I thought this episode was really good

this was better

youtube.com/watch?v=dmKzkZ8LCaY

I don't get what there is to hate about the story other than dumbass shit like said. you think it's attacking star trek fans? I saw it as a commentary on star wars fans / gamers. And even then I can't imagine feeling attacked by it. hero villains are fun.

It was a solid black mirror episode.
Neat technology
Reasons to actually care about the characters good and "bad"
Good pacing
Decent ending
No retarded humor

I dunno. Thinking back on season 4 now I wish I had bashed it less because my lord is it a much better product than Season 5.

The airlock scene was a little excessive. Like, we get that he's evil. That just felt like torture porn.

Its a guy obsessed with a Trek clone show, you think he's just introverted and trying to get the girl, but he ends up being a misogynist sadist type guy. Then people who bought normie-flix, or whatever network this is on, will watch this show and decide that's how all the fans are. I'm not dumb. Its like a Lt. Broccoli or Geordi story but with no hope. I had to turn it off.

the happy ending felt earned and was actually refreshing from the misery porn of earlier episodes

>there people here who to this day are still unable to fathom the idea that the AI in the game were completely sentient, identical replicas of their real life counterparts and so torturing them in the game was as if he was torturing them in real life

Still don't understand why he was considered the bad guy. He was just fucking with AI. The real life version of that women he liked broke into his house and ensured he would remain permanently brain dead for life because she didn't want some bikini photos put online.

>I had to turn it off
so you missed the end where the show actually embraces Star Trek type adventure and wonder

Yeah that was kinda the point though he was a gigantic doucheface in the virtual world and taking out his frustrations he was too beta to voice in real life. I admit having him die might have been a bit much but he still deserved everything else he got

>Daly wears red
I jej'd

It's written by someone famously known for using "yeah but its futuristic technology" as a huge crutch for bullshit to happen without needing an explanation. Hes been doing it the whole series.

Yea Forums tirelessly defended his every action when this came out, so apparently no, people didnt get it

the airlock scene was awesome lol

>literal NPCs kill the incel gamer
bravo brooker

Well it's really about where you draw the line. Some people see no issue with torturing AI, since that AI isn't real and therefore anything you do to it is just the programming that he coded running as intended. Others just think that a self-aware AI is basically human and see his actions as evil.

The guy never hurt ANYBODY.
All he did was run a private server.
Bitch literally put him in a coma, she should go to JAIL.

no one denies they're sentient. It's just that no one should give a fuck.

I sad an arkangel and Crocodile, but after the mess that was S5, season 4 wasn't so bad. At least it had enough episodes for their to be one or two stinkers and it not to matter that much overall.

actually fuck Arkangel still, great concept but completely fucked by Jodie Foster

that's because it was

Technically no real humans are being harmed, but it's still morally repugnant, which is the crux of the episode.

why do I feel like Hang the DJ is the lamest BM episode ever?

It was interesting, if only for the fact that it shows normies have a very twisted sense of justice. He tortured AIs and his punishment is to have his real conscious self float through empty space for all of eternity?? Pretty macabre.

The writers vanished up their own asses when they went to Netflix. I think Shut up and Dance is the exception that proves the rule.

>It was interesting, if only for the fact that it shows normies have a very twisted sense of justice
This is social engineering. In Game of Thrones a woman has a man eaten alive by his own dogs because he fucked her pretty hard on their wedding night.
She walks away smiling.

Oh come on. Ramsey was clearly mentally and physically torturing her constantly. The next scene she's in after the wedding night, she's lying in bed, black and blue and beat to shit. He flays alive the old woman who was helping her, then takes her to look at the corpse. He executes her brother via bow. Not to mention the other heinous shit he did before they got hitched.
>tortured Theon for an entire season, including cutting his dick off
>kills for sport, including his own lovers and sworn men
>feeds alive his step-mother and newborn half brother to his dogs
He deserved far worse than getting eaten alive by his own hounds.

>Oh come on.
There is nothing he could have done that would warrant a woman laughing at him while dogs eat him alive. Nothing. You are proving user right, you have a very fucked up and twisted morality.

In another scene in Game of Thrones a woman watches a brown skinned man get burned alive. As he is burning his brother pisses his pants and begs for mercy. The woman stands there laughing at him. iirc the crime of the brown people who are burnt alive and tortured was that they lived in the same city as people who kept slaves.

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>It's just that no one should give a fuck.
Well, who cares if anyone else did. The only people who needed to give a fuck were those being tortured and enslaved.

>could not see even with the show making it more than clear that she was abused day in and day out by Ramsey
I...don't even know where to begin with you, you might actually be too stupid to be able to have a conversation with

>Caring about the """lives""" AI
Why does he keep doing this? San Junipero; Hang the DJ; Black Museum.
You can tell he's an Atheist; their autism can't comprehend what a soul is.
>OI WHAT IF YOU DOWNLOADED YOURSELF ONTO A COMPUTER

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>literally a rehash of an episode they've already done

I stopped watching this shit show after that

Attached: 1356631612085.png (250x250, 89K)

>sentient version of McPoyle
He was a computer game character; he was as sentient as Lara Croft is.

Damn Matt Damon got fat.

Blacked Mirror sucks. Literally the Twilight Zone for edgelords, women and gays.

They weren't people, they were literal NPC's. Very well developed AI. Nothing they felt or thought was real, it was all programmed. So who cares if they didn't like to get tortured? That dislike of pain was just because they were programmed that way. He could've just changed their programming so that they all loved getting fucked with.

So again, who cares what they 'think'?

>loner loser lusting over colleagues creates clones in a world he has full control over
>isn't fucking them all within an inch of their lives every time he logs in

Immersion ruined. I didn't need to see it, but implying would be enough. Fucking dumb episode. Let's not even mention the fact that he needs a mcguffin and can't just pull up a dev console in his HUD at any point.

>Nothing they felt or thought was real, it was all programmed.
Doesn't matter, it was real to them. They could feel and think just all the same as if they were out in the real world. There is no difference.

> So who cares if they didn't like to get tortured?
They do, because they could feel it.
>He could've just changed their programming so that they all loved getting fucked with.
And yet he didn't, becasue that would remove his ability to run power players and lord over them in the game. He specifically DIDN'T do this bnecause he wanted them to feel and experience everything he did to them.

>So again, who cares what they 'think'?
Again, they do.

None of it was real. They just emulated consciousnesses very well, but they weren't actually consciousness or sentient in any meaningful capacity. It was 'real' to them because they'd been programmed to react to things as a normal person would.
If a video game character gets mad that you steal from them in Skyrim, that's just a programmed response to the players action of theft...the AI in his world just do that on a more advanced level.

There's no reason to care, they aren't real and by just changing a few lines of code they could look and behave completely differently.

What's your point? That the AI had a right to care? Sure. But I don't think anyone cares about that. The episode was divisive because of the fact that he was murdered for fucking with some 1's and 0's.
>There is no difference.
Sure, no difference whatsoever other than the minor fact that they're not real. The fact that he got so much pleasure from torturing them made him a bit of a dick, but you don't get to be murdered for that.

>None of it was real.
They still felt everything as if it was. So it's still being tortured. They could try and shrug it off and whisper "it's not real, it's not real" to themlsemves over and over, but it wouldn't make it feel any less so.

>or sentient in any meaningful capacity.
They were though, otherwise it wouldn't have been an issues. If they couldn't feel everything as if they were just the same in the real world being tortured, you're right, it wouldn't have mattered. Unfortunately, for you, and them, that wasn't that case

> It was 'real' to them because they'd been programmed to react to things as a normal person would.
I know. Thanks for helping my point and adding nothing to yours.

>If a video game character gets mad that you steal from them in Skyrim, that's just a programmed response to the players action of theft.
Characters in current day video games are programmed 1's and 0's. The characters in the episode are too, with the addition of having their entie essence uploaded to the game with them. It's sci-fi, it's a fictional nion-existent game. But the episode very clearly establishes with in this fiction that people uploaded into the game through DNA are direct replicas of their real life counter part, down to and including the abiliy to feel pain and have genuine emotions.

>There's no reason to care, they aren't real and by just changing a few lines of code they could look and behave completely differently.
There's lots, actually. They are being tortured and are locked in a virtual world, but with all the feelings and emotions of being in a real one. Sure a few lines of codes could have changed it, but that didn't happen anywhere in the episode, so.

>but they weren't actually consciousness or sentient in any meaningful capacity
they were as conscious and sentient in a capacity as real as you were. All the responses you think you consciously have are really no different than any other chemical reaction. Yet you presumably believe in morality. Or do you believe the brain ignores the laws of physics?

>What's your point?
What's yours? The AI didn't have the right to care?
> But I don't think anyone cares about that
The...characters...in the story do.....
>The episode was divisive because of the fact that he was murdered for fucking with some 1's and 0's.
It p[robably wouldn't have mattered if they were just programs, in a tradtional sense, yeah, but again, it is established that they are indistiguishable physically and mentally from their human real world counterparts.

>Sure, no difference whatsoever other than the minor fact that they're not real.
The pain and anguish felt by them was 100% real. Otherwise the episode would have no point and he would be torturing things with no emotions, feelings, pain tolerence or values. That wasn't the case, though.

> The fact that he got so much pleasure from torturing them made him a bit of a dick, but you don't get to be murdered for that.
Yeah he was a giant dick. Deserving to be murdered or not is debatable, but the episode played out how it played out. I don't necessarily agree that he should have died, but I'm not the writer.

What they felt wasn't real, it was just programmed responses to the players actions. They were just AI, no matter how advanced they may be, they are not real and nothing that happens to them is real, they don't feel anything, they just emulate feelings and thought very convincingly. They are literally 1's and 0's...just incredibly advanced.
Just because they mimic human behaviour and are able to emulate their real life equivalent doesn't mean that they are actual beings with conscious thought, they just do what he made them to do and react the way he made them to react.

Also
>including the abiliy to feel pain and have genuine emotions
That is just head canon.

It's just a shit-tier, plebby version of the exact same premise from pic related, a truly great episode.

Attached: Black Mirror White Christmas.jpg (633x356, 28K)

>They were just as real as real people
This is what atheists ACTUALLY believe

>What's yours? The AI didn't have the right to care?
You keep talking about the AI's response and other irrelevant shit that no one is talking or cares about. The episode blew up here when it was first released because of people arguing whether it was a good ending or not. My point was that it obviously wasn't. Your point about the feelings of fictional AI is...irrelevant at best?
>The...characters...in the story do.....
By anyone I meant real people. Not even "real" people in the episode, actual people discussing the episode. You're arguing an irrelevant point
> it is established that they are indistiguishable physically and mentally from their human real world counterparts
Really? Who's the last person you know of that was repeatedly thrown out of an airlock in space? What an idiotic statement.
>Deserving to be murdered or not is debatable, but the episode played out how it played out
What the fuck? That's the entire point of the episode and (supposedly) the show. The post-episode debate on the consequences of technology. Are you autistic?
>but i'm not the writer
But I guarantee you the writer's intention was for the ending to cause debate

>they mimic human behaviour and are able to emulate their real life
You're begging the question. You haven't proven that human behavior is any different than that of the AI. Again, do you believe the brain supercedes the laws of physics? Is there something special about meat. My point is that IF there is anything wrong with torturing humans, THEN it is potentially just as bad as doing it to AI. Or you can reject morality, but you can't have it both ways.

Post pics of your god getting a bukkake facial

If anything it was true to the spirit of Trek.

>You keep talking about the AI's response and other irrelevant shit that no one is talking or cares about.
I'm directly responding to the points being presented and you jumped in out of nowhere to try and say I'm not doing that. Okie dokie bro.
> The episode blew up here when it was first released because of people arguing whether it was a good ending or not
Yeah and from what recall most people sided with the torturer. Which can be argued, but you either have to accept what he was doing was fucked up or think it doesn't matter because 'but they weren't real'. Things that are, apparently, as you can see, pretty fucking debatable.

>By anyone I meant real people. Not even "real" people in the episode, actual people discussing the episode
I cared about the characters because they still had the capacity to feel. The had the capacity to know they were being caged and mistreated, because they could feel everything. The same way their normal irl counterparts could feel. It's weird you want to even discuss the episode when you're trying to argue that viewers shouldn't have gave a shit about the entire crux and driving plot point of the episode.

>Really?
Yes, "really". This is established. Maybe watch the episode and pay attention. What's idiotic is thinking they didn't feel anything because they were just programs. But if that were the case, none of the torturing done to them would have mattered. Obviously, and clearly, they can feel. just like their real life counterparts would be able to.

>What the fuck? That's the entire point of the episode and (supposedly) the show. The post-episode debate on the consequences of technology. Are you autistic?
I just said it's something that can be debated. I just said it's something up in the air, I just said it's something that people may have different views on. That would fall into post-episode discussion. What do you think is going on right now? I'm autistic, said the guy who can't read and fucking comprehend.
Someone could say he deserved it and give reasons why. Others can say he didn't and give reasons why. These are things that happened after the episode was released.

>But I guarantee you the writer's intention was for the ending to cause debate
I dunno nigga, the debate is fine but it kind of seems like they wanted it to be clear cut "good guys vs bad" and to think he got what he deserved. It played out like a positive, uplifting happy ending for the protagonists. Maybe you are right, but that might be giving nu-brooker too much credit.

>they were literal NPC's. Very well developed AI. Nothing they felt or thought was real, it was all programmed.
None of that matters if the characters can't tell the difference. Which they obviously couldn't, otherwise then why would they give a shit about being tortured?

>My point is that IF there is anything wrong with torturing humans, THEN it is potentially just as bad as doing it to AI
Fucking how though? AI =/= human being. There is a pretty large fucking difference. Are you denying that?

Yeah you can. One is real and feels things and the other is 1's and 0's that is programmed to emulate feeling things, there isn't much more to it than that. An AI is not a person.

They gave a shit because they had been programmed to give a shit. Did they give a shit the same way a real person gives a shit? I'd so no, because they are incapable of feeling genuine emotion, they just emulate human reactions to stimuli, they don't actually feel anything.

>They gave a shit because they had been programmed to give a shit
And?
>Did they give a shit the same way a real person gives a shit?
Their reacitons to the torture and being trapped inside a game like a caged animal seemed fairly genuine from what I could gather, so I'd say yes.
>they don't actually feel anything.
That's not what the episode conveyed to me. Again if they didn't feel anything why would they actually give a shit about being tortured. If they didn't feel anything, why would they care about being trapped.

This is going in circles.
Everything they do is because they are programmed to do those things. They care about being trapped because he made them care about being trapped, but that 'care' isn't the same thing a person would experience, it is just 1's and 0's that make them emulate the experience of caring about being trapped.
They are computer programmes at the end of the day, computer programmes that are able to emulate human interaction and behaviours on an incredibly advanced level, but at the end of the day they are just doing what he made them to do.
When you shoot an NPC in a game, he screams and may say that he's in pain, but he's not in REAL pain...he's just emulating that experience, they are just doing that but on a more advanced level.
This is just the exhaustive "But Why?" technique. No matter what you say, I can just say "Because they are programmed to behave that way", and since the episode flat out tells us he coded and created the game then I'm correct.

The question is essentially "Is it right to torture something that cannot feel but can emulate feelings flawlessly".

Like a person feeling pain is any different?
People are programmed just as much

Pain is a physical reaction to something. If I am stabbed a physical reaction takes place in my body that causes me to feel pain. An AI lacks that capacity, they can only emulate the motions of being in pain, they are literally incapable of feeling it the way I can. They also lack free will, another human trait.

But you yourself are just 'emulating the motions' of how we've evolved to react
Pain isn't a physical thing, it's just your brain creating a sensation to signify that you need to move away from whatever stimulus is harming you.
If you scream it's because you instinctively act to alert people around you to danger.

>The question is essentially "Is it right to torture something that cannot feel but can emulate feelings flawlessly".
And you would argue "yes, because it's just 1's and 0's" right?

I'm not emulating anything, I am in actual pain. The chemical reaction taking place in my body is a physical occurrence.

Yes.

I have to say this in every single thread about this episode.

People end up arguing whether they'd be sentient if you did this in real life, ignoring that all that matters is whether we're intended to take them to be so in this fictional story. You may as well argue that there they don't actually travel back in time in Back to the Future based on arguements against time travel being possible in the real world.

That's basically the crux of the issue however. Are they actually sentient in the episode?
Nothing is stated either way and is a huge reason why this episode is debated so much. There's no story or interest if the episode just went "Yeah for all intents and purposes these AI's are basically human but, like, in a game". Where's the point in writing an episode about a guy that is obviously torturing fully sentient people?

It's Black Mirror at the end of the day, the episode is basically playing on how people see morality.

You're doing exactly what you're programmed to do. Computers have a physical component too in the hardware

I feel like you're just been wilfully obtuse at this point.

The problem is that you're applying a sense of consciousness to it. There is no consciousness there, thus it's irrelevant if the emulate the feeling of pain or not. It's a simulation of people, nothing more.

You just don't understand your own bodily functions. Instinct = programming
Unless you're an unironic religious nut there's no argument to be made for simulated consciousness not being 'legitimate' consciousness.

That analogy doesn't quite work because for a computer program to be written there has to be a programmer. There is no programmer for us.

>No matter what you say, I can just say "Because they are programmed to behave that way",
Sure I guess, if you want to stifle any actual discussion, which is to say, why even carry on replying to people if you can just say that and be done with it? The truth of the matter is they had free will of some capacity, because they were revolting against what the man who could literally control everything could do. They made the conscious choice to try to 'escape' and 'beat' their captor. But I guess that doesn't matter, because they we're "programmed to fight against him" right? that's totally what he wanted. Disobedience. By your logic here.

>they are just doing that but on a more advanced level.
Yeah, an advanced enough level that causes them to feel the same sensations as if they were living and breathing. I guess we really are going in circles, because we keep coming back to this main point. It's a fictional sci-fi show with a program capable of uploading a persons body and consciousness into a game as a "copy" of their real world counterpart, but tell us more about how it's "just skyrim bro"

Yeah the episode also flat out tells us they are capable of feeling pain, have consciousness, have empathy and ability to. It's all conveyed through what the characters do and say in the episode. It's all clear when the characters are aware of being trapped. etc. Why did you even have any interest in it if you didn't think anything that happened to the central characters mattered, or if you didn't think there was a valid reason for the audience to care?

You're right, all this worthless stuff was probably put inside us by the devil to test our faith or something

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but consciousness is said to be an emergent property of a sufficiently advanced enough biological system. There's zero evidence supporting that consciousness would just "arise" in an advanced computer simulation.

I don't get what exactly you're trying to argue.

I guess the entire episode didn't really matter and was shit then. The entire reason anyone cares for the characters is because in this fictional episode in the fictional futuristic world there exists a program capable of uploading a copy of peoples bodies and consciousness into a game. The "simulated people" cared about being trapped and oppressed in a digital world. To try to argue they didn't is just asinine to me, it's literally what the episode is about.

>Yes.
Oh, okay. well I disagree.

I'm not arguing that they didn't care, I'm arguing that their "care" was simulated and not real, much like how when you punch an npc in a game they have "care" script that then runs. It's like if you take the "you" thats the emergent property of your biological brain, and remove it. That's them.

I don't think the framing of the story leaves much room for doubt.

It never raises the question of whether they're sentient. It presents them no different to all the genuine humans, and never once even mentions the possibility that they might not be conscious.

It follows their viewpoints. Most of the story is told from the perspective of one of them. We're led, in the most direct cinematic and storytelling language, to identify with this copy as fully and without reservation as we do the main character in any movie. Every thing about the text is built on the audience reflexively assuming that's a real, conscious mind in this situation. And this is something that might happen at first in a story exploring questions on the nature of consciousness, but its not 'at first'. There's no twist. It plays out like any story about real people with no suggestion that they might be psychologically anything other than that.

We are literally programmed to act a certain way in response to certain stimuli. It's no different to a computer being programmed to do the same thing, we just happen to be more complex than our current level of technology.

Considering this is science fiction, if the universe the story is set has the computing power to fully simulate the entire human brain function, then it's indistinguishable from a real human

No, you're just being obtuse for the sake of your argument. You know fully well that a motherboard and wiring isn't the same as a human body, but you decided to make the connection anyway. You also know that a chemical reaction in the brain caused by evolution as a response to stimuli is different to someone writing a line of code.

They rebelled because he allowed them to behave exactly as their real life counterparts would. He just became overconfident in his ability to control them, since he had done so successfully until that point. He could've just walked in one day and made them all behave like dogs...he just didn't.

You have no evidence that they actually feel anything in the same capacity as humans do, that's just head canon. The episode deliberately doesn't tell us. Characters even have this same argument in the BM universe, so clearly it's down to personal beliefs on if they can feel the way a person does.

As I said above, this same debate even occurs in the BM universe. I think the line used is "Just lines of code" or something similar. It's clear that us as the viewer aren't supposed to know 100% and are given the option of deciding on it depending on how we personally feel about the issue.

It made no sense to me that he made them unfuckable.

>I'm arguing that their "care" was simulated and not real, much like how when you punch an npc in a game they have "care" script that then runs
But you do the exact same thing. If you get punched in the face your arms will raise to protect yourself. That's not because you've carefully considered it as the best course of action. It's because the 'protect head' script in your brain is running after millions of years of ancestors learned that getting their skull bashed in is a bad thing.

>You know fully well that a motherboard and wiring isn't the same as a human body, but you decided to make the connection anyway. You also know that a chemical reaction in the brain caused by evolution as a response to stimuli is different to someone writing a line of code.
>I'm just gonna assert things as fact without stating why they're different in hopes I don't get called out

This show must be really overrated because I only watched the 2-3 episodes that everybody mentions and thought it was shit. I mean, it does make you think a bit so it has some merit but pretty much everything is bad.

>there people here who to this day are still unable to fathom the idea that the AI in the game were completely sentient
I thought the episode conveyed this fairly blunt and obviously, but apparently there are still people who don't believe this was the case, over a year and a half later.

So...here we are.

As I said before, you're just being deliberately obtuse. Little point in continuing this.

Twilight Zone is Twilight Zone for edgelords.
But yeah BM is overrated as hell. The episodes are largely hit or miss, which has been true since before Netflix bought it, though people like to pretend it as all kino up to that point, but it was still mediocre.

no ur being obtuse
wow look how easy it is to call people obtuse instead of making a real point

>We are literally programmed to act a certain way in response to certain stimuli.

Again that analogy doesn't work, because there is no programmer that coded us. But anyway, the difference is that a computer program that's programmed to react negatively to certain stimuli will always react the same to that stimuli. I can put myself in extremely uncomfortable situations that an AI would automatically recoil from, because it is programmed to do so, while I can consciously go against that programming, and stay in that uncomfortable situation as long as "i" want. This is due to the emergent property of consciousness which can override any programming. In order to show that they're nothing more than a simulation, you'd have to show that they have developed that emergent property of consciousness.

The thing though is that you can indeed program a simulation of consciousness as well even with something like a random number generator where 99/100 times they don't keep their hand in a fire but 1/100 times, they do.

That was the WHOLE point of the episode, Christfag.

>Again that analogy doesn't work, because there is no programmer that coded us
Where do you think DNA came from?

I watched the first 4 episodes of this show and thought it was meh. 1st and 4th were just straight dumb and bad, the one about the memory implant thing was funny because MC was right yet the show tried to frame him as wrong, and the one about the bikes and porn and stuff was alright.
Anyways, is it worth continuing?

I think I kinda agree with you. Sansa walking away, smiling, killed the character to me. She didn't learn anything from her torture in the hands of Ramsay, except for his cruelty.

shut up and dance is by far the best episode

RNA

>You have no evidence that they actually feel anything in the same capacity as humans do, that's just head canon.
It's not though. It's conveyed to me through the actions and what the characters say, think, and feel. It's converyed to me through theior discussins when the game is "shut down", and conveyed when they are tourtured in serveral different ways and when it's revealed to us the tortures other characters experience before our main one we follow was uploaded into the game.

If you want to be an arrogant dick, and assert that none of that means they felt anything, that's fine, but i'm going to diasgree, call you an idiot, and tell you you're wrong because it was clear as day to me. It's in the episode, right in front of you. Not head canon.

> so clearly it's down to personal beliefs on if they can feel the way a person does.
Well okay, then I don't agree with your assessment on it. If you're capable of respecting that, you might not be a complete shithead. Otherwise, you are trying to minimize an argument nad invalidate it because it doesn't coincide with your persona beliefs. It goes both ways buddy.

It's entirely christfags and people larping as christfags who believe that they, and they alone, possess souls that somehow validates them

>out of arguments and valid points: The post.
I love when someone blows out whiny redit children and they get mad because someone doesn't agree with their retarded backwards logic lol

>It's not though. It's conveyed to me through the actions and what the characters say, think, and feel. It's converyed to me through theior discussins when the game is "shut down", and conveyed when they are tourtured in serveral different ways and when it's revealed to us the tortures other characters experience before our main one we follow was uploaded into the game.

I can program a small game within a few weeks that would simulate characters having conversations, making decisions, "feeling" pain, having esoteric discussions. Are they real to you then because of that?

Nigga should have just fired up The Sims lmao

No. Also that doesn't happen in the episode, so why even bring up the hypothetical?
The concept of them having some semblance of free will is obvious, or they wouldn't have tried to rebel in any capacity. They were free to walk around, have drinks, lament about not being able to have sex, discuss the fact they are trapped and being controlled, form full and complete plans for attempted escape

Anyway, you already agreed they possess this:
>They rebelled because he allowed them to behave exactly as their real life counterparts would.
i.e. allowed them to think and act independtly of the written programming. Unless again, you are going to try and say he programmed them to do this (spoilers: very unlikely scenario he's sabotage himself that hard intentionally)

> the one about the memory implant thing was funny because MC was right yet the show tried to frame him as wrong

Uh, what the fuck episode are you talking about

The Entire History of You
He missed the point of the episode hard

You said

>>It's not though. It's conveyed to me through the actions and what the characters say, think, and feel. It's converyed to me through theior discussins when the game is "shut down", and conveyed when they are tourtured in serveral different ways and when it's revealed to us the tortures other characters experience before our main one we follow was uploaded into the game.

And so if I took a few weeks to program a game that had the characters convey the same types actions and emotion, would you believe that they aren't simulations?

I have a feeling that if the game and characters looked like pic related then you'd be less open to the idea that they were truly sentient and conscious.

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