MY NAME IS LADY BIRD!

frances ha or lady bird?

she's so quirky!

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not him but it's great because it explores how kids artificially put on extra personality as they develop while being blind to the issues of those that might be supporting them, ie why teens are the fucking worst
we watch her write the boys' names on her wall knowing it's fleeting but the feeling is genuine and nostalgic
we see people around her suffering from depression and mediocrity while she tries to make her whole life a series of Moments

also it's pretty funny
>when chalamet cites iraq war casualties literally moments after popping saoirse's cherry
>the drama teacher winning the crying exercise
>the goth Asian son and gf just being there with no explanation ever

Sounds like it's worth a watch.

Never seen the movie but if this is true then how come everyone who likes this movie uses these moments of supposed artifice in teenage life as cute “aesthetic” scenes when this is what the movie is criticizing to begin with

I agree with your views on the movie. Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I’d add as a Catholic that it was very accurate to see kids behave the way they did. Snacking on unconsecrated communion wafers is something parochial school kids would do. I enjoyed the family theme and how she kinda grew out the “series of moments” mindset and became more realistic at the end. In the final call to her mom dropping the Lady Bird and referring to herself as Christine. Her moms name is Marion (Christ & Mary). Several kino moments

sayorsee is my dopey irish wife

>not the guy you’re replying to
I think because people are kind of idiotic and miss obvious symbolism. The writer of this movie was not condoning her selfish bratty behavior and if you watch the whole movie it ends with the hope that she’s growing up and realizing she shouldn’t be ashamed of a middle class background and not be so loose with who she sleeps with.

This is a good analysis of it.
I also liked how it looked at the nature of youth counterculture and rebellion at the end.
So the whole film she's been trying to rebel against her family, her christian school, her small town culture, but really all those things are quite supportive of her and positive.
And when she moves into NYC she reverts back to her actual name, seems scornful of the culture there, calls her mother, and visits a church for comfort.

Is her rebellious phase over, or has she adopted what is now a counter-culture, of small town conservative values in the context of her new liberal world at an arts school in nyc?

Another thing I really liked about it was how insightfully the film looked at her parents characters and how they affected her. Like how for a teen film, there's the trope that she is insecure around the rich kids. And the film had a really good generational explanation for that, which it reveals later, around how her mother considers class relationships and how she used to take her to open homes in rich neighbourhoods and pretends they're wealthy.

From the trailer this looked like indie movie the indie movie.

idk, those people probably just enjoyed the meetcute setups and blocked out how nothing actually pans out? basic people who just wanted quirky I guess

wow I never considered the names, definitely kino

also beanie feldstein absolutely deserves the success she's been having since this film

Yes she was great. Prom night scene showed Christine was class act to ditch the Howard Zinn reader and his snobby friends to hang out with her best friend at her apartment.

yea it's such a holistic view of teen development, complete with imperfect parents with an imperfect relationship

I think it's one of the first times I've seen a jolly gentle dad who would do anything for his daughter be revealed as pretty much a depressed failure, and even then it doesn't dwell on this

the cool thing is this movie has zero melodrama, it moves swiftly through a lot of characters and conflicts but never feels preachy or sensational
it really heightens the realism I think

He was even supportive of the son at the job interview. He took the piercings out of his face too. The dad was a hero despite his career failings. If you watch the movie again pause it and read the notepad letters her mom wrote her before going to New York. I teared up

>how come everyone who likes this movie uses these moments of supposed artifice in teenage life as cute “aesthetic” scenes
Because being a teenager is great as much as it is awful and typical teenage fuckups and delusions and 'time wasted' is still charming as hell despite how flawed it is in retrospect.

Also, they don't. You're just smug and superior about a strawman.

I liked it. The ending made me feel empty and sad.

Empty and sad was not at all what I felt. I loved when she walked to church and teared up at the choir.

>tfw you never had any of these charming, great, awkward, memorable teenage experiences everyone is always going on about
>tfw you spent all your teenage years alone in your room posting on Yea Forums

awkward, memorable yes
charming, great no

I think most people hated high school
don't waste yourself thinking you missed out on something great

>How does a man decide in what order to abandon his life?
>All the time you spend tryin to get back what's been took from you there's more goin out the door.

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you didn't find lady bird charming?

This is how I saw the film. I know Armond White praised it too. But this is made by a huge feminist sjw. So do you think she made an accidental conservative film, or are we misinterpreting the whole thing?

The director said she identified with Timothy's character but that's weird because I thought the whole movie was exposing nihilistic and aimless people like him.

In fact, I thought the film ended on a note which kinda endorsed Christianity, and railed against the hipster counter culture. shit.

they adopted the mexican son because they couldn’t have a baby. i think the mother had lady bird at 40 or something and was her ‘miracle’ child. think it says this in the letter at the end

You've been sold a false dichotomy of liberals vs conservatives.
If you look closely, many of the best recent liberal films will be highly critical of liberal behavior, attitudes and ideas.
The Square and Winter Sleep are two strong examples.

Also, self deprecation and critical introspection are tenets of rational people, not of hypocrites.

The director is a big atheist and feminist. Is this kind of a pro religion, pro family, anti nihilism film? Because I'm surprised she would make this film, and why did so many critics love it since they normally oppose these values

>pro religion, pro family
In a sense, yes, in others, no.
It's a nuanced film is what it is.

The man of the cloth drama teach is deeply depressed. He does not find solace in god. He is however, a good man, and has a very positive inpact on his students.
Lady Bird's mother loves her a lot, and Lady Bird causes her suffering. But we are also shown how her upbringing has messed her up, how her mother taking her as a voyeur into rich people's homes has given her a bad inferiority complex. And Lady Bird acts selfishly, demanding her parents support her in studying in New York. But the film does not show whether that pays off or not for them as a family. If this is Greta Gerwig's autobiography, and her parent's had made those sacrifices for her, her 'selfishness' would by now have been totally validated.
If it's a prequel to Frances Ha, maybe not.

Sure, I know libs and far left aren't the same. But to clarify, Greta Gerwig is not just a liberal, but she's very far left. Huge sjw and an atheist. And many critics share those beliefs.

So I'm wondering how she wrote a film that is seen as typical conservative values, although I accept they can be liberal too. For instance pro religion, against nihilism, pro family, anti sex liberation etc.

The Square is amazing. I read many reviews for it and Armond White is like the only critic to point out how it looks like it's a critique against the nihilistic, anti family, anti religion counter culture.

Almost everyone leaves out her going back to church, taking her Christian name again etc. Did these critics only like it because it's well directed, acted, and could be interpreted as feminist since it's a coming of age for young women?

self deprecation, critical introspection, and concessions to the validity of other points of view are very often found on the 'far left'.

I think the ending is ambiguous. Does she cease rebelling and adopt her family, religion, name and conservative culture? Or, does she adopt them in rebellion of her new circumstances, in a liberal art school environment, where rejecting the church, having a wierd name and not speaking to your mother are all normal things suddenly?

Is it an end to rebellion, or a continuation of it?

I think ultimately the change for her is not that she 'accepts' all of those things, family, church, etc. But that she decides they're not abhorrent, or scary or worth defining herself in opposition to. That they're part of her identity, but don't have to be a big part of it, either for, or against.

Because her time with her religious school and family wasn't horrible but it wasn't great either. She doesn't have an epiphany about how fantastic it was.

Ah, that's an interesting way to read it. A continuation of rebellion. Honestly I think she is genuinely changed, though.

Any idea as to why so many critics loved it but left out the religious and pro family and anti hipster shit out of their reviews? If this film was made by Eastwood or an old white Republicans do you think it would've still gotten so much praise?

Critical introspection is essentially the bedrock of dramatic storytelling.

Self deprecation, critical introspection, and concessions to the validity of other points of view are fundamentally different to making fun of others, criticizing others and saying how great you are. So Greta Gerwig's version of this film is fundamentally different to Clint Eastwoods. And she does really poignantly capture the likeable qualities of her protagonist, in a way an outsider to the character of ladybird could not. I would say even that the weakest part of the film is chalamet's character, who is not nuanced and the one non-sympathetic character who is basically just a shithead/ piece of comic relief, in the entire film.

>why are reviewers not insightful
i don't know lol

>Honestly I think she is genuinely changed, though.
I think it's both. Especially in the context of lady bird and frances ha being the same character.

I do not know anything about this movie but for some bizarre reason I keep assuming the girl has cancer and we see her last few years over the course of the film.

But that critical introspection is missing in so many films. The Sqaure, Lady Bird, The House The Jack Built are just a few that are like this recently. It seems like most of Hollywood would rather make fun of the opposing side, praise themselves for being morally superior, and paint people who aren't in their groupthink as morons.

Kek

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>That sudden cut to black at the end

I think she died. Is it possible that last scene was on 9/11?

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trad kino

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It captures being a High Schooler during the Bush years really well.

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Most hollywood films are shallow and only superficially masquerade their supposed 'values' copy pasted from actual progressives, to cynically appeal to certain demographics. Those are films produced to make money, not because of artistic authorial intent from the filmmakers.

It's not like it's hard to avoid shitty hollywood films either, or that there aren't a lot of great American and other dramas/ indie films/ festival films like LadyBird being made which don't fall in the same traps.

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>Because being a teenager is great as much as it is awful and typical teenage fuckups and delusions and 'time wasted' is still charming as hell despite how flawed it is in retrospect.
Is it? tfw I wasted away my teens being an antisocial shut in who made no charming fuckups or had any cute teen moments.

I will never experience what it's like to really be a teen. Its over

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this has to be one of the most overrated films i've seen in the last 5 years. i thought i would at least get something out of it considering how much praise it was getting but all the characters were one dimensional, unlikeable and didnt have any interesting qualities about them. most of the jokes were painfully unfunny and all the relationships felt forced and unbelievable. most of the characters felt like a stereotype of some sort and when all these stereotypes were interacting in the same scene it felt jagged and incredibly disingenuous

just don't waste the rest of your life bro

i bet you can think back years to a time when you already thought you had wasted your life, and would now wish you could return to that point, because now it seems like you had a lot of opportunities then and was being foolish thinking you'd wasted your life already.

Well you'll feel like that in the future too.

Damn.. brianna wu looks like THAT?

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>all the characters were one dimensional
What an odd criticism of this film.
It's only true for the rich kid clique.

>If you look closely, many of the best recent liberal films will be highly critical of liberal behavior, attitudes and ideas.
I'm not American and I've noticed that there is a lot of self criticism coming from the American left but never from the right.

What gives?

LADY BIRD IS THE GOAT

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Adam Curtis explains this in an interesting way in his series 'The Power of Nightmares'.
That often on the right, complex issues are depicted as simple good vs evil morality tales.

And so any nuance is impossible.

I was in high school from late Bush to early Obama (2007 - 2011) any kinos depicting that period?

>Live literally in the best country in the whole world
>say you has some problem
>white and woman

Dropped

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>arms outstretched like the Dude
this has to be one of the funniest teen sex scenes in film history
I was probably this shitty in hs to my first fucks

no i think this applies to the main characters as well. lady bird is this special "artistic soul" who thinks she is being restrained by her over controlling mother when she really is just a whining brat. how many times has this character existed before? i dont know. also the film constantly reminds us - or at least the mother says - that the family is poor when they always seem to be having decent meals, lady bird has a decent sized room with lots of her own stuff in it, she has clothes, goes to a school, has friends etc. etc. i have a hard time feeling she is disadvantaged or in a compromised situation

Also, in terms of drama, a lot of it is quite bogus. For example, filmmakers will highlight their issues in the same way as someone being ransomed might release their own nudes. Like, I put it out there, therefor I am immune to criticism.
Often filmmakers explore their issues in drama to show self awareness, but also to totally cement their own character and ideas and utterly refuse to ever change them. That they have made the criticisms themselves now, so they are immune to criticism. Like a kind of self referential controlled opposition.

Or, it's funny. And right wingers prefer to laugh at others than themselves.

Or, left wingers are self loathing losers with no real convictions.

literally this. are we actually supposed to sympathise for lady bird?

How often do you engage in self-pity lad? Do you think that YOU have real problems?

damn man you really, really missed the point
nothing you said was untrue, but there was a lot more going on than what you saw

like what?

seems like you just highlighted a lot of multi faceted elements to the film lad, when you're trying to argue that it's one dimensional.

It had some moments that makes it more sincere than wall flower but it also has some moments that tells you just shut your brain and sensibility off.
That moment when they get football coach to direct the drama and he draws a tactical diagram for example breaks the immersion.
I know it tries to convey that the folks may not be sophisticated or professional but they are all kindhearted. But I think it's just exploiting the stereotype of football.

>Chalamet popped my waifu's cherry then became a gay in Your Name
I know complaining such a trivial thing makes me a lady bird.

Here's an obvious example. Lady Bird's mother took her as a child to rich houses open homes. As a kind of voyeurism into the upper class. So, as a teenager, Lady Bird pretends to be upper class and has a big inferiority complex.

That is a way in which her mother HAS actually messed her up, and is clearly at fault for her problems. But, it's not something Lady Bird herself ever realises. So she is angry at her mother for 'ruining her life' or whatever angsty teenage issues, ignores how her mother actually has fucked her life up, and has actually been fucked up somewhat by her mother, who really only has good intentions.

That's not 'one dimensional', that's complex. Did you understand that in the film?

>Like a kind of self referential controlled opposition

Can you give examples of films like this? I don't fully understand.

it's a joke

No, haha why would you think that at all

She isn't some artistic soul, that's the point of her character
She isn't disadvantaged at all, that's what she comes to appreciate
Her family is poor, she just has no idea because her parents work hard to keep her from being disadvantaged, which is a revelatory moment for her later when she learns her dad is secretly chronically depressed

And this is just in response to the things you listed

Um you say right wingers don't do this but Zahler does it and Clint Eastwood has done it a few times.

Check out Craig Zahler if you want recentl examples of someone right leaning doing this

because of the hoards of art hoes larping as in her public who think "she is literally me". if you read any of the reviews on letterboxd a lot of people say this is the apparently most relateable character ever

Like how Woody Allen is constantly making fun of/ criticising himself for being neurotic and pretentious with caricatures of himself, and so it's not valid to call his films neurotic and pretentious, or his characters or himself neurotic and pretentious, because it's 'deliberate' and all part of his schtick.

But he's not not going to be neurotic and pretentious. He's not working out his issues so that he can change or anything.

mah name is travis
ah ahm tha moon stah

Well obviously i'm generalizing.
>craig zahler
I've only seen Bone Tomohawk and i thought that was one of the most milquetoast bland and utterly pointless films, which was still somewhat well made, that i've ever seen.

Just like, nothing interesting about it whatsoever.

Yeah this is clearly an autobiographical movie about a girl going to a big Liberal city to be an actress and we know how that turned out with the writer irl. That phone call was weird, talks more about her love of poor shitty conservative towns than love for each other.

That's true conservatives are all about morality. I read johnathon heidts book "the righteous mind" about morality and he says in his study that conservatives were very good at knowing how liberals think but liberals are terrible at guessing how conservatives think. Also says conservatives are more fearful of danger whereas liberals are more open to new experiences and diversity of life and its set in our dna. That's the only series by Adam Curtis I've not seen, I'll check it out.

hardly a super valid reason to develop an inferiority complex. teenagers are always exposed to rich lifestyles in the media all the time except most of them don't act become assholes because of it.

Hows your life?

A lion doesn't concern itself with the opinion of sheep.

Yes it's a movie for thots to relate to but this thread is presumably full of men who clearly found it extremely compelling without ever having been teen girls themselves.

she's got the best eyes in hollywood

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>teenagers picking their own odd names
they did this in breaking bad too. Is this even a thing? I've never seen it happen.

hmm yeah.
well once you've seen one adam curtis film you've kind of seen them all lol. bitter lake was my favourite

youtube.com/watch?v=x1bX3F7uTrg

have you seen that too. i like adam curits a lot, but it's spot on

>we know how that turned out with the writer irl.
Or, it's a prequel to Frances Ha and it doesn't turn out well.

i didnt like this movie

me too, user, me too

Oh, so you're saying they don't acting want to change when they criticize themselves, instead they want to play it off as charming or quirky?

Any reason why a lot of right wingers don't do this? Why don't they make these complex characters like Game of Thrones (before it was shitty) and just do basic good vs evil characters

I agree about Bone Tomahawk actually. Please watch Cell Block 99 and Dragged Across Concrete. They are actually well written and self reflective.

yea I hated him for taking my waifu too, and I resented her for wanting his basic ass

god, Saoirse is something else
she and Debicki complete me

>in his study that conservatives were very good at knowing how liberals think but liberals are terrible at guessing how conservatives think.

If this were true, then how did Greta Gerwig do such a good job writing a film with conservative values, if she's such a huge feminist sjw?

yeah more or less, but that's obviously not what all self criticism is, it's just a thing, not everything.

>Why don't right wingers make complex characters and just do basic good vs evil characters
Because they view the world that way. And they view the purpose of stories as more or less propoganda, or as vapid entertainment which is meant to be simple and based on cliches. Or maybe they're just less self obsessed, so aren't interested in deep nuanced character studies, because they don't waste their time thinking about themselves in those terms.

Who knows man, it's complicated.

Btw, the guy who wrote Taxi Driver is a right winger, right? Paul Schrader. Or is just religious but a lib?

not him but
The left see vulnerability as virtuous and generally have a more complex view of what makes people good or bad
The right rarely feel this way and try to be virtuous by being traditionally good or successful

Which is why the free market is so appealing to the right, it's the cutthroat meritocracy they think the world should operate as
The problem with the left is they understand the world and people are more complex, but use that depth of understanding to imply a moral superiority over the right (I don't know if there's actually a correct way for the world to work)
Thus the untenable conflict of left v right

Have you seen first reformed? Beautiful film of his. I'd say he's probably a liberal. Especially along enviromental lines, and in terms of regulation of big buisiness to that end. Really though, often it's a semantic issue whether someone is 'right' or 'left' wing and not such a helpful way of framing the ideas of creative people.

>But this is made by a huge feminist sjw
yes

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sanctimony is indeed the worst trait of the left, especially as they are often just as self serving on an individual level, if not more, as others, and tend to view generosity on an abstract political level, but are selfish on a personal one, whereas conservatives will do anything for people they know but wouldn't blink an eye at firebombing chinks or cutting all social services or generally fucking whoever else they've never met.

that is a pretty sick burn though

I'm not a centrist or libertarian, I do lean right. But from what I understand, the right lacks some compassion and the ability to understand the complexity of some humans, but the left doesn't recognize that evil exists and some cultures are better, and violence is sometimes necessary. Is that about right?

imagine finally having a child after years of failure, ie being validated as a biological part of human history
and you work your ass off for her to grow up to reject her hometown and you and not see what you went through to bring her into this world

adds a lot to this moment
a basic teen bitch doesn't understand an abortion yet, it's just something that gets in the way of sexual freedom
but for her own mother, becoming pregnant was life's miracle

kino af

Impossible to disagree.

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You sound like a zoomer who learned "right and left" from sjw parents and comedy central who nevee had a conversation with right leaning people.

You also sound very elitist.

'evil' exists on an individual level but it's massively blown out of proportion as a political boogeyman to wage neo-liberal wars, largely for ulterior motives than 'propagating good in the world'

and reducing complex political struggles and social issues to terms of 'good vs evil' is a tenet of many outright evil movements like AL Qaeda. You can slip some pretty evil shit under the radar if you think in terms of 'good and evil', and you're good and therefor anything you do is righteous and your enemies don't deserve any empathy or attempts to understand their motivations, as they are just evil.

wow what a lot of buzzwords in response to a discussion of ideas.

that's just an insult you retard, a good one

Has anyone here watched Under the Silver Lake? That movie really confused and has me wondering about what it all means. These are a couple of interpretations

>the film exposes the hipster druggie sex filled nihilistic lifestyle and mentions how toxic mainstream music and film can be and how it's all propaganda

Or

>The film is about toxic masculinity and how men sexualize women

Or

>The director is using Garfield's character to criticize himself but it's done in that Woody Allen way, where he plays it off as cute and doesn't actually want to change and accepts nihilism

Yea basically, and I think WWII vs Vietnam War is the best example of the two periods when the two sides were most "correct"

A right-wing Vietnam movie about going in and liberating the people with capitalism and democracy sounds as dumb as a self-critical WWII movie about how Marines might have been overly cruel toward Japs or Germans

Notice that almost all wars since WWII have been super complex with ambiguous and questionable reasons for engagement, hence why the left has been slowly becoming the dominant way of thinking, at least for general public media

Not that user but can you explain it because I'm confused too?

Simple morality tales are the ones that stand the test of time and become legends.

A lot of conservatives would be for regulating big business and for conserving the environment as moral issues. This is what I meant with liberals not understanding them as well.

Most interesting Adam Curtis documentaries to me are the first episode of Century of Self about Freud that confirms conspiracy theories can be true and episode 3 of All Watched over by machines of love and grace about tribes and genes.

Also this debate has made me like the film a little bit more but the actress parts make it a little too self indulgent and hyper liberal which critics will say is the point but it was just irritating.

>this dumb soulless flick about first world white girl problems has fucking 4.0 on letterboxd

probably somewhere a combination of all three. i think the best part of that film was going down this absolutely insane rabbit hole with the main character. i didn't feel dissatisfied that not everything was resolved. i don't think the movie had to take responsibility for every detail the way it was setup and the way it was presented

>A lot of conservatives would be for regulating big business and for conserving the environment as moral issues. This is what I meant with liberals not understanding them as well.

The absolute supremacy of the unregulated free market is basically the most fundamental tenet of right wing ideology. So insofar as a 'right wing' person believes in environmental regulation, it is pushing them to the left. Regardless of whether it is a moral issue or not.

and so does booksmart. it's even got one of the same actors. letterbox users truly are a special phenomenon

Shakespeare stories aren't simple good vs evil, user. And he was pretty liberal

>he's literally crying about white privilege, even though he doesn't realize it

should all films about people's problems be set in africa, and star virgin losers in their mid 20s, because those are the only people with real problems?

If liberals don't understand Conservatives well then how do you explain Lady Bird? Or is that just fall under the exception box?

That's fair.
In order to enjoy this movie you basically have to watch a spoiled white girl be realistically and hilariously insufferable. Also the mom is a total shrew. I just really enjoyed the humor and that the movie doesn't let either of these characters off the hook for their faults, but they do seem to begin to grow past them as growing up forces them to.

>spoiled
her household is hardly stable
her dad is badly depressed and her mother has serious issues also. It's a loving house and they do provide for her, but it's hardly a great upbringing.

I just wonder what his politics are, after having this discussion tonight. He's the same guy who did It Follows and didn't that film kinda come off as a message warning people to not sleep around?

Kek

spoiled is probably the wrong word, I mean a girl who takes her relatively comfortable upbringing for granted

>tfw this was your upbringing and you used to shit on your parents for your own shortcomings but they were just doing their best and nothing is perfect

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>I was truly a Lady Bird after all
Jesus Christ

yeah people really need to check their privelage. I am sick of seeing films about white people's problems, they should make more films about people who actually struggle to eat and don't have clean water and inherit aids and die in horrific wars and suffer famine and stuff like that, yaknow, coloureds.

oh well you can be nice to them now hopefully

there are a lot of films that deal with day to day problems but some how make them significant in some sort of way but this film just trivialised them by showing how unreasonable lady bird was. maybe a more subtle approach would have worked? im not sure

yea we're great now
just gave them a hard time they didn't deserve

It's a value I see a lot from conservatives. I remember Tucker Carlson saying "The free market is a tool. It works for us and you'd be a fool to worship it."

Yeah you're right. I respect how he could find liberal hopefulness in tragedies. Also his stories were already based on existing legends.

tucker carlson is just right wing damage control about neo libs fucking over working people
his ideas are leftism until he ties them into fearmongering around race and conservative social values.

I even heard him arguing for a higher capital gains tax the other day.

"But Greta says I can't wear panties...."