. The hardships they face are all beaten. They never lose anything that isn't instantly replaced or worse, they never learn from it. Luke lost family, he lost friends, he nearly lost everything and he failed. God did he fail. So does Ripley. What does Rey ever fail at? When does Captain Marvel ever genuinely lose with no take backs?

That's the difference. We're given perfection and expected to relate or admire BECAUSE they're women. But we all fail, we all lose things and we all learn. Watching a bunch of Jesus' on screen is boring. I don't mind strong women characters. But they have to be characters. Even Superman is only interesting when his perfection in morality is challenged. It's why he is so rarely good on film.

A woman's role is to choose her own damn role, because she's a human being, and it's a human right to make your own way through life.

People like you must think that if women were just kept as house slaves or something, maybe THEN you'd finally score a wife - no, you wouldn't. If every woman on earth made themselves available for marriage and child rearing, you can bet they'd not be available for you, and people like you.
Want to get a date? Try, as a bare minimum, considering the opposite sex as real, actual human beings for once.

The storytelling receives rave reviews, and the message is anything but hateful. There's nothing "hateful" about saying women can do what they put their minds to.

short circuited

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Good female characters SHOW us they are bad ass.
Bad female characters TELL us they are badass.

Ripley, maybe.
Sarah Connor was a helpless damsel in the first Terminator.

If Chuck came out today you cityslickers would be as mad at them as you are at Sneed.

wanted just to say that you are arguing with many as they were one, you poor cattle
you also just had a meltdown accusing males of reducing women to their mere look, while doing the exact same thing:
>I'm sure your mother would be delighted to know that, in addition to raising an unfuckable illiterate who stays in his room all day at age 30, that her value to you is just "would I".
>Incels like you always complain that they can't find love because of their height, or their interests, or their weight - it's actually because you're a disgusting human being. Not just physically.
get some perspective and go away, subhuman

Rey and Carol never once say "I am badass", or anything similar. And yet, the hate flows.

Wonder why...

It isn’t just about female shit.
I think it’s because everything feels so formulaic now, like it was all lit together with a focus group to maximize demographics.
Did people used to think Sam Jackson was just forcing in a black guy? Did anyone complain that Michelle Rodriguez always played a pretty hot tough grrrrrl latina?
It just feels so much more forced now.

>prove you aren't a straw man
You've just proved your understanding of rhetoric.

>incels
Gotta earn that fifty cents.

>The storytelling receives rave reviews
marketing. Even throwing shit at the public would receive rave review
>There's nothing "hateful" about saying women can do what they put their minds to.
clueless zelot

Is call this shitty bait but clearly it worked

You didn’t even attempt to answer the question kek. None of those things you just listed were due to Ripley/Connor making a mistake.

Reasonable extrapolation from observation isn't a strawman, moron.

>Carol Danvers
who?

It´s called character development OP. Characters like Connor, Ripley, Starling, Nikkita and even Summers have propperly explained motivations and objectives. They where not strong because they where women, they became iconic because they had their mettle tested by trials of fire and transformed to survive. Their enemies where always stronger than them to the very end but they won anyways.
It´s not like it´s not important that they are women, but that´s certainly not all they are. It´s who they are as individuals what made them great.

While you can say exactly who Sarah Connor is, what she wants, why she wants it and even how the conflict is related to aspects of her as a female you really can´t say the same of a blank slate like Rey. Why does Rey join the rebels? why does she wants to become a jedi? why does she feel empathy towars Kylo? Two movies in and there are really no answers. (while if asked all those questions about Luke you would get those answers on the first 30 minutes of the movie). The new generation are not only worse characters, they are on worse movies.

Ripley and Sarah are awesome while still being effeminate.

Rey is like a tasteless saltine that everyone keeps telling me tastes good, and I don't really know what to say about Carol. She's not cool though.

You're all fucking retarded and only one person in this thread is right. It has nothing to do with 'pandering' or anything. It has to do with the film industry being different to what it was 40 years ago. 40 years ago, you could take a risk with relatively OC ideas. Now? Now if you don't have an established universe, you don't even get into the board room. You then better have graphs, research and demographics to back up that the $150m the guys in suits are giving you will give them $500m box office minimum. If you can't or don't, fuck off.
>b-b-but user, people DO make OC!
Yeah and by and large do it with way smaller budgets (like $50m tops) or are already established names or are essentially stealing existing things (Avatar and Dances with Wolves) and 'making it different'. Therefore, you don't have fucking time to make the character flawed. With Terminator, you had a single film, then you had Terminator 2, meaning your old work can be expanded on, then you had Terminator 3 and all the rest. First you had Alien, then Aliens, then so on and so forth. Unless you're a huge big studio like Disney and its various arms, you're not gonna be planning OC 5 before the 1st one has even worked. You might go 'okay we could do up to 5' but then you end up with a Star Trek situation, where despite the 3rd film being the best one in the nu-Trek series, it didn't make any money due to the original 2 losing all good will (despite being good action films, they were shit Star Trek films... not that Star Trek has a good history of films anyway).

This is the shit. This is why things need to be good from the get go. Because this might be stand-alone or it might not be. Star Wars is in a situation where you can do new characters every trilogy, as long as you have AT-ST's AT-ST's AT-ST's LIGHTSABERS X-WINGS! THE FORCE!

Can you explain the difference between supposedly "sneed" characters like Feed and Seed, and formerly "chuck" characters like Fuck and Suck?

What does any of that have to do with shit female characters?

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what's that name again? I forgot

sneed

Yup that is basically it, Capt Marvels movie she had literally no one that actually challenged her by the time she was actually a superhero and not a pawn for the Kree.

>Ripley in Alien
>just a normal crew member mook
>barely scrapes by and nearly dies before the film ends
>escape is practically a miracle
>Rey in Alien
>directly fights Alien hand to hand
>Xenomorph tail gets edited out in post for one scene where they realize it could've stabbed her
>pulls out a random part that both stops the Nostromo from exploding and blasts the alien into space

Re-read what I said, retard. I said things need to be good from the get go. Characters need to be good and perfect from the get go. They don't have time to 'grow' because they may or may not be involved in multiple films and demographics, graphs, research and the suits don't care. They want people to watch now, not in three films time. There is no research to suggest 'growth' makes them more money. So they don't put it in. But instant Mary Sues do, which is why they exist. It just also has the benefit of being cheaper and easier to do.

That's nonsense though. No one goes to see a movie because there's a Mary Sue in it. You shouldn't even know that until after you've paid.

>Sarah Connor was a helpless damsel in the first Terminator.
no she wasn't. She was an absolutely normal person and becomes badass through the movie

Dead meme

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then show me its body

>Wonder why...
because you are the problem
otherwise you would know the answer

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Swap the characters to men. Do they do anything problematic? If yes, you now know why Ripley works and Carol Danvers does not.

What crap. So to make a movie you have to make a bad one with zero character development? The reason women are portrayed so shitty in film today is because the film studios have listened to the loud fools who consider any form of weakness a misogynistic insult to their gender and will shriek endlessly on the internet about it.

There is some truth to this. Rey isn't the problem with Disney's fanfiction, incels are the problem with Rey. Danvers is someone literally nobody asked for though.

Everything is infinitely worse now than it was in the 80s. People did not give a fuck this much about race or sex or anything like that in the 80s or 90s. White people are absolutely OBSESSED with this shit now.

Unlearn the term Mary Sue. You don't know what it fucking means and you've pounded the term into the ground. Everything you don't like isn't a Mary Sue.

>What crap. So to make a movie you have to make a bad one with zero character development?
welcome to the current decade

Yes incel, anyone who thinks women are people, and that stories told for them are okay is a "problem", fuck yourself.

Cancer.

sneething

I don't think Carol Danvers really deserves to be paired with Rey in terms of character but they do both have super powers. Another thing they they have in common is poorly written movies. And I think this is what might be at the crux of your question. I find Rey's movies and Captain Marvels movie both to have the same goal of making the lead female look awesome. And that comes across in a pretty shallow way, more in Rey's case than CM. It boils down to there's a problem THEY have the answer. Why? BECAUSE. Can't say because they're women but there isn't really any other reason either. Once again, this is less the case for CM but it's spot on for Rey. How is Rey so strong in the Force? Doesn't Matter. Why is Rey so committed to the Rebel cause? Doesn't Matter. Why is Rey so knowledgeable in how to use the
force. Doesn't Matter. How does Rey know so much about the Millennium Falcon? Well, she's been a scrapper most of her life so it's conceivable that she possibly learned it while scrapping, maybe.

Ripley and Sarah neither initially fits the mold of hero and I don't think they really grow into it until at least their second movie. They're both lucky survivors that learned from and were made stronger by the trials they were put through. There's very little that they're shown to be capable of that isn't made clear in the movie. There's no could haves or speculation or you have to read the novel adaption to get the full picture. In T2 why is Sarah so fucking aggressive and knowledgeable of guns? She spent her life after the first movie training with people that could help her teach her son the skills he needed to be a military leader. In Aliens Why can Ripley hop in a mech and fight an Alien Queen because we are told and shown that she has a job where operating that mech was customary. Those details help you understand a characters abilities and maybe even mindset. They did a good job explaining the characters.

le incel meme
stop it puppet, we can see your wires

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You don't have to though. A lot of those Marvel movies are centered around a character developing, and becoming worthy of his name. The first Thor movie to state a very obvious one.

Yes it does.

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Based

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Cancer.

>anyone who thinks women are people, and that stories told for them are okay
you think you are doing that, but you aren't
there was more equality before your cult and there will be more equality after your cult
go away Scientology

Cancer.

Why is Lisa always so wrong?

This explains it
vocaroo.com/i/s0tyFHmgu66p?fbclid=IwAR2cVbUHKspqh_7oo7d8f4Qcnum1meowsTM_8Iin3PhUClf4CerEdHw06p0

They are not equal physically. That is a fact, and they are also other emotionally unstable.

Andy?

You can find the things that needed to be said in the holy quran, habibi.

Sure. Ripley and Sarah Connor aren't good at everything. They're allowed to have moments of weakness, where they're less powerful than the bad guys. This creates tension and makes them more interesting as characters. Pandering characters are good at everything and rarely allowed to ever be bested or put into any real danger.
I think its best to compare their ending sequences. With Ripley (in Alien) and Sarah Connor (in Terminator), they're both on the run from this unstoppable killing machine. They're both completely outmatched, but manage to defeat their adversaries using cunning and determination. It's actually thrilling. Now compare that to Rey and Captain Marvel: they just kill everyone because they're stronger and better. It's not as interesting or exciting, especially in Captain Marvel's case where she's basically Superman. Guess what, people don't like Superman because he's boring because he's too damn powerful, and that's why people can't get into Captain Marvel and Rey.

The problem is the current leftist dogma of women needing to be portrayed as equal to if not superior to men in all aspects which leaves them with no way to grow as they were perfect in every way already.

You

Michael Jackson had the tact to cover his vitiligo with a glove, and he's a homosexual pedophile.

That jewish faggot everyone keeps posting here had nasty toenails too. But he cleaned them up apparently.

Letting burke live, listening to him at all, not sweeping the ship for eggs after the queen showed up. Allowing the two dudes in space suits into the ship at all rather than conspiring to space the pair of them or weld them into medbay.

>Responding to the bait
Why do you guys even bother? Even for the sake of discussion, it's not like you'll get anything out of it.

Boredom.

>moving the goalposts
>being a disingenuous faggot
if they were mary sues characters would instantly believe them and everything works out hunky dory
even if they don't make """mistakes""" they still behave like humans and get treated like everyone else

A story is only relevant as long as the character grows and is transformed by it. That´s literally the point of telling the story in the first place. If the status quo is not changed then the story is meaningless and inconsecuential.
In other words transformation is not something accesory to storytelling but one of it´s most important elements if not the most important.

The plot function is to allow the character to express this process of transformation in the form actions to solve a conflict. The specific actions are the ones that are interchangeable.

It´s not even about originality. A basic hero´s journey well implemented will do (like the original SW movies or even the prequels) and should guarantee suits their money so there really is no reason to neglect the aspect that is both, the most important and the cheaper on the production line. Good writting.

As for the themes/ pandering even that is alright if the writter is good enough and knows how subtext works.

It's fun, and it educates onlookers.

>the one time a sneed carpet bombing would be useful and you faggots completely ignore the thread

I can understand the thought behind this edit however it assumes people have an an issue with a group of characters because of one trait they share.

It completely ignores nuance, depth and character progression. I think these people are sick in the head and don’t care about merit. They think characters should just BE. I don’t understand how people enjoy that be I don’t wanna be that person.

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ARGHHHHH IM COOOMING

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Captain Marvel” is like a political commercial—it packs a worthy message, but it hardly counts as an aesthetic experience. The message of the film is conveyed less through the story than through its casting: women and people of color sneed to have starring roles in major Hollywood productions, which, at the moment, mainly mean big-budget superhero movies, the most profitable films in the industry. Its implicit subject is more than representation—it’s also the redistribution of power in Hollywood. There are some secondary (but still significant) messages, too, but the movie itself is, for the most part, trivial. Its significance is what it promises for movies to come.

Ripley
>Trusting Burke, knowing full well the company is willing to fuck people over
>Making the suggestion that the Marines should disarm themselves in what is clearly a dangerous situation
>Is initially not forthcoming to the inhabitants of Fury 161 that a xenomorph may have hitched a ride with her, resulting in a number of deaths that could have possibly been avoided if they had known sooner.
>walks around freely amongst a group of dangerous criminals despite the fact they would prefer she not. Not just for their own comfort and moral beliefs, but for her own safety.

As for Sarah Connor
>Calls mother despite being told explicitly not contact anyone, thereby revealing her location to the terminator and resulting in Kyle's death
>Her obsession with the future turns into a fairly bad parent and almost completely loses her sense of motherhood and family. John becomes more of an object to secure rather than a son to nurture.
>Attempts to murder a man in cold blood rather than try to explain what the future holds (somethat that was done anyway by John and Uncle Bob)
>Generally fails to keep a low profile and is unable to make good decisions regarding the future (blowing up a random computer factory isnt going to stop skynet)

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Kill yourself for even wasting my time having to scroll past you nigger posts you fucking soiboi

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See if you can form and express a coherent thought without memes and cartoon frogs, retard.

Rey is just flawless and doesn't have any sense of character development whereas Ripley and Connor feel like humans.

I don't think those people actually care. It seems really clear in arguments on this subject, they're rarely if ever talking about the character or movie as much as they are the popularity of the character or movie. And that's what the goal is it's to make Luke Sky Walkers and Supermans for girls. And the frustration and resentment comes from these roles and movies not getting the same traction, praise, or fanbase as other popular male heroes. An what they fail to understand is that the reason the characters that do catch on and receive all the admiration is because they resonate with the viewer as an admirable character, The fan sees in them either something he is or something he wants to become. And that realization leaves a bond between them and the character or movie that they cherish when ever they're reminded of it.

Sneedley and Sarah Chucker

what’s the matter, just give a smile

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I'll just put it this way: their easy to knockout...

/thread

>blowing up a random computer factory isnt going to stop skynet
Couldn't hurt.

>Ripley = Moe
Based

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>their easy to knockout
>their

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>Newsflash, you can tell a good story WITH A MESSAGE!

But Captain Marvel isn’t a good story and The Last Jedi is a fucking war crime against humanity.

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Good?

Yeah. He looks like Solid Snake

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She looks like she's enjoying it...

Sneed

she's liberal

this. But the faggot will never understand

If you correctly use 'Mary Sue/Gary Stu' then no not at all. A Mary Sue is a character with a disproportionate skillset inexplicably able to resolve every problem faced by other characters. John Wick is just your traditional overpowered character. It's the same reason Superman is not a Gary Stu, Superman is a literal alien god who faces challenges that arise from his position, e.g. kryptonite/lois lane being threatened etc. So there is a narrative structure of problems unique to the characters power.

In the same way John Wick has a high powered assassin but the problems he faces are an inability to escape his life of crime. The key here is that the conflict exists alongside the characters power, and involves the character attempting to overcome the issue. Rey is the best example of a Mary Sue because every problem she encounters she can immediately sneed through some unestablished power she spontaneously reveals having (like fixing the ship in TFA).

Mary Sues are not a criticism of power creep but a criticism of conflict resolution. When the character simply breezes through a string of problems by simply drawing upon some hidden talent or skill over and over then you have a narrative problem since you cannot get invested in the problem at hand

>character simply breezes through a string of problems by simply drawing upon some hidden talent or skill over and over

That's John Wick though.

They don't care about the story, they are just making propaganda at this point.

>Sarah Connor was a helpless damsel in the first Terminator.
I don't know how you say that. She was a normal woman. Normal people are shown to be helpless against terminators, regardless of sex. However, she survived. She killed the thing that the seasoned apocalyptic commando couldn't kill.

Just to let you know you’re conflating the idea of respecting women with putting them on a pedestal which actually hurts women more than showing them as real people. You can’t be mad that we are annoyed with shitty female characters like Captain Marvel and then defend that shit as if they are the pinnacle of well crafted female characters. You’re just allowing more weak sauce characters male and female to permeate modern entertainment.

We want struggles because we struggle. We want real character motivation or ambition. Rey and Carol don’t have any of those things. Just because the things surrounding those characters might be interesting doesn’t mean that singular character is interesting.

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I saw the original tweet that this picture came from and the dude who made it literally made it a week before Captain Marvel even came out. How do you even end up being that shallow of a retarded internet white-knight?

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sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed “sneed” sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed sneed, sneed sneed “sneed” sneed sneed sneed sneed?

Ripley and Sarah had a purpose to keep on existing - live to see their family

Rey and Carol are stronk independent wymn who have no family or love interests. Nothing to root for. Makes them less human

Ripley and Sarah Connor are kind of hapless and vulnerable in their first movie and then become action heroes in their second movies.
Rey and Carol just plow right through all their confrontations without struggle and it's boring.

>incels
>there were no activists and academics making everything a teachable moment, you just dreamed all that
What do they pay you?

Why did this tweet leave out the fact that everyone loved Wonder Woman as a character and most people enjoy Black Widow?

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By this metric ET might be a Mary Sue. He just gets healing powers and shit just when it's convenient.

Yeah just keep throwing commands around, that totally works. Doesn't make you sound like a dripping douchebag either, that guy that told you that was a Russian.

ET is actually a sacriligious satire of Jesus.

ITS BECAUSE TERMINATOR AND ALIEN ARE GOOD FUCKING MOVIES AND CAMERON IS A FUCKING GOOD DIRECTOR, THATS WHY YOU FUCKING RETARDED DISNEY FUCKS

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This is true, but it's an indictment of the shitty, feminist/woke state of affairs we are in.
Both those characters would only be made now to be "tough, independent and fierce" feminists.
Both movies would be marketed as "girl power! Fuck men (especially white ones)"
And both would have obnoxious lefty fags singing their praises for all the wrong reasons, whilst condemning legitimate criticism as merely misogynist.

Unfortunately, you can't really have a nigger or a woman be anything other than shitty diversity hire characters due to the way kikish studio bullshit and twitter faggotry have developed.

well said

Bait

just like that comment about the new Terminator movie about "men shaking in their boots at the sight of a powerful woman" when there was only a short trailer
they are all like that

I decided to watch the trailer again, and it made me realise why you guys have always called Rey a "Mary Sue". She's just such an uninteresting character. She is just a bland, cookie cutter stereotype of a character. There is no depth to her whatsoever.

So she came from humble beginnings, okay. That COULD be the start of an interesting character arc. If they made her work up, train, and develop herself into a self-actualised person in the way that Luke did throughout the original trilogy. We see SOME footage of Rey training with a lightsaber (when she cuts that rock in The Last Jedi). But it's really not much.

There's not a huge amount of character development with her. She doesn't sneed to train, she doesn't have to learn anything; her powers just appear out of nowhere.

Think about how Luke is a very different character by ROTJ compared to what he is in ANH. In the first movie, he's just some bumbling farm kid. By the last movie, after much struggle, many fuck ups, and a lot of training, he's a competent Jedi Knight (he's even wearing differently clothing, which I think is good for helping to visually show a change in the character).

Rey is just the fucking same, always. Her clothes don't change, just like her character. Are there any examples of Rey screwing things up in the first movie and having to be helped along like happened with Luke? It seems she is just always powerful and has no faults whatsoever.

What a badly written character.

>everyone loved Wonder Woman
marketing brainwash. It was was terrible, particularly the character

They were right. Look how much hate it gets already here, and it's not even out yet.

>already here
It barely ever gets talked about here. The fact that you base the general consensus on a movie on what Yea Forums is really stupid.

sounds like the problem is with you, white boy
the only thing that changed over the past 30 years is right wing retards getting more bigoted,misogynistic, and violent.

>They were right.
poor cattle
it looks like a sjw Genisys and people will always reject bad things, deal with it
you won't, tho, because you are not a person

Why do you think that flat out lying can work?

>you are not a person

unintentional irony==best irony

t. hateful npc

nothing i said is a lie
the problem with media and western society today is right wingers. they have become exceeding bigoted, misogynistic, and violent over the years.

>because you are not a person
women are people, even if you hate them for none of them being able to love a vile and disgusting creature like yourself

There is none

I don't remember, at the time, SIgourney Weaver tweeting up a storm about how she gets raped on a daily basis and how hard her boohoo life is despite being a millionaire

Difference is the average /pol/tard nowadays is overly sensitive on those topics and would get easily offended is about it.
youtube.com/watch?v=tEujAIjTldk

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fuck off already with your imaginary enemies, incel

>right wingers are "imaginary"
unfortunately right wingers are real, and only true patriots (liberals) can protect western civilization from right wingers

Their movies aren't shit.

I thought ET was basically a macguffin already.

>le heroic rightwing-defeater buzzword-launching-machine

>all of his examples meet the metric he set for Rey
>he rationalizes that they're not Gary Stus because muh reasons when he could've used the same reasons to wave off Rey as a Mary Sue

Oh so they were okay when they were protesting school integration?

fair to say incels got schooled hard itt

school segregation is a problem if the white schools are better than the normal people schools
if the normal people schools are better than the white schools (as it should be), then school segregation is ok and beneficial to society

>"good" female characters like Ripley?
Ripley's priority was being a good character in a good movie and the goal was achieved honestly by skilled artists

Good, remember to keep saying incels, use the word every time you post so it "takes off." If anyone points out that it doesn't make any sense, don't argue with him, just call him a Russian.

>whites are not normal people
hateful racist

So in other words you don't understand the term and know no US history. Okay.

have sex please

>white males commit the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US today
yeah, whites are not normal

you and your fellow right wingers are the ones cheering for school segregation
your reading comprehension is terrible, you must be white (are terrorists allowed to post here?)

Learn to code.

No one really bitched about her though

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now that's a decent modern female character, even if I'm not that big of a fan of the movie

Pandering females do not have any responsibility, real problems, or reasons for doing anything.
They are given everything and at most have the most superfluous bullshit to bitch about.
Like a spoiled teen who's upset that the internet went off for 20 minutes and they can't play fortnite.

Ripley(Aliens) and Sarah Connor are good because they embody female archetypes. New characters are bad because they are intended to usurp and attack male archetypes.

Writing, basically.

This

>Ripley(Aliens)
why only in Aliens?

>If those movies came out today, then feminists would bash Ripley and Connor for being feminine and having maternal instincts.

In Terminator, Sarah Connor embodies the maiden archetype transitioning into the mother. In Terminator 2 she embodies the mother archetype. Ripley is a mother figure in Aliens. That the two characters engage in combat at times does not change this. The mother taking on aspects of the warrior is not strange or subversive when there is no masculine force to protect her and her children.

>why only in Aliens?

Because I watched Alien once many years ago but can't remember a single thing that happens in it.

Not "only" but it's clearer there (she's taking care of a child).

You are wrong.
Everyone bitched about her.
That's why they brought in bi-bo faggins to play the road warrior and gave him more scenes.

No one who says shit like this has seen Alien/s or The Terminator

If Ripley or Sarah were written today they'd be fucking niggers.

there is an alien...

That's nice and all of that.
But that person is right.
Being a mother, being vulnerable, being feminine, being strong as a woman rather then doing a poor job at being a man copy or mary sue invulnerable block of wood is bad.
These are facts.
If we are incorrect then post 10 recent examples that feminists celebrated without needing to explain this shit with ridiculous overly flowery bullshit philosophical navel gazing bullshit.

Ripley is very capable in Alien, she's only hapless insofar as an 8 foot tall dildo bug could overpower her and kill her easily because she's human.

absolute lie

goddamn I love Michael Biehn. I really hope Alien 5 gets made just so Biehn can get a big fat check.

>But that person is right.

I wasn't disagreeing, but rather expounding.

user, if they were written to day they'd either be creepily sexless freaks like rey and cap marvel and elsa.
Or mega dykes. LIke the chick from the dragon tattoo, valkyrie, and elsa in disney's creepy online grassroot lesbian pandering crap and apperance in the thankfully dead tv show about disney princesses.

I feel like most women don't really care about Rey or Captain Marvel, they're just happy that boys are forced to share their toys

Ripely and Sarah were normal women that rose to the challenge of adversity and through hard work became hero’s despite taking a beating from time to time.

Carol and Rey are Mary Sues

Her, or the whole literal feminist explanation of history thing where controlling reproduction is the key to human culture?

user, anyone here can go online and look it up.

What are you saying?

The women who post shit like the OP image don't care about Marvel movies or Star Wars movies, they just enjoy that they're meddling with things that have a primarily male audience

For some of them is exactly like thay

Dying

Jokes on you dumb cunt i'm a kumaranigger, and I'm still sick of all the pandering.

Actually no.
The real truth is that they are cynical soulless attempts to lure in women done by women who are brainwashed college whores who don't understand women, hate women, and are also sexually fucked up and only know how to concern troll and act as gate keepers to keep out talent and ideas that are actually youknow...good and genuine.

Also the gate keeping twitter social media mafia will shout down and go after any women or men who go against this bullshit they claim is good because it hits all of the brainwashed check marks/what ever businesses they are owned by tells them to rally against.

I wonder how different my life might be if I used the energy I spend hating fictional women on the internet persuing actual women

neither of those films portrayed them as inherently inferior so that they could then "Prove that gender stereotypes are stupid"

Ripley was a smart, strong woman from the start and Sarah Conner literally had a white savior impregnate her and inspire her to become strong, but she ultimately gave up and was fucking imprisoned for it

Both of those films were not trying to tell the story of stronk womyn, the sex was usually secondary

People make fun of Downey Jr all the time for him wearing lifts because he's literally 5'5".

Ten bucks says Sarah kicks a manly man in the dick for no reason.

This

I think the reason it's hard to write good female characters is because most modern male writers generally don't understand females, and female writers can't write for shit. So there's not many people that can properly tell their story.

>How often do you scrutinize the feet of Robert Downey, or Chris Hemsworth, just out of curiosity? Never?
Robert Downey? Pretty fucking often if you remember the constant manlet threads on Yea Forums where he wears those retarded boots, or behind the scenes shots where he's standing on boxes and other shit.

Sure. A good female characters will actually have to struggle and thus have the capacity for emotional investment. Now please explain how anyone can get emotionally invested in Rey or Captain Marvel if you don't count prower fantasies.

Quality of writing
Also Sneed

OH SNEED CAN YOU FEEEEED

>A statement that NEEDS to be said
This is the logic behind every single shitty Christian movie ever made Because putting your message before all else is just preaching.

Ripley wasn't a hero, she was a sole survivor on the process of elimination, who legged it after everyone else was dead. She was turned into an action hero by Cameron.
Sarah Connor didn't start out as an action hero either, she became one in the sequel, after it was explained she became a survivalist expert after being scared by the events of the first movie.

The story sucking the characters dick is what makes it pandering. The story doesnt suck Ripley's dick, so your picture is wrong and retarded, like everything else progressive: just wrong and retarded.

Sarah Connor has a good character arc over 2 films. She starts the first film as a random woman who's clumsy and inexperienced but has will. She earns her toughness throughout the T1 film. In 2 she's portrayed as a borderline psychotic, shit tier mother who damaged her son emotionally, but who was prepared and physically and mentally capable of fighting. Her actress was also jacked and really fucking looked the part. She was tough but still human and fallible - she is proven wrong by her son and by her former enemy. She wanted to kill a family man who does literally nothing wrong.

Ripley was literally just a survivor. The hyper tough bitch thing was purely a sequel thing. Watch Alien again and Ripley is just a serious, cautious person with a strong will.

How do I retweet?

Trusting the company, trusting Ash, trusting MOTHER, trusting Burke, going to the prison junkyard alone and unarmed...

Old Laurie Strode is a good character because one of her defining traits is that she's lowkey batshit insane and not really the "good guy" of the films.

>I'm too dumb to Google simple information

We know.

Alien and Terminator are great films unlike the pieces of shit the other two are in.

This.

Well if these characters came out today they would be infallible political agenda spouting Mary Sues so I guess the image is right.

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Cameron literally never visited the set of the movie because hes too busy doing other shit, google it.

Rey
>Mary Sue
>No motivation
>Not a compelling protagonist (at least in the first one)
>no distinct personality
Connor
>Cool
>Has serious flaws
>struggles against the Terminator
>compelling protagonist

Good post

>our new horrible character isn't horrible because ummmm there were other good characters who are also female
Okay

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He literally gives you the difference which is that their skills are established while her's aren't and make no sense to her backstory.

Sarah Connor in the first Terminator is a pure damsel in distress for most of the movie. Reese has to spend most of it saving her, but he teaches her stuff while they're on the run and she learns. Following a lengthy time skip, she's become even better but she's still no match for the terminators.

It simply wouldn't happen that way in a modern movie. Reese would show up and despite being a waitress, Sarah would know everything there is to know about firearms and explosives, and would be a physical match for the robots.

Notice how decent posts like this get ignored?

>PLEASE!

Are you retarded?

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mmmmmmumiiim

Ripley struggled and made mistakes, Rey and Captain Marvel do not struggle and are perfect at everything.

KILL YOURSELF

upvoted

you forgot the part where she does all the jobs on the ship better then the "men" trained to do those jobs

They were in good movies

TRIGGERED