Now that they're extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if your strip away the myth and look at their deeds...

Step back and think about it. Regardless of whether Luke’s Take is right or wrong, Johnson is still a retard. Here’s why:

Luke has had thirty years to reflect on all he’s learned in the time from RotJ until TFA(I’d make a distinction between TFA and TLJ, but because of Johnson’s incompetence, they take place literally hours apart), which means that either Luke spent all that time in contemplation only to be completely wrong, which doesn’t exactly jibe with him being a worthy mentor, or he’s “right,” which means Retard fundamentally misunderstood the fall of the Jedi Order and the Republic.

There is no good option here.

He's not wrong. With the prequels, Lucas took a giant steaming shit on the Jedi. Instead of being characters you root for in the OT, you hate Yoda and Kenobi for being incompetent assholes.

Bravo George!

The Jedi were objectively bad people though and you don't know what postmodernism is/means.

He doesn't have to be completely wrong or completely right. He's sort of right, it's merely a valid perspective. You can logically refute it, sure. But you're missing the forest for the trees on the larger idea he has.

Rey doesn't conclude that he's right or wrong. And she doesn't seek to totally emulate him either. But rather to try to understand his perspective and then find her own path.

The whole master student dichotomy amongst the jedi is deeply flawed to begin with, and taking the instruction with a grain of salt is the only really sensible option, as it has always been. So too as an audience can we take what Luke says with a grain of salt.

You sound like an autist, the Jedi weren't in a decline during the events of TPM or AOTC, literally at all. It wasn't until the war happened that they became spread too thin and were losing momentum.

Read up on the fucking canon, holy shit.

Quick question, does Rey know that Luke is Vader's son? I can't remember if that is ever brought up.

>taking the instruction with a grain of salt is the only really sensible option, as it has always been

I was always under the impression that once a Jedi graduated from being a disciple, they would seek out their own path and choose whether to follow their master's philosophy, or create their own. A disciple talking back to his master is as counterproductive as it gets, they don't know shit about shit at that point.

>Luke has had thirty years to reflect on all he’s learned in the time from RotJ until TFA
and dude come on, spending 30 years on a remote island alone, best case scenario you have some insights and get enlightened, but either way you're going insane and coming up with a bunch of nonsense.

No. He’s completely wrong. Neither Yoda, nor Qui-gon, nor Kenobi, nor Windu represent the Jedi at the height of their power. They are the ghosts of glory. They are the melancholy reminder of a better time, but even at the “height” of their power, they were *still* vestiges of the Jedi’s former greatness.

Their lack of passion and their death-grip on tradition are the reasons why others mock them for being a tired old religion.

not if he's half of full shit as you yourself are saying he is

You need to familiarize yourself with what it means to be a civilization/organization/society that’s suffering a decline. It’s not about a loss of competence; it’s about a loss of drive and clarity.

He wasn’t there for the entire thirty years. Five to ten, tops.

you still lose your mind after even 5 years with no sex or meaningful relationships with people

and how exactly he knows any of that if every jedi is death and all the archives destroyed

What’s worse, Johnson implies that in all that time, Luke’s never even read the texts he’s ranting about.

you said decline to mean political influence and power, which they had plenty of right up to the start of Revenge of the Sith.

Just admit you said a dumb thing.

Not if you’re a highly disciplined acetic.

There was literally fucking nothing in the OT to imply that Luke has the attention-span to read ancient alien texts.

>you hate Yoda and Kenobi for being incompetent assholes.
Why would you hate characters for not being mary sues?

>have access to ghosts
>have access to seeing any point in history
>"HURR HOW DO HE KNOW?"

>the most powerful Sith lord, works a few buildings down the road on your street
>you literally interact with him on a weekly basis
>this isn't incompetent

No, I said decline, meaning that regardless of what power and influence they might still wield, they lack the drive and clarity of purpose to do anything meaningful with it. They are conflicted and unsure of a way forward and play directly into Palpatine’s hand.

If you’re incapable of using your power to good effect, how “powerful” are you?

Nothing but the entire third movie.

>you still lose your mind after even 5 years with no sex or meaningful relationships with people

I've been going on 27 and am still doing fine.

>they didn't do anything meaningful
Are you just pretending to be retarded now? They were conducting a galaxy-wide fucking war.

Not him but this is getting tautological. The Jedi would not have been at the height of their powers by definition, if by powerful you mean how effectively they used their power.

So by your definition what Luke says is not only wrong, but doesn't even make logical sense.
So maybe consider that he is saying something which does make sense, in which case, rework your definition to fit the other anons.

you're both somewhat correct that it was and wasn't the height of their powers.

Where in Return does he ever sit down and read?

again a character being flawed is more interesting than a mary sue

>So you see, Rey, it's clearly the Jedi's fault that Kylo Ren turned to the Dark Side, not mine! Fuck them and fuck you too! Nyah-nyah!

Yeah, that was being orchestrated by their greatest enemy, using troops programmed to turn traitor on them at a single command.

It wasn't Luke's fault.

Yeah, and that’s precisely my point. Their “height,” as well as the Republic’s, was well behind them.

The plan didn't go into action until Revenge of the Sith, what is wrong with your brain? The whole reason Sheev set the war up in the first place, was to cloud their connection to the Force and have Jedi spread everywhere.

The war ITSELF, was planned and orchestrated by the Council in conjunction with the Senate. You aren't seemingly understanding the points being made to you.

It's not just a flaw, prequelfag. It's fundamentally retarded to their characters.

you're not very smart are you lad

>Dooku tells Obi-Wan that a Sith Lord controls the senate
>Yoda ignores this and lets a giant war happen instead of investigating it
What does this have to do with being mary sues?

He completes his training in the time between ESB and RotJ. He demonstrates every single trait you expect from a man who’s grown into some wisdom - patience, mercy, restraint, compassion, a serenity that it takes a great deal of psychological duress to break even momentarily.

This is a man who reads.

It's what, a single year between ESB and RoTJ? Yoda's training was over the span of a week, I never thought that Luke was literally a Jedi Master, just that the emergency circumstances required him to be called one, since he was the last. Yoda calls him the last Jedi, not the last Master.

I’m clearly a great deal smarter than you are. You think that the Terran Empire of WH40K is meant to represent humanity at the height of their power?

yeh, it was that nasty fucker Snoke what made him ignite his lightsaber and give little Ben the fright of his life, his treachery knows no bounds

>Influence
Sorta.
Good will? Yes
Reach? No.

>Power
They ended up using a Sith army intended for a Sith army, provided by a Sith sockpuppet.

They couldn't even get boots on the ground in The Phantom Menace unless they had a side to pick in a civil war.
And they spend most of Clone Wars(both movie and the TV-show) with the same issues of having little to no power or reach.

So they have:
1. Little to no political power outside of being precogs and The Force
2. No standing army or faction to wage war, or a real spy network
3. Weak as shit. Nothing they have is at Palpatines level.
4. They don't have some sort of alliances to back them up. This shows up again and again in Clone Wars, where they have to side with random infighting factions to maybe work towards political goals

Attached: Dune_messiah_cover.jpg (1500x2000, 302K)

Meanwhile, in better written Star Wars media...

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At that point, Luke's premonition skills are most likely god-tier, like Anakin's. So maybe you can forgive a single spergfit he had where he worried about another Vader. If he could be completely sure that Kylo was beyond saving, then it would be only logical to take steps to prevent that. But he didn't. All he did was ignite the saber and start crying.

Yeah, what a bad guy.

It doesn’t matter *when* it went into action, the fact remains that it was always the plan, and they were manipulated into taking the role in it that Palpatine mapped out for them. Palpatine manufactured both the threat as well as the solution with the same goal - absolute power in his hands - and it was brought to him through one of the oldest tools in existence: fear.

>Jedi weren't in a decline during the events of TPM or AOTC
Yoda himself explicitly says in AOTC (before the war) that the order has become filled with arrogance which clouds their judgement.

I don´t give a shit about star wars.

>And they spend most of Clone Wars(both movie and the TV-show) with the same issues of having little to no power or reach.
That's quite literally, objectively incorrect. You didn't watch the fucking show.

You’re right. He’s no master, but the Luke we see by the time of RotJ is a man on the path to real wisdom.

That's not what i'm saying.

You keep saying incorrect things.

That doesn't change anything I said. That's just Yoda going "kids these days".

Well it's pretty obvious that New Luke uses the Jedi library as a toilet and he wipes his ass with pages from the SACRED JEDI TEXTS. Why do you think he's so upset when Yoda sets the place on fire?

Luke not killing Kylo then and there resulted in the following:
>5 planets blowing up, killing trillions
>another Death Star
>Han's death
>the utter destruction of the Rebellion
>his sister getting blown the fuck out into space
Luke should have done the universe a favor.

no one remembers the jedi, but darth coke on the other hand

Blame Lucas for writing them like a bunch of retarded gay monks.

Did you even watch Clone Wars? The Republic as a political machine is impressive, at the cost of EVERYTHING for non central systems.
So in Clone Wars they either go somewhere for the sake of Political favors for the Republic, or go to planets that might take a side in the Clone Wars. But they generally achieve very little, and have few resources.

Meanwhile in something like Dune, both the factions Gene Gessereit and The Navigators had the galaxy by the balls for centuries.
Paul ends up consalidating the empire, by holding the galaxies balls even harder.
And Leto II, the God emperor Shaitan? He holds it even tighter, as he breeds humanity for millenniums, towards a grand shadow plan.

Go samefag somewhere else than user.
Because I am not even the poster you replied to.

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>Good things should never exist because sometimes they stop being good

TLJ was pure kino.
Star wars fans are just retards.

This was the best part of the movie and the film would've been kino if it probably focused entirely on this concept. Luke was completely fucking right and the entire prequel trilogy was George trying to how us this. I'm convinced this line was a concept from George they kept while throwing out the rest of his ideas.

If an organization that has existed longer than your whole race has been civilized tells you what to do, you'll probably assume they're right.

That's the big thing, they easily had the power to stop Sheev but their way of going about it was lukewarm. They thought if they just kept doing their jedi thing they would prevail (and they were partially correct, they stopped half a dozen of sheevs' plans) but no one even considered proactively going after the sith

That's because Lucas is a talentless hack who wrote the Jedi as all being complete idiots in the prequels.

This. Luke also is and always will be rather impulsive. Him getting spooked by every part of the force telling him Ben is evil and drawing his Lightsaber out of instinct isn't all that out of character. He regretted it immediately and realized he was kinda being an asshole.

Yeah, just not enough to do anything about besides go into hiding, abandoning his friends as well as the rest of the Galaxy to the burgeoning nu-Empire and their not-Sith leaders.

What a champion.

You don't know what objectively means.

I do? Are you having some sort of a stroke?

Only good guys in the Star Wars universe are the common blokes. Atton Rand said so.

F(fourth)PBP

He’s not talking about the original trilogy.

The Jedi definitely weren't in decline in the events of TPM and the start of the Clone Wars. They had massive political power and the admiration of the public. They had the military knowledge to be immediately put as generals for massive forces. Windu, Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin were all among the most powerful force users to ever exist. Windu himself absolutely shits on every other known Jedi master/Sith Lord for dueling.

It was the arrogance and pompous enforcing of rules that lead to the Jedi downfall, not a lack of power.

but jedi were dum-dum so it weren't him fault he run frum friends n galaxy uwu

I didn't say they did Luke's character perfect but some parts where spot on. Honestly, the worst understanding of Luke by Rian was believing Luke wouldn't immediately rush to avenge Han once he found out about his death.

The prequels were showing a driving force in galactic civilization becoming nothing but confused pawns in someone else’s game. That’s a decline. That’s also referencing Julius Caesar.

>A Lord Sith tell you that another Lord Sith is controlling all of you
>believing Lord Sith
yeah these are know for be so trustworthy you and this retard can't wraps the difference between the knowledge you have for being the fucking spectator vs the character knowledge

What are you doing in this thread?

>at the cost of EVERYTHING for non central systems.
The Sepratists were literally enslaving people if they disagreed with them.
>So in Clone Wars they either go somewhere for the sake of Political favors for the Republic, or go to planets that might take a side in the Clone Wars
You're point being...what?
>But they generally achieve very little
You're in some sort of semantic feedback loop, you realize that right? The argument you keep trying to make is that they didn't have any real political power, which is fucking nonsense. Whether or not they did anything of value isn't the point.
>they had few resources
They had a literal mandate to churn out clones faster you fucking retard.
>but in Dune...
who's even talking about Dune?
>muh samefag
you make bad arguments, sorry.

Imagine if all the people on Yea Forums who didn’t give a shit about Star Wars posted as much in these moronic threads.

Yoda's entire fame comes from being "the best at using the Force and being cognizant to the powers of the Dark Side", it's the single ONLY mission statement they have and Yoda can't even do it?

Gee, it's almost like George had to make Yoda stupid for the plot to even happen, huh?

No, if you don't care about Star Wars, why did you contribute to the thread? That doesn't make sense. Why not just ignore it if you don't care, like most people do with things they don't care about?

>Yoda is literally in the same room as Sheev
>can't even sense that something is off
>flashback to Empire: Vader can sense Luke hundreds of miles away in space
>flashforward to TLJ: Snoke reaches halfway across the galaxy to sense Rey
It's bad writing. Just admit it.

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is literally good triumphing over evil.

>Massive political power
Watch the Clone Wars TV show. Their ability to project their power is poor.
>Admiration of the public
?????
????
???
??
?
At most their reputation preceded them.

>They had the military knowledge to be immediately put as generals for massive forces.
After losing most of their significant seniors to some random battle droids to stage a rescue operation, due lacking a army.
And then they lead a Sith army in proxy until Palpatine gets his way.

Dune is a good comparison since:
1. Its Star Wars biggest influence
2. 1-3 intends a lot of political goals and commentary similar to Dune
3. Some factions in Dune has the galaxy by the balls. The Jedi gets destroyed while fumbling around like confused children in a multi level political game, similarly to how the house Harkonnen failed to grasp anything once the old Baron died.

Meanwhile in Star Wars Palpatine gets his Clone army, setup of the Trade federation to consolidate power, and he gets there.
Its not even a close race. Palpatine won the clone war by far more than a mere broadside of a barn. He even gets the apprentice he wanted
The Jedi might have peaked to fund the Republic, or to salvage it. But by the time of Anakin Skywalker its merely a hollow shell without any of the clout or political power needed to play 4D chess.

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Are you trying to make Dune pasta a thing or something?

>Dune is Star Wars biggest influence
kek, no it isn't. Not even remotely. Not even at all.

Why are you a insecure bitch user?
The entire point of 1-3+Clone Wars is that the Jedi lacked the clout and vigor to keep up with ONE MAN.

I see them fighting words
Without buzz or brawl.
Ye kindly, what is argument??
Inb4 you can't even argue against
>My father didn't fight in the Clone Wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

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>>My father didn't fight in the Clone Wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.
George has never once cited Dune. Nothing about the OT has anything to do with the themes in Dune. One line about spice freighters that may be a nod to the 1965 book, doesn't mean ANH has anything thematically to do with Dune. George cites the following
>Flash Grodon
>The Hidden Fortress
>Spaghetti Westerns
>WWII propaganda videos
>The Monomyth
>WWII documentaries
Not Dune...

I see you user.
You are a 3PO after all.
Ah
Hark

I find it stupid that this scene had that dialogue because it revisionists history.

The Jedi Order had 1000 years of peace and no wars thanks to their code. And also kept the peace by helping people. Only a small SMALL number of Jedi even left or turned dark. And everyone of them failed and died.

And no the jedi weren't heartless they cared about people and cared if somebody they knew died. They just didnt let themselves go into depression over it. And the whole "Love Attachments thing" was a double edged sword, you cam fuck but not in the romance sense because then your mind would get worped and turn to greed. Just look at Anakin.

And when you look at Anakin and Barriss Offee and Dooku they turned Becuase they litterally couldnt mentally live the live. (Space Autism).

Ultimately the Jedi did their best to help people in need. And their name got fucked over because of a war Senators, Bussiness Men and Sith Created. Notice how when the order 66 happened the people cheered then a few short years later the Empire was revealed Evil and the jedi were needed again.

And the Jedi didnt let Sidious rise on purpose, he got into a position they couldn't touch because EVERYONE was sucking his dick raw. Anyone that crossed him would be deemed a traitor. Just look at the CIS.

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I’m attempting to express to you the amount of people who don’t give a shit about this deader than dead franchise.

Then why are there always threads about it that get fuck tons of replies? It’s like when this board says they hate capeshit but Endgame released and the board was flooded with threads about it.

Because paid marketing.

great argument you got there.

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>both nu-Wars films have been on the highest grossing of all time list
>spin off shows, movies and video games
>two new park locations in World and Land
>"dead franchise"
Is this where you go "muh gorbillions of dollars in marketing"?

and all of that is failing

>Cliff might be a wife murderer.
>Rick is a straight up asshole.

Why wouldn't you mention the popularity of capeshit instead?

Only thing is failing is your boner retard. It's fucking disney they will take their money one way or another, all you can do is boycott them and continue shitting in your diapers.

He wasn't wrong. Say what you want about the Sith, at least they evolved during the 1000 years of peace, the Jedi refused to change with the times, and when the Sith came back with a new coat of paint, they were left completely unprepared
That's why Luke being raised by a family instead of just being being trained as a Jedi from birth was such a good idea - his unconventional principles ended up taking Vader and especially Sheev completely off guard

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>5 years with no sex or meaningful relationships with people

Haha can you imagine

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They’re clearly in a state where they’re hiding their losses and laundering money.

How in your retard brain is making billions of dollars, "failing"?

>based on literally nothing
That conspiracy theory is a big meme, they aren't "laundering" money.

>They’re clearly in a state where they’re hiding their losses
Buddy, Lion King, Endgame and the ten other Disney films have been top grossing all year.

palpatine was being honest when he said their arrogance blinded them

>Yoda even has the capacity for arrogance