Whiplash

Probably. But he could also sue him for assault for slapping him in the face repeatedly or making him play until his hands bled, and he didn't.

Post this on Yea Forums, you'll get your answers and a huge discussion about jazz

Doesn't even matter. The fact that Neiman couldn't tell if he was wrong was already seen as a flaw.

Sure but id rather recommend to watch the movie.

Maybe watch a movie first before watching clips from it?

I think if I posted this on Yea Forums they'd tell me to fuck off and go back to Yea Forums.

It's a great fucking movie, go watch it first.

This. He wanted to expose Neiman's lack of confidence and knowledge in his own playing.

I never understood this kind of musicianship. I play bass which isn't nearly as intensive,, but you get really diminishing returns with that kind of performance because most people don't understand or really enjoy that type of jazz. If I play a show that just rock covers, I get to have fun playing and the people get to have fun listening, this just seems like working your ass off for something no one will appreciate except other musicians.

Attached: 1392293591060.png (299x200, 14K)

>Are you Russian, or are you Dragon?

holy. . . monkaS

And also humiliate him and beat him down by exposing his family history in front of the whole band. He's trying to "destroy him" to create something new in place.
The movie kind of addresses that, it treats high quality jazz as some arcane art that few people truly understand, and I think that's fine.

It's pretty much how the movie ends. Neiman ends fully confident in his ability to the point where Fletcher's threats don't even phase him anymore.

That goes completely against what this board stands for.

I am a drummer (not jazz but whatever) and I couldn't tell wether he rushed or dragged. If anything it looked pretty on point to me.

It's a bit like what happens in Black Swan. Most people can't tell a good performance from a god like performance. But it doesn't matter because it's about the performer's perception of what they're doing, dedicating every inch of their existence to being the best, even if no one else understands it.

I think it's sort of like classical music in the sense that there's probably a lot of prestige and money if you're in one of the really elite groups like the London Symphony Orchestra or something like that. Enough rich people patronize the art that it can keep going even if it's not widely popular.

This, there's a scene where the whole family is gushing about his cousin playing D3 football (for non-Americans, this is the lowest tier of college football) and dismisses what Andy is doing.

Well good. I dropped out of music theory because I just fucking hated what it turned music into for me. Playing bass I only really need to know what mode I want for each chord and articulating it properly with the beat, I don't even know how to read music. Whether that's a good or bad thing I have no idea, but it hasn't held me up in the slightest so far.

Sounds like a good decision if you want to actually have a job in the future if you ask me

I wonder how many poor fuckers enrolled in music school after seeing Whiplash

Are we human, or are we dancer.....

I remember when this came out how many fucking retards claimed the movie was fascist because of how demanding Fletcher was. To this day I still don't get how they made the logical leap.

thanks, that was a cool video. I had guessed that there were a lot of things that they got wrong - most of all the competition/blood. But he's smart enough to take a step back and realize that was the point of the movie - competition, not jazz.

Especially considering Fletcher is essentially the villain of the story.

Well obviously in real life he gets arrested for assault but fascism is a fucking leap. Could you imagine if he hit someone in the head with that fucking chair.

What got their brains confused is that he was ultimately proven right, so the "fascist" message seemed promoted.

I think if you post this on Yea Forums they'll call you a boomer dadrock loving faggot and go back to their kpop circlejerks.

He got proven right but the end result is not a good one. He managed to make Neiman into a "legendary drummer" but his story is not going to have a good ending. He lost his girlfriend, turned his back on his dad and his connection to his old relationships in favor of Fletcher and his tyranny. If you actually read interviews about the movie, the intent is that Neiman does not have a happy ending, he's probably gonna overdose like Fletcher's last student. So yeah, Fletcher was right, proving the allure and power of fascism, if that is the comparison, but the end result is ruin and suffering.

>I don't even know how to read music
>lol I just start reading tabs and play it parties because it gives me mad pussy lol
Why are so many guitarists like this? They teach you basic shit like FACE and Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit in fucking primary school music classes.

Dont you want to be dragging

“I’m dragging”
-me playing a drum set

Jazz is high art. The J-pop crap you listen to is souless fast food garbage.

I started crying in the middle of this scene because Simmons' character was extremely reminiscent of my dad, except he wanted me to be good at baseball instead of jazz and I was an unathletic loser

Hell, Neiman even says early in the movie that he wants to die drunk and high in his 30s like Charlie Parker did

I don't read tabs faggot, I read lead sheets.

Attached: 1391033087981.png (150x190, 32K)

Baseball is so fucking gay user

Learn bass fishing or something cool

Someone redo this clip with Spider-man on the drums.

Attached: spidey06 py.jpg (1900x1430, 228K)

Same
>6am practice sessions, getting screamed at for missing my spot
Still he never threw a fucking chair at me

A lot of people seem to think this is a movie about jazz specifically and don't get that it applies to any competitive act, even athletics like that. It's surprising how much some people focus on only the drumming aspect of it.

They'd ignore the OP, say something about Oasis, then jerk off about Radiohead for two hours. Yea Forums is the very last place you should go to discuss music.

I feel bad for Fletcher, he just wants improvement.

Bach is high art. Jazz is for niggers.

How is it surprising when more than half of people have an IQ below 100?

Jazz musician here, yes he was, but only incredibly slightly. Like if I hadn't been looking out for it I wouldn't have noticed.

I mean those are the people who will try to see this movie as just another "inspiring" sports movie about taking it to the limit rather than a meditation on what the ends of making good art/doing well at what you do are.

I don't really see how the ending is bad. The story isn't absolutely black and white. It shows how much he sacrificed for it and doesn't hide how unhealthy it was, but in the end all the pain and the autism pay off and he gets really good, that's what he wanted. Nothing about the end implies he'll die miserably unless you absolutely want to find some foreshadowing in the dinner scene. The climax isn't about him getting a good life but that singular moment in which both of them realize that he broke that limit that makes the difference between a good drummer and the one with the potential to be legendary.

Yes. And more importantly, he was panicking under pressure. That’s just as important as the tempo.

He looks like jeff bez0s

>Nothing about the end implies he'll die miserably unless you absolutely want to find some foreshadowing in the dinner scene
He starts out as a bit of an arrogant dick and only gets worse the more time he spends with Fletcher, I think the implication of the ending is that he's going back to that. Especially when he tries to get back with Nicole and finds she moved on pretty much immediately. He threw away his personal relationships so he could be what Fletcher was trying to turn him into.

Are there any movies like this except the beaten down student snaps and kills or otherwise fucks up the cruel teacher?

What other movies are there about pushing for perfection / about music, but still appreciated by a Lehman?

I really like Armadeus, showing a different side of the spectrum, where Salieri can appreciate Mozart but can't reach his brilliance.

>Armadeus
Is that the one where Mozart recruits a team of musicians to blow up an asteroid?

Are we sneed or are we chuck

AMADEUS

What's funny about this is that real-life Salieri was arguably more brilliant than real-life Mozart.

I would have fucking dropped him as soon as he slapped me. I’ve been training in krav maga, he would have been on the ground in a split second.

I watched all the clips of the sopranos available on youtube in any language I could find. Watching movies and tv shows entirely is overrated you don't need that to get the plot.

Jazz is masturbatory garbage for tryhards that don't know how to make more out of less. I would much rather bang my head and have fun at a hardcore concert than stare at some tortured soul fiddle an instrument and pay more attention to how many different techniques he's using rather to how the piece makes me feel. Jazz makes me feel like dancing at best. The rest of the time it's self-congratulatory trash for elitist faggots who think they're better than others.

Kek and that made you cry? Jesus get your t-levels checked. It’s not your fathers fault he had a pussy nerd son who couldn’t handle a few grounders and base running before school.

based dad. he knew he had a loser son.

Well yeah? the movie never implies that what he was doing was easy nor borderline insane. The whole thing was about doing that extra mile to go beyond your limits and it isn't something everyone can do. Neiman was dishuman with his methods, but at least for the protagonist in the end they worked. but again, nothing implies he'll die a junkie.

Dunno, dude. But 90% of guitarists I know in real life are the "I figure it out by ear" type. It's just rare to see them study actual theory.

This. People waste so much damn time arguing about whether the jazz in this movie is over the top or not. To me, this is just a story about obsessing over your passion, it's as simple as that.

Some fuckhead tried to make fun of me by saying Whiplash is just a sports movie and I should watch some literal who youtuber who agrees with him, the fuck is wrong with people?

I know this is bait, but the exclusive focus on technical brilliance and/or constant intellectual masturbation at the expense of feelings is actually one of the main weaknesses of jazz music, especially nowadays.

While jazz is what you said, metal is just as bad if not worse.

Someone throws a char at you- you dodge, get up and fucking bury them. I don't give a fuck if he's a teacher, your father or God Almighty himself.

And here is the generic metalhead loser who's only idea of "criticism" of another genre is sad insults(because he doesn't actually listen to anything else, and they're only based on his sub 80IQ stereotypes), not even realizing that everyone thinks he's an embarrassment for listening to that shit past 18.

Attached: im-bout-to-just-start-staring-at-muhhfuckas-31690626.png (500x522, 129K)

If he fights back he gets kicked out though and there's no guarantee he ever gets a chance like this again. That's why Fletcher and other people like him can get away with being abusive towards their students, they know they hold all the cards.

Who gives a shit? In a situation like this you don't evaluate your future. You've been fucking attacked. You fight. And while you're at it, yell 'Am I rushing or am I dragging' as you're beating his fucking brains out with a cymbal.

of course there's plenty of powerful and abusive teachers, but you can be sure that none of them gets physical, because it's all stuff that can actually be easily proven
but it's a movie so whatever

>I don't even know how to read music
That's a bad thing.

>Plebs can't enjoy this
youtube.com/watch?v=qWG2dsXV5HI

I feel bad for you.

How could he tell if it was or wasn't his tempo, since jazz is just random jangling anyway?

This video shows the problem with most jazz, or at least the popular shit on NPR, in that they all sound like they are flinging shit to a wall to see what sticks. There is nothing identifiable with this that separates it from any other jazz piece other than the musician's name

based

Absolutely based

Its a sports movie with a music theme, of course actually playing music isn't a war like that.

Attached: costanza.jpg (5000x5000, 548K)

This movie was garbage.

Its just this.

Not even knowing if you fucked up is much worse than actually fucking up.

All jazz sounds the same

ooh you're hard

He just wanted to strike a black power pose

>pretty much on point

Not good enough for Fletcher, either you are on point or not.

I'm a professional musician, so whatever my opinion means to you, but Neeman was off tempo the whole time.
HOWEVER, it's such a small amount that if he were any better he may as well be a computer drum machine.

Small ensemble jazz is top tier and fun.
Big band jazz is lame.
Big band competitive university jazz is pure hell as whiplash showed

whats he greater abuse, him flipping out on them and breaking their spirit or him letting them dig their own grave with a talent they’ll never have, wasting years of their life and a shit ton of money? In making himself the bad guy, he saves them from themselves

also what he did to beecher wasnt ok. you cant just do that to people

Neither, the movie is complete horseshit. NY musicians may be elitist hipster faggots but being a great drummer doesn't mean you need to hit a drum so hard and fast that your fucking hands start bleeding. It's exaggerated nonsense, but it's entertaining nonsense.

Are most drummers usually off tempo like this but the average person just can't tell?

Threads on Yea Forums get like 4 replies unless you're talking about k-pop

In more common genres like rock, the drummers are a little more loose yeah.
The average person just doesn't possess the timing necessary to be perfect.

youtube.com/watch?v=QH52zX41uQg
post some good drummers

Well he did drive that one kid to suicide

Attached: 1520376807418.png (634x343, 188K)

this

Why do people think that musicianship boils down into the two camps of Theoryfags and Only Play By Ear Bois? A good musician should have no problem doing all of it. Brainlets will say "all the best musicians were self taught and couldn't read music", then drop out of their into to theory classes.

A well informed player should be able to do all of this. People who know theory, but can't play by ear or improvise are not evidence of Theory being a problem. They're just bad musicians.

>so whatever my opinion means to you
absolutely nothing lmao; go back to college and get a real degree

>all the best musicians were self taught and couldn't read music
yeah some started like that but they all learned some theory at some point

Devo’s original drummer David Kendrick was nicknamed the human metronome
youtu.be/zZNgKHOdfQA

Jazz is the greatest form of artistic expression desu

Scott Rockenfield is about as good as it gets.
Also checked.

Lmao I majored in econ but things worked out differently than planned.

Neither. Fletcher singled him out and broke him down with criticism in order to see if he has the will to continue to play no matter what. It’s also establishing for Neiman that Fletcher will only accept perfection.

Exactly. Also if you have any illusions if becoming a highly successful professional musician, you better learn to read. Imagine being 1 of thousands of studio horn players in LA, showing up to a session, and not being able to play the part they gave you. You would 100% get fired and they would hand the part to another guy in the lobby who can read.

Saw this last night and I loved it, how is Black Swan bros?

Whiplash is basically Black Swan which is Red Shoes

They all got applause and died in the end.

Idk, I've only seen the Natalie Portman/Mila Kunis lesbian sex scene on /gif/

It's always fun to see music conservatory fucks lose their shit 'cause an illiterate schmuck mopes the floor with them on guitar.

Theory is all well and good, and being able to read and write music makes things a thousand times easier for you if you want to get into writing your own stuff, but having the ability to get things out of an instrument by ear and mastering it on your own without an orthodoxy, makes you do stuff with those instruments that trained academicists will never be able to do simply because it breaks how they perceive the instrument.

Umm probably none considering how much of a cutthroat slog it was portrayed as? The guy couldn’t even go on dates because of his school for Christ’s sake

You have no idea how correct you actually are.
Don't let anyone here tell you that you're wrong.

The point is that at the highest level of professional music, you need to be able to be perfect. If you're a couple cents flat, you're going to be fired. Dragging? Fired. 5 minutes late? Fired and never being hired by any of the directors friends again.

Even though this is fictional, many school ensembles try to drill this hard into students during their education so that they don't need to learn it later in life. From what I've heard, in the past teachers would get this abusive, but obviously can't do shit like throw erasers and make people cry without getting into trouble anymore.

That's because the conservatory schmucks haven't practiced enough and are worse players, not because they know theory desu

Whiplash copied The Wrestler's ending 1:1

You're partly right, but it's also because they are taught with a particular method in a particular way. I'm not saying that knowing theory makes them worse, quite the contrary, but self-taught musicians tend to be more heterodox and eclectic, so they are flexible and tend to know better the practical ins and outs of their instruments.

Rigidity is only good if you want perfection on what's written on the sheet music.

He was very clearly off tempo the first few times, way behind the rest of the band, at least by a full eighth note. He did get closer to the beat, and then maybe the final few times he actually was on the beat but he was just fucking with him.

The thing is the conductor can change the tempo minutely, and if Neiman is off usually the conductor can work to get him back on the beat. Fletcher isn't doing that. He's not conducting at all. It's like throwing a kid in a pool with the lights off. If you're way off the beat, its really your own fault, but if you're off by a hair and the conductor isn't conducting there's really nothing you can do. The entire band will start going at a different tempo and you can be on the beat with the trumpets, but off with the saxophones.

whiplash fucking sucks and miles teller is an insufferable little faggot

No. You are operating under a confirmation bias. The 'self taught' musicians you see that are actually successful are a functionally non-existent part of the population of 'self taught' musicians. These individuals can be thought of as musical geniuses and are so much better than the average person that the huge disadvantage that comes from receiving no formal education isn't enough to make them worse than your average nobody with proper training. If these geniuses had the same amount of training/education they would be even better than they already are.

What you don't see is the literal millions of dumbasses who sound like total shit because they are 'self taught' but aren't natural prodigies.

you sound like an angry impotent band geek with no talent who wasted his time and money at music school lol

So western tonality being based in the same theory equates to being a rigid musician? What about atonality, jazz theory, and non-western harmony? What's so eclectic and open about people who are self taught? Surely the same traits can and are found in people who know their theory. Theory and analysis are fairly open and subjective at a high level anyway. Sounds like someone needs to eat their vegetables, user.

Which part of me is saying that learning musical theory, musical language or how to play an instrument "in the proper way" makes you worse in any way?
I'm just saying that rigidity and orthodoxy tend to be worse for musicians than flexibility and eclecticism. There's only so much you can get from musical schools, and it's only when you get to these autism-ridden big band competitions that you see musical school snobs out-autist each other about how on-tempo or off-tempo some of the players were and minute, subjective stuff like that. At the end of the day, only a computer generated beat can be 100% accurate, and that's fucking boring.
The best pianists and drummers know how to instinctively drag or rush to make their performance better, not worse.

a true musician's connection to their instrument is a livelong personal bond that has developed through a sea of different influences and experiences.

music school austists are basically tools. they can recite a pitch perfect recreation of the most intricate caprice, or even improvise perfectly over ever modal change in giant steps, but they won't ever have "it". they'll be stuck with their autistic clinical understanding of their instrument like a psychopath polician beading with a wife and kids.

why would you want to make art that appeals to normies?
normalfags have the absolute worst taste in everything imaginable, fuck them

lol i bet you fucked a trumpet

Playing behind the beat for effect and dragging when you need to keep time are different things.

>Yea Forums
>knowing anything about music
kek good one

>I am a drummer (not jazz but whatever)
You aren’t a very good drummer.

The institutionalization of jazz is largely a problem because of this. Kids learn to play accurately, but don't learn to create or Express. However, this is a reflection on the teacher and the institution and not on the Theory or skills of professionalism. There are elements of being a professional musician that have nothing to do with playing. Being well groomed, punctual, keeping a calendar, and being responsible/accountable are important. School helps with that.

Again, just because some or many music students don't have "it" (care to elaborate on what "it" is? Bonus points if you don't say "soul") does not mean that people who know theory can't also be exceptional players. A good musician should be able to do both. Are you surprised that students can't do it all? Look at any entry level psychology student and you'll also see over eager brainlets with no experience and cursory knowledge of the field.

Former band and jazz band geek here. He was actually way under tempo in the first couple of times Fletcher stopped him. And he came in with faggy fills that emphasized how under tempo he was. But when you're getting chewed out by a band director you go into a Fugue state and don't really understand what you're doing and just want him to go to another section so that probably freaked Newman out even more and Fletcher knew this.

based fellow band-fag

Not all jazz is free jazz trash

Based