Is “subverting expectations” for the sake of shock value really an effective storytelling tactic...

I think subverting expectations can be done right, but I can only think of one instance it was done right...

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>They're basically saying 'I dont want to have my view of the world challenged by a work of art'.
t. doesn't understand what am archetype is

>Yes people do love archetypal stories. But are we sure thats a good thing?
It's not necessarily a bad thing. I like China Town, even though the ending was devastating. I wouldn't want to watch a 76 hour long series with same ending, though.

Any other subversive kinos?

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>If your logic is true then there’s no reason to watch or read anything a second time ever again because no matter how good, the second read wont challenge your worldview.

Most people watch something once and then never again. Again. Internets fault. The hive mind makes it impossible to enjoy anything even if you try to remain in the dark in regards to a story as possible. Because they'll recognize the pattern and say 'I've seen this story before'.

Most people dont want their views challenged though. And thats why we got these godawful disney remakes

I'm not saying 'go as extreme as D&D did. But there has to be somewhere between 'giving them what they want and boring them' and 'not giving them what they want and angering them'. Regrettably people in Hollywood dont care for nuance.

I just wanted him to be happy. But he couldn't because George is a bitter old fuck.

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Dvd sales would prove you wrong. People love fulfilling stories. Subversion, if done right can be great. Neds death was peak Thrones. Jon fucking off to the North is not good subversion.

Unpopular opinion time. It's the most original creative concept film has ever come up with. Yea Forums contrarians hate it because it isn't their idea.

He rejected his claim, rejected his dog, rejected his aunt and then murdered his aunt. I know that the show isn't 100% GRRM's vision (not that it matters now, of course), but that shit sucks.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with challenging preconceived storytelling notions. It’s all about intention and execution.

I think the problem is that Hollywood is too generate to understand true heroism, beauty and goodness anymore, therefore they are unable to tell a compelling story with those elements and try to compensate with doing silly "haha gotcha, you didnt expect that" bullshit.
It's not that predictable movies are bad because they are predictable. It's because their heroism is insincere and their goodness false.
Hollywood is so far gone they think that truly beautiful, moral and good inspiration can be abstracted into a pattern ("heroic journey") and then successfully repeated without understanding or "feeling" what they are actually trying to tell.
It's what quintessentially defines modern movies. They are superficially "heroic" and "great" but it all feels insincere and hollow and unsatisfying, because it is not real. The overanalyzed framework of a perfectly told "heroic journey" does not supplement true heroism, it tries to obfuscate its absence.
It's in all the little nigh subconscious details. Like a singer can sing a song and hit all the right notes skillfully, yet it can still sound uninspired and lifeless if he doesn't truly feel it. He can try to feign the inspiration, but it doesn't truly work and turns into false spiritual bravado instead.

Whats worse is that he took the black again and probably won’t have kids. What a raw fucking deal.

There is something wrong with making a protagonist a secret prince who murders his aunt/girlfriend and doesn't get to rule afterwards. After decades of buildup. There is also no message there.

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I agree with you, I wasn’t defending GoT. Just saying that subversion itself isn’t to blame, it’s the execution. The Red Wedding was great because it subverts the view of the hero who gets out of situations, the safety of a wedding/covenant, etc. not because of the blood and gore (what the braindead audiences only care about).

>what if i built up some event then ruined it at the last second, like when a character is about to do something interesting he just shits his pants and dies instead, teeheeheehee

Just like....real life....woah

>Yea Forums contrarian
Do you even understand what "contrarian" means?

The fandom itself was tainted. By the latter half of the series, quality was deciphered by how many people died. The series, as a whole, evolved into misery porn with no meaning.

If theres a single thing to take away from the reaction to certain movies and shows. People do not want realistic. We get enough 'realistic' from cable news covering the most recent terrorist attack or mass shooting.

This. GRRM was subversive, but was still building upon archetypal tropes. Dumb and Dumbfuck thought the show was all about cocks, murder and scat humor

It depends on what the filmmaker gives you. I think of it like being a kid and seeing your parents put a giant gift wrapped box under the Christmas tree with your name on it. Come Christmas morning when you open the box and find it's mostly empty except for an envelope at the bottom with tickets to Disney Land then your expectations are subverted but in a way that's rewarding. If you look inside and the only thing in there is a pair of socks to go along with your mom and dad giggling like retards then your expectations have been subverted for no good reason at all.

Is there anything realistic about any of this shit, book or show? I'm not talking fantasy-wise. As far as this shit ending is concerned, is it believable? Does it have a message?